When is Celestial getting nerfed?

[Hotride.2187]

13 hours ago, Swagger.1459 said:

try spvp so you can have “fair” duels, bc you’re not going to find it in wvw

Ah yes. When you encounter cele, just run away when solo. Or hope someone from your team will happen to +1. Or if you are fighting a few condi bunkers (quite likely a few cele builds among them) pray the roamers on your team outnumber or outskill the opponents, or bunker themselves.

Also spvp is not a place for 1v1. wvw roamers on the other hand will respect a 1v1 often enough, especially if you ask them to (or if you act like you want them to). Saying that wvw has no room for 1v1 balance, as an argument against nerfing cele, already tells me you agree its imbalanced 1v1.

Also just lol about the 1 shot mesmer comment. Compared to condi bunker mesmers, successful power mesmers are like 1 in a 100, if not fewer. That build requires a high level of timing and spacing, to beat good players on good builds. Cele staff mesmer requires autoattacking in comparison.

Anyway, who cares. Its not like the rest of the game is overflowing with balance. In the end when something is boring you avoid it. When small scale roaming turns completely into bunkers, cele or otherswise, I'll go do something else. Expecting the devs to balance the game in meaningful ways is a lost cause for the years I've been playing.

Or maybe alliances will shuffle the pvp ganker guilds enough for me to be able to frequently duel semi-intersting or even intesting builds. And there is always armistice, when you aren't getting interrupted by some shithead.

 

[Mik.3401]

22 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

The amount of defense cele provides is overstated. Here's an example of incoming power damage while roaming. (I'm running cele gear)

https://imgur.com/a/p8oPYBY

That's 8k damage in a ~0.5s window (2 out of 10 rapid fire hits), and it's a pretty average for a power sb. All told, the cele gear is buying maybe an extra 1 or 2 hits - possibly enough to not die before stun break and double dodge. It provides maybe an extra 500-1000 healing per cycle, and maybe an extra 1-4s of boon duration depending on the skill. That's hardly OP when considering the kind of burst damage it's facing in return.

Considering I need to get into melee range, tag the opponent with condi, then dance around and survive for ~15-20s (way more if they cleanse), all while they threaten to kill me if they ever land 1 or 2 good hits, I think it's a fair trade.

 

A couple more hits before death and additional healing even if small make huge difference. Typical power build would be obliterated in a second by such attacks. I think the tanky condi meta makes us forget it. Also - in good hands cele can spike almost as hard as power builds. It can be hard at times but the option is there.

[Stx.4857]

Cele does exactly what its supposed to.  It makes you versatile, independent, a jack of all trades.  Its not good in group pve, and I doubt its that great for group pvp although I dont really know what wvw zergs use.  

 

its good in solo pve, and solo pvp or small group pvp.  What is wrong with that?  Berserker has been meta for power pve dps since the dawn of time, but its not meta for everything...  same with cele.  

 

All I am hearing from this thread is:  Cele is good in small scale pvp, and its annoying to fight against, please nerf.

[Kuma.1503]

Cele is a bit bonkers in WvW. Speaking as someone who abuses it. 

Leave it alone in PvE though. I like what it adds to build diversity there. 

[Swagger.1459]

5 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Ah yes. When you encounter cele, just run away when solo. Or hope someone from your team will happen to +1. Or if you are fighting a few condi bunkers (quite likely a few cele builds among them) pray the roamers on your team outnumber or outskill the opponents, or bunker themselves.

Also spvp is not a place for 1v1. wvw roamers on the other hand will respect a 1v1 often enough, especially if you ask them to (or if you act like you want them to). Saying that wvw has no room for 1v1 balance, as an argument against nerfing cele, already tells me you agree its imbalanced 1v1.

Also just lol about the 1 shot mesmer comment. Compared to condi bunker mesmers, successful power mesmers are like 1 in a 100, if not fewer. That build requires a high level of timing and spacing, to beat good players on good builds. Cele staff mesmer requires autoattacking in comparison.

Anyway, who cares. Its not like the rest of the game is overflowing with balance. In the end when something is boring you avoid it. When small scale roaming turns completely into bunkers, cele or otherswise, I'll go do something else. Expecting the devs to balance the game in meaningful ways is a lost cause for the years I've been playing.

Or maybe alliances will shuffle the pvp ganker guilds enough for me to be able to frequently duel semi-intersting or even intesting builds. And there is always armistice, when you aren't getting interrupted by some shithead.

 

Well, if someone has to “run away” from a player in cele, then they are probably not experienced or good enough. So they should probably make their own duel room, and use the various spaces outside of wvw to practice so they can strengthen their resolve and not “run away”. Yes, I’d suggest for some to stay in AB as well, good point! 

 

And yet another person who thinks balancing for 1v1 should be done in a team based game… There are plenty of single player games out there that may be more your speeds. And how discounted do you have to be with a mode to not understand the difference between WvW and 1v1?
 

That’s right, most of us don’t care, and we definitely don’t care about duel outcomes. If someone loses to, what they think is the gear, then they need to get better, not ask the devs to change the game for them. But, ya know, human nature to blame everyone and everything else, and it’s certainly difficult for some to admit that someone may have been better. Alas, true competitive players will work on getting better and not make excuses. 

 

[Dezember.1295]

24 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Cele is a bit bonkers in WvW. Speaking as someone who abuses it. 

Leave it alone in PvE though. I like what it adds to build diversity there. 

Hmm, is this a thing? :o Are there any examples of WvW gear scaling differently than PvE gear as things are right now?

I am aware of that there are (many) examples of ability adjustments, number-wise, but I do not think I've ever heard of gear stats have actually being different from their PvE version.

[Redfeather.6401]

I don't understand what changed to make it so overpowered as people say. It just got concentration and expertise added to make it more attractive compared to gear focused on support or condition damage. Is it just overpowered in making a condition build more tanky? Trailblazer, plaguedoctor and ritualist are probably doing that too.

[Obtena.7952]

18 hours ago, Redfeather.6401 said:

I don't understand what changed to make it so overpowered as people say. It just got concentration and expertise added to make it more attractive compared to gear focused on support or condition damage. Is it just overpowered in making a condition build more tanky? Trailblazer, plaguedoctor and ritualist are probably doing that too.

I think what actually has changed is that it's a hard reality for some people to realize that they are being REKT by a stat set that simply increases the baseline. That somehow, such a prefix should not be able to beat their fine-tuned, mix/match optimized WvW builds.

[Stx.4857]

To be fair, simply adding expertise and concentration to celestial did make it much better than it was before, as those stats are incredibly important.  However, I still feel the stat is balanced due to the low amounts of power and condition damage.  There is a reason it isn't used in group PvE.

 

This still just comes down to people losing in PvP, and celestial stat is just the best thing they could think of to point at and blame for their loss.  

[The Boz.2038]

3 minutes ago, Stx.4857 said:

There is a reason it isn't used in group PvE.

The reason is mostly raids and tanking, tbh. On classes that can use it well (guardian, revenant, elementalist...) it works *really* well in OW, fractals, strikes, etc.

[Stx.4857]

1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

The reason is mostly raids and tanking, tbh. On classes that can use it well (guardian, revenant, elementalist...) it works *really* well in OW, fractals, strikes, etc.

And all the meta options work really well too, if not much better..  so why nerf it?  

[The Boz.2038]

Honestly? No reason. Some people just see "much stat" and go "must nerf", ignoring how both offensive and defensive stats in the game are multiplicative (power thrice so).

[Telgum.6071]

18 hours ago, Redfeather.6401 said:

I don't understand what changed to make it so overpowered as people say. It just got concentration and expertise added to make it more attractive compared to gear focused on support or condition damage. Is it just overpowered in making a condition build more tanky? Trailblazer, plaguedoctor and ritualist are probably doing that too.

Not only even more tanky, also having way more boon stack than before.

[Salt Mode.3780]

I mean they should probably add celestial amulet back in sPvP then considering how balanced it is of a statline.

[The Boz.2038]

7 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I mean they should probably add celestial amulet back in sPvP then considering how balanced it is of a statline.

On this, they... probably don't want to, not because it's "too strong", but because it makes fights take really long, and turns matches into boring stalemates decided by whose thief capped what first.

[Salt Mode.3780]

27 minutes ago, Stx.4857 said:

To be fair, simply adding expertise and concentration to celestial did make it much better than it was before, as those stats are incredibly important.  However, I still feel the stat is balanced due to the low amounts of power and condition damage.  There is a reason it isn't used in group PvE.

 

This still just comes down to people losing in PvP, and celestial stat is just the best thing they could think of to point at and blame for their loss.  

Its not uncommon for e-specs these days to fully stack 25 might, fury, + prot uptimes. A set that has the same amount of boon duration as minstrels  increases the duration of said buffs which allows them to rotate into those said buffs again to be reapplied. 
This is not the case if you went strictly zerker/maraud/dragon, nor are you able to do it with trailblaze.

Problem with celestial stats atm is anything that can abuse boons capitalize on these stats, again you are getting a whole set + 3/4 of another set of stats. Mind that the buff to celestial is also a buff to celestial foods as well, +45 to all stats on food is far better then any other food buffs that can be given because other food buffs gives you 2 stats rather then 9.

Being able to have +750 power and condi (25 might) on celestial stats far outtrades any "optimized" statline given. 

Adding concentration and expertise to the statline was just too much. Again if celestial stats are "not problematic" then they should def introduce it back to sPvP for more build diversity because clearly the argument stems from that.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

27 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I mean they should probably add celestial amulet back in sPvP then considering how balanced it is of a statline.

They removed it from SPvP originally not because it was OP (it wasn't), but because limited number of stats available in that mode (and players' inability to mix and match them) made them the go-to option for hybrid builds. And later, because even the significantly nerfed compared to the PvE version, tre reinstated nerfed cele still turned out a best choice (due to again, a very limited number of stat selection choices in that mode) for bunker builds. And Anet (as well as many players) found out they really, really do not like bunker builds in SPvP, as those tended to turn fights into extremely boring snoozefests. They removed a number of other stat sets due to that very reason then - i.e. Clerics.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Zyreva.1078]

29 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

They removed it from SPvP originally not because it was OP (it wasn't), but because limited number of stats available in that mode (and players' inability to mix and match them) made them the go-to option for hybrid builds. And later, because even the significantly nerfed compared to the PvE version, tre reinstated nerfed cele still turned out a best choice (due to again, a very limited number of stat selection choices in that mode) for bunker builds. And Anet (as well as many players) found out they really, really do not like bunker builds in SPvP, as those tended to turn fights into extremely boring snoozefests. They removed a number of other stat sets due to that very reason then - i.e. Clerics.

The original version (which btw was the same as pre buff cele in WvW) was pretty op in PvP. It wasn't uncommon to see teams run 4-5 cele builds at some time (thief usually being the only exception). And when even nerfed cele stats are viable in Pvp, it just reinforces the point that cele was perfectly viable in WvW too before the completely unneccessary buffs.

If the current version of cele got added to sPvP, it would most likely replace any other amulet and lead to a cele only meta. Which yes, would be pretty boring and unhealthy. Kinda like it is in WvW too ...

Edited April 7, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Astralporing.1957]

9 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

The original version (which btw was the same as pre buff cele in WvW) was pretty op in PvP. It wasn't uncommon to see teams run 4-5 cele builds at some time (thief usually being the only exception). And when even nerfed cele stats are viable in Pvp, it just reinforces the point that cele was perfectly viable in WvW too before the completely unneccessary buffs.

It's not that it was good. It was that choices were so limited, that other optione were worse. Notice, that at that time cele was practically not used at all in WvW - because players in that mode did have access to far more options. And those options were actually better.

 

9 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

If the current version of cele got added to sPvP, it would most likely replace any other amulet and lead to a cele only meta. Which yes, would be pretty boring and unhealthy. Kinda like it is in WvW too ...

Yes, but, again, not due to how good cele stat set is, but due to other, options just plain not being accessible in SpvP. And due to cele (again) really being good for bunker builds, and SPvP not revolving around killing other players, but around defending points.

Frankly, the builds Anet wanted to remove were not all that dangerous to other players. They were just pretty much unkillable unless focused 3v1. And they were a massive defence multiplier when +1ing due to having either aoe heal capability, or other group defence options. Or both.

Notice btw, how a full team of such builds had only one chance of winning the game - at the very beginning - because while it was perfectly capable of defending points, it was also completely unable to capture them against any kind of defence. As such, the teams needed to have non-cele aggressive builds in their setups as well.

Basically, cele was a problem in SPvP due to specific issues with design of that mode, not due to that stat set being OP. Hint: the other stat i mentioned in my previous post (Cleric) had a very similar effect on the matches, even though it was a stat set with a much lower amount of points total. Does that mean Cleric is too OP of a stat and need to be nerfed?

[MrForz.1953]

The old Celestial era was complete with different trait packages, dating all the way from the older trait system allowing you to pick previous tier traits. You could as example, make use of the Engineer's Incendiary Powder and Modified Ammunition at the same time. The stat set lost its weight over time with trait placement and modifications and only a few class afterwards made use of it. It was part of the problem in days of old but not the problem itself.

Edited April 7, 2022 by MrForz.1953

[Zyreva.1078]

19 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's not that it was good. It was that choices were so limited, that other optione were worse. Notice, that at that time cele was practically not used at all in WvW - because players in that mode did have access to far more options. And those options were actually better.

Cele was absolutely used in WvW. Sometimes more and sometimes less, but it was never unplayable. And stuff like zerk or mara - some of the very few other combinations worth running in WvW - always have been accessible in PvP too. More options don't matter when most options are useless. Cele was fine. Without free boon and condi duration.

I'm very well aware that most stats got removed from sPvP to get rid of bunkers and not because they were op, but then again, the current version of cele never existed in sPvP, so why does it even matter?

Edited April 7, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Cele was absolutely used in WvW. Sometimes more and sometimes less, but it was never unplayable.

I did not say it was unplayable. I said that at the time it was overrepresented in SPvP, it wasn't being used all that much in WvW. And even in cases where it was used, there were usually better options available.

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

I'm very well aware that most stats got removed from sPvP to get rid of bunkers and not because they were op, but then again, the current version of cele never existed in sPvP, so why does it even matter?

Because some people try to use absence of that stat from SPvP as an argument that it is OP, when in reality its absence has nothing to do with this at all.

[Panda.1967]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That somehow, such a prefix should not be able to beat their fine-tuned, mix/match optimized WvW builds.

And they refuse to accept reality, that no matter how you go about it, when you min/max you will always have a weak point. Someone who is well balanced can always exploit that weak point. In PvP it is always going to be more effective to make a balanced and versatile build than to make a one trick pony. It doesn’t matter how overpowered and broken that trick is, if you run across a good player with a well balanced build you are probably going to lose. That is just a fact of PvP.

[Astralporing.1957]

13 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

And they refuse to accept reality, that no matter how you go about it, when you min/max you will always have a weak point. Someone who is well balanced can always exploit that weak point. In PvP it is always going to be more effective to make a balanced and versatile build than to make a one trick pony. It doesn’t matter how overpowered and broken that trick is, if you run across a good player with a well balanced build you are probably going to lose. That is just a fact of PvP.

That's partly true. Indeed, in PvP environment, in 1:1 encounters glass cannons and full bunkers are generally less overall useful than hybrid builds (although notice how even in small groups that starts to change very fast). And that's one of the reasons why celestials were popular in SPvP. It is also true however that some stats are more important than others even in hybrid builds, so in WvW generally it was still better to make a hybrid build out of combination of several different stat sets than go celestial. Celestial is just a lazy option for those that either can't be bothered to do minmaxing for a more proper build, or for those that lack the knowledge to do so.

In WvW builds that can utilize celestials to the fullest, and would not be better suited with a different gear sets are extremely rare. And if there happens to be a problem with them, it's usually due to the build itself, not the celestial stats they wear.

[Reborn.2934]

Quote

When is Celestial getting nerfed?

 

 

I HOPE NEVER

 

but i keep small "basket" after the silence for WvW ...

 

Why? Because Celestial armor and weapons is one of the core materials in-game that separates the dedicated gw2 players from the no commited to gw2 players!

 

Also, the problem in roaming or the recently pve exploits after EoD is not the celectial overall better stats but ... the OP skills and the lack of the soft caps on some stats (feature article that i am still writting ).

 

the proof comes to you with 2 different pages. One for PvE and One for WvW. Read and don't open again this subject because the only thing that you are doing is to prove that you don't know the gw2 as game.

 

PvE & WvW Godlike Guardian =>  39 stacks on burning ! 

 

WvW roaming "Condition God". => changed from celestial to Traiblazer for better results

 

Both Pages have recently video proofs and please for one more time.

 

STOP BLAMING THE ONLY THING THAT IS NOT GUILTY FOR OP IN WvW ROAMING OR PVE!

 

p.s.  Enjoy the OP skills of the new EoD Expansion's professions guys until the correction and i stop here because if i continue it will be my 2nd ban on the new forums 😎

Edited April 8, 2022 by Reborn.2934