[Spoilers] Some thoughts after finishing EoD

[Shining One.1635]

Another note on the movement speed topic. I'm playing through The Scenic Route on my Herald right now. I have Facet of Elements on me, giving Swiftness to myself, Mai Trin, and Marjory. Due to the forced slowdown of my character, I can't keep up with them.

[LuckyThirteen.4576]

6 hours ago, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

You're confusing the main Elder Dragon plot with character arcs. The main Elder Dragon plot was resolved at the end of The Only One story chapter.

 

The character wrap ups with Aurene & co. in Arborstone and your friends in the Dead End Bar are contained in the epilogue titled The Cycle, Reborn.

 

The credits literally play while you're in Arborstone before the character arc wrap up in Divinity's Reach.

 

An epilogue is: "A section or speech at the end of a book or play that serves as a comment on or a conclusion to what has happened."

The chapter titled "epilogue" in the EoD story barely even mentions the events of the story, let alone does anything to further conclude them. So at a bare minimum, there has been a fundamental misunderstanding of an epilogue's purpose here.

Furthermore, it still doesn't address why these characters, on a narrative level, are singled out in the last story chapter of the game. Did Marjory and Kas' relationship play some major role in the plot of EoD? Why focus on them specifically and not, say, Gorrik and Taimi or Rama and Min? At least Rama and Min had a central plot point in EoD. What did focusing on these two characters in EoDs epilogue add to the greater narrative specifically?

Sure, the credits roll, but the exit portal in Arborstone literally takes you to Divinity's Reach instead of the Echovald Wilds, one of the only instances of this sort of thing in the entire game. You can hardly argue that the epilogue is some extra, extraneous content, it is the last chapter that appears in your story journal, and the journal concludes after it is over.

Edited April 27, 2022 by LuckyThirteen.4576

[Tanek.5983]

4 minutes ago, LuckyThirteen.4576 said:

An epilogue is: "A section or speech at the end of a book or play that serves as a comment on or a conclusion to what has happened."

The chapter titled "epilogue" in the EoD story barely even mentions the events of the story, let alone does anything to further conclude them. So at a bare minimum, there has been a fundamental misunderstanding of an epilogue's purpose here.

Furthermore, it still doesn't address why these characters, on a narrative level, are singled out in the last story chapter of the game. Did Marjory and Kas' relationship play some major role in the plot of EoD? Why focus on them specifically and not, say, Gorrik and Taimi or Rama and Min? At least Rama and Min had a central plot point in EoD. What did focusing on these two characters in EoDs epilogue add to the greater narrative specifically?

Sure, the credits roll, but the exit portal in Arborstone literally takes you to Divinity's Reach instead of the Echovald Wilds, one of the only instances of this sort of thing in the entire game. You can hardly argue that the epilogue is some extra, extraneous content, it is the last chapter that appears in your story journal, and the journal concludes after it is over.

So call it an end credits bonus scene rather than an epilogue if that is better for you. I think the intent is what matters in this case, not the wording.

As for why these characters and not others, maybe the others will have their moments in the future, too. This was many years in the making, though. Before Gorrik, long before Rama. So the greater narrative here stretches all the way back to Season 1.

[Bobby Stein.3612]

21 minutes ago, LuckyThirteen.4576 said:

What did focusing on these two characters in EoDs epilogue add to the greater narrative specifically?

EoD is the end of a 10-year serialized story, not just the self-contained one in Cantha. Since these specific characters have been with us for most of that journey and it's essentially the end of that chapter in the game we wanted to resolve it here. Same as when character arcs in TV shows span multiple seasons and get resolved at the end.

[LuckyThirteen.4576]

3 minutes ago, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

EoD is the end of a 10-year serialized story, not just the self-contained one in Cantha. Since these specific characters have been with us for most of that journey and it's essentially the end of that chapter in the game we wanted to resolve it here. Same as when character arcs in TV shows span multiple seasons and get resolved at the end.

It hardly seems a fitting conclusion to Dragons Watch's journey of killing six elder dragons, a mad god, and an ancient lich, to simply focusing on two characters, not even the biggest contributors mind you, talking about their relationship in a bar. That's kind of the whole point I've been making here. I'm not upset that you did it, I'm upset that it took a place in the narrative from something that would have been more fitting. The storytelling was sacrificed for this.

Additionally, I hope you'll forgive me if I find it a furthermore odd coincidence that, out of all the numerous characters, plot points, villains, arcs, and relationships, the writers decided that it was very important that these two characters specifically got the spotlight at the end of the 9-year story. Let alone the fact that their specific conclusion was entirely focused on their relationship to each other above all the other characters they've had relationships with. 

One might even suspect some sort of bias at play.

[Tanek.5983]

9 minutes ago, LuckyThirteen.4576 said:

It hardly seems a fitting conclusion to Dragons Watch's journey of killing six elder dragons, a mad god, and an ancient lich, to simply focusing on two characters, not even the biggest contributors mind you, talking about their relationship in a bar. That's kind of the whole point I've been making here. I'm not upset that you did it, I'm upset that it took a place in the narrative from something that would have been more fitting. The storytelling was sacrificed for this.

Additionally, I hope you'll forgive me if I find it a furthermore odd coincidence that, out of all the numerous characters, plot points, villains, arcs, and relationships, the writers decided that it was very important that these two characters specifically got the spotlight at the end of the 9-year story. Let alone the fact that their specific conclusion was entirely focused on their relationship to each other above all the other characters they've had relationships with. 

One might even suspect some sort of bias at play.

At this point I wonder if your're not just being disingenuous. This was not the "conclusion to Dragons Watch's journey of killing six elder dragons, a mad god, and an ancient lich". This was a part of a story that has been in the background of the game for the past 9 years. And it does not close the door on exploring any other character stories in the future.

If your issue isn't *what* happened, but *when* it happened, when would you have put this part of the character story that would have been more fitting? To me, it felt right that it would be after the major events of the dragon story when they finally had a breather.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Tanek.5983

[Ashen.2907]

4 minutes ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

Bobby, I'm really sorry you have to explain yourself to people with such severe unconscious bias that they construct every possible excuse or narrative to NOT allow two lesbian characters to get married. I do appreciate the effort though.#classyally

No. The questions were valid. Takes some pretty serious bias, unconscious or otherwise, to invent a spin like that though.

[Caitmonster.9036]

No one is saying that they shouldn't? It just seemed out of place or poorly timed, if anything. Maybe a little ham-fisty, and perhaps a little cheesy. It might've made a better current event, or a prologue for LS6 sort of like how Eir's memorial started off LS3.

Having criticism for a thing and how it is executed does not make a person biased against a thing, and that's a terrible generalization to make tbh. Some of us just have those annoying little things called opinions, and felt like sharing them. Maybe even offering some constructive suggestions for how these topics can be handled in the future of the game's storyline. I'm sorry it upsets you that we aren't all just clapping and bobbing our heads like trained monkeys because "oh wow story so woke and inclusive and its flawless the way it is".

Edited April 28, 2022 by Caitmonster.9036

[Dreggon.6598]

Logan should have proposed to Rytlock and the next story beat should have been "why did you do that at somebody else's wedding".

[HotDelirium.7984]

1 hour ago, Caitmonster.9036 said:

No one is saying that they shouldn't? It just seemed out of place or poorly timed, if anything. Maybe a little ham-fisty, and perhaps a little cheesy. It might've made a better current event, or a prologue for LS6 sort of like how Eir's memorial started off LS3.

Having criticism for a thing and how it is executed does not make a person biased against a thing, and that's a terrible generalization to make tbh. Some of us just have those annoying little things called opinions, and felt like sharing them. Maybe even offering some constructive suggestions for how these topics can be handled in the future of the game's storyline. I'm sorry it upsets you that we aren't all just clapping and bobbing our heads like trained monkeys because "oh wow story so woke and inclusive and its flawless the way it is".

There we go. I was waiting for the buzzword "woke" to come up. Many know what type of person uses that buzzword but let me give you the dirty little secret- the bias that we talk about is so ingrained in those types of people that its never the right time for this particular story. Its always too much in your face, too political... too "woke." Bias can be incredibly insidious but the question you really should be asking is what do the actual in real life LGBT+ people think about their story arc and this visibility. 

[Holykitten.3064]

15 hours ago, LuckyThirteen.4576 said:

 

An epilogue is: "A section or speech at the end of a book or play that serves as a comment on or a conclusion to what has happened."

The chapter titled "epilogue" in the EoD story barely even mentions the events of the story, let alone does anything to further conclude them. So at a bare minimum, there has been a fundamental misunderstanding of an epilogue's purpose here.

Furthermore, it still doesn't address why these characters, on a narrative level, are singled out in the last story chapter of the game. Did Marjory and Kas' relationship play some major role in the plot of EoD? Why focus on them specifically and not, say, Gorrik and Taimi or Rama and Min? At least Rama and Min had a central plot point in EoD. What did focusing on these two characters in EoDs epilogue add to the greater narrative specifically?

Sure, the credits roll, but the exit portal in Arborstone literally takes you to Divinity's Reach instead of the Echovald Wilds, one of the only instances of this sort of thing in the entire game. You can hardly argue that the epilogue is some extra, extraneous content, it is the last chapter that appears in your story journal, and the journal concludes after it is over.

But, "The Cycle, Reborn", does conclude the story of the Elder Dragon plot in Arborstone. See the dialogue from all the NPCs.

Then when you do zone to DR, I'm pretty sure there's a banner that says something along the lines of "Several months later".

When would you propose that Kas and Jory publicly propose in the bar that they first met? During all the events in EoD story? Before setting off to Cantha? At the start of the next LS? Because it would seem ham-fisted wherever it was placed to be honest.

Do I think it was ham-fisted where it was? A little, but I think that was down to the cheesy-ness of it rather than it's placement in the story journal. Cheesy-ness is a personal preference, of which I don't like, but I guess it needs to be cheesy because of the age-rating...

[DragonMoon.6098]

I didn't mind the conclusion at all. It was nice to have a scene with the original members of Dragons Watch and we've watched this journey with Kass and Jory for 9 years now, so I'd say...it's about time! It's not like their relationship was ever invisible...it was always there, and we even saw when it was getting a little tenuous (LWS3 into PoF)...so again...it's about time to finally see everything come full circle. My only hope is that we get updates on other members of Dragons Watch in the future...like how Rytlock is doing, or is Logan still the Pact Marshall and how is he doing in general, or how is Braham's recovery going and will we see the Norn begin to migrate back to the Far Shiverpeaks and will Braham be involved in that, and how is Taimi doing and will she and Gorrik ever actually get together? I don't want the game to lose sight of these people because we did spend 9 years with them. I'm kind of invested in their well-being at this point, lol. 

[Dreggon.6598]

The next chapter of Guild Wars, set far into the future...

 

All worlds have crumbled to dust, every galaxy has withered to nothing, and the universe is about collapse... on a distant, far-flung rock on the edge of reality, stand two women. Watching, and waiting, for the final reset.

 

"Ugh," you say, "fine. I guess you two can get married now, but I'm not happy about it."

[standardFoe.2983]

@Ashen.2907 It is not in my head, I don't even follow GW2 on any social media yet it that stupid word 'woke' keeps coming up getting pulled in from youtube, twitter, reddit ect..

 

Sure there could be other gay relationships included over time but once again Jory and Kas were the original same-sex couple for GW2 and at the time (and to some extent still) lesbian relationships were more easily accepted by the general public than men in same-sex couples.

 

But a discussion on the influence of toxic masculinity on gamer culture is a whole other topic.

 

What about asexual-loner representation? I have never seen a character that represents me in GW2 or any MMO really, because my personal preference is not the only demographic or even a significant one.

 

Anet is a company existing in capitalism interested in making money from as many players as possible. This means the writers have to find a general middle ground that allows a diverse player base to be engaged and they don't get it right all the time. But the fact they are interested in trying is good and hopefully the devs are taking the idea that more inclusivity is what the players want seriously.

[DragonMoon.6098]

21 hours ago, standardFoe.2983 said:

@Ashen.2907 It is not in my head, I don't even follow GW2 on any social media yet it that stupid word 'woke' keeps coming up getting pulled in from youtube, twitter, reddit ect..

 

Sure there could be other gay relationships included over time but once again Jory and Kas were the original same-sex couple for GW2 and at the time (and to some extent still) lesbian relationships were more easily accepted by the general public than men in same-sex couples.

 

But a discussion on the influence of toxic masculinity on gamer culture is a whole other topic.

 

What about asexual-loner representation? I have never seen a character that represents me in GW2 or any MMO really, because my personal preference is not the only demographic or even a significant one.

 

Anet is a company existing in capitalism interested in making money from as many players as possible. This means the writers have to find a general middle ground that allows a diverse player base to be engaged and they don't get it right all the time. But the fact they are interested in trying is good and hopefully the devs are taking the idea that more inclusivity is what the players want seriously.

In terms of romance, the ship has already sailed on Kass and Jory (again, I have no issues with this and I'm super happy for them), but I honestly would like to see ANet leave the other main NPC's alone and leave them open for whatever the player would like to ship in their heads. Want to ship your Commander with Caithe? Have at it. Is your Commander lusting after Rytlock's super soft fur? Cool. Is your Commander an asexual god? Awesome. Is your Commander just great at getting everybody into one giant cuddle puddle of LURV? DO IT!

Edited April 29, 2022 by DragonMoon.6098

[Astralporing.1957]

9 hours ago, Haleydawn.3764 said:

But, "The Cycle, Reborn", does conclude the story of the Elder Dragon plot in Arborstone. See the dialogue from all the NPCs.

Then when you do zone to DR, I'm pretty sure there's a banner that says something along the lines of "Several months later".

When would you propose that Kas and Jory publicly propose in the bar that they first met? During all the events in EoD story? Before setting off to Cantha? At the start of the next LS? Because it would seem ham-fisted wherever it was placed to be honest.

No, but they could have made it one of several small scenes at the end of the movie/book, instead of being the only one "after credits" scene.

It being that one singular scene at the end might have easily suggested to some that the whole 9-years long story arc was a personal story of Kas' and Marjory's relationship (and, of course,  zombiesdragons)

 

[phandaria.4891]

On 4/28/2022 at 4:30 AM, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

EoD is the end of a 10-year serialized story, not just the self-contained one in Cantha. Since these specific characters have been with us for most of that journey and it's essentially the end of that chapter in the game we wanted to resolve it here. Same as when character arcs in TV shows span multiple seasons and get resolved at the end.

I think it is more that Kas and Jory got disproportionate amount of screen time, for a character development side story. It makes the devs seem biased towards these two and their relationship.

For the players that likes them, it's great. But for others that much prefer other Dragon's Watch members (or other characters), it gets tedious.

As other posts have said, if Kas and Jory got a wedding scene, other members should have gotten an epilogue specific to them as well. Currently, Kas and Jory gets way too much spotlight and their story arc feels pushed far too strongly onto the players.

IMO, the reaction that you are getting is the result of this bias, not necessarily the playerbase's disdain towards LGBT/lesbian story.

Edited April 29, 2022 by phandaria.4891

[Kalavier.1097]

On 4/27/2022 at 10:41 PM, HotDelirium.7984 said:

There we go. I was waiting for the buzzword "woke" to come up. Many know what type of person uses that buzzword but let me give you the dirty little secret- the bias that we talk about is so ingrained in those types of people that its never the right time for this particular story. Its always too much in your face, too political... too "woke." Bias can be incredibly insidious but the question you really should be asking is what do the actual in real life LGBT+ people think about their story arc and this visibility. 

Yep. Every time i see "Woke" appear I just go "And that means what?" Considering I have just recently seen it used to describe everything from man smashing screaming lunatics to "The wife and boss of man asked him to do the paperwork. He complied."

On reddit after the Echovald wilds tour I saw a person who cried about how the story would be ruined "woke nonsense" purely because... A tengu offered an androgynous disguise option and there was a singular agender character." More recent posts I've seen just nail in that yes, some people are so biased about this set of subject that any time is a bad time for it.

[Dreggon.6598]

I think the Purists should have all been wearing Celebration Hats, dyed red, so they look like MAGA caps. I am not a person who understands nuance so I need these overt signs of fascism to feel secure, also Li should have been the hero and Joon shouldn't have to pay taxes

[Zok.4956]

On 4/27/2022 at 11:30 PM, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

EoD is the end of a 10-year serialized story, not just the self-contained one in Cantha. Since these specific characters have been with us for most of that journey and it's essentially the end of that chapter in the game we wanted to resolve it here.

The last part of the story in the Dead End Bar didn't feel like a conclusion to the story of Marjory and Kasmeer to me. Maybe it has to do with the german translation. Maybe I just misinterpreted it.

It felt like the focus and screen time they are getting is somehow a foreshadowing and preparation, that both would play a major part in Season 6. Maybe they create together with Gorrik (and with part time help from Rama and the player character) a private detective agency and will travel around the world to solve crimes and mysteries and smaller stories will be told.

[Zok.4956]

20 hours ago, DragonMoon.6098 said:

and leave them open for whatever the player would like to ship in their heads. Want to ship your Commander with Caithe? Have at it. Is your Commander lusting after Rytlok's super soft fur? Cool. Is your Commander an asexual god? Awesome. Is your Commander just great at getting everybody into one giant cuddle puddle of LURV? DO IT!

I think this is an important point. It is a fantasy role playing game after all. And the role and (fantasy) identity is not only about gender.

I still remember, as an example, how frustrated a friend was, because her Commander, a Charr, had to pledge herself to the Shining Blade and Kryta in the S3 story and it felt so wrong for her.

[Gibson.4036]

It’s very normal at the end of a big adventure plot to end with a personal relationship. It’s the “falling action” or “denouement” (untying of the knot).

Its purpose is to unwind the tension that was built and then peaked at the climax. It returns us to a smaller, more personal, human scale of story after the huge events of the main plot.

Throughout literature there are a few very common scenes for this purpose. A coronation is one, because it settles us that true authority has been restored (see Shakespeare’s tragedies). Another is when the narrator tells us what each character went on to do afterward, giving us the reassurance they returned to fulfilling lives or got their just desserts.

The most common is a wedding. Look at how many of Shakespeare’s comedies end in weddings. When people are getting married, we know that the threat has past and that order has been restored.

Kas and Marjory’ relationship isn’t completely separate from the dragon story, as some have said. Their troubles are closely tied to events of the war against the dragons, from Belinda’s death to Kasmeer’s crisis of faith. The fact that they turned away from each other at these moments instead of to each other was the big flaw in their relationship that needed resolved.

A discussion could be had about whether the storytelling really showed us how that came to be resolved. It feels, to me, like it just abruptly was. But it’s definitely not a completely separate story from the battle against the dragons.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[DragonMoon.6098]

59 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

A discussion could be had about whether the storytelling really showed is how that came to be resolved. It feels, to me, like it just abruptly was. But it’s definitely not a completely separate story from the battle against the dragons.

Yes, I honestly thought they were going to break up...but then poof they appeared walking together during Wintersday 2021, an activity not all players will see (I didn't even see it and heard about it through Facebook), and then now they're getting married. I would have liked to see the relationship growth. Hell, we even saw Braham's character growth. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by DragonMoon.6098

[HotDelirium.7984]

6 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Yep. Every time i see "Woke" appear I just go "And that means what?" Considering I have just recently seen it used to describe everything from man smashing screaming lunatics to "The wife and boss of man asked him to do the paperwork. He complied."

On reddit after the Echovald wilds tour I saw a person who cried about how the story would be ruined "woke nonsense" purely because... A tengu offered an androgynous disguise option and there was a singular agender character." More recent posts I've seen just nail in that yes, some people are so biased about this set of subject that any time is a bad time for it.

As a non-binary person myself having that option was EVERYTHING to me. Some people will never understand that and that's their journey. "If not us, who? And if not now, when?"

[Kalavier.1097]

26 minutes ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

As a non-binary person myself having that option was EVERYTHING to me. Some people will never understand that and that's their journey. "If not us, who? And if not now, when?"

It's amazing to me how people will look at that and scream about propaganda and conspiracies. Not Anet pushing that all must be X or Anet openly in the game and out of the game saying Y is best.

Just literally "So, we got some disguises for ya. You wanna be masculine, feminine, or androgynous?" And that's the end of the world for Tyria being good lol.

Somebody went "Why would my very masculine norn even get asked that?" Simple! if everybody is looking for a female human saboteur, nobody is looking at the big male norn down the road at the village.

My reaction to it(I went in blind, besides watching the Echovald guild tour)? "Huh. interesting."