Nade engi

[solemn.9670]

Everybody is thinking it, I'm just saying it - when are we going to do something about this ^-^

[Shroud.2307]

I'm in support of nerfing Grenade Barrage, but only a very little bit. Like a shave. Then remove Explosive Entrance entirely and put something less stupid in it's place.
Since Scrapper has been repeatedly buffed and geared toward support, would also be nice if they nerfed Applied Force. Object In Motion is enough of a damage buffer, the spec doesn't need to be amazing at support and damage both.

But let's also not forget how often people complain of how tanky everything is and how "nothing does damage anymore."
Don't you think that maybe Nade Engi's are a necessary evil? Or even not the worst thing in WvW when considering the build struggles in large scale fights due to high anti-projectile uptime.

It is extremely weak to Condi and it has poor sustain. The build is only good if you let it constantly hit you for Barrier, or for tilting people by Stealth one shotting. 
I'm not saying this build is healthy for the game - because it's not - but I am saying that it has hard counters and not everything that pisses people off needs to be nerfed. Ironically, with you as an Ele, one of the things that pisses me off more than most is Fresh Air Ele's because they can constantly run away from you while spiking for huge damage with long duration CC's and low cast times. But I know it has risks and counters, so I suffer through it when I have to fight one.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Shroud.2307

[solemn.9670]

16 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

I'm in support of nerfing Grenade Barrage, but only a very little bit. Like a shave. Then remove Explosive Entrance entirely and put something less stupid in it's place.
Since Scrapper has been repeatedly buffed and geared toward support, would also be nice if they nerfed Applied Force. Object In Motion is enough of a damage buffer, the spec doesn't need to be amazing at support and damage both.

But let's also not forget how often people complain of how tanky everything is and how "nothing does damage anymore."
Don't you think that maybe Nade Engi's are a necessary evil? Or even not the worst thing in WvW when considering the build struggles in large scale fights due to high anti-projectile uptime.

It is extremely weak to Condi and it has poor sustain. The build is only good if you let it constantly hit you for Barrier, or for tilting people by Stealth one shotting. 
I'm not saying this build is healthy for the game - because it's not - but I am saying that it has hard counters and not everything that pisses people off needs to be nerfed. Ironically, with you as an Ele, one of the things that pisses me off more than most is Fresh Air Ele's because they can constantly run away from you while spiking for huge damage with long duration CC's and low cast times. But I know it has risks and counters, so I suffer through it when I have to fight one.

First of all, thank you for saying/computing all the necessary considerations that I did not have the time to do-for.

I do not think that nades a necessary evil. I think they are an evil. They contribute to an increasingly cheesy meta where the only way to compete is to become equally cheesy, which is fun for noobs, not fun for vets.

It does not really matter, however reasonable your point is about being weak to condi/having poor sustain, if it can literally 17k hit someone with one skill. I went from 19k health to 1k health from one button press. Seems balanced to me!

FA Scepter ele is something else that I abhor, but that's for another time (don't worry, I've got another lengthy forum whining post in the works). 

[GoldenPants.1870]

23 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

something less stupid in it's place.

Explosiver Entrance, does 4x as much dmg as it does now.

[aspirine.6852]

This, this is the big problem in wvw?  

[Aeolus.3615]

It is a projectile theres plenty of counters that can nullify entirelly the nades.

 

All i can imagine as a balance to it is making it less spammy  but mantain the damage output.

I would start with a 0.5 to 0.7 delay in after cast as preparation uptime for next nades.

Maybe theres a issue with the skill that can be used on "melee mode range" but i think that can easily be adressed.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[solemn.9670]

Without fail, any time an obvious balance issue is brought up, you see the totally-not-biased-at-all mains who chime in brightly with the "There are counters".

 

It's still unbalanced

Literally just nerf the damage

Very simple

edit:.....all due respect.

Edited January 23, 2022 by solemn.9670

[ArchonWing.9480]

The only real problem with it is they can hit from stealth.

Sounds familiar huh?

Whatever you do, please hit Scrapper/Holo and NOT core engi again.

Edited January 23, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Aeolus.3615]

@solemn.9670 I am not saying  since theres counters should not be nerfed,  the build offers to much damage cause its spamablem and a increase on toolbelt nade would be nice as well, but nerfing it cause"every" holo and pwoer scrapper use it would punish core as well, making it less spammy would make it players at least put more effort when using it, since its a never ending nade throw its like a infinite bag of nades lol....

On Holo imo lock photon forge with its own foton forge utils, this what class lacks would hit some macro users that activate between nade kit and forge mode doing nade spam while burstin gwith forge weapons and this also triggers the solar flare focusing trait. 

About power scrapper IDK what needs to be adressed besides lock power modifiers from traits into its hammer weapon only >_>

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[solemn.9670]

8 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

@solemn.9670 I am not saying  since theres counters should not be nerfed,  the build offers to much damage cause its spamablem and a increase on toolbelt nade would be nice as well, but nerfing it cause"every" holo and pwoer scrapper use it would punish core as well, making it less spammy would make it players at least put more effort when using it, since its a never ending nade throw its like a infinite bag of nades lol....

On Holo imo lock photon forge with its own foton forge utils, this what class lacks would hit some macro users that activate between nade kit and forge mode doing nade spam while burstin gwith forge weapons and this also triggers the solar flare focusing trait. 

About power scrapper IDK what needs to be adressed besides lock power modifiers from traits into its hammer weapon only >_>

 

^ v

55 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

The only real problem with it is they can hit from stealth.

Sounds familiar huh?

Whatever you do, please hit Scrapper/Holo and NOT core engi again.

 

[Telgum.6071]

48 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

The only real problem with it is they can hit from stealth.

Sounds familiar huh?

Not at all, the problem is having that absurd AoE burst while also having extreme defensive capabilities such as many boons as you want, projectile hate, stuns, superspeed, invulnerability. Stealth is another nail in the coffin.

[Aeolus.3615]

@solemn.9670

Thats the most tricky part, that should not be called by its name :) stealth netcode goes bbrrrzzttt.

Just remove the stealth from the class XD scrapper is overdesigned atm :) or stealth is loss on moving, if needs to get stationary or arround the deployed gyro while is stealth , has some counterplay i think.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Not at all, the problem is having that absurd AoE burst while also having extreme defensive capabilities such as many boons as you want, projectile hate, stuns, superspeed, invulnerability. Stealth is another nail in the coffin.

Buffed scrapper is a necessary overbuffed EVIL sadly...  ofc scrapper should be nerfed or beter balanced but should be other side of the gameplay that sracpper is trying to atone/balance.

Power scrapper builds  on WvW have perma aoe superspeed as well :P  they are so overbuffed... until scourge isnt slkightly redesigned after EoD(wich i think will happen) there wont be changes to scrappers at all.

And btw should be scourges doing the flow controls of condis and condi  back to positive effect while converting condis on alies to barriers ticks or something, not scrappers...

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[solemn.9670]

3 hours ago, aspirine.6852 said:

This, this is the big problem in wvw?  

When you've given up on WvW and have to create content for yourself; yes. Welcome to 2022 gw2 ;D

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Not at all, the problem is having that absurd AoE burst while also having extreme defensive capabilities such as many boons as you want, projectile hate, stuns, superspeed, invulnerability. Stealth is another nail in the coffin.

And the best way to land this burst is with stealth, and the best way to get out unpunished is also to stealth. That's how they can devote all the stats to offense.

Also superspeed is only widely available on the elite specs.  All those damage modifiers are also from the elite specs. I mean yes you can do some funny stuff like Zephyrite Runes but core engi is like the worst thing in the entire game. The only core engi that is a threat doesn't even use grenades.

I mean I wouldn't really mind hitting superspeed either, but meh.

But I mean, it's pretty clear the spec that got buffed the most (scrapper) is also the biggest culprit.

Edited January 23, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Chaba.5410]

Bring back the old retaliation. Hehe.

[Shroud.2307]

3 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

Without fail, any time an obvious balance issue is brought up, you see the totally-not-biased-at-all mains who chime in brightly with the "There are counters"

I mean you're not wrong, I do vehemently defend my classes when they're complained of. But I also make sure to be reasonable and discuss balance when it's needed. You are right about Grenades being obnoxious, and I do think some changes could be made. I just don't like this vague "nerf it" that people often put forth when complaining of something, because it scares me that ANet will do it and do the wrong thing.
Why I think they listen to the forums or why I get defensive at all is anyones guess. I just want to help by breaking things down, and to be taught things by the handful of people here that want to have actual constructive chats.

Anyway,
it isn't that it has counters that makes me think it isn't a problem. It's that the actual population of people playing this in WvW is extremely low. I see more Stoneheart Tempests trying to kill people with 5 Bleed stacks than I see Nade Engi's, and I'm in WvW like 6 hours a day roaming around. 
It struggles in medium/large scale fights because 75% of the time it can't even do damage. It just isn't an issue that it exists even if it does deserve nerfs, but people complain of it like it's everywhere and destroying WvW. This isn't an epidemic like Sic 'Em Soulbeasts or pre-nerf Deadeyes. It's 1 - 4 players per match up because the rest are playing support Scrapper.

[coro.3176]

I think a fair nerf would be to leave the damage approximately where it is, but remove the Grenadier trait, and set the base grenade speed up slightly (+25-50%).

Now you have a damage skill on a medium cooldown that you can actually dodge once you see it come out. It would not feel nearly as oppressive if there were red circles on the ground long enough for you to recognize and react to them.

[MrForz.1953]

This is all too funny to read.

[Sahne.6950]

IDK... i am just thinking right now so please poke holes.

I dont actually think the damage is the issue (the real issue would be the 100%superspeeduptime and arguably the stealth while being lightningfast)... other builds can do similar damage if they go full offensive aswell... The problem is that you can just spam the grenades without any drawbacks. Maybe give it a counter like Ranger has on its Dagger 4 skill. You have 3-5 barrages of nades that you can spam out at the regular speed. It would keep Engi very close to where it is right now, but would also reduce that mindless "Superspeed-kite-BOOMBOOMBOOM behind you-Gameplay". They can still burst you like they could before, but this time they have to think about it.

 

I never played engi so i am not sure but i think the nades are the 1 skill? or in other words they dont have a cooldown.

maybe make the nadespam one of your skills and make the autoattack just 1 grenade that you can throw,instead of multiple.

one of the other skills would be Grenadebarrage then and it has 3-5 charges.

Overall i think this would reduce the headless gameplay that we see atm but still keep Engi as viable as it is right now (atleast for people that can play it and dont just spam mindlessly)

Edited January 24, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Skada.1362]

Ok sure but lets also nerf every good build/kit for every class then 🙂 #balance!!!!!!!

[God.2708]

For people's edification.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grenade_Barrage

 

Has a 3.0 modifier if every grenade hits, which is not a high bar when traited.

Some comparisons:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Photonic_Blasting_Module
5.0 Power mod if you over heat, take damage afterwards (as you've overheated)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Calamity
3.0 Power mod after 3 seconds, on a utility skill (which means drastically reduced weapon power. Looking at ~40% damage reduction because of this)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Churning_Earth
2.25 Power mod after 2 second channel.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kill_Shot
2.0 Power mod after 1.25s Channel and achieving max adrenaline.

 

The skill was clearly overlooked when the overall damage nerf occured. It is a .3 mod in PvP. Even with a .3 mod you are looking at a skill that can land 10k-12k on squishy targets with zero set up on a middling CD alongside the f5 + explosive entrance burst you can land near simultaneously. You'll be fine.

[Jski.6180]

I think its the scraper that more the issue then the nades. An easy stealth as well high def from doing dmg its a bit much for a near to one shot build.

A point to be made anet did not realy nerf/update the kits in the last big patch so they are all much stronger then other effects in the game atm.

[Chaba.5410]

7 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I dont actually think the damage is the issue (the real issue would be the 100%superspeeduptime and arguably the stealth while being lightningfast)... other builds can do similar damage if they go full offensive aswell... The problem is that you can just spam the grenades without any drawbacks. Maybe give it a counter...

There was a counter.  It was called Retaliation, which got removed.  That's why there isn't any drawback now.  Engineers used to run the risk of downing themselves with certain skills like grenade barrage, flamethrower auto, and prime light beam.  Seems like those skills need a look taken at them now that their counter is gone.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[SeTect.5918]

21 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

There was a counter.  It was called Retaliation, which got removed.  That's why there isn't any drawback now.  Engineers used to run the risk of downing themselves with certain skills like grenade barrage, flamethrower auto, and prime light beam.  Seems like those skills need a look taken at them now that their counter is gone.

I understand that people think that grenades are a problem. Maybe some simple number tweaks in wvw/pvp could be the way or even the thing @coro.3176said above. Tho I would like to see a condi trait instead xD Because explosions is the way to go as 2nd condi engi spec and it still has just 1 condi trait.

However, as I said, I understand that people say that grenades are a problem. But can you please tell facts and not tell them (even) more op as they are? The statement that "there isn't any drawback now" because "retaliation was removed", is simply untrue.
Of course there are drawbacks. Grenades count as projectiles so you can reflect them. They also are slow (if grenadier isnt traited) but that problem was said by "coro.3176" already. There are drawbacks, stop ignoring them please, actually speak facts and dont say there wouldnt be any drawbacks.

I dont disagree that there is a problem with nades in pvp/wvw (mostly on scrapper) but please dont....lie?


Btw what exactly is the problem with Prime light beam? It does like 7 dmg on crit bc its a cc. You would only use it bc of pulsing dmg. At this point u have ur movement keys "wasd" as counter. Tip the the day: Use your movement keys to go out of pulsing damage fields. Seriously, it has 1 pulse each second, I think you have enough time to look on the ground and move out of the field.

[Infusion.7149]

Don't use the word nerf. What it needs is a merge of PVP balance. Stop calling it a nerf when it clearly was overlooked in the Feb 2020 balance and followup patches.

There's other things that also haven't been split at all which are dominant in WVW right now such as DH traps, vengeful hammers, all barriers nerfed in PVP but not WVW (scourge and scrapper alike), boon scalin on med kit auto, faithful strike healing (mace auto on guardian), quickness uptime on Kinetic Accelerators, or shortbow skills on renegade. There's also the infamous necro Lich form. Let's not pretend it's just grenades which have near zero relevance in group scale WvW.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Infusion.7149