Perma Stealth Thiefs - What to do?

[Shiyo.3578]

11 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

see it as "tool to run away", which also is a problem in itself.

Yeah, it's waaay too easy to run away in this game. Mobility AND stealth is balanced around conquest standing on capture points so when those things don't exist, the game is unbearable. I can't outplay a thief by taking their node in WvW.

[Caedmon.6798]

2 hours ago, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

WvW would be more fun without stealth.

No perma stealth thieves.

No stealth ganking.

Guild fights would not be decided by 'who stealths the longest' but actual skill.

 

You want to fix wvw? Remove stealth.

WVW would be fun without forever cleanse/heal/boonspamm/reflect spamm groups aswell !

are you honestly gonna pretend that Stealth is the issue in WvW ? Stop being a joke.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Caedmon.6798

[Virdo.1540]

18 minutes ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

WVW would be fun without forever cleanse/heal/boonspamm/reflect spamm groups aswell !

are you honestly gonna pretend that Stealth is the issue in WvW ? Stop being a joke.

at least you can do something against those groups.

[Caedmon.6798]

4 minutes ago, Virdo.1540 said:

at least you can do something against those groups.

Stealth also has mutiple counters.

[Virdo.1540]

Just now, Caedmon.6798 said:

Stealth also has mutiple counters.

Which can be countered by epic teleports and more stealth

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

On 1/6/2022 at 3:51 AM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Could you also enlighten me, why Teefs don't get stunned by Shocking Aura while using Dagger Storm, even though they pretty much sit on me? No they didn't have any stability while casting it.

Daggerstorm is also an evade.....

[kash.9213]

15 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Don't expect too much from stealth DE, he pewpew from 1.5k 24/7 and then stealths away if someone dares to come within 1.2k range.

Not everyone ejoys playing brainlet builds you know?
It's very bold of you to claim "they have stealth to get away from you" while playing SA DD. I've seen you play already and it kinda contradict that statement with your gameplay. You abuse your stealth so much in combat and enemy can't do kitten against it, yet you only see it as "tool to run away", which also is a problem in itself.

That's a small one hour window after I get home from work to catch some casual messing around, but you should know the one SA template I have doesn't also have DD and you'd also know that that I don't "abuse" stealth. My SA build is for covering people in large fights, you can just wait until I'm busy getting someone up and pull me like everyone else does. Or wait until I'm on my DE with with no SA, no Silent Scope, and No Shadow Meld. Or catch me on my Acro core build. I'm about as evenly mediocre on all of them and you won't need many reveals.

Kind of telling how these threads have so much energy. 

Edited January 11, 2022 by kash.9213

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

8 hours ago, Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

Daggerstorm is also an evade.....

Ah yes, floor is made of floor.
Evade doesn't matter in case of Shocking Aura, you either have stab/passive stunbreak or get stunned, no betweens. Why Daggerstorm behaves in melee differently?

[Caedmon.6798]

On 1/11/2022 at 8:36 AM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Don't expect too much from stealth DE, he pewpew from 1.5k 24/7 and then stealths away if someone dares to come within 1.2k range.

Not everyone ejoys playing brainlet builds you know?
It's very bold of you to claim "they have stealth to get away from you" while playing SA DD. I've seen you play already and it kinda contradict that statement with your gameplay. You abuse your stealth so much in combat and enemy can't do kitten against it, yet you only see it as "tool to run away", which also is a problem in itself.

The first mistake you make is calling it "brainless". It's funny because i see more bad De's as proper ones. A new or average De should be a free lootbag. I can counter and shut them down on a build where i dont even slot in a reveal/block or invuln,but by Knowing how they ( should)  play and what they Will/Should be doing and how much they Can do it ( I count the stealth and their Dj's and i know how much shots it takes to fill up malice ) I know how they rotate and position themselves,because i actually know and play the spec myself,i know its limits,i know how to outplay it and counter them without even slotting a reveal. If i would go full counter vs them on my Warri, id grab shield ontop and slot a reveal and slot reflect on block and they would stand zero chance ( Not talking about the Very pro ones because they obv can kill me if played smart,im talking about the Average De).

How do i know this ? Because of spending Hours and Hours and Days with my buddies dueling each other and not getting absolutely wrecked because they taught me step by step what they do and what i should do at that point,and after having learned that then the serious duels started happening where you need to put in what you learned and dying countless of times untill you finally get it,and showing each other how to counter this and that  how to position,and Not always chasing the thief ( Because them needing to get closer to you in stealth requires use of init or a Very valuable shadow step,force them to use it early) and then perfecting it later on.

Years and Years ago i had much issues myself aswell fighting thieves on my warri and got absolutely destroyed and frustrated about it thinking they were broken aswell because i had no clue what was going on most of the time and why they could spamm this and that so often. My guildie Morik was a good thief ( He doesnt play anymore 😞 )  and learned me how to counter them,we dueled for countless of hours untill i finally got it,he explained every skill and what to do against it. Later on i picked thief up myself and he taught me how to play it and how to counter others with it. From that perspective i could finally outplay thieves on my warri.

There are counters,make use of them. Duel thieves,learn them,make one yourself,play it,learn how to play it. Find a good thief to duel against that explains things while dueling. Then you can realize all the potential you have on your main char vs them.

If you want to be serious,learn how to counter,don't ask for nerfs. Even i think certain things are broke at times,but then i take some time back and learn how to counter it. I never asked for a nerf for anything ( well maybe about the reflect spamm ) eventhough i thought it was broke,learn and adapt because Most things,including stealth spamming thieves can be countered.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Caedmon.6798

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

The first mistake you make is calling it "brainless". It's funny because i see more bad De's as proper ones. A new or average De should be a free lootbag. I can counter and shut them down on a build where i dont even slot in a reveal/block or invuln,but by Knowing how they ( should)  play and what they Will/Should be doing and how much they Can do it ( I count the stealth and their Dj's and i know how much shots it takes to fill up malice ) I know how they rotate and position themselves,because i actually know and play the spec myself,i know its limits,i know how to outplay it and counter them without even slotting a reveal. If i would go full counter vs them on my Warri, id grab shield ontop and slot a reveal and slot reflect on block and they would stand zero chance ( Not talking about the Very pro ones because they obv can kill me if played smart,im talking about the Average De).

How do i know this ? Because of spending Hours and Hours and Days with my buddies dueling each other and not getting absolutely wrecked because they taught me step by step what they do and what i should do at that point,and after having learned that then the serious duels started happening where you need to put in what you learned and dying countless of times untill you finally get it,and showing each other how to counter this and that  how to position,and Not always chasing the thief ( Because them needing to get closer to you in stealth requires use of init or a Very valuable shadow step,force them to use it early) and then perfecting it later on.

Years and Years ago i had much issues myself aswell fighting thieves on my warri and got absolutely destroyed and frustrated about it thinking they were broken aswell because i had no clue what was going on most of the time and why they could spamm this and that so often. My guildie Morik was a good thief ( He doesnt play anymore 😞 )  and learned me how to counter them,we dueled for countless of hours untill i finally got it,he explained every skill and what to do against it. Later on i picked thief up myself and he taught me how to play it and how to counter others with it. From that perspective i could finally outplay thieves on my warri.

There are counters,make use of them. Duel thieves,learn them,make one yourself,play it,learn how to play it. Find a good thief to duel against that explains things while dueling. Then you can realize all the potential you have on your main char vs them.

If you want to be serious,learn how to counter,don't ask for nerfs. Even i think certain things are broke at times,but then i take some time back and learn how to counter it. I never asked for a nerf for anything ( well maybe about the reflect spamm ) eventhough i thought it was broke,learn and adapt because Most things,including stealth spamming thieves can be countered.

That's bs on wheels though in long run, stealth giving you freedom of movement and it's not restricted in the slightest. You claim that you learned how to counter them which is only applicable IF enemy will play as you want them, but more often than not, the upper hand in the encounter will always have a Teef. You had this meme duels that you both AGREED on certain "rules", outside of it it's free real estate of gameplay, Teef may or may not do what you expect, because it's not hindered by rules of duels.
Teef within 3s stealth can travel x distance in whatever direction, just because you expect it to move toward specific place, doesn't mean it'll happen, that's just wishful thinking at best. Worse than that, that stealth still can be prolonged, thus adding more possible distance, add some ports here and there and that's about your "dueling experience of countering" threw through window at this point.
Reality is that the moment Teef stealths you consider not just "1 direction" or "1 possibility", you consider 360 radius around teef and travel time with x distance from the stealthing point. Where is "predicitons" and "counters" now? They don't exist.
You may think: "that teef stealthed, so he'll engage me now since he have full hp" and the teef will be like: "lmao, dis dude rolling on floor and wasting cd while i chill with popcorn behind that big rock that will even hide my name".

[Caedmon.6798]

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

That's bs on wheels though in long run, stealth giving you freedom of movement and it's not restricted in the slightest. You claim that you learned how to counter them which is only applicable IF enemy will play as you want them, but more often than not, the upper hand in the encounter will always have a Teef. You had this meme duels that you both AGREED on certain "rules", outside of it it's free real estate of gameplay, Teef may or may not do what you expect, because it's not hindered by rules of duels.
Teef within 3s stealth can travel x distance in whatever direction, just because you expect it to move toward specific place, doesn't mean it'll happen, that's just wishful thinking at best. Worse than that, that stealth still can be prolonged, thus adding more possible distance, add some ports here and there and that's about your "dueling experience of countering" threw through window at this point.
Reality is that the moment Teef stealths you consider not just "1 direction" or "1 possibility", you consider 360 radius around teef and travel time with x distance from the stealthing point. Where is "predicitons" and "counters" now? They don't exist.
You may think: "that teef stealthed, so he'll engage me now since he have full hp" and the teef will be like: "lmao, dis dude rolling on floor and wasting cd while i chill with popcorn behind that big rock that will even hide my name".

I dont think theres any need to tell me what they can do if youve read my post above. But sure,keep on complaining.

[cyberzombie.7348]

Guys, if you duel thieves long enough you'll develop an instinct to where you can tell where they are, what they're about to do, and when regardless of stealth. Same principle applies to any other class you struggle against.

Edited January 14, 2022 by cyberzombie.7348

[SoulGuardian.6203]

On 1/10/2022 at 8:19 PM, Shiyo.3578 said:

What counters? Deadeye's elite removes revealed and revealed isn't exactly a common debuff most classes have(engineer + DH + ranger + rev only iirc?). Do you want me to afk by the reveal scanner things in WvW? Sure, then the thief just walks away from me. Assuming the thief isn't deadeye, they have a million evades and gap closers to instantly teleport across the map away from me.

Exciting gameplay. 

This right here.

100% correct

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

Well, As long as ANet refuses to do jack all about the gutted Acrobatics traitline, that they lazily repackaged as Daredevil, the lion's share of Thief's defenses will be locked to Shadow Arts and Stealth, and nothing will ever change.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for ANet to address Shadow Arts and Acrobatics; they've proven time and time again, across all classes, that they will absolutely always take the easiest and most lazy approach to balancing. Smiter's Boon, anyone?

Edited January 14, 2022 by Keitaro Dragonheart.9047

[aspirine.6852]

Stealth would be more fun if it was what the name inplies..  Invis is just plain stupid. 

[Caedmon.6798]

10 hours ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Guys, if you duel thieves long enough you'll develop an instinct to where you can tell where they are, what they're about to do, and when regardless of stealth. Same principle applies to any other class you struggle against.

 

Comments that make sense are overlooked anyway,they focus on the " Yes i agree" posts.

[MedievalThings.5417]

Average player in the community = stealth and mobility on thief is a problem.

Anet = yeah, let's give classes without a reveal a trap/trick to reveal stealthers.

Anet later that day = let's give thief a way to remove reveal. (makes DE elite)

Also Anet that night = while we're at it, give thieves a portal that can instantly be placed again if timed ok so thieves can abuse hiding in structures.

 

The biggest problem with stealth isn't the Guild Wars version of "perma".  Stealth needs a huge rework, as do all the skills surrounding it and any class with access.

1. Thief stealth should be a toggle on and off, not skill cast over and over.

2. Non-thief classes should continue to have timed stealth skills.

3. Players should never be able to move faster than 80% run speed while stealthed, regardless of class.

4. Attacks should prevent restealthing, with the exception of the DE elite, and it should only have a single use.

 

This would require Anet to fix a bunch of things they don't want to, including class design for some.

 

The other things that would need to change.

 

5. Sentries and watchtower reveals.

6. Reveal traps/tricks.

7. Thief skills/traits would need to be redone.

8. Mobility on most classes would need to be addressed.  Far too many skills allow endless runaways and resets, including on thief.

 

None of this will ever happen.  Maybe these aren't the best ideas, but it would be a start to slowly fixing a number of things that need to be fixed.

 

Maybe later they will look at why they designed walls to make it easier for attackers to kill defenders.

[Shiyo.3578]

1 hour ago, Ubi.4136 said:

None of this will ever happen.

Absolutely right. All Anet has been doing is power creeping classes in EVERY game mode instead of picking something they want to balance around(example; warrior) then bringing everything up/down to that.

They treat this game like a f2p mobile game.

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Ubi.4136 said:

Average player in the community = stealth and mobility on thief is a problem.

Anet = yeah, let's give classes without a reveal a trap/trick to reveal stealthers.

Anet later that day = let's give thief a way to remove reveal. (makes DE elite)

Also Anet that night = while we're at it, give thieves a portal that can instantly be placed again if timed ok so thieves can abuse hiding in structures.

 

The biggest problem with stealth isn't the Guild Wars version of "perma".  Stealth needs a huge rework, as do all the skills surrounding it and any class with access.

1. Thief stealth should be a toggle on and off, not skill cast over and over.

2. Non-thief classes should continue to have timed stealth skills.

3. Players should never be able to move faster than 80% run speed while stealthed, regardless of class.

4. Attacks should prevent restealthing, with the exception of the DE elite, and it should only have a single use.

 

This would require Anet to fix a bunch of things they don't want to, including class design for some.

 

The other things that would need to change.

 

5. Sentries and watchtower reveals.

6. Reveal traps/tricks.

7. Thief skills/traits would need to be redone.

8. Mobility on most classes would need to be addressed.  Far too many skills allow endless runaways and resets, including on thief.

 

None of this will ever happen.  Maybe these aren't the best ideas, but it would be a start to slowly fixing a number of things that need to be fixed.

 

Maybe later they will look at why they designed walls to make it easier for attackers to kill defenders.

The DE Elite should just be changed into something else, like something to help Kneel stance.

As you say, a lot would have to be redesigned, since a lot of thief play involves Stealth Attacks. You can't expect one Stealth Attack to be enough when, regardless of what people think of stealth, the rest of the kitten you'll run into is as bad or worse and no one here complaining will hold back what they have.

If you slow movement in stealth, you'd just need longer stealth duration. If you want toggle only stealth, thief upfront damage and utility will have to rock and do you want that?

[Vornollo.5182]

The problem isn't Thief, it's Deadeye. More specifically the Shadow Meld elite.

Don't get Thief gutted over a single  poorly thought through Elite utility.

There's already the Marked mechanic in the game (which really just messes up the playability for everyone BUT those who it was actually aimed at), on both sentries and structures so...

Additionally there's Stealth Traps, most classes could actually slot a reveal nowadays (DH, Warrior, Herald, Ranger, Engi, Necro) so there's options to counter both Core Thieves and Daredevils if desired.

Also got to remember that Stealth might make one I visible, but not invulnerable. You can still damage and cc stealthed opponents (and it actually becomes easy once you've learned how Thieves work and play in general).

 

So, target is to rework Shadow Meld.

Give some leeway to the passive Marked mechanic from Structures so you don't mess up the legit players that don't try to abuse Stealth, or are just trying to find a little spot to duel etc... Think that might make every proper player left in this game mode a little happier..?

Edited January 15, 2022 by Vornollo.5182
Clarity.

[foxof.8752]

if the stealth only affect so much in the wvw now, the easiest fix is put in the EOTM radar to wvw, 30s time, supply to build, this alone will disencourage perma stealth in big keep and tower. 

Edited January 15, 2022 by foxof.8752

[koben.2654]

two things mostly 
1:
a simple thing that would be easier and not nerfing the thieves too much would just be to fix the CDs/duration on the portal, at present the CD is 60s and has a duration of 60s and while its being "prepared" the CD ticks down so at the end of the 60second duration you can INSTANTLY drop the entrance to the portal again .... 
A:  adjust the duration to 30 seconds (like mesmer portal)  
b: adjust the CD so that when you deploy the start of the skill it doesn't start ticking down the CD instantly 

2:

3 hours ago, foxof.8752 said:

if the stealth only affect so much in the wvw now, the easiest fix is put in the EOTM radar to wvw, 30s time, supply to build, this alone will disencourage perma stealth in big keep and tower. 

i like the sound of utilizing more features from EOTM
*sell them form the same merchant you by supply/painter/disablers form 
~10 sliver and 90 Badges of Honor
~the cast time should be the same length as deploying the sup/painter traps
~10 supply
~duration of 1 hour
~one ACTIVE  per player
~DeSpawns instantly when owner leaves map, DeSpawns when player puts a new one down 
~has a range of about 3000 units, pulses ever 6-9 seconds 
~owner CAN self destroy it (without map hopping and without having to wait out the timer or placing a new one) 
~CAN be destroyed by an enemy player - has 5k hp/ has the buff that it CAN NOT be Crit

edits forgot to add this bit of nostalgic trash 
https://i.imgur.com/mNtlUeQ.png

never did find out who did this but this was about 10k badges of honor 
 

Edited January 15, 2022 by koben.2654
spelling and adding the random link

[Zolazie Grengche.3051]

This problem could be solved real easy if Anet wanted to fix it.

Simply make a timer where any non-owner of the structure has a set time limit to leave or be ported out forcibly.

Give the enemy thief/mesmer/team say 1 hour to retake the objective.

You can't lay dead in the game for-ever, why can someone troll a structure forever? duh....

Solved 

[Caedmon.6798]

1 hour ago, Zolazie Grengche.3051 said:

This problem could be solved real easy if Anet wanted to fix it.

Simply make a timer where any non-owner of the structure has a set time limit to leave or be ported out forcibly.

Give the enemy thief/mesmer/team say 1 hour to retake the objective.

You can't lay dead in the game for-ever, why can someone troll a structure forever? duh....

Solved 

The other way to get around it is take more time to track the thief down and have several players lay down the tools anet gave you to counter them ! Its just a thought though.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Caedmon.6798

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

23 minutes ago, Caedmon.6798 said:

The other way to get around it is take more time to track the thief down and have several players lay down the tools anet gave you to counter them ! Its just a thought though.

What you proposed is: bring SEVERAL(1+n) players and WASTE SUPPLIES to entertain one stealth clown in objective. I don't know about you and your delusions, but this claim just shows how teef players are disconnected from reality and how badly stealth need a kitten nerf to the ground.
Marked from traps/paints just gives you "some" chance against teefs, they still can port, they still can stealth, but they can't stay in stealth forever. Revealed on most classes is garbo. But hey, now you can sometimes see teef on screen, not like he can port away on different continent as one of the highest mobility classes in the entire game.