Please remove damaging conditions

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

They arent fun, no one like fighting them, they are lazy builds to play. Lets make pvp great again and just delete them all.

[Kozumi.5816]

5 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

They arent fun, no one like fighting them, they are lazy builds to play. Lets make pvp great again and just delete them all.

"Play the game not the UI" - Anet founders.

I've stared at my debuff bar fighting condi builds since the Dhumfire patch.

[Ragebru.1397]

10 years of the same maps. 

10 years of bunker metas.

Now we want to make PvP even more stale, with one damage archetype? No thank you.

 

I'd be inclined to say that condi needs a serious overhaul, but not like that. Necro has access to nearly all condi, which should not be a thing. Meanwhile, specs like condi engi can manage to tick 4-5k for burning, while guardian can pull 10-15k burning /tick. I think they should be buffing these less relevant condi classes- such as engi, warrior, thief to be able to perform at the same magnitude as necro and guardian.

 

edit: bleeding for example, should be ticking way more frequently, and should be much easier to stack (harder to remove). Poison builds tend to have long CD's (thief/ranger) and are unable to reapply pressure after cleansing. Necro can pull 20 stacks of torment on a target, in the same time that it takes an engi to apply 5-10 stacks of bleeding. There is a horrid imbalance in which classes can effectively apply condis, and those that cannot. 

 

Take the new condi willbender builds, you can easily apply a 10k burn- have it cleansed, and nearly immediately have it reapplied. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Ragebru.1397

[grx.8714]

They should just make them as DoTs and not as burst like in every other mmo. 

The more the stay on you the more damage you get at the end. And I don't understand bleeding and burning, they have no identity, burning just ticks for 10k in barely few seconds, so why bleeding exist? Poison has the heal reduction, torment is about moving, confusion about skill casting.

I don't understand cripple either, when chill is 100 times stronger.

They should get rid of condis that do the exact same thing, remove the burst aspect of them and rework them once for all.

 

Now we are not in a condi focused meta, but slowly we are getting there again.

Harbis will play condi 100% now after nerfs, same for specter which is still good in the hands of top players like sindrener who plays power, but condi right now seems stronger.

Mechs are starting to play condi again.

Lots of untamed, unless you are boyce or rom, just go condi because it's easier.

Virtuoso is still bad, but condi is 100 times better than power.

Willbender and bladesworn are the only ones who runs power effectively.

 

[Lost Elegy.9276]

20 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

"Play the game not the UI" - Anet founders.

I've stared at my debuff bar fighting condi builds since the Dhumfire patch.

 

The biggest issue with condition builds is how little you FEEL their presence. When a Norn runs at me with a sword and hits me, I see and understand it quite simply. Big monkey hit me with stick. It hurt. GOT IT. Condis? Completely different story. Old man hobbles over to you and points a finger at the ground. A skeleton from the afterlife starts moaning. Next thing you know,  you suddenly have 7+ of every negative status effect in the game and you either cleanse them or you die. How am I supposed to register that? Is the old man the threat? Or the ground he's pointing at? Why is a skeleton moaning? What's this weird, massive circle on the ground? Why do I feel bad all of a sudden? I can kill a god, but standing in a green circle does this much to me?

 

Tl;dr - The difference between how they feel is a huge issue. If something is going to hurt me as much as a Norn with a greatsword made out of a literal galaxy, it should probably have the same visual and audio weight to it.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Lost Elegy.9276

[Despot.3048]

I mean. Is looking at your debuffs hard? Flick your eyes down and see how many stacks or what you have on you.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Condies  wouldn't be as bad if we could move the bar to the middle of the screen. 

I want my eye focus on the middle of the screen where the action is. 

Having to constantly look down to the condi bar sucks. In addition to look at my dmg taken to see if the 15 stacks of bleed are deadly or can be ignored. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Sahne.6950]

2 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

They arent fun, no one like fighting them, they are lazy builds to play. Lets make pvp great again and just delete them all.

NO.

Believe it or not Condis are a good thing for the overall balance of the game. Condibuilds keep certain other builds in check. Some builds can only really be countered by condis. For Example take Powerherald. It is not as present as it was before EoD, but it is still a force to be reckoned with. This build is hardcountered by conditions. If we would simply remove conditionbuilds from the game there would be a HUUUUUGE balance issue. Suddenly all the classes that are weak to condi will be blatantly overpowered because you removed their only counter.

I advise anyone having problems with condibuilds to either take more cleanses or play a diffrent build that is good at cleansing. If you play a build that has good cleansing you will suddenly notice that condis are by no means overpowered or have to be removed. Some people simply dont play alot of diffrent builds and the ones that they play might be vulnerable to condis. So they are heavily biased and think that condis are just straight up broken and unfun. If you play a build with good cleansing, you will notice that condis are actually pretty weak. I personally play alot of fireweaver and if i see a enemy that is using condis i am like: THIS IS FREE REAL ESTATE. Simply because i have a good build with alot of cleanses and know how and when to use those cleanses.

Some peoeple have yet to understand that you dont have to cleanse every single slow that is being applied to you. Sometimes it is better to tank thru the 5 second chill and Weakness to cleanse the big poisonspike that is coming right after. Especially in lowerelos people tend to spam their defense utilities to much and end up in a window, where they have nothing ready and will simply melt to condis.

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Arheundel.6451]

3 hours ago, grx.8714 said:

They should just make them as DoTs and not as burst like in every other mmo. 

The more the stay on you the more damage you get at the end. And I don't understand bleeding and burning, they have no identity, burning just ticks for 10k in barely few seconds, so why bleeding exist? Poison has the heal reduction, torment is about moving, confusion about skill casting.

I don't understand cripple either, when chill is 100 times stronger.

They should get rid of condis that do the exact same thing, remove the burst aspect of them and rework them once for all.

 

Now we are not in a condi focused meta, but slowly we are getting there again.

Harbis will play condi 100% now after nerfs, same for specter which is still good in the hands of top players like sindrener who plays power, but condi right now seems stronger.

Mechs are starting to play condi again.

Lots of untamed, unless you are boyce or rom, just go condi because it's easier.

Virtuoso is still bad, but condi is 100 times better than power.

Willbender and bladesworn are the only ones who runs power effectively.

 

Everybody and his dog goes condi because....only one stat required to do dmg while investing the rest in sustain stats...so 

[Sahne.6950]

Just now, Arheundel.6451 said:

Everybody and his dog goes condi because....only one stat required to do dmg while investing the rest in sustain stats...so 

What a good thing that we have free statselection in pvp...🙄

in pvp you cant even take a pure condibuild... you will always have poweraswell or some random Precision that does absolutely nothing for you....   You are mistaking this with the WvW forum i guess.

[disco.9302]

5 hours ago, Lost Elegy.9276 said:

Tl;dr - The difference between how they feel is a huge issue. If something is going to hurt me as much as a Norn with a greatsword made out of a literal galaxy, it should probably have the same visual and audio weight to it.

so you're saying that anything that's not a "norn with a greatsword" should be made much bigger and louder? Huge, obscenely noisy casters required.

[TheDarkness.6947]

3 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Condies  wouldn't be as bad if we could move the bar to the middle of the screen. 

 

 

For me I would take it even one step further and say that all conditions should all have a unique, noticable visual effect/animation that you can see without looking at an icon bar.  It’s very obvious when you’re burning, chilled, or poisoned.  Much less so if you’re bleeding or confused, for example.  Having to look at tiny icons subtracts from engagement, for me.  Makes it feel more like a spreadsheet battle or something.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

8 minutes ago, TheDarkness.6947 said:

 

For me I would take it even one step further and say that all conditions should all have a unique, noticable visual effect/animation that you can see without looking at an icon bar.  It’s very obvious when you’re burning, chilled, or poisoned.  Much less so if you’re bleeding or confused, for example.  Having to look at tiny icons subtracts from engagement, for me.  Makes it feel more like a spreadsheet battle or something.

Make all Icons transparent and give them a fixed location. Always visible. They will light up when you have that condi on you.

So we don't have a laser show rave party going on anymore. 

Do the same with boons and let us move the bars. 

Done. Condies fixed. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Sahne.6950]

21 minutes ago, TheDarkness.6947 said:

 

For me I would take it even one step further and say that all conditions should all have a unique, noticable visual effect/animation that you can see without looking at an icon bar.  It’s very obvious when you’re burning, chilled, or poisoned.  Much less so if you’re bleeding or confused, for example.  Having to look at tiny icons subtracts from engagement, for me.  Makes it feel more like a spreadsheet battle or something.

HAHA 😄

Dont get me wrong that would be awesome and much needed. BUT Please imagine it for one second. With all the animations already on you.... Infusions....IDK AEGIS...etc. And now add the visuals of a whoping number of 8 diffrent condis on you..... You will suddenly turn into a Supernova as soon as a harbinger starts bursting you xD

[Downstate.4697]

Condis arent a large issue. If they become relevent enough the meta will change accordingly. Using non damaging condis to prevent damaging condis from being cleared I think is what most people are upset about. Anet could increase sources of condi removal but that just further promotes a power meta. My advice is stop playing on node if you cant cleanse conditions on your own.

[Telgum.6071]

Ah yeah, builds with entirely defensive kits that can focus hard on survive because they can vomit conditions nonstop while also CCing and moving away and watch how you die because you only have two dodges and maybe three cleanses as much. What a fun and totally balanced gameplay /s

Edited April 6, 2022 by Telgum.6071
Typo

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

5 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Condies  wouldn't be as bad if we could move the bar to the middle of the screen. 

I want my eye focus on the middle of the screen where the action is. 

Having to constantly look down to the condi bar sucks. In addition to look at my dmg taken to see if the 15 stacks of bleed are deadly or can be ignored. 

That's really a good point. 

The fact that the damage fluctuates a lot is counterintuitive, I mean, in GW1 condi damage was fixed so as soon as you got burning, disease, deep wound, you know you had to cleanse it, bleeding on the other hand alone was meh. 

In here you have to look at the condis, look at the number of stacks and damage it does to decide if its worth a cleanse or not. 

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

ima chargin mah lazor

[Hotride.2187]

Tbh it adds mainly obnoxious builds to competitive. But its something else to build against and react to. So I wouldn't delete it.

[Hogwarts Zebra.8597]

Suppose you are fighting a power build. How do you decide when to dodge? Simple: you know which of their skills hit the hardest and dodge those. Most people seem to understand this. 

Now you are fighting a condi build. What do you do? Most definitely not what you did against power matchups, dear god no. Instead: you facetank everything, realize you're taking damage, panic spam all your dodges, die. 👌

[Hotride.2187]

34 minutes ago, Hogwarts Zebra.8597 said:

Suppose you are fighting a power build. How do you decide when to dodge? Simple: you know which of their skills hit the hardest and dodge those. Most people seem to understand this. 

Now you are fighting a condi build. What do you do? Most definitely not what you did against power matchups, dear god no. Instead: you facetank everything, realize you're taking damage, panic spam all your dodges, die. 👌

So which condi weaver skill do I dodge as spb, so I can go back to tickling the ele? Right, I kite the whole fire and earth attunements doing mostly no dmg and possibly leaving the contest circle. The "big hit" I do dodge is the 4 sec knockdown from air (which I know is coming from the air swap but I barely see the animation of)...

OK, OK, bad example I guess, condi weaver stacks burns from multiple sources. What about condi mirage? The autos of which of the 3 clones do I dodge? Wait maybe core necro. What do even dodge? Condi ranger, I guess the trap I didn't see get placed... if I'm lucky. Thief? Well obviously the burst from stealth, that is just thief 1:1.

But I can make a list like that for power specs too so not a big deal.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Lost Elegy.9276]

1 hour ago, Hotride.2187 said:

So which condi weaver skill do I dodge as spb, so I can go back to tickling the ele? Right, I kite the whole fire and earth attunements doing mostly no dmg and possibly leaving the contest circle. The "big hit" I do dodge is the 4 sec knockdown from air (which I know is coming from the air swap but I barely see the animation of)...

OK, OK, bad example I guess, condi weaver stacks burns from multiple sources. What about condi mirage? The autos of which of the 3 clones do I dodge? Wait maybe core necro. What do even dodge? Condi ranger, I guess the trap I didn't see get placed... if I'm lucky. Thief? Well obviously the burst from stealth, that is just thief 1:1.

But I can make a list like that for power specs too so not a big deal.

 

Honestly, I feel like this post gets closest to the real issue. Power builds have very obvious attacks to dodge. Mesmer? Dodge the shatter combo or block it. They typically daze you right before they do it to reduce your options. This clear understanding of what's dangerous and what isn't make power builds inherently more fun and rewarding to fight. Like a dark souls boss, you master the timing and see the improvement immediately.

 

Condition builds, since games as old as WoW, have had very wonky interactions with PvP. Warlock in old WoW literally won the fight by using 3 instant cast curses that would tick down your entire health bar. They spent the rest of the fight spamming Fear so you couldn't reach them. They weren't OP (Outside a specific patch) because everyone died before the 20 second DoTs finished their work. Combat was FAST. GW2 has a slightly different issue. Condition damage builds up from a wide range of sources, and the threat is from ALL of those sources, not specific attacks or bursts than can be dodged. Take Condi Mesmer, for example. Even if you systematically kill the illusions as you chase the player, they will still hit you with small DoTs that chip you down. It's practically unavoidable. Few condition builds will burst you down, but the constant damage feels very horrible to fight against. It makes the player feel very helpless to prevent it, even if they actually have the ability to win the fight.

 

There is a stark difference between fighting a Warrior, which feels very much like Dark Souls-esque PvP of winning through good dodge rolls and knowing when is safe to attack, and fighting a Necromancer who spends the fight swinging his stick in the air and attacks manifesting on top of you and applying a wide range of debuffs. It REALLY doesn't help that condition builds can do most of their damage at safe distances. The most comparable "annoying" power weapon that feels like fighting a condi build is the Mechanist Mortar Engi. They spam huge AoEs at you while a constant source of damage ticks away at your health bar. It's unrealistic to kill the mech, so you might as well just consider it a DoT. It's equally unrealistic to dodge all the mortar shots, given their AoE size.

 

Condi vs Power will always be a FEELING BAD argument more than any actual balance issue.

[Curennos.9307]

6 minutes ago, Lost Elegy.9276 said:

 

Honestly, I feel like this post gets closest to the real issue. Power builds have very obvious attacks to dodge. Mesmer? Dodge the shatter combo or block it. They typically daze you right before they do it to reduce your options. This clear understanding of what's dangerous and what isn't make power builds inherently more fun and rewarding to fight. Like a dark souls boss, you master the timing and see the improvement immediately.

 

Condition builds, since games as old as WoW, have had very wonky interactions with PvP. Warlock in old WoW literally won the fight by using 3 instant cast curses that would tick down your entire health bar. They spent the rest of the fight spamming Fear so you couldn't reach them. They weren't OP (Outside a specific patch) because everyone died before the 20 second DoTs finished their work. Combat was FAST. GW2 has a slightly different issue. Condition damage builds up from a wide range of sources, and the threat is from ALL of those sources, not specific attacks or bursts than can be dodged. Take Condi Mesmer, for example. Even if you systematically kill the illusions as you chase the player, they will still hit you with small DoTs that chip you down. It's practically unavoidable. Few condition builds will burst you down, but the constant damage feels very horrible to fight against. It makes the player feel very helpless to prevent it, even if they actually have the ability to win the fight.

 

There is a stark difference between fighting a Warrior, which feels very much like Dark Souls-esque PvP of winning through good dodge rolls and knowing when is safe to attack, and fighting a Necromancer who spends the fight swinging his stick in the air and attacks manifesting on top of you and applying a wide range of debuffs. It REALLY doesn't help that condition builds can do most of their damage at safe distances. The most comparable "annoying" power weapon that feels like fighting a condi build is the Mechanist Mortar Engi. They spam huge AoEs at you while a constant source of damage ticks away at your health bar. It's unrealistic to kill the mech, so you might as well just consider it a DoT. It's equally unrealistic to dodge all the mortar shots, given their AoE size.

 

Condi vs Power will always be a FEELING BAD argument more than any actual balance issue.

I don't entirely disagree - but that doesn't mean condi builds don't have 'condi burst' skills. For necros you want to try to dodge scepter 3. Core necro shroud5 has a very obvious tell that you want to just kite away for, and iirc shroud3 has a delay and a big 'ol animation so you know it's coming now. 

 

Weaver has that Stance skill that makes them pulse burns for a duration, and you just kite away during that - it's not like weavers are super mobile things, and the skill comes with limitations in that it pulses burns only in fire attunement, so if you have some spare cleanse and trust your judgement enough, you can counter pressure to try to force them to switch attunements and decrease their damage output.

 

Even scourge, the spec I considered for a while the best example of this issue folks are trying to articulate, was changed so that the shades do a lil 'pulse' thing before they go off. Or maybe that was removed? I don't actually see many scourges around anymore, so who knows.

 

People are just wrong about a lot of stuff - saying condi has this or that when power has similar (though not always) issues. It isn't like power setups don't have auto attacks, or their weapons have less skills.

 

Personally, I think the issue is with players knowledge of where the damage is coming from, how much damage is being done and where they'll able to get that information, and in some cases, yes, condi builds send to suffer (or rather, make everyone else suffer) from having this issues more often.

 

I enjoy mesmer but I'd say the animations - a LOT of them - are just not very well animated to be distinct from their surroundings, whereas most power setups have much better and more distinct animations. Warrior is a good example. Power reaper is my favorite example, because basically the entire kit has obvious animations except for one major, ridiculous exception in spinal shivers and I hate that skill so much. Rapid spinning? Great tell. Big 'ol executioner axe stance? Excellent, clearly something to be avoided. Lunge forward with a twirling weapon? Beautiful. High damaging skill that applies chill and rips 3(!) boons? Might as well be blind.

 

I was doing pvp yesterday at Forest of Niflhel at the mid node. There was a small fight going on at the mid node, and I was standing off to the side a few...generic units of measurement inward from the ledge and suddenly...bamf. I have a few stacks of this or that conditions on me. Haven't the foggiest of where they came from or what skill applied them. This happens often, particularly with necros around that have a trait that procs when they enter shroud. Just, poof, condis, some damage, and a boonrip. What's the range on it? How much damage is it doing? God may know but I certainly don't and the UI doesn't seem interested in telling me, either.

 

Question is, how much is a UI issue, how much is an animation issue, and how much is actually conditions doing too much damage and applying too fast? Especially taking cleanse into account and the wildly varying access to it, it can be hard to tell. Especially since, often, power builds have:

- Better burst

- Better durability in relation to how long they need to stay alive (while condi builds may objectively have higher defensive stats, they will also kill you much slower, and imo the durability a power build has in relation to how long it needs to stay alive to kill someone is much better than a condi build - with some exceptions, ofc).

 

I wonder how many complaints there would be if:

- The UI showed how much total damage from condis you would take if everything currently on you ticked the full duration

- The UI was editable in both size and what condis it showed first, and had a small circle showing you where your cleanse would 'start' on that row.

- Condition skills were given a pass to give them more distinct animations to make sure they could both be seen and had an animation proportionate to their impact

- Cleanse was reworked to be more consistently available. That is, players could more easily choose how much cleanse they wanted, exactly, in their build without having to *maybe* be able to easily get a certain amount of cleanse, but acquiring even a smidge more would require a very disproportionate compromise, etcetc. Currently, imo, it feels like there are 'jump' points of cleanse where if you want to go lower or higher, you have to do some ridiculous fenangling. 

 

Anywho. Some power examples, just in case anyone was wondering:

- Basically all of thief, power and condi

- Ranger longbow. Every arrow looks the same

- Necro spinal shivers (heh)

- Rev weapon skills sword2, sword5, gs4 (the attack afterward is very strong but looks rather generic)

- Mesmer GS2 is deceptively nonthreatening. Just a cute lil floaty pink thing twirling towards you

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

thanks paradox this thread has turned into a real goldmine lollers

[Grimjack.8130]

oh no i ate an eviscerate and took 5k damage

oh no i ate a rev mace 3 and am taking 5k damage overtime which means i can actually not take all that 5k damage even though ate 1 skill just like i did before in the prior example oh no conditions take no skill and have less counterplay than power damage even though thats completely false oh noooooooooooooo its in the name "damage over time" oh nooo im gonna continue posting on the reddit and forums spreading blatant misinformation oh nooooo