What happened to the game design in season 4?

[Dareus.3091]

Hi there!

I would like to preface this by stating that this may come out as a slight rant and I wholeheartedly apologize for it in advice. My point is not to ruffle any feathers in this amazing and helpful community, but there is just something lingering in the back of my head that I need to let out.

 

My MMO journey actually began with GW2 shortly after its release but I could never really get into it so I switched to playing SWTOR (spoils you with decent storytelling), and then moved on to WoW (spoils you with decent game design). However, with the state that WoW is in, I have decided to give GW2 another try, and behold, I have finally reached the max level, and quite frankly, enjoyed the base story and the overall experience of exploring. 

Heart of Thorns was pretty enjoyable for me as well, as it reminded me a bit of Mass Effect storytelling and there were rarely systems that made me slam the desk. Same for Living World Season 3.

Afterward, Path of Fire was kind of okay-ish (yay mounts!) and it has improved the combat style of HoT in which I felt as if I am constantly cc-ed whenever I have decided to inititate combat. 😄

 

But... What in the name of the flying spaghetti monster happened to the game design before Living World Season 4? 

It feels like I may be in a minority here because from what I saw on Reddit and here on the forums, most of the players actually despise the older content and prefer the new one. How come? The systems of S4 are ridiculous (the "stealth" chapter LOL) and the story is a mess. I am playing Revenant and my character is totally shocked when he has to go through the Mists portals... Now I am at the fifth chapter, which is a chapter before the final one, and I am supposed to do "fetch quests"?? I mean... Huh? There is a huge tension of a big battle and my character is wasting time running between places for different things like an Uber driver.

Worst thing is that I know the spoilers for the finale of S4 and that makes everything that S4 is trying to be all the more irrelevant. And if you will wonder why I am even playing through it knowing the spoilers, well, I have 30k achievement points in WoW, I am a completionist, so of course I have to bother with finishing everything I can in GW2. ^^

 

So, my questions are... Apparently at some point a lot of developers left the company - was it before the development of S4 and could that be the reason of the experience of the chapters going downhill? Is the Icebrood Saga the same when it comes to the systems and story?

 

I truly am sorry again for this wall of text. As a WoW refugee I am just desperately trying to like the game and don’t get me wrong, there are tons of things I love, just had to get this off my chest. Please do not burn me, we are all entitled to our opinions, if you disagree, that is completely fine. 🙂 

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

According to the forums, Living World Season 4 is one of the most popular seasons.

The first half of Season 5/The Icebrood Saga fared somewhat well, but the latter parts...not so much. 

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

Some people say IBS seems like a much better job on the story than LW4. Personally, idk but it centers around Braham who is my least favorite character so I have a hard time liking it. 

[LucianDK.8615]

LS4 is really good. I dont know what you are talking about, OP

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

14 hours ago, Dareus.3091 said:

Hi there!

I would like to preface this by stating that this may come out as a slight rant and I wholeheartedly apologize for it in advice. My point is not to ruffle any feathers in this amazing and helpful community, but there is just something lingering in the back of my head that I need to let out.

 

My MMO journey actually began with GW2 shortly after its release but I could never really get into it so I switched to playing SWTOR (spoils you with decent storytelling), and then moved on to WoW (spoils you with decent game design). However, with the state that WoW is in, I have decided to give GW2 another try, and behold, I have finally reached the max level, and quite frankly, enjoyed the base story and the overall experience of exploring. 

Heart of Thorns was pretty enjoyable for me as well, as it reminded me a bit of Mass Effect storytelling and there were rarely systems that made me slam the desk. Same for Living World Season 3.

Afterward, Path of Fire was kind of okay-ish (yay mounts!) and it has improved the combat style of HoT in which I felt as if I am constantly cc-ed whenever I have decided to inititate combat. 😄

 

But... What in the name of the flying spaghetti monster happened to the game design before Living World Season 4? 

It feels like I may be in a minority here because from what I saw on Reddit and here on the forums, most of the players actually despise the older content and prefer the new one. How come? The systems of S4 are ridiculous (the "stealth" chapter LOL) and the story is a mess. I am playing Revenant and my character is totally shocked when he has to go through the Mists portals... Now I am at the fifth chapter, which is a chapter before the final one, and I am supposed to do "fetch quests"?? I mean... Huh? There is a huge tension of a big battle and my character is wasting time running between places for different things like an Uber driver.

Worst thing is that I know the spoilers for the finale of S4 and that makes everything that S4 is trying to be all the more irrelevant. And if you will wonder why I am even playing through it knowing the spoilers, well, I have 30k achievement points in WoW, I am a completionist, so of course I have to bother with finishing everything I can in GW2. ^^

 

So, my questions are... Apparently at some point a lot of developers left the company - was it before the development of S4 and could that be the reason of the experience of the chapters going downhill? Is the Icebrood Saga the same when it comes to the systems and story?

 

I truly am sorry again for this wall of text. As a WoW refugee I am just desperately trying to like the game and don’t get me wrong, there are tons of things I love, just had to get this off my chest. Please do not burn me, we are all entitled to our opinions, if you disagree, that is completely fine. 🙂 

Like the others said Season4 was properly the best in terms of story tension . World design was also okay but also already on the side we have sooo much to do.

 

With Season 5 you can already see when the devs and manager left the game episode 1 is one of the best in general  but then holy moley . Actually most people won't be able to tell the story except for the ending . Maps got split in 2 same for content, and then a super huge meta inside and then the rest got scrapped and reusing old maps .

 

This company is not the same Arena.NET people know since then.

[Dareus.3091]

13 hours ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

LS4 is really good. I dont know what you are talking about, OP

I’m talking about the "roller coaster" type of narrative and game designs. Like... The chapter 5 boss fight was GREAT with absolutely stunning visuals and the ending was handled very well. And then you start chapter 6 and wooo awesome visuals as well (with clunky flying system but oh well) and it’s all picking up and... you’re just running around collecting stuff for people again... 

By no means I am saying it is completely bad or anything, it has its "very highs" and it has its "very lows". Especially the difference in the overall design has been bothering me the most. I realised that in S2 the "fetch" quests were actually mostly covered by having to finish the hearts. Which, in my opinion, was the better way to go. But that’s personal preference again, because I like the system of hearts completion.

9 hours ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

Like the others said Season4 was properly the best in terms of story tension . World design was also okay but also already on the side we have sooo much to do.

 

With Season 5 you can already see when the devs and manager left the game episode 1 is one of the best in general  but then holy moley . Actually most people won't be able to tell the story except for the ending . Maps got split in 2 same for content, and then a super huge meta inside and then the rest got scrapped and reusing old maps .

 

This company is not the same Arena.NET people know since then.

Okay now I’m worried. 😄 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Dareus.3091

[Gorem.8104]

On 2/11/2022 at 7:46 PM, Dareus.3091 said:

Hi there!

I would like to preface this by stating that this may come out as a slight rant and I wholeheartedly apologize for it in advice. My point is not to ruffle any feathers in this amazing and helpful community, but there is just something lingering in the back of my head that I need to let out.

 

My MMO journey actually began with GW2 shortly after its release but I could never really get into it so I switched to playing SWTOR (spoils you with decent storytelling), and then moved on to WoW (spoils you with decent game design). However, with the state that WoW is in, I have decided to give GW2 another try, and behold, I have finally reached the max level, and quite frankly, enjoyed the base story and the overall experience of exploring. 

Heart of Thorns was pretty enjoyable for me as well, as it reminded me a bit of Mass Effect storytelling and there were rarely systems that made me slam the desk. Same for Living World Season 3.

Afterward, Path of Fire was kind of okay-ish (yay mounts!) and it has improved the combat style of HoT in which I felt as if I am constantly cc-ed whenever I have decided to inititate combat. 😄

 

But... What in the name of the flying spaghetti monster happened to the game design before Living World Season 4? 

It feels like I may be in a minority here because from what I saw on Reddit and here on the forums, most of the players actually despise the older content and prefer the new one. How come? The systems of S4 are ridiculous (the "stealth" chapter LOL) and the story is a mess. I am playing Revenant and my character is totally shocked when he has to go through the Mists portals... Now I am at the fifth chapter, which is a chapter before the final one, and I am supposed to do "fetch quests"?? I mean... Huh? There is a huge tension of a big battle and my character is wasting time running between places for different things like an Uber driver.

Worst thing is that I know the spoilers for the finale of S4 and that makes everything that S4 is trying to be all the more irrelevant. And if you will wonder why I am even playing through it knowing the spoilers, well, I have 30k achievement points in WoW, I am a completionist, so of course I have to bother with finishing everything I can in GW2. ^^

 

So, my questions are... Apparently at some point a lot of developers left the company - was it before the development of S4 and could that be the reason of the experience of the chapters going downhill? Is the Icebrood Saga the same when it comes to the systems and story?

 

I truly am sorry again for this wall of text. As a WoW refugee I am just desperately trying to like the game and don’t get me wrong, there are tons of things I love, just had to get this off my chest. Please do not burn me, we are all entitled to our opinions, if you disagree, that is completely fine. 🙂 

Honestly to me, after the personal story, lw4 is the best story the game has, or rather, its only true good one. IBS was terrible, lw3 had its moments but that entire section where my charr character swore his life away for some information easily gained elsewhere leaves a sting in the mouth, lw2 is fine but old now and the achievements make you hate it (Seriously Anet, fix that, don't make me sit through those Centaurs once more, please). Did not get to experience lw1. 

[voltaicbore.8012]

10 hours ago, Dareus.3091 said:

I’m talking about the "roller coaster" type of narrative and game designs. Like... The chapter 5 boss fight was GREAT with absolutely stunning visuals and the ending was handled very well. And then you start chapter 6 and wooo awesome visuals as well (with clunky flying system but oh well) and it’s all picking up and... you’re just running around collecting stuff for people again... 

To be fair, the core game is structured like this as well. Between story unlocks, you're stuck doing busywork for 10 levels until you get to the next story stage. It's just less noticeable because a lot of the personal story is less ambitious in scale and impact than later content.

[ugrakarma.9416]

Theres a mysterious problem in the company in LS4 chapter 3:

- The chapter 3, was launched with a month delay.(before they had a 2 month release cadence). 

- The chapter 3, was launched full of bugs and with a delay that community started to ask what happened..

- The developer that made the roller bettle left.

- the map seems rushed/unfinished.

- the meta is too short compared with previous map metas..

 

- Some developers said that decided take a "new direction" on narrative, after chapter 3.

 

theres a serie of events if u want search;.

 

06 /2018 -  chapter 3 was lanched.

07/2018 - a polemic make one of narratives personel being fired.

02/2019 - the massive layoffs happened.

05/2019 - War Eternal was launched;

 

from comments here:

http://dulfy.net/2018/06/27/gw2-long-live-lich-update-fixes-postponed-tomorrow/

 

"I have to say that this isn’t a good look for ANet. They delayed the release of this chapter by almost a month and it STILL comes out with an even bigger game-breaking bug than in the previous release? (Not to mention that the Rollerbeetle article also contained the announcement of a dev’s departure from the company. Seems like troubled times at the company. I wonder how deep the issues go.)"

Edited February 14, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[LSD.4673]

The story chapters and maps are worked by different teams. It's why there's always a jarring shift from episode to episode.

S4 had some ok moments, but the "stealth" chapter was notoriously bad at release, and continues to be an unfinished cobbled together mess.

[Harfang.1507]

I can fully respect you opinion. It is opposite to mine: I consider S4 to be ANet's best opus. I like the maps, the story, the rewards. I love to hate Joko, who is a real show-stealer. In comparison, I found S3 to be the plot spaghetti.

Fetch quests? I think I was still doing these in WoW at max level in BfA. It is in the nature of MMOs and yes, it is silly. Logically, the Commander should suffer from the Peter principle and be relegated to a desk job and miss all the excitement.

As for S5, aka IBS, the first five chapters have ups and downs. They are not bad by ANet standards, but I much prefered S4 or even S3. Things took a nosedive with the finale, which was released more or less around the same time as EoD was announced. Draw your own conclusions. (The final cutscene was still awesome.)

[Ashantara.8731]

On 2/11/2022 at 12:48 PM, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

According to the forums, Living World Season 4 is one of the most popular seasons.

The first half of Season 5/The Icebrood Saga fared somewhat well, but the latter parts...not so much. 

This sums it up.

@Dareus.3091, they had a new headwriter for Season 4, and I, personally, think it totally paid off, because the previous season (Season 3) was - apart from some of the map designs - mostly awful (Balthazar, Lazarus, Livia, the Shining Blade all got butchered).

Unfortunately, she had to go after an unfortunate Twitter incident, so a new headwriter took over - who did an excellent job... until someone decided that Season 5 (the Icebrood Saga) had to be cut short (obviously due to the suddenly announced 3rd expansion). So everything after Bjora Marches felt super rushed, and the ending was a complete disaster in terms of dialogue, story, and presentation.

[Linken.6345]

13 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

This sums it up.

@Dareus.3091, they had a new headwriter for Season 4, and I, personally, think it totally paid off, because the previous season (Season 3) was - apart from some of the map designs - mostly awful (Balthazar, Lazarus, Livia, the Shining Blade all got butchered).

Unfortunately, she had to go after an unfortunate Twitter incident, so a new headwriter took over - who did an excellent job... until someone decided that Season 5 (the Icebrood Saga) had to be cut short (obviously due to the suddenly announced 3rd expansion). So everything after Bjora Marches felt super rushed, and the ending was a complete disaster in terms of dialogue, story, and presentation.

Was that the one who falsely accused someone of running over protesters?

Or was it the one who attacked a Anet partner for not agreeing with them about how the main character dont have to be a blank slate?

[Ashantara.8731]

4 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Was that the one who falsely accused someone of running over protesters?

Or was it the one who attacked a Anet partner for not agreeing with them about how the main character dont have to be a blank slate?

Neither. It was a misunderstanding that led to an emotional overreaction to a player's question, likely based on negative experiences she had made on the job in the past.

[LSD.4673]

2 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Neither. It was a misunderstanding that led to an emotional overreaction to a player's question, likely based on negative experiences she had made on the job in the past.

The one where she mouthed off at some guy for "telling her how to do her job" when he'd basically just asked a question? That was embarrassing. Lots of inflated self importance, there...

 

If she was head writer, yeah, i guess LS4's writing was better than 3's "quickly tie up loose ends", but 4 was still a mess, and really went overboard on the anime-quality dialogue and silly self-aware remarks.

By now the dialogue has devolved into smug one liners...

[Ashantara.8731]

37 minutes ago, LSD.4673 said:

Lots of inflated self importance, there...

You're obviously not a woman, else you wouldn't react like that to the issue. She had obviously had to deal with sexism at some point or on several occasions in her life, otherwise she wouldn't have gotten triggered so quickly over a harmless question. Don't judge other people so easily of whom you know nothing, I say.

37 minutes ago, LSD.4673 said:

If she was head writer, yeah, i guess LS4's writing was better than 3's "quickly tie up loose ends", but 4 was still a mess, and really went overboard on the anime-quality dialogue and silly self-aware remarks.

Funny, I would say the exact same thing about Season 3, and to me 4 was nothing like that.

Well, tastes and perception differ. 🙂

37 minutes ago, LSD.4673 said:

By now the dialogue has devolved into smug one liners...

We can agree on that. 😄

Edited February 15, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Living World seasons 3 and 4 have been the highest quality and most enjoyable additions to the game for me. Perhaps better than the expansions even. Wonderful new maps were added to the game with great attention to detail. Far better than LW S2 and Icebrood Saga. Not to mention LW S1 which is largely unacceccible.

[DarcShriek.5829]

Personally, I enjoyed season 4.  IBS chapter 5 made me wish season 4 was back.

[Tazer.2157]

The main story after the introduction of the 2nd group (I cannot even be bothered to remember what it is called) has been unfulfilling. But the stories told by various events are actually pretty good. Apart from the main story, I feel like all the encounters and the maps and have been wonderfully designed. Unfortunately its all hidden under the achievement section and you miss a lot of content by just playing the main story, so I suggest you go through the achievements in S4. You might enjoy the game a lot more.  

Now coming to the Icebrood saga, while it starts out strong, the story dissolves into a forgettable mess.  That said, the Icebrood saga has some of the most fun events in the game and you won't be disappointed. Also play through the visions of the past: Steel and Fire episode. Its one of my favorites. 

 

 

 

 

[LSD.4673]

5 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

You're obviously not a woman, else you wouldn't react like that to the issue. She had obviously had to deal with sexism at some point or on several occasions in her life, otherwise she wouldn't have gotten triggered so quickly over a harmless question. Don't judge other people so easily of whom you know nothing, I say.

.

I wouldn't chalk it up as to do with sexism. It was just a straight up overblown reaction -- maybe from a bad day. Whatever the case, it's a basic rule of the internet not to blow up into angsty rage, because you'll always, always look like a fool. And it's a basic rule of any company you work for that you represent the company. She failed enomously at both those things.

I just looked up the tweet, and jeez is it patronising. It's "middle class angst" rather than "someone who's tired of being maligned day in and day out".

 

Aaaanyway...

[Gorem.8104]

14 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

This sums it up.

@Dareus.3091, they had a new headwriter for Season 4, and I, personally, think it totally paid off, because the previous season (Season 3) was - apart from some of the map designs - mostly awful (Balthazar, Lazarus, Livia, the Shining Blade all got butchered).

Unfortunately, she had to go after an unfortunate Twitter incident, so a new headwriter took over - who did an excellent job... until someone decided that Season 5 (the Icebrood Saga) had to be cut short (obviously due to the suddenly announced 3rd expansion). So everything after Bjora Marches felt super rushed, and the ending was a complete disaster in terms of dialogue, story, and presentation.

 

Honestly it makes IBS feel so weird. The main story about Dragons of Ice and Fire, has nothing on Fire really Prim wakes up, does a little dance, doesn't speak then dies. Meanwhile the only zone we have is all about Charr and has nothing to do with either Dragon, we are all farming Charr and ignore the existence of the dragon entirely cept for the end where we fight Frostgorge sounds boss we've fought thousands of times. (I Really feel like Drakkar shoulda come after this to make some sense to the fact that the war was still on even though we ended the whispers already, I feel like Drizzlewood coast was meant to be very different). And then Chap 5 just sort of happens. 
Never gonna forget LW4's long fight with Kralk, our failed attempts and eventual chase into the fricken' mists with ghosts all banding together to beat the thing, bring him out of there with islands ripped from the mists and going inside the kill his heart after you make his body crystallise above all while fighting with Aurene the whole way and seeing her take part throughout the entire story flying above you and helping out. 
Before just sitting out the entire next story cept for dialogue dumps. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Gorem.8104

[ugrakarma.9416]

3 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 

Honestly it makes IBS feel so weird. The main story about Dragons of Ice and Fire, has nothing on Fire really Prim wakes up, does a little dance, doesn't speak then dies. Meanwhile the only zone we have is all about Charr and has nothing to do with either Dragon, we are all farming Charr and ignore the existence of the dragon entirely cept for the end where we fight Frostgorge sounds boss we've fought thousands of times. (I Really feel like Drakkar shoulda come after this to make some sense to the fact that the war was still on even though we ended the whispers already, I feel like Drizzlewood coast was meant to be very different). And then Chap 5 just sort of happens. 
Never gonna forget LW4's long fight with Kralk, our failed attempts and eventual chase into the fricken' mists with ghosts all banding together to beat the thing, bring him out of there with islands ripped from the mists and going inside the kill his heart after you make his body crystallise above all while fighting with Aurene the whole way and seeing her take part throughout the entire story flying above you and helping out. 
Before just sitting out the entire next story cept for dialogue dumps. 

Another problem caused by "sudden change of direction". suddenly "woa, stop all these ibs stuff and go for EoD".

.....

The amount of AP points, rewards and skins, really make me suspect that IBS - Champions originally intended to be long and bigger, probabably 2 or 3 maps.

[Doggie.3184]

It was okay aside from the buggy Kralk and Sniper fights kicking me constantly from the instance. Anything's better than the painful PoF writing and it's Balthazar plot. His final battle didn't really make sense and that made no use of the army you built up. They did a better job than that with the ending of Ice Brood Saga as far as making use of NPCs you bring together. It feels like the LS is what the actual PoF story should've been (but still ends way too abruptly and mindlessly) I'm all for the 'building an army' plot as a big Suikoden fan.

I've gotten pretty exhausted of the main story characters at this point though, I just don't care about any of them anymore, lol. And the disney goofyness gets old. I hope the Cantha story is darker and more serious with a mostly new team. 

Worst thing of season 4 is redoing the LS for achievement made me remember how bad of a zone Thunderhead Peaks is. Don't believe I've ever touched it after the first time till then and may never again.

[Fangoth.4503]

On 2/11/2022 at 11:48 AM, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

The first half of Season 5/The Icebrood Saga fared somewhat well, but the latter parts...not so much. 

The-Content-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named

[Telgum.6071]

It's not a MMO if your character isn't a legendary hero and the errand boy at the same time.