Whats the big deal with mortar and grenades?

[Axl.8924]

I see some complaints but i rarely pvp i don't see that many engis with mortar.

Some folks in PVP forum act like its a ez to get to plat 3 and can hard counter everything. Is it really that good?

[ollbirtan.2915]

Nothing. Just more "cry-me-a-river" posts asking for nerfs. 

 

[schloumou.3982]

Imho Nades are too spammable and ez to land for the amount of ranged cleave dmg they do in the current environment. Mortar should be fine tho.

[SeTect.5918]

2 hours ago, schloumou.3982 said:

Imho Nades are too spammable and ez to land for the amount of ranged cleave dmg they do in the current environment. Mortar should be fine tho.

People cry about mortar bc it has 1500 range and they cant even move 1 cm so they still get hit by that sloooooooooow projectile.

i dont see any problem with mortar.

Nades r discussed bc superspeed scrappers can throw their nades behind them while runnin away. I died 1 or 2 times by that too but I didnt find it a that big deal because why chasing them with melee weapon set....just bring a range weapon in ur weapon set if u r no engi or ele.

[Infusion.7149]

Because the instinctive reaction to anything that kills you is to scream for nerfs in the PVP subforum.

[Matoro.9708]

Grenades are boring and totally shut down by aoe projectile block. People just like the concept of "haha superspeed auto goes brrr" even though far bigger nukes exist but take more effort to set up. I don't bother using them just because of the stigma, frankly. 

I would use mortar kit more if the skin didn't look like a iron cornucopia. 

[Adrianna.3092]

1 hour ago, Matoro.9708 said:

Grenades are boring and totally shut down by aoe projectile block. People just like the concept of "haha superspeed auto goes brrr" even though far bigger nukes exist but take more effort to set up. I don't bother using them just because of the stigma, frankly. 

I would use mortar kit more if the skin didn't look like a iron cornucopia. 

oh i know the mortar kit looks ugly as kitten...

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

nades are ranged aoe that doesnt require facing your target, and they have one of the highest damage auto attacks in the game. they are a hard counter to a lot of builds especially when you combine them with flashbang and explosive entrance.

mortar kit is just annoying because its 1500 range spam

[Infusion.7149]

^ It's because grenade kit auto doesn't have a game mode split. It's a projectile and when untraited you are unlikely to hit all 3 grenades. If Arenanet split the auto it would probably be reduced to 0.2 coefficient per grenade instead of 0.33 utility/bundle coefficient per grenade.

Mortar kit is already split so anyone complaining about it is just complaining, to be honest. It's a projectile with a slow travel time.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

Grenade are strong but they are really difficult to use especially against mobile target. Just like mortar, people who use them to get consistent DPS are basically at melee range to ensure hitting all the nade or they are just on the side of a fight and throwing nade at people too focused on their fight. Good luck landing consistent hit against an opponent that moves a lot and sometime back and forth behind and in front of you. 

 

Mortar is strong as well however it is pretty much a melee weapon that has 1500 range. Unlike grenade where you can hit your target at range if you have some practice and good prediction, it is impossible to hit someone who isnt moving in a straight line at range. The projectile is super slow and the arc makes it impossible to use the full range indoor....or rather in places where the ceiling is low. I dont think I've seen someone loosing against an engineer camping the mortar kit in melee range but it shouldnt even be a problem as long as you dont fight within the chill and blind field it drops. 

[Arheundel.6451]

Engineers are busted as hell and there is no logical denial, grenades and mortar are just the cherry on top

[GoldenPants.1870]

4 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Engineers are busted as hell and there is no logical denial, grenades and mortar are just the cherry on top

So busted they are the least played class. Even less than revenants.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 12/28/2021 at 11:59 AM, ollbirtan.2915 said:

Nothing. Just more "cry-me-a-river" posts asking for nerfs. 

 

Every one plays the same meta builds wich result in 0 counter-meta builds. :P

[Kuma.1503]

They're an easy scapegoat people can turn to when Engi's beat them in PvP. I've even gotten hate for playing grenadier core engi before. 

People be salty. 

[schloumou.3982]

On 12/28/2021 at 12:59 PM, ollbirtan.2915 said:

Nothing. Just more "cry-me-a-river" posts asking for nerfs. 

 

 

On 12/28/2021 at 8:13 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

Because the instinctive reaction to anything that kills you is to scream for nerfs in the PVP subforum.

 

14 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

They're an easy scapegoat people can turn to when Engi's beat them in PvP. I've even gotten hate for playing grenadier core engi before. 

People be salty. 

 

 

OP or not, this is just a very cringy circle jerk that makes me a bit sad about what the engi subforum has become. There where times with more substance to discussions about skill performance.

[Infusion.7149]

6 minutes ago, schloumou.3982 said:

 

 

 

 

OP or not, this is just a very cringy circle jerk that makes me a bit sad about what the engi subforum has become. There where times with more substance to discussions about skill performance.

How many times have you been killed by mortar?

Hint: it's already split to PVP.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, schloumou.3982 said:

 

 

 

 

OP or not, this is just a very cringy circle jerk that makes me a bit sad about what the engi subforum has become. There where times with more substance to discussions about skill performance.

 OP asked a question. We gave him an answer. 

If you want to know why I responded in the way I did, it's because PvPers in this game generally don't care about nuance or more substantial conversations about why a skill is good or not. Believe me, I've tried, and continue to try, hoping for a genuine back in forth where we discuss strategy, matchups, and counter-strategies. Something more akin to the discussion you'd see on a fighting game forum. Coming from the Smash bros community, I live for that kind of discussion. 

 

Unfortunately, people would rather, as you said, circle jerk about the things that kill them, cry for nerfs, and ignore all counter arguments. Right now, Nades and mortar are big topics, and it's another obvious scapegoat. As for why, we can get into the nitty gritty if you want, but I'd rather not write another wall of text.

[ClickToKill.8473]

I would be guessing as I don't WvW a lot, but its probably the flavor people are using in WvW Zergs these days.  Most of the PvP build complaints stem from WvW. 

[schloumou.3982]

3 hours ago, ClickToKill.8473 said:

I would be guessing as I don't WvW a lot, but its probably the flavor people are using in WvW Zergs these days.  Most of the PvP build complaints stem from WvW. 

It is not used in WvW Zergs at all since the damage of both kits is shut down by projectile hate with the exception of Poison Grenade. Nades are part of all meta builds in smallscale atm though and considered a bit kitten there but nobody really cares because of how much of a dumpster fire WvW roaming is in general with worse offenders in that regard.

[Jski.6180]

The issue is more on the lines what scraper and to an lesser amount holo can do with these 2 kits. One shots from "easy" stealth in roaming environments for wvw and barrier from dmg. These kits are balanced for the most part on core eng and odds are balanced on Mechanist.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

6 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

The issue is more on the lines what scraper and to an lesser amount holo can do with these 2 kits. One shots from "easy" stealth in roaming environments for wvw and barrier from dmg. These kits are balanced for the most part on core eng and odds are balanced on Mechanist.

 

I've seen a few clip of these infamous "one shot build grenade" recently and there were some true one shot but it was usually against people already hurt or in a fight against others. When it was a single full HP person, it wasnt a always a one shot and when it wasnt a one shot, the people on the receiving end panicked and died. The last video I saw was an scrapper taking on 10 people with his grenade but out of the 10 player he faced, only 1 was actually reacting to the threat, the 9 other were basically watching everything in the middle of the fight and didnt even heal or fight back. I mean, even I who constantly play with garbage ping can deal with people just sitting still and doing nothing for 10 sec, pretty much anyone can. 

 

Meanwhile thief ,mesmer and to an extent soulbeast can do those stupid one shot stuff and get away for free thanks to both mobility (through teleport for mesmer and thief)  and stealth but no one really seems to be bothered by that, in fact some actually praise such thing. If Anet wants to nerf grenade kit because of those very gimmicky use, then they should first take a look at those classes mentioned above. 

[Jski.6180]

5 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

I've seen a few clip of these infamous "one shot build grenade" recently and there were some true one shot but it was usually against people already hurt or in a fight against others. When it was a single full HP person, it wasnt a always a one shot and when it wasnt a one shot, the people on the receiving end panicked and died. The last video I saw was an scrapper taking on 10 people with his grenade but out of the 10 player he faced, only 1 was actually reacting to the threat, the 9 other were basically watching everything in the middle of the fight and didnt even heal or fight back. I mean, even I who constantly play with garbage ping can deal with people just sitting still and doing nothing for 10 sec, pretty much anyone can. 

 

Meanwhile thief ,mesmer and to an extent soulbeast can do those stupid one shot stuff and get away for free thanks to both mobility (through teleport for mesmer and thief)  and stealth but no one really seems to be bothered by that, in fact some actually praise such thing. If Anet wants to nerf grenade kit because of those very gimmicky use, then they should first take a look at those classes mentioned above. 

Well ya scraper is with in that same group now for roaming groups. More then one thing can be true at the same time.

[Shroud.2307]

11 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

I've seen a few clip of these infamous "one shot build grenade" recently and there were some true one shot but it was usually against people already hurt or in a fight against others. When it was a single full HP person, it wasnt a always a one shot and when it wasnt a one shot, the people on the receiving end panicked and died. The last video I saw was an scrapper taking on 10 people with his grenade but out of the 10 player he faced, only 1 was actually reacting to the threat, the 9 other were basically watching everything in the middle of the fight and didnt even heal or fight back. I mean, even I who constantly play with garbage ping can deal with people just sitting still and doing nothing for 10 sec, pretty much anyone can. 

 

Meanwhile thief ,mesmer and to an extent soulbeast can do those stupid one shot stuff and get away for free thanks to both mobility (through teleport for mesmer and thief)  and stealth but no one really seems to be bothered by that, in fact some actually praise such thing. If Anet wants to nerf grenade kit because of those very gimmicky use, then they should first take a look at those classes mentioned above. 

I just want to chime in here to say that I primarily play core Engi in WvW, and often times full zerk. I can absolutely "one shot" with Barrage, and from full health. I do it about a hundred times a night.

That said, it's not just Barrage that's doing the damage, and I put "one shot" in quotations because it's technically a multi-hit. I'm sure I don't need to explain this though - Explosive Entrance is what pushes Barrage in to meme territory with how much damage it allows the total burst to do.

Barrage + Explosive Entrance + Hydromancy Sigil can go anywhere from 15 - 25k assuming the target is on the squishy side. I don't think I could hit much harder with Scrapper or Holo because although I'd gain things like Object In Motion or Laser's Edge, I would have to lose something too, probably Tools which gives me Excessive Energy.

Here's one of the bigger ones without Hydro Sigil that hit for 19,757.

As for the topic of the OP,
Mortar Kit is effective in PvP because it can cover 75% of the node and all you have to do is spam it at your feet. But you don't always need to be on the node with them and it's not going to hit you from range because it's the slowest projectile in the game (maybe besides Rocket). 
There's plenty of options for counterplay to keep it from being OP, but I think it's fair to say it's annoyingly effective at what it does. Not everything that's easy to play/use needs to be nerfed though.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Shroud.2307

[Stx.4857]

Would it severely hurt Engineers if grenades required you to be facing the direction you throw them? 

[Aravind.9610]

8 hours ago, Stx.4857 said:

Would it severely hurt Engineers if grenades required you to be facing the direction you throw them? 

In pve it would hurt condi engineer yes