Ya know whats kind of funny, and sad as well...?

[Joxer.6024]

Cruising each of the Class threads it seems there is a common factor. Pretty much everyone is not happy with pretty much EVERY new elite! That's just sad in the scheme of things. Granted there are a few that say they like it but even then it comes with a "but", or a "if only" attached. 

I mean of course we all want to the new toys to outshine the old, or what's the point of having them right? But I think folks are looking for a brand new Ferrari when just a good ol' solid 68' Camaro will do just fine, old school muscle and all, lol.

Honestly if one was to take what's been posted to heart then no one would buy EOD, and maybe if that point is seen by ANET they will fix many of the issues that people have mentioned. Problem is though many of the issues are personal playstyle ones, i.e. "It felt clunky, Its slow, It has no damage, It has no support", and on and on.

I say lets just wait and see what this next beta brings and hopefully ANET has listened (I think it was pointed out with Catalyst) and while we may not get the shiny  new car we wanted we just might get something that is lasting and fun?!

[Blocki.4931]

Or, consider this, people will whine no matter what because that is how it has always been since the dawn of time.

Never enough damage, never good enough synergies, no utility, "this weapon is useless", judging before we have seen everything, judging by first impression only, judging by what other people said and not even trying it themselves... Those are all too common.

 

[Dawanarth.4601]

I wasn't around during PoF, but when HoT came out everyone was angry about the Espec, but to this day some are still considered to be meta/fun to play

[Dadnir.5038]

The thing is that most elite specs felt "unpolished". Some specs weren't even working with core traits (there were even e-spec traits that felt like a copy of their existing core profession traits). Some introduce interesting mechanisms that feel abandoned at birth due to a focus of the spec in a different direction... etc.

It's like they drew rough drafts and didn't polished them before going for the final products.

Each e-spec is part of a profession, they don't need 3 new mechanisms with an heavy focus on a single 1 of these 3 (Polishing is to remove those mechanisms that are reindered irrelevant by lack of focus. It's the case for Vindicator which end up with a dual legend which is mechanically very interesting as the mechanism have the potential to be the main mechanism of the spec).

Similarly, you've got mechanisms that are expanded in a single direction lacking depth in use when thing could be easily tweaked to create this "depth" (It's the case with the Blight mechanism that you only accumulate without doing anything else with it. I mean, you just need to look at Holosmith heat that can be accumulated, vented and have dire consequences when you overheat, there is depth in this mechanism. Blight? You build it and it cap at 50%, that's all.)

Add to that mechanics that replace an existing mechanics yet don't inherit core trait effects (That's the case with Virtuoso).

Unbalanced drawback on traits (Willbender -> Gain 16% boon duration reduce outgoing boon duration by 50%)

E-spec with 2 traits dedicated to a single utility category when some of it's core utilities don't even have a trait (Harbinger)

E-spec that make a poor main mechanism even poorer (Untamed)

... Etc.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

Also add in the fact that the concepts themeselves sorta missed the mark for a lot of peoples mains. I believe the only specs that were sorta wanted in some way are the golemancer idea with mechanist and specter support thief. Mechanist though is probably going to be more popular with non engi mains as an easier way to play, and specter will finally give thief a new role outside of dps. But every other spec seems random.  Another melee bruiser ele spec with uneccessisarily convuluted mechanics that will more than likely just further complicate ele's roatiation to reach optimimal and acceptable dps? sure.. Vindicator, every time you use a skill it turns into another skill that you don't want, isn't that fun? Those are the two classes i'm most familiar with but I have zero idea what they were going for. Catalyst is a mess in what it's trying to do and vindicator keeps tyrying to focus on this ebb and flow design but in the worst way possible. Way too focused on the dodge and the dual legend design just isn't fun and has resulted in the most generic utilities skills.

[Mesket.5728]

5 hours ago, Joxer.6024 said:

I mean of course we all want to the new toys to outshine the old,

That's exactly what they did and exactly what was wrong. We dont want BS replacing berseker. We want a class that opens up OTHER gameplay than dps. They precisely replaced one soec with another in the most stupid way. (And for the parrots, zerk is both power and condi full dedicated dps build. And even so, condi and power ARE not different roles).

Edited November 22, 2021 by Mesket.5728

[Dawanarth.4601]

50 minutes ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

Vindicator, every time you use a skill it turns into another skill that you don't want, isn't that fun

...

Vindicator keeps tyrying to focus on this ebb and flow design but in the worst way possible. Way too focused on the dodge and the dual legend design just isn't fun and has resulted in the most generic utilities skills.

The idea behind Vindicator was not such a bad idea, the problem is that it's way too restricted via the F2 switch

The F2 should be split in 2 (F2/F3) and possibly given a F4 if needed:

F2: Switch all skills to Archemorus, give some boons depending on how many skill switched (Quickness) or reduce the cooldown depending on the number of switchs

F3: Switch all skill to St. Viktor, give some boons depending on how many skill switched  (Heal) or reduce the cooldown depending on the number of switchs

F4: Effect dependent on the Focused legend or something

F2 and F3 would remain the same when using another legend, just without the Switch

 

Dodge can remain the same, though if we loose the Energy meld, we go back to 2 dodge ?

[Dadnir.5038]

3 minutes ago, Mesket.5728 said:

Thats exactly what they did and exactmy what was wrong. We dont want BS replacing berseker. We wanr a clasd that opens up OTHER gameplay than dps. They precisely replaced one soec with another in the most stupid way.

To be fair Bladesworn and Berserker have vastly different gameplay as where berserker have a "nervous" gameplay, Bladesworn have a gameplay that require to be patient. That they seem to both focus on dps is most likely your perceived issue but in the end their gameplay don't appeal to the same public.

I would say that the real issue of both the Bladesworn and the Berserker is that they barely offer anything more than "DPS" in PvE. The warrior lack an e-spec that improve his ability to support other as so far It's been carried by banners, low amount of outgoing healing and it's might output. Yet, one could also argue that the warrior was in need of a dps spec as well, it's just that, this need answered, the role of the Berserker become questionable (It can still be used as a bannerslave support and an off-meta dps but is it fitting for something that's called "Berserker"?).

NB.: I hate every single part of Bladesworn's design, so don't misunderstand me as defending this spec. My point is that Berserker isn't in a good state and all this spec does is kick Berserker in the nuts.

[Mesket.5728]

55 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I would say that the real issue of both the Bladesworn and the Berserker is that they barely offer anything more than "DPS" in PvE. The warrior lack an e-spec that improve his ability to support other as so far It's been carried by banners, low amount of outgoing healing and it's might output.

A thousand times this. Warrior needed a spec that synergized with its banners and an improvement to berserker dps to better fit that role. This would've added real value and role options for warrior. Worst part is that they might actually do something with bladesworn and support in the form of ammo shouts which is the most horrendous, ridicule and immersion breaking mechanic I've seen. (technological and magical warrior that can scream like crazy, this is by far the worst espec warrior got so far).

[Dawanarth.4601]

Are the Bladesworn skills Mantra (Or Mantra like ?) I didn't get to play it in the betas

What if a Espec let you keep adrenaline and the Brust skills but you gain a secondary ability based on the weapon that act as a Supportive Burst ? Maybe the downside from core Warrior would be that the Burst can only go up to level 2, and that the Support Skill would only use 1 adrenaline segment. That way you can still be a good damager but you could also decide to lower your burst damage to heal/support your allies/yourself. If the Bladesworn doesn't have Mantra (Or Mantra like) skill; those would fit nicely with that sort of play, where you need to be reactive to the incoming danger to heal to an optimal point

[Joxer.6024]

its funny that all they did was give War a big ol gun and everyone's falling over themselves screaming about the damage!  

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, Joxer.6024 said:

Cruising each of the Class threads it seems there is a common factor. Pretty much everyone...

That's just appearance. I mean ... what is the alternative? Dozens of "hey good job" threads ... who's going to make those?

Edited November 22, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Joxer.6024 said:

its funny that all they did was give War a big ol gun and everyone's falling over themselves screaming about the damage!  

Because it is simultaneously too high in PvE, but too low in competitive.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[MrForz.1953]

5 hours ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

I believe the only specs that were sorta wanted in some way are the golemancer idea with mechanist

Nope. Missed the mark too. Golemancer has nothing to do with Engineering, infact that's why they had to make it "Jade Mech" to try to tie to it in some sense. It's only mostly praised because "big robot" and play pretend with asura characters. Oh well it's salvageable at least, there are things to do with it. Will just have to brace for the wave of engineer mains who somehow hate everything engineer related but that spec haha.

Edited November 22, 2021 by MrForz.1953

[Dawanarth.4601]

2 minutes ago, MrForz.1953 said:

Nope. Missed the mark too. Golemancer has nothing to do with Engineering, infact that's why they had to make it "Jade Mech" instead. Oh well it's salvageable, there are things to do. Will just have to brace for the wave of engineer mains who somehow hate everything engineer related but that spec haha.

I think it depend, the Golemancer was wanted a vocal group, but it was mostly the more causal/PvE player that were interested in it

[MrForz.1953]

2 minutes ago, Dawanarth.4601 said:

I think it depend, the Golemancer was wanted a vocal group, but it was mostly the more causal/PvE player that were interested in it

Yes, indeed. The fact still stands though, the concept isn't an engineering one by a mile, the authorities in that practice are led by Elementalists and Necromancers due to giving actual life in their constructs, with the pioneer in this domain being a psychic extraordinaire. Therefore Jade Tech was the key to tying the concept to Engineer, a lifeless technological feat; which created mixed results among many engineers: They didn't get "Golemancer" because it's as nonsensical as making a Samurai out of Thief, but they still do have to deal with that questionable AI spec.

 

Some would see it as a loss/loss, others will just play pretend, the rest will have to salvage it and hopefully come out with ideas that will keep them interested.

[Borked.6824]

On 11/22/2021 at 2:03 AM, Blocki.4931 said:

Or, consider this, people will whine no matter what because that is how it has always been since the dawn of time.

Never enough damage, never good enough synergies, no utility, "this weapon is useless", judging before we have seen everything, judging by first impression only, judging by what other people said and not even trying it themselves... Those are all too common.

 

I dunno about that.  I'd be one of the first to say the same, but the mostly positive response to Specter kind of topples that argument.  It's not a shining example of enhancement or even medial comparison to prior elite specs, but it means that people aren't just trying to poopoo everything because of a collective sour mood.  

What that DOES say though, is that any specs that aren't Specter, must truly be garbage, which, I guess affirms the OP's point.  So, yep. They all suck =D

[Vidit.7108]

Yeah there are a lot of negative posts on the profession forums. Some of it is warranted because there are I think some big flaws with the new especs. Then there are players who got really into another  idea for an espec and are disappointed it's not being implemented. Those people are really loud. 

Some of those people are also under the impression their specific idea for how the class should work is better than whatever the devs can come up with. I can say most of the time that it isn't better.

You'll also find people in the feedback thread who are not regular posters here that had good things to say about the especs and aren't in the 20th thread about a drastic rework of a thing that doesn't exist yet.

[Buran.3796]

On 11/22/2021 at 8:59 AM, Joxer.6024 said:

Cruising each of the Class threads it seems there is a common factor. Pretty much everyone is not happy with pretty much EVERY new elite! That's just sad in the scheme of things. Granted there are a few that say they like it but even then it comes with a "but", or a "if only" attached. 

 

   To be honest the PoF specs were not using recycled animations in 80% of their new weapon skills as happens now, and the mechanics of the PoF specs were really new and felt powerfull. 

   Being said that, not everything was shiny in PoF: Firebrand, Spellbreaker, Scourge, Holosmith.... felt amazing and were op, whereas Renegade was released with a weapon with bad skills which didn't work in uneven terrain and with the breakstun in the heal skill of Kalla, rendering the spec unusable in PvP/roaming. The Vindicator as a legend as useless as Kalla but we have learned to play Renegade with combinations of Shiro, Jalis and Mallyx and the greatsword works better than the short bow at its release, so it's not terrible, but not great. And since my other main outside Rev is Guard I cant but laugh at the Willbender...  

[Puck.3697]

On 11/22/2021 at 7:59 AM, Joxer.6024 said:

Cruising each of the Class threads it seems there is a common factor. Pretty much everyone is not happy with pretty much EVERY new elite! That's just sad in the scheme of things. Granted there are a few that say they like it but even then it comes with a "but", or a "if only" attached. 

you have to remember, the forums are for Negative feedback. not positive. a Happy player isnt going to come to the forums to say how happy they are. however a Unhappy player will because a Happy player isnt interested in change effectively.

its always been pretty negative effectively.

4 hours ago, Borked.6824 said:

dunno about that.  I'd be one of the first to say the same, but the mostly positive response to Specter kind of topples that argument.  It's not a shining example of enhancement or even medial comparison to prior elite specs, but it means that people aren't just trying to poopoo everything because of a collective sour mood.  

except lets break this down.

Spectre came out insanely overpowered. Its doing over 50k DPS And more.. Yah if its overpowered you see a Positive response lol. Most people are negative of the new Elites because they felt underpowered. Not because of their design in Most cases ofcourse theres a few which yah design wise are horrific.

People react positively if what they're playing is overpowered. we're all bias to our mains and we want our mains to be the Meta. thats the way it is.

if spectre comes back for 4th beta With only 30k DPS and starts getting outshined by Daredevil in SPVP Again. i assure you, The reactions will be far Less positive.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Dawanarth.4601]

I've seen thread against the Specter, in the Necromancer category

[HotDelirium.7984]

After they get balanced more I think people will warm up to them but I do see this inconsistency between the level of investment for each elite. As if different teams or devs worked on each elite. Just compare Virtuoso and Vindicator: virtuso has 1 new weapon but just for main for 3 new weapon skills and the new gimick of clones becoming daggers. There is some utility to the daggers but thats it for the spec. Vindicator gets one new interesting dodge, a greatsword with 5 new weapon skills and 2 sets of skills that flip after being used with the added bonus of the professional mechanic skill reflipping all the skills back. To make virtuoso of the same caliber they would need dagger for offhand too and maybe another gimmick in the traits like the dagger projectiles can't be blocked or reflected or they send your conditions to the enemies.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

36 minutes ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

After they get balanced more I think people will warm up to them but I do see this inconsistency between the level of investment for each elite. As if different teams or devs worked on each elite. Just compare Virtuoso and Vindicator: virtuso has 1 new weapon but just for main for 3 new weapon skills and the new gimick of clones becoming daggers. There is some utility to the daggers but thats it for the spec. Vindicator gets one new interesting dodge, a greatsword with 5 new weapon skills and 2 sets of skills that flip after being used with the added bonus of the professional mechanic skill reflipping all the skills back. To make virtuoso of the same caliber they would need dagger for offhand too and maybe another gimmick in the traits like the dagger projectiles can't be blocked or reflected or they send your conditions to the enemies.

 

Thing is that won't happen with the offhand. I would love for weapons of mainhand or offhand to be copied on it's missing part. It would help a lot of old and new builds if it duplicated, but they would have done that by now with old weapons if they really wanted that. I would really love dual pistols on harbi, but I know it is just a pipe dream.

[HotDelirium.7984]

27 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

 

Thing is that won't happen with the offhand. I would love for weapons of mainhand or offhand to be copied on it's missing part. It would help a lot of old and new builds if it duplicated, but they would have done that by now with old weapons if they really wanted that. I would really love dual pistols on harbi, but I know it is just a pipe dream.

It won't but my next logical game design goal would be to bring that spec into more balance to be as equitable as other specs. For better or worse the do work on balancing but sometimes it can take years for them to get back to it and that's really unfortunate in the meantime. 

[Dawanarth.4601]

It's impossible to give the same number of Weapon skill to each Profession

Like the Elementalist for example has a minimum of 8 Weapon skills (offhand) to 20 if 2h

So being fair by giving the same number of skills wouldn't work since the Elem would have 4x the normal skill set