Reflect Reflect,Block,Reflect,Block.

[saerni.2584]

I think most projectile block skills (I use one as well) are ok. They stop projectiles but it is fairly limited (set location, limited duration, cooldown). 
 

Recalling the pirate ship meta I would remind everyone of how forcing people into close range is better for the health of the game than eating 10 projectile AoE from 1200 range and going down. And you can still use ranged it just takes timing and care. 

[Aeolus.3615]

Remove the dome from scappers  🙂  if players want longer domes use guardian  sanctuary or ventari one since a ventari using the tablet dome cant do nothing else lol, at least theres a real tradeoff here contrary to scrapper dome, and we all know how small to bigger groups are always inside a scrapper domes when pushing or moving  arorund the enemy s o/w any trade off  of that just punishing single range classes damage output.

 

Besides scrappers are overtuned at the momment, but its kinda a evil needed...wich also needs to end, loosing the dome would not hurt them much compared with what they have.

WvW balance issue is that Anet made it need only 4 classes to perma ovestack boons, heals, condi, damage, this will kill any other spec or class that is outside those 4.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Shiyo.3578]

20 hours ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

Tone down the projectile hate,the projectile block/reflect share spamm so projectile based spec aka De's,or any Ranger spec etc can actually  have a viable role in WvW "BloB' fights. Theres too much of it,period. Hence the entire has been Aoe spamm for years and rangers never wanted.

Yeah, the games combat is a joke. 

[LionZero.3479]

Regarding ranger,

There was a moment when signet of the hunt gave you a frame to deal some ranged dps but alas the balance gods deemed it to strong and made it useless again, when it was pretty niche to begin with ^^ (considering the duration and cd)

[Caedmon.6798]

15 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

There's a problem, though.  The skills in the game are, with rare exception, mechanically designed to function in structured PVP.  That's small scale for WvW.  There, reflects aren't nearly as powerful.  If you're 1v1 or 2v1 versus a Deadeye and you drop something like Feedback, the Deadeye just vanishes for 8 seconds and comes right back like nothing happened.

All of this projectile hate exists because without it, functional melee builds would be few and far between.  Even now, the strategy for melee focused builds is to throw on a bunch of mobility skills in the hopes of either catching players or running away from a losing fight.  It happens that projectile hate scales well, because they're primarily environmental effects.  

Im not even talking about 1on1 or 1on2.. Its strictly about the bigger groups that rotate this Forever and Ever. Invuln traits  got the 300 sec treatment long while back,but this is still ok ? Theyre still a complete invuln vs range projectile based attacks,it should get the same treatment imo. The cd's are too low,the rotations are permanent because of it. The aoe meta is a thing,because of it. Ranged projectile based dps is not wanted,because of it.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Caedmon.6798

[Caedmon.6798]

10 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Normally I would agree, but knowing that you run stealth Deadeye I'm actually happy that the only one that gets annoyed here is you.

 
I made this thread playing a Warri,but Ok.

[Infusion.7149]

6 minutes ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

 
I made this thread playing a Warri,but Ok.

So you're playing a rifle or longbow warrior and camping that instead of spellbreaker with a greatsword + dagger or sword mainhand or berserker with greatsword and double axe... even the burst on longbow gets around this
Seriously? You know winds of disenchantment is also a projectile block right?

If a team is "chaining reflects" then it means they are too afraid to push or baiting you to a choke for traps and meteors. Even DH needs melee range for trap DPS, otherwise it's just sword of justice and mediocre damage from staff/scepter symbols.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Caedmon.6798]

16 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

So you're playing a rifle or longbow warrior and camping that instead of spellbreaker with a greatsword + dagger or sword mainhand or berserker with greatsword and double axe... even the burst on longbow gets around this
Seriously? You know winds of disenchantment is also a projectile block right?

If a team is "chaining reflects" then it means they are too afraid to push or baiting you to a choke for traps and meteors. Even DH needs melee range for trap DPS, otherwise it's just sword of justice and mediocre damage from staff/scepter symbols.

This isn;t about One specific spec,yall are completely missing the issue.

[Infusion.7149]

6 minutes ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

This isn;t about One specific spec,yall are completely missing the issue.

Are you mad at the earth elementals and veteran wizards too?

You're comparing projectile blocks and reflects to invuln where reflects and blocks have a counterplay via SWAPPING WEAPONS not playing like you're afk and unblockable (see herald/renegade with shiro). Directional reflects such as wall of reflection or the revenant field of the mists can be side stepped unless you are trying to max range people. The majority of invulns don't allow you to cap a point or do anything , see mist form / renewed focus / Elixir S. The ones that do allow you to do things such as Endure Pain or Signet of Stone still allow you to be CC-ed or take condition damage (so there's obvious counterplay).

[Caedmon.6798]

40 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Are you mad at the earth elementals and veteran wizards too?

You're comparing projectile blocks and reflects to invuln where reflects and blocks have a counterplay via SWAPPING WEAPONS not playing like you're afk and unblockable (see herald/renegade with shiro). Directional reflects such as wall of reflection or the revenant field of the mists can be side stepped unless you are trying to max range people. The majority of invulns don't allow you to cap a point or do anything , see mist form / renewed focus / Elixir S. The ones that do allow you to do things such as Endure Pain or Signet of Stone still allow you to be CC-ed or take condition damage (so there's obvious counterplay).

Im just stating theres too much of it and can be rotated to have a near permanent uptime from which most are shared.

[Caedmon.6798]

5 hours ago, saerni.2584 said:

I think most projectile block skills (I use one as well) are ok. They stop projectiles but it is fairly limited (set location, limited duration, cooldown). 
 

Recalling the pirate ship meta I would remind everyone of how forcing people into close range is better for the health of the game than eating 10 projectile AoE from 1200 range and going down. And you can still use ranged it just takes timing and care. 

Pirate ship meta was and is Aoe based where reflects don't really matter since aoe's can be cast infront of people anyway. Im not making this thread about how i want to see a pirateship meta though. But dps wise in blobs,projectile based specs are just useless besides trying to pick off one by one,and if they keep stacking up you better roll another spec because youre not getting anything through. And i think it's time for projectile hate shares to get a nerf in cd time as other invulns got aswell,which werent even shares in the first place..

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Caedmon.6798

[Infusion.7149]

18 minutes ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

Im just stating theres too much of it and can be rotated to have a near permanent uptime from which most are shared.

There's "too much of it" is not a valid answer. That's similar to PVE people saying a class "does too much DPS" but without any tangible suggestions.

How is anyone at Arenanet going to take you seriously when you won't even list which skill(s) need to be adjusted.

Hint: The only mobile projectile destruction skills are Shield of Absorption (guardian gets to do nothing during the channel), Fields of the Mists (an arc projectile block on hammer rev), and Defense Field (support scrapper dome) unless you are talking about DH's Shield of Courage (an arc projectile block) which isn't run in every group. Skills such as feedback/Valiant Bulwark/Winds of Disenchantment/Swirling Winds are ground targeted.

[Caedmon.6798]

40 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

There's "too much of it" is not a valid answer. That's similar to PVE people saying a class "does too much DPS" but without any tangible suggestions.

How is anyone at Arenanet going to take you seriously when you won't even list which skill(s) need to be adjusted.

Hint: The only mobile projectile destruction skills are Shield of Absorption (guardian gets to do nothing during the channel), Fields of the Mists (an arc projectile block on hammer rev), and Defense Field (support scrapper dome) unless you are talking about DH's Shield of Courage (an arc projectile block) which isn't run in every group. Skills such as feedback/Valiant Bulwark/Winds of Disenchantment/Swirling Winds are ground targeted.

If you ever blob with a projectile based spec,which doesnt seem like you do, then you should know what the issue is. And no,im not gonna list you every skill ingame,use Wiki.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Caedmon.6798

[Infusion.7149]

3 minutes ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

If you ever blob with a projectile based spec,which doesnt seem like you do, then you should know what the issue is. And no,im not gonna list you every skill ingame,use Wiki.

Because I'm not foolish enough to try to use projectiles into a bubble. Every profession other than elementalist or engineer has weaponswap.

Also unlike you I have actually listed the skills that could be problematic. The onus is on the person proposing a change to show why it is necessary.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

7 hours ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

Im not even talking about 1on1 or 1on2.. Its strictly about the bigger groups that rotate this Forever and Ever. Invuln traits  got the 300 sec treatment long while back,but this is still ok ? Theyre still a complete invuln vs range projectile based attacks,it should get the same treatment imo. The cd's are too low,the rotations are permanent because of it. The aoe meta is a thing,because of it. Ranged projectile based dps is not wanted,because of it.

That's not how it went down.  The autonomous invulnerability traits were given the 300 second cooldown because Anet wanted to reduce the number of passive traits and actions that each build could get.  Something about wanting skill to win out more than builds.  Regardless, I know you're talking about large-scale combat.  That, however, doesn't change my explanation for what is going on, nor does it address my concerns.  AoE spam is a thing, but I'm still seeing zergs do coordinated pushes with melee weapons.

[Charybdis.3695]

Is it not widely known that unblockable attacks (including projectiles) will pierce through reflects and projectile absorption? Pretty sure Ranger has the option of becoming unblockable... 🤔

[saerni.2584]

2 hours ago, Echo.6310 said:

Is it not widely known that unblockable attacks (including projectiles) will pierce through reflects and projectile absorption? Pretty sure Ranger has the option of becoming unblockable... 🤔

Most of not all unblockable attacks were reworked to a X number of attacks model. This makes it far less usable as a bypass, but you are correct this is a partial workaround to surprise the target. I personally don't have unblockable attacks in my build (also not a Ranger) so I also can't rely on that to avoid anti-projectile bubbles. 

Wall of Reflection (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wall_of_Reflection) is probably the one skill I'd say is too short of a cooldown given the 8 second duration. Guardian has a lot of other blocks and damage mitigation so this single skill adds significantly to projectile hate uptime (traited it is 8 seconds on 20 second cooldown) with the added bonus of being a reflect.

 

Other than that single skill I can't think anything is majorly unfair. Stacking to Zerg levels of 25+ can produce a lot of unfair effects and that isn't unique to projectiles. I still think this is more a "design your build" issue than something we can put on the devs because there are a lot of unknowns built into entirely fundamental changes to the game design. If a profession has an issue then we should talk about how to safely buff that profession to improve Zerg play. 
 

Looking at Specter. Thief is unwanted now but come EoD there might be a place for a support healer using teleport wells to keep up with the Zerg. The role might not be our original idea of thief but there is no denying a heal support is a valuable asset in large scale fights. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Ranger has like one block on GS and you never see ranger threads complaining about other rangers using LB on them 🤔. 

This alone says that blocks/reflects/invulns have gotten so bad for other classes that when they are bypassed they don't know what to do.  I mean, most classes have pretty much equal or greater mobility to ranger and you again don't see rangers asking to be self-nerfed because LB exists.  

My solution would be revert unblockable from stacks to duration.  Things like piercing LB then would become enough to make a lot of groups second guess when to hit those blocks.  

Edited December 27, 2021 by Gotejjeken.1267

[ArchonWing.9480]

Rangers should have 0 problems doing with this, since they can trait Quick Draw to double barrage and nobody has that much reflect uptime so that you have 0 targets to snipe unless that group is that tight which just won't happened in protracted fights.

What is 10x more annoying  is downstate and those insta res skills like Illusion, and this would be true even if there were no reflects.  That is the real reason why nonball ranged classes are useless. (along with the prevalence of group superspeed negating most ranged advantages)  Suffice to say it was much more viable bringing those things during NDS weeks.

Honestly, I noticed many players just continuously 11111'ing themselves to death in a reflect even in small fights, so that kind of stupidity should be punished.

I suppose they could consider a maximum of attacks each ward can block so it only affects zergplay, but then again that increases the chance of pirate shipping more which would suck.

Edited December 27, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Caedmon.6798]

4 hours ago, saerni.2584 said:

Most of not all unblockable attacks were reworked to a X number of attacks model. This makes it far less usable as a bypass, but you are correct this is a partial workaround to surprise the target. I personally don't have unblockable attacks in my build (also not a Ranger) so I also can't rely on that to avoid anti-projectile bubbles. 

Wall of Reflection (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wall_of_Reflection) is probably the one skill I'd say is too short of a cooldown given the 8 second duration. Guardian has a lot of other blocks and damage mitigation so this single skill adds significantly to projectile hate uptime (traited it is 8 seconds on 20 second cooldown) with the added bonus of being a reflect.

 

Other than that single skill I can't think anything is majorly unfair. Stacking to Zerg levels of 25+ can produce a lot of unfair effects and that isn't unique to projectiles. I still think this is more a "design your build" issue than something we can put on the devs because there are a lot of unknowns built into entirely fundamental changes to the game design. If a profession has an issue then we should talk about how to safely buff that profession to improve Zerg play. 
 

Looking at Specter. Thief is unwanted now but come EoD there might be a place for a support healer using teleport wells to keep up with the Zerg. The role might not be our original idea of thief but there is no denying a heal support is a valuable asset in large scale fights. 

I do pop in sig of might on warri at times,it's far from enough though.

[Justine.6351]

Reflects already have a counter limit based on the intelligence of projectile users firing into it. The smart ones stow and the thirsty ones switch to something like barrage.

 

I think there is room to trim out the "newer" sources of reflect from elite specs but I think core stuff should stay. Mostly because I play traited focus on my mesmer 😎

[Arheundel.6451]

Used to agree with the nerf on soulbeast unblockable trait....not anymore, rangers need that trait back

[Caedmon.6798]

16 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

Reflects already have a counter limit based on the intelligence of projectile users firing into it. The smart ones stow and the thirsty ones switch to something like barrage.

 

I think there is room to trim out the "newer" sources of reflect from elite specs but I think core stuff should stay. Mostly because I play traited focus on my mesmer 😎

Nothing to do with being smart or dumb.

 

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Rangers should have 0 problems doing with this, since they can trait Quick Draw to double barrage and nobody has that much reflect uptime so that you have 0 targets to snipe unless that group is that tight which just won't happened in protracted fights.

What is 10x more annoying  is downstate and those insta res skills like Illusion, and this would be true even if there were no reflects.  That is the real reason why nonball ranged classes are useless. (along with the prevalence of group superspeed negating most ranged advantages)  Suffice to say it was much more viable bringing those things during NDS weeks.

Honestly, I noticed many players just continuously 11111'ing themselves to death in a reflect even in small fights, so that kind of stupidity should be punished.

I suppose they could consider a maximum of attacks each ward can block so it only affects zergplay, but then again that increases the chance of pirate shipping more which would suck.

This isnt about killing myself to reflect,i know how to play,i know how to stow,and i dont die to reflect. Ive already layed out the issues,and i dont feel like repeating myself.

[Ferus.3165]

there is a simple solution really... blocks and reflects should only block or reflect a set amount of hits. Like all unblockable effects, all reflect or block effects should have a counter. That way not much will change in a small scale fight but one scrapper dome would no longer be able to protect an entire zerg from the projectiles of 50 other players.

[Justine.6351]

2 hours ago, Ferus.3165 said:

there is a simple solution really... blocks and reflects should only block or reflect a set amount of hits. Like all unblockable effects, all reflect or block effects should have a counter. That way not much will change in a small scale fight but one scrapper dome would no longer be able to protect an entire zerg from the projectiles of 50 other players.

So would warrior's shield block just expire early if he is getting pounded by rangers then?