Nerf confirmed for Renegade, Firebrand, and Scourge with Expansion launch

[anbujackson.9564]

8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 

Oh, really? Try to play like that, and see how far you're going to get. (hint: not very far).

 

 

? Renegade uses F4 for alac, thats 1 button. Firebrand uses two Mantras and the elite shout, if he takes it, for quickness.

Of course you have to use them off CD (except mantra of solace where you need to watch out for ICD). But isnt that painfully obvious? I never said that you just have to use them once in one fight. The point is that you can spam them and their boons with low effort. Everyone is saying how easy it is to get boons nowadays. And using like 2 skills off CD for 1 boon (especially stuff like quickness and alac) is pretty much the lowest effort it can be.

And then you see EoD specs where you pulse quickness in shroud (harbringer) or simply use 1 pulsing field (catalyst). Guess the devs think too thats its still too hard to provide boons.

Edited February 16, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[Astralporing.1957]

The problem was never really in how easy it is to provide boons. The primary problems are in how:

- classes are able to give support while also dealing significant damage

- support is divided among many classes (you need specific combos of classes for perma boon upkeep, so when you set up a group you don't think about single independent support slots, but about sets of those, which makes group make-up more rigid)

(both above are a result of anet being afraid of introducing another support Chrono - personally i don;t see why, because what they introduced to replace it was way more problematic than Chrono ever was)

and, finally, in how boons themselves are just way too strong, making the whole group composition revolve completely around suppor choices, with everything else being a far secondary.

[draxynnic.3719]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

(both above are a result of anet being afraid of introducing another support Chrono - personally i don;t see why, because what they introduced to replace it was way more problematic than Chrono ever was)

Yeah, honestly, as long as there are alternatives to chrono, I don't think it's necessarily problematic to have quickness and alacrity coming from chrono as long as it isn't also doing massive DPS and providing all the other support that the party needs. Chrono was problematic because in its heyday it was literally the only way to get permanent quickness and alacrity, and as much as some people claim they shouldn't be, the endgame bosses are calibrated on having pretty high uptimes of those boons. In the current environment, pre-nerf chrono would probably be fine - it'd be an option when combined with a healer that provides might like druid or tempest, but so would firebrigade, and a bunch of other combinations post-EoD.

[The Boz.2038]

17 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Also, scourge can share might (BiP, dessicate, Ghastly breach), prot (spectral ring) and regen (mark of blood) pretty well if you're ready to invest into that.

"Has access to a boon" and "can provide boon to the party" are not the same, lol. The standard for might is "25 stacks, 100% uptime". Necro can't share might. The standard for protection is "100% uptime". Necro can't share protection. But yay for regeneration!

[Loke.1429]

and if they dont nerf (perma/high uptime) stealth in wvw, feces for brains gameplay

Edited February 16, 2022 by Loke.1429

[Mell.4873]

14 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yeah, honestly, as long as there are alternatives to chrono, I don't think it's necessarily problematic to have quickness and alacrity coming from chrono as long as it isn't also doing massive DPS and providing all the other support that the party needs. Chrono was problematic because in its heyday it was literally the only way to get permanent quickness and alacrity, and as much as some people claim they shouldn't be, the endgame bosses are calibrated on having pretty high uptimes of those boons. In the current environment, pre-nerf chrono would probably be fine - it'd be an option when combined with a healer that provides might like druid or tempest, but so would firebrigade, and a bunch of other combinations post-EoD.

Yeah they should revert some of the chrono changes, just making the Wells play similar to specter. Boons when to collapse them. 

Right now even 100% quickness uptime is very hard on chrono even with 100% boon duration due to the need to keep clones alive long enough to shatter them. Mirage doesn't suffer this problem with alacrity since you can ambush anytime. 

[Astralporing.1957]

12 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Yeah they should revert some of the chrono changes, just making the Wells play similar to specter. Boons when to collapse them. 

Make them apply boons on each pulse, not just on the last one. And add a trait in Chronomancer traitline that if selected will allow chrono to "drag" the wells along (changing them from ground targeted AoE into a pulsing aura around chrono).

[Jski.6180]

6 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Make them apply boons on each pulse, not just on the last one. And add a trait in Chronomancer traitline that if selected will allow chrono to "drag" the wells along (changing them from ground targeted AoE into a pulsing aura around chrono).

They should of keeped chrono alacrity only maybe make mazr the quickness class. They kind of need to do that for all of the elite spec. 1 quickness 1 alacrity and 1 pure dps. If they add in a 4 elite spec i am not sure what to do with that one this is a major problem anet is making by only balancing the game off of 2 boons now.

Anet has got to go back to all hot and pof elite spec and re-balance them for the new mind set or anet is doomed to make eod elite spec the only viable ones for a lot of classes.

[Zacchary.6183]

On 2/16/2022 at 3:02 PM, Loke.1429 said:

and if they dont nerf (perma/high uptime) stealth in wvw, feces for brains gameplay

Stop wearing glass and one-spamming?

[Sigmoid.7082]

It's going to be interesting. I'm expecting complaints. To paraphrase a pretty decent quote: when you are accustomed to being OP, being balanced feels like an over-nerf. 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

It's going to be interesting. I'm expecting complaints. To paraphrase a pretty decent quote: when you are accustomed to being OP, being balanced feels like an over-nerf. 

 

Conversely, when people are used to something being OP, something can be balanced and people will keep claiming it's OP.

I could see fractals especially being susceptible to this - since gearing for fractals isn't trivial for everyone, so as long as FB, rene and scourge aren't absolutely gutted, you're probably going to keep seeing a lot of them for a while.

[Mell.4873]

On 2/17/2022 at 11:55 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Make them apply boons on each pulse, not just on the last one. And add a trait in Chronomancer traitline that if selected will allow chrono to "drag" the wells along (changing them from ground targeted AoE into a pulsing aura around chrono).

Hmm maybe but I think it's fine as a well, I mean chrono is a not a front line melee class even if it want to be with Sword. I guess you could make them have no caste time so they don't interrupt the shield block.

That would make a sort of tank/support, this is essentially how I play it anyway when I support.

[Loke.1429]

On 2/18/2022 at 3:18 AM, Zacchary.6183 said:

Stop wearing glass and one-spamming?

stop trolling

[Astralporing.1957]

On 2/18/2022 at 10:52 PM, Mell.4873 said:

Hmm maybe but I think it's fine as a well, I mean chrono is a not a front line melee class even if it want to be with Sword.

Doesn't matter. The game mechanics strongly encourage everyone to stack in same spot in melee range anyway.

The current problem with wells is how they are fine only in extremely stationary fights, but start to become a disability as soon as the group starts to need to move a bit more. As such, having wells pulse boons (to make them give at least partial effect during any movement), or having them pulse from Chrono, instead of from specific location on the ground (so Chrono can easily reposition the effect when the group needs to move) would heavily improve the situation - especially for fractals, which are far more mobile compared to raids.

 

[hash.8462]

Delete... I've posted  in the wrong discussion... sorry 😕

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by hash.8462

[Alcatraznc.3869]

More than the nerf, I'm more interested to see if this will allow more spec to be allowed in party.

 

If despite Anet's effort to nerf those 3, we will still bring them without any replacement, then it wouldnt change anything at all. 

[LucianDK.8615]

Considering the currently known fragile state of the Harbinger, I am quite worried for the future of the Necromancer if they are totally hosing the Scourge.

The most obvious way to hit both Renegade and the Scourge at once would be to undo the torment buff. Or hopefully redesigning the torment condition, as its conditional extra damage application either makes torment OP or underpowered.

[hash.8462]

2 hours ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

The most obvious way to hit both Renegade and the Scourge at once would be to undo the torment buff. Or hopefully redesigning the torment condition, as its conditional extra damage application either makes torment OP or underpowered.

Part of the problem comes from Tormenting runes (expecially since there is no competitive split).

[LucianDK.8615]

1 hour ago, hash.8462 said:

Part of the problem comes from Tormenting runes (expecially since there is no competitive split).

What would your oppinion be about the Tormenting runes?

Edited February 21, 2022 by LucianDK.8615

[Arheundel.6451]

The funny thing is people surprised to see nerfs to their "loved" professions...FOTM specs get always nerfed..soon or later all FOTM specs receive the rightful nerfs.

I am expecting Renegade and Scrapper to see nerfs in WvW soon or later, way too dominants and oppressive specs

[LucianDK.8615]

30 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

The funny thing is people surprised to see nerfs to their "loved" professions...FOTM specs get always nerfed..soon or later all FOTM specs receive the rightful nerfs.

I am expecting Renegade and Scrapper to see nerfs in WvW soon or later, way too dominants and oppressive specs

I think its more a question if you have ok fallbacks. Like scrappers can fall back on holosmith. So they are not totally hosed.

[otto.5684]

This seems like a knee jerk reaction. It is already difficult how new elites will perform. Sure, some aspects of FB, reng and scourge do need a tone down, but considering the timing of the changes, this will end-up being FB mantra PvP balance level of disaster. Anet kept pushing mantras in PvP to be reliant on the final charge, then removed the final charge without adjusting the mantras back. The heal mantra literally does not heal in pvp.

 

If Anet kittens something now it is going to be centuries to fix. The balance team performance, since PoF release, has been crap.

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

The funny thing is people surprised to see nerfs to their "loved" professions...FOTM specs get always nerfed..soon or later all FOTM specs receive the rightful nerfs.

I am expecting Renegade and Scrapper to see nerfs in WvW soon or later, way too dominants and oppressive specs

Fotm?. I think that's a understatement more like

Flavour of the Past 4 years. 😂 Although will have to wait and see if its rightful. I do forsee it not being enough. 

Saying that I suspose guardian is getting willbender so we can say theyve paid in karma 😂

 

 

[Puck.3697]

8 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

This seems like a knee jerk reaction. It is already difficult how new elites will perform. Sure, some aspects of FB, reng and scourge do need a tone down, but considering the timing of the changes, this will end-up being FB mantra PvP balance level of disaster. Anet kept pushing mantras in PvP to be reliant on the final charge, then removed the final charge without adjusting the mantras back. The heal mantra literally does not heal in pvp.

 

If Anet kittens something now it is going to be centuries to fix. The balance team performance, since PoF release, has been crap.

I don't think it was a disaster as I think it was intended. 

Firebrand and scourges mechanics are just too unfun in a Spvp enviroment so they were torn out by force. 

The disaster was their design. They held so much power creep and overbloated mechanics they were never gonna be stable in spvp. 

It was very important to just outright remove them. But now they still need dealing with in PvE play. 

10 man boons dropping to 5 man is a indirect major buff to firebrand as it has sheer dominance in 5 man play. It also nerfs ele and druid by 50%. 

Scourge is the only source of 10 man barrier. It'll need bringing down if we intend it to hold such s role as nothings gonna compete with on that level. 

[Zacchary.6183]

2 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I don't think it was a disaster as I think it was intended. 

Firebrand and scourges mechanics are just too unfun in a Spvp enviroment so they were torn out by force. 

The disaster was their design. They held so much power creep and overbloated mechanics they were never gonna be stable in spvp. 

It was very important to just outright remove them. But now they still need dealing with in PvE play. 

10 man boons dropping to 5 man is a indirect major buff to firebrand as it has sheer dominance in 5 man play. It also nerfs ele and druid by 50%. 

Scourge is the only source of 10 man barrier. It'll need bringing down if we intend it to hold such s role as nothings gonna compete with on that level. 

Thief also has 10-man might and fury, not that it means much since they both are dealt out like candy. If they are going to remove the 10-man barrier they'll probably remove DE's 10-man.