A "PvE Only" Spec is a Failed Spec.

[Shiyo.3578]

When a class like guardian exists, the goal post is moved so far up it's basically on the moon. Can't have specs that are good for a single form of content or something when guardian exists.

[Shiyo.3578]

11 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

That's bs on wheels. Patch notes are great source of information how something will be garbage in the game, like Catalyst. I didn't even have to test it in game to know that is just punching bag in PvP and WvW and the only usability it has is in PvE Golem Benchmarks.
Just because you're incapable of such feats doesn't mean rest of the community is on the same level.
BTW. keep it up, you're almost at 10k posts of bs.

Exactly. Just looking at it's first beta version we saw that:

• It lacked proper mitigation.
• It lacked sustain.
• It's block is a joke.
• It lacked mobility.
• It lacked HP.

It doesn't take testing to look at this and go "Oh, this spec sucks everywhere but instanced pve".

[Substance E.4852]

 

13 hours ago, Linnael.1069 said:

PvE Viability is literally the bare minimum for a spec. Anet doesn't have to do anything but increase damage numbers (which can even be mode split) to make anything PvE viable. There are plenty of successful specs which are powerful in PvE and also dominant in other modes (FB, Scourge, Ren, Holo, Tempest, the list goes on.)

True, but the viability of "make sure it's good everywhere" becomes less and less a reality as more specs are released into completely static pvp and wvw modes

Anet can barely keep every class in the "has at least one optimum general pve build" category as is

They're rapidly running into the same problem they had with GW1 where an ever growing list of classes and skills became too many balls in the air and they eventually gave up

People need to temper their expectations of what new classes should bring to the game or they're going to be very disappointed in the future

This rings especially true for classes that already have a solid presence in every mode

[Substance E.4852]

*double post*

Edited December 3, 2021 by Substance E.4852

[Duke Blackrose.4981]

Since when have "PvE-only" specs been an issue this game has actually had. We have had an issue with specs that were very clearly designed with only PvP in mind (the original versions of the Scrapper and Willbender), and those are much bigger design failings.

[Bale.3851]

WTF is this debate....everyone can make assumptions that what people do all the time based of their exp. and to clearify your assumptions you play the beta. But even without playing it i can see design issues. No one needs to play for this. Why is this even a thing...like i know my head will hurt if i read further kitten crap but i can also validate by reading through all obtenas posts. The result wont change.

[Gwaymor.9607]

... and a PvP spec is an idiotic spec, made for those whos lifestyle is running away at any possible opportunity, same as a WvW spec:))).

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Gwaymor.9607

[Gwaymor.9607]

And the most fun I get is when I'm drunk as kitten and my team still wind at your pvp crap, which happens quite often, to be honest:).

 

[WindBlade.8749]

Issue is like some people previously say there is a lot of design that you can't do if you need the spec to work in every gamemode, look at the druid, one of the healer that play complettly differently from all the others class and is really good for 10 man content, but this unique gameplay and utility come because the designed was solely made for 10 man content it's kitten outside the gamemode.

Sure you can try to make some adjustement, but increasing the versatility of a skill can make it too op and just changing some skills for pvp make it less good in pve gamemode.

I don't mind pvp/pve only specs even if it's really annoying as long it's really justified by a unique/fun gameplay that is totaly fit the gamemode targeted by the spec, because the gamemode community will get an amazing new gameplay that is not blanded for the sake of others gamemode.

Edited December 3, 2021 by WindBlade.8749

[Alcatraznc.3869]

Is there a spec that doesnt work in PVE but works in PVP or WvW ? Because I cant really think of one.

 

If there's a spec that struggle in PVE, I doubt it can be a decent pick for PVP or WvW. That doesnt mean a good PVE spec is a good PVP spec but at least it get the job done somewhere. 

 

PVE is arguably the main gamemode so of course Anet may just focus on the PVE aspect right now, even if they're allowing those spec to be tested in non PVE places. This is a beta, anything can change for the better or worse.

[Zenith.7301]

1 hour ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Is there a spec that doesnt work in PVE but works in PVP or WvW ? Because I cant really think of one.

 

If there's a spec that struggle in PVE, I doubt it can be a decent pick for PVP or WvW. That doesnt mean a good PVE spec is a good PVP spec but at least it get the job done somewhere. 

 

PVE is arguably the main gamemode so of course Anet may just focus on the PVE aspect right now, even if they're allowing those spec to be tested in non PVE places. This is a beta, anything can change for the better or worse.

 

Are you serious? Spellbreaker is a meme.

 

Scrapper was a meme for the past 5 years until the rework with quickness addition.

 

Herald is a meme in PvE still.

 

Tempest is a meme in PvE.

 

Not to mention the serviceable but absolutely mediocre PvE specs like Reaper, Weaver, Deadeye.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Is there a spec that doesnt work in PVE but works in PVP or WvW ? Because I cant really think of one.

 

If there's a spec that struggle in PVE, I doubt it can be a decent pick for PVP or WvW. That doesnt mean a good PVE spec is a good PVP spec but at least it get the job done somewhere. 

 

PVE is arguably the main gamemode so of course Anet may just focus on the PVE aspect right now, even if they're allowing those spec to be tested in non PVE places. This is a beta, anything can change for the better or worse.

heres the problem.

due to the powercreep of the game, any specc can effectively work in all content because the game PvE Wise DPS Requirements are far below the capability of every proffession and most builds can manage, however competitively considered. yes Lots of speccs arent considered in PvE..

the Same as in PvP Any specc can effectively work. to a Specific Level... For example. u can easily climb to gold with Berserker Warrior, Soulbeast even Core Engineer realistically.

The issue realistically is, We only consider the bleeding edge of Viability to be the "Chosen ones" Effectively. People disregard Speccs which arent Meta in SPVP as "PvE only speccs" and people consider anything below the top builds to be "PvP only" Speccs, and community perception is effectively built.

Now the problem is for example

if Vindicator is Beneath renegade in SPVP it'll be considered a "Non-SPVP Specc" because renegade outclasses it.. the alternative is to continously Power creep the game to ensure the next elite is better then the old, then u hjave to look at how many get annoyed at something they loved getting replaced by something they may no longer enjoy to play. Its impossible to Equalise the Capabilities between every elite without homogenizing the Speccs by a TON.

Its a Unreachable critea it'll never be reachable lets look at SPVP Meta currently.

Why are Sidenoders currently considered a "Non meta Role" because we can make this argument to someone who wants to try call Spellbreaker or Weaver a "Good PvP Option", in SPVP Due to the thief role. and the flexibility of some roaming options such as Renegade Herald and Holosmith this basically means in a Good SPVP Comp u dont have a Duelist anymore which leaves choices such as Spellbreaker without a Needed role realistically.

is it fixable? No because theres Roles in SPVP that are completely redundent in PvE, Thief is a Good vision of this, because in PvE U dont need Stealth, you Dont need Super high Mobility and you dont need Decap potiental effectively these are redundent roles in PvE. Just like Boon Uptime and 46k DPS Isnt needed in SPVP either.

If PvE Was levelled out with the current Power creep, we'd wave goodbye to this concept of a "PVE Specc" why?. because alot of speccs wouldnt be able to do the DPS Required to push the content realistically. Its because the bars so low. u can call anything "Non meta" a PvE Specc.

When we're considering bleeding edge of Meta Choices On both sides of the fence theres LOADS of options that Arent fit for the role. when we look at the average playerbase Level almost everything is Viable. u can play Berserker, Druid, Core Mesmer, Spellbreaker, Weaver, Even Core Fresh Air Elementalist in a Silver - Gold SPVP Game. Just like you could go Clear the Latest raid with a Core Engineer.

when ur looking at a Speed clear however. or a High plat - legendary game however U reliese 90% of options are basically Crossed out immediately and even tho 90% of the games population are No where near this level of play they'll Gun for that Meta role. this is in no way a reflection on my thoughts of the latest elites but remember this:

We are seeing these proffessions 1 Month on in progression from our Inital Feedback from their first betas, Excluding Virtuoso (thsoe fixs were defintly not the fixs it needed) I'd say it was Successful for every elite, every elite saw a Major improvement to what it was orginally, They have another 2months. They wont all replace the SPVP Meta, they wont all Replace the PvP meta. they wont all become WvWvW power houses.

but I wouldnt say a speccs failed just because it isnt meta in every game mode, there are speccs which perform Better and worse throughout game modes and no specc has been consistently the meta in every game mode excluding a select few (Renegade)

Edited December 4, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Axl.8924]

I personally agree if i play this game i want to see willbender i want to see bladesworn vindicator etc etc.

I want all the new specs to be interesting and fulfil some role.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

On 12/3/2021 at 12:12 PM, Duke Blackrose.4981 said:

Since when have "PvE-only" specs been an issue this game has actually had. We have had an issue with specs that were very clearly designed with only PvP in mind (the original versions of the Scrapper and Willbender), and those are much bigger design failings.

 

Since EoD.

It's true we've had PvP oriented specs before, and I remember them getting flak too, especially scrapper iirc. And now we're having the opposite problem with especs that are useless in PvP and only have any value in PvE.

They're both problems, the fact that one exists doesn't mean the other is excused, if anything it just makes it worse.

[Ryou.2398]

On 12/2/2021 at 8:33 AM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

You always write ridiculous things but this one is in my "Top 10 Delusions of Obtena" list for sure.
People can already see a problems just from reading a kitten patch notes without even playing the game itself, it's not rocket science, it's simply experience and already obtained knowledge from the past, nothing beyond that.
The only thing that need to be checked are possible bugs and unwanted/hidden interactions which would miss devs eye.

Yea and then you get censored for questioning while they are off scott free, double standards in 2021 I guess.

[Mell.4873]

The large majority of players don't play pvp, fractals, strikes, raids etc. What makes a spec fun is a austetic role.

People play guardian because they like a more traditional role, same with rangers. Hese why they are number 1 class and number 3 respectfully. 

 

It all serves a fantasy the players wants to create.

 

What is problem is classes that are played only because they are good for a certain type of content. Scourge being the primary example, it's a healer but people play it since it has broken torment application, that is bad game design. 

[Duke Blackrose.4981]

On 12/4/2021 at 5:32 PM, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

 

Since EoD.

It's true we've had PvP oriented specs before, and I remember them getting flak too, especially scrapper iirc. And now we're having the opposite problem with especs that are useless in PvP and only have any value in PvE.

They're both problems, the fact that one exists doesn't mean the other is excused, if anything it just makes it worse.

PvP only specs are an issue of design. "PvE oy specs" are an issue of balance. You could look at something like the Willbender and obviously observe that it was being intentionally hamstrung by tradeoffs for PvP. You could look at things like the Scrapper's gyro finisher and Daredevil's elite skill and know that they were being designed for PvP. A spec that fails in PvP is one that just isn't offering the things PvP happens to need.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

12 minutes ago, Duke Blackrose.4981 said:

PvP only specs are an issue of design. "PvE oy specs" are an issue of balance. You could look at something like the Willbender and obviously observe that it was being intentionally hamstrung by tradeoffs for PvP. You could look at things like the Scrapper's gyro finisher and Daredevil's elite skill and know that they were being designed for PvP. A spec that fails in PvP is one that just isn't offering the things PvP happens to need.

 

PvE only specs are often also an issue of design. PvP has different needs than PvE, for example Virtuoso has (or maybe had since they nerfed it this beta) good damage in PvE but horrendous damage in PvP, and it's not because of its scalings, it's because most of its skills can be side-stepped and/or reflected. Fixing such a thing would require a redesign of its skills, therefore it's a design issue.

[Duke Blackrose.4981]

24 minutes ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

 

PvE only specs are often also an issue of design. PvP has different needs than PvE, for example Virtuoso has (or maybe had since they nerfed it this beta) good damage in PvE but horrendous damage in PvP, and it's not because of its scalings, it's because most of its skills can be side-stepped and/or reflected. Fixing such a thing would require a redesign of its skills, therefore it's a design issue.

When your design issue is literally "don't do projectiles," the problem isn't the spec.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

1 hour ago, Duke Blackrose.4981 said:

When your design issue is literally "don't do projectiles," the problem isn't the spec.

 

Except it is.

There are many specs and cores in the game that have projectiles, many of whom rely on such aswell, but they have the appropriate tools to get around the typical projectile issues, compensate for such issues or just straight up not having to use projectiles as much. Virtuoso does nothing except projectiles, has no tools except damage, and the payoff isn't even worth it. Saying the issue is "don't do projectiles" is a gross oversimplification.

[itspomf.9523]

On 12/2/2021 at 7:57 AM, Linnael.1069 said:

I know this will be controversial since the majority of players only play PvE, but I ask that when you are giving feedback and people have legitimate concerns about other game modes, do not try and hit back with the common refrain "But it's good in PvE though".

PvE Viability is literally the bare minimum for a spec. Anet doesn't have to do anything but increase damage numbers (which can even be mode split) to make anything PvE viable. There are plenty of successful specs which are powerful in PvE and also dominant in other modes (FB, Scourge, Ren, Holo, Tempest, the list goes on.) 

Some of the new specs really need a lot of help in other modes, like Virtuoso and Bladesworn or Catalyst to a lesser extent. It's not ok to just say "This is only meant for PvE" as if that solves their issues. And any older specs that don't pass this bar should be fixed as well.

 

I see your hyperbole and raise you a "a PvP Only spec is a failed spec."

[Linnael.1069]

13 hours ago, fluffdragon.1523 said:

 

I see your hyperbole and raise you a "a PvP Only spec is a failed spec."

Yeah that's also true, clearly you agree that specs should be viable in multiple modes. 

The only reason I mention PvE only is because that has been the case for many of the new EoD specs. It's an even bigger failure to not even make a spec viable for PvE since you literally don't even need to change any design, just give it bigger coefficients and eventually it will be viable.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Linnael.1069

[Shiyo.3578]

On 12/3/2021 at 5:37 PM, WindBlade.8749 said:

look at the druid,

Druids a great example of a failed spec.

[Puck.3697]

On 12/8/2021 at 1:08 AM, Mell.4873 said:

The large majority of players don't play pvp, fractals, strikes, raids etc. What makes a spec fun is a austetic role.

People play guardian because they like a more traditional role, same with rangers. Hese why they are number 1 class and number 3 respectfully. 

 

It all serves a fantasy the players wants to create.

 

What is problem is classes that are played only because they are good for a certain type of content. Scourge being the primary example, it's a healer but people play it since it has broken torment application, that is bad game design. 

But firebrand is also heavily broken lol. 

People play what causes the least resistance i.e strong in all content with options + a demand for. 

We are human we travel the path of least resistance by nature. Scourge renegade and firebrand are highly demanded roles in groups. Druids are massively wanted to. 

So people levitate towards them.

There's a reason why many post up asking for the best proffessions for what they want to do. And sites like hardstuck and more get more and more popular. 

And following their favourite fantasy isn't the reason really. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

10 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Druids a great example of a failed spec.

Immobilization Druid is still really strong in WvW.  It's in the top running for best roamer and small scale.  It is also a nearly required class for every raid wing.  By no means is Druid a failed spec.