Revert Mai Trin original VA lines

[Shadowmoon.7986]

I am not a fan of the changed VA lines for the Mai Trin boss fight. I do not understand why these lines werere recorded.  The return of LS1 should be the closest possible recreation of the original content as possible.  Unfortunately, the new lines and VA does not have the charm that the original set had.  This is an example of the worst part of the LS1 rerelease, the pointless and bazaar changes that keep happening.  I already know the changes that will happen next update, the MK1 clockworks are probably getting compete replaced with something more similar to MK2's, which will now include the tonic.

I understand that you wasted money on rerecording these lines to have the same VA in the EOD and the LS1. I would suggest leaving the fractal VA lines the classic 8 year old lines and VA, and just having the story instance use the new lines and VA. Fractals as suppose to be echo of the past, so it would canonically make sense.

[Whiskers.7346]

The old one was better.

Give it back.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

I imagine the main reason why the new lines were done is to maintain VA consistency, which is a bit weird because A) it's been 10 years, people don't sound the same, B) it just wasn't necessary.

The new VA isn't a bad actress, but these lines are... very flat and not so well delivered, at least the ones that occur in the fractal / Aetherblade Retreat battles. I don't care about iconicness, but the delivery was just sub-par IMO. And the word choice changes is just weird. What was so wrong with this line

Mai Trin: This has all gone to crud. Scarlet's gonna have my noggin for screwing up.

that it had to be changed to this line

Mai Trin: Scarlet's gonna have my skull.

It just doesn't fit - the first was more fitting of Mai as a pirate, and why specify skull; that's as if implying Scarlet is a skull collector or something. And it just doesn't have the same impact because it's like... why. Why is Scarlet gonna "have her skull"? The previous line gave proper context.

And then there's the other changed lines in the beginning of the fight:

Mai Trin: This has all gone to crud. Scarlet's gonna have my noggin for screwing up.

First Mate Horrik: What now, Captain? It'll take cannonballs to get out of here alive.

Mai Trin: Either way, I'm dead, so let's wind our springs and ride this escapement to the end.

First Mate Horrik: You got it. I'll undock the airships.

Mai Trin: You and your brothers give good battle, old friend. Now, let's dig in before they show. I'll raise the gangplanks.

to

Mai Trin: Scarlet's gonna have my skull.

First Mate Horrik: What now, Captain? It'll take cannonballs to get out of here alive.

Mai Trin: I'm dead either way. Might as well strap in for a decent fight.

First Mate Horrik: You got it. I'll undock the airships.

Mai Trin: I'll raise the gangplanks.

The new dialogue just... lacks personality. It's like someone said "take this dialogue and condense it into as few words as possible" and that's what happened. Meanwhile the VA was told the record the lines but was given no, or poor, direction because it just doesn't have the emotion that befits the scene.

 

I haven't done the new story yet, so I don't know the difference in voice quality, but I will admit the new word choice for Mai Trin in No More Secrets is better. It went from

Marjory Delaqua: Ahem. Are you seeing what I'm seeing? Looks like our little helper pirate was helping herself.

Investigator Ellen Kiel: Mai Trin, you're under arrest, by Lionguard authority. You will present yourself–

Mai Trin: If it weren't for that detective and her cronies, you'd never have known it was me.

Mai Trin: (laugh) My plan was to open a seat on the council so I could fill it. Now, it's to punish you all for spoiling my first one.

Mai Trin: Come out, my clockwork crew! Let's show them what it feels like to be impaled on the sharp tip of misfortune.

to

Marjory Delaqua: Ahem. Are you seeing what I'm seeing? Looks like our little helper pirate was helping herself.

Mai Trin: Marjory Delaqua. I'll remember that.

Investigator Ellen Kiel: Mai Trin, you're under arrest, by Lionguard authority. You will present yourself—

Mai Trin: So much for discretion.

Mai Trin: Crew! It's time to earn your pay.

and yeah, that is an improvement over the original Scooby-Doo villain speech, though it could have been improved by simply removing that first line by Mai Trin and no other changes. But the boss fight dialogue? Ouch. I'd rather suffer the Scooby-Doo line than this... lack of emotional boss battle in the fractal. Either re-record the sub-par lines, or revert the fractal ones so that what is heard over and over again is not bad.

Though I will say, Mai Trin should have kept the last dialogue phrasing. Let's show them what it feels like to be impaled on the sharp tip of misfortune.

Was the aim to try to make her actions feel less evil to support her redemption arc in EoD? Because, well it worked, but at the cost of feeling less anything. But again, this new dialogue just was given the treatment of an editor going "okay, I need to condense into as few words as possible".

 

Do you pay Mai Trin's new voice actress by the word and have a tight budget, or something?

 

EDIT: Thinking on this more, it feels like either there was a "pay by the word" budget issue, someone has a thing for condensing wording as a side effect of needing to stretch word count to the maximum for essays, or a non-writer was trying to rewrite Mai Trin to be less evil feeling to improve her redemption in EoD (which only serves to backlash as it makes Marjory and Kiel seem to be assholes for not forgiving Mai Trin - if it was done well that is).

Edited May 27, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Nemo.5609]

After changing the pre-fight dialogue to be much shorter, they didn't adjust the timing of the battle starting. This creates a long awkward pause between "gangplanks" and "This is what your curiosity."

I think it would be best if the lines are re-recorded with the old text and proper direction and more vigor, this is confident captain Mai Trim before going to the Mists, after all.

[Danikat.8537]

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It's like someone said "take this dialogue and condense it into as few words as possible" and that's what happened.

It wouldn't surprise me if that's exactly what happened.

There's been a trend among video game developers in recent years of claiming that unless you're making an interactive novel you should assume players don't want to read or listen to any more dialogue than is absolutely necessary and therefore everything should be trimmed down to the bare minimum to accommodate them.

I'd like to disagree (I'm certainly the opposite, for example I'll always check for extra dialogue options during and after story steps) but I've seen enough complaints on this forum about having to sit through any dialogue at all and constant request for everything that isn't combat to have a skip button that I can believe Anet has come to the conclusion that is what players want and what they should aim for.

It's a shame because it leads to changes like this (and probably comparable changes to new dialogue where we never get to see the first version), but if it is what the majority of players want I'm not sure there's any way around it. They can't reasonably offer 2 versions of every story step, and especially not things like Fractals.

[Zebulous.2934]

It seems silly to make someone less evil during their villain arc. If you want it to be more memorable they need to be dramatic.  Why would I want a lukewarm villain to be redeemed? If a villain is mean, or well spoken, perhaps they will have an impact and catch my attention.  If they catch my attention then maybe I will want them to live. 
 Give your actors enough dialogue to convey personality, and do multiple takes with varying emotional weights. 

The ability to animate the characters is limited, you really should treat this like a radio play.  The voice inflection is super important because the visuals are necessarily simple. 

[Luthan.5236]

Only noticed this with the "nogging" - that line I heard too much from the fractals. Felt weird when it changed suddenly. There are also some things about the Southsun where they need to be careful. Dialogue with Ellen Kiel in the first instance of the chapter (when effigies were lit) I think she talks as if she knew the commander already from there (mentioning Canach). At the end - if I remember correctly ... it sounded a bit different. (Weren't Ellen and Magnus in the Dead End Bar and Magnus with a dialogue about Ellen and Southsun mentioning it "a different story" - as if the commander wasn't there and didn't know about this.)

Don't know why they had to change the line - similar voice actors would have been fine. And with the other voice actor ... same lines also should have worked.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Caitmonster.9036]

I thought I was going crazy, as I remembered Trin's "Horrik! Unleash the cannons!" being a lot more forceful and shrill in the fractal version, only to now sound... less so? Almost calm? I was surprised to see they applied the new voice acting to both story and fractal version too, not entirely sure why it needed a change. I'd buy re-shooting the lines to bring LS1 Mai's voice acting in line with EoD's, I guess. Not upset about it, just... perplexed.

[Guybrush.4762]

Well... while I recognize the new VA did a great job mimicking the old one, I prefer old lines a lot. They felt more aggressive and passionate and to be honest I have learned to love them. That being said, I am also in favor of shortening the awkward moment at the beginning of the fight. There is nothing to do which is not exiting. So... Ideally It would be perfect if the old voice line would be played as a distant echo while we fight the veteran asura just before mai trin. It would make more sense from a suspension of disbelieve stand point than just idling for a couple of second while mai trin is delivering her speech. Plus the echo effect would cover the few differences between the new and old voice.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Guybrush.4762

[Ashantara.8731]

On 5/27/2022 at 2:00 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I haven't done the new story yet, so I don't know the difference in voice quality, but I will admit the new word choice for Mai Trin in No More Secrets is better. It went from

Marjory Delaqua: Ahem. Are you seeing what I'm seeing? Looks like our little helper pirate was helping herself.

Investigator Ellen Kiel: Mai Trin, you're under arrest, by Lionguard authority. You will present yourself–

Mai Trin: If it weren't for that detective and her cronies, you'd never have known it was me.

Mai Trin: (laugh) My plan was to open a seat on the council so I could fill it. Now, it's to punish you all for spoiling my first one.

Mai Trin: Come out, my clockwork crew! Let's show them what it feels like to be impaled on the sharp tip of misfortune.

to

Marjory Delaqua: Ahem. Are you seeing what I'm seeing? Looks like our little helper pirate was helping herself.

Mai Trin: Marjory Delaqua. I'll remember that.

Investigator Ellen Kiel: Mai Trin, you're under arrest, by Lionguard authority. You will present yourself—

Mai Trin: So much for discretion.

Mai Trin: Crew! It's time to earn your pay.

and yeah, that is an improvement over the original Scooby-Doo villain speech, [...]

I disagree. "My plan was to open a seat on the council so I could fill it" was a vital part of information. At this point, no one who is playing through the new content will understand Mai Trinn's motives other than "there is a big bad we have not seen yet who ordered her to sabotage the ceremony for no logical reason."

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I disagree. "My plan was to open a seat on the council so I could fill it" was a vital part of information. At this point, no one who is playing through the new content will understand Mai Trinn's motives other than "there is a big bad we have not seen yet who ordered her to sabotage the ceremony for no logical reason."

To be clear, I was referring too removing this one line

Mai Trin: If it weren't for that detective and her cronies, you'd never have known it was me.

Or to say another way, I think the ideal, through using just the old and new wording, would have been:

Marjory Delaqua: Ahem. Are you seeing what I'm seeing? Looks like our little helper pirate was helping herself.

Mai Trin: Marjory Delaqua. I'll remember that.

Investigator Ellen Kiel: Mai Trin, you're under arrest, by Lionguard authority. You will present yourself–

Mai Trin: So much for discretion. My plan was to open a seat on the council so I could fill it.

Mai Trin: Crew! It's time to earn your pay. Let's show them what it feels like to be impaled on the sharp tip of misfortune.

[Batel.9206]

Huh. I only ever heard the original lines from the Season 1 recap video on youtube, and haven't heard the new ones...but just from seeing them written out, it seems like the old ones had so much more personality. To me the Aetherblades seemed dangerous, sure, but a little madcap as well. The old lines fit that mentality perfectly. The new lines just look so flat, lifeless, and completely forgettable.

[Kalavier.1097]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

To be clear, I was referring too removing this one line

Mai Trin: If it weren't for that detective and her cronies, you'd never have known it was me.

Or to say another way, I think the ideal, through using just the old and new wording, would have been:

Marjory Delaqua: Ahem. Are you seeing what I'm seeing? Looks like our little helper pirate was helping herself.

Mai Trin: Marjory Delaqua. I'll remember that.

Investigator Ellen Kiel: Mai Trin, you're under arrest, by Lionguard authority. You will present yourself–

Mai Trin: So much for discretion. My plan was to open a seat on the council so I could fill it.

Mai Trin: Crew! It's time to earn your pay. Let's show them what it feels like to be impaled on the sharp tip of misfortune.

Being fair, I wonder if the lines were cut down because of a sense of "Villain monologue when nothing is stopping the heroes from acting" sense.

It's not like there was much stopping people from leaping into action, so a shorter, quicker piece then Mai Trin flees makes it flow slightly better?

[Zebulous.2934]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Being fair, I wonder if the lines were cut down because of a sense of "Villain monologue when nothing is stopping the heroes from acting" sense.

It's not like there was much stopping people from leaping into action, so a shorter, quicker piece then Mai Trin flees makes it flow slightly better?

Perhaps, though the battle is still waiting for the old lines to finish before it starts anyway. I don't think any time is being saved currently.

 

 

 

[Maria Murtor.7253]

Changing the original voice for Mai Trin was unnecessary, a waste of time and it's disrecpectful to the original voice actress. 

[Alexander.5321]

Removing the old voice lines also kinda removes Mai's personality, after meeting with the new Mai in EoD after almost a decade gave a feeling of the character aging and dealing with what happened in the mists (with the new VA tone) compared to young Mai. Now after doing the old aetherblade and Mai not having her energetic voicelines it kinda feels like it removed all impact these years had and she was always how she is in EoD.
EoD Mai's voice is fine, but please can we have the old voice in the old content, or at least in fractals since it's what we hear frequently?

[Condutas.3580]

I don't know who was the dev responsible for this mess but this is both a non requested feature and also a downgrade for no reason.

Mai Trin's voice was epic, with the right ammount of sarcasm and sassy on her.

We didn't needed someone that clearly don't have a clue just listening to his own cat and thinking:

"You know what? what if I put the voices of my cat on this npc instead of what the players are used to hear for years and years?"

Yes, You had a quite skillfull voice actor there and you traded for the sounds of some random cat. That's how bad it was.

Please revert it back. In the meanwhile, we gotta turn the volume turn and turn on some youtube video with the REAL MAI TRIN FRACTAL VOICE everytime we do the Mai trin fractal in game now.

[JTGuevara.9018]

....(shakes head)...

The one flaw in this episode...all they had to do was LEAVE IT ALONE. No grudge against the current Mai Trin VA, but she does not fit the old Mai Trin! The voice is too pleasant. It does not fit a cutthroat pirate leader! Whoever ok'ed this needs to rethink and reconsider.

[JTGuevara.9018]

9 hours ago, Maria Murtor.7253 said:

Changing the original voice for Mai Trin was unnecessary, a waste of time and it's disrecpectful to the original voice actress. 

Seriously! Whoever ok'ed this...what were they THINKING?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

16 hours ago, Alexander.5321 said:

Removing the old voice lines also kinda removes Mai's personality, after meeting with the new Mai in EoD after almost a decade gave a feeling of the character aging and dealing with what happened in the mists (with the new VA tone) compared to young Mai. Now after doing the old aetherblade and Mai not having her energetic voicelines it kinda feels like it removed all impact these years had and she was always how she is in EoD.

Not just that, but now Mai's entire involvement as well. Having played through Sky Pirates I noticed things that aren't on wiki yet. For example, when the assassination happens, this is the original dialogue:

Inspector Ellen Kiel: Lionguard! Go get that dolyak and bring it to the front. We have injured, and we need to get the councillors to safety.

Mai Trin: Lionguard, what can I do? I have some skill at healing.

Inspector Ellen Kiel: See if you can help the charr cultural rep. He's injured and not moving.

And this is the new dialogue:

Inspector Ellen Kiel: Lionguard! Go get that dolyak and bring it to the front. We have injured, and we need to get the councillors to safety.

Mai Trin: What can I do to help?

Inspector Ellen Kiel: See if you can help the charr cultural rep. He's injured and not moving.

(as it isn't up on wiki it might not be verbatim)

And I'm just going "why, Kiel. WHY LET A RANDOM PERSON IN". No police or police-like individual would allow random citizens who show no expertise to tend to wounded individual. Originally, it made sense. Mai stated she had medical knowledge. But here, Mai says nothing.

But I guess this falls in line with the idiot ball handling that Captain's Council has during the finale arc with refusing to accept Scarlet would dare to assault Lion's Arch twice.

The name change tech is great. Having Mai Trin labeled as "Citizen" and only name revealed if you talk to her and she tells you her name. And having the Aetherblades be renamed "Mysterious Attacker" in the first instance (kind of ruined by the achievement for killing Aetherblades popping up within the instance).

 

Honestly, of all the changes done to S1 return so far, this is the weirdest. And the Ottilia retcon is pretty weird and equally turns multiple characters into a worse state.

Changes I noticed overall so far:

• Cobiah Marriner statue just off the explorable area of the instances, in a direction opposite of your direction. Not bad but weird choice.
• Logan Thackeray shows up outside The Dead End, calling you Commander. Tells you Theo died and mentions he had family - This is good because originally there was zero mention of him having family and this gets brought up ad nausium in EoD.
• Kasmeer is sitting on a bench in The Dead End. Lovely use of future tech! She also shows up in the next instance talking to NPCs - this wasn't in the original (she only showed up idling in open world LA during Dragon's Bash). One negative of this is that I don't think we get her original dialogue from LA anywhere - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kasmeer_Meade/dialogue/season_1#Dragon_Bash
• Horrik shows up in No More Secrets as a mini-boss fight which is 👍Season 1 had a major issue of no reoccurring bosses besides Scarlet, and this helps fix.
• The entire "Aetherblade Investigation" is 100% new.
• They didn't bring back the regional Aetherblade killer achievements which is a bit sad.

Overall, I love the changes done to Sky Pirates. The Cobiah statue is a weird choice, but not unwelcome. But the Mai Trin voice changes are just... not only unnecessary but simply hurt the story in almost every way. The only time I didn't mind the new Mai Trin lines was The Scene of the Crime instance. And her words just go from

Mai Trin: I beg your pardon.

Marjory Delaqua: Don't fret. You'll come to no harm-unless you had a hand in what happened. Um. She's glowing.

Marjory Delaqua: All right, lady. You better start talkin'.

Mai Trin: What? I... swear. I had nothing to do with that tragedy. I'm an upstanding citizen.

Investigator Ellen Kiel: Wait. Could she have gotten it from the dead charr that glowed? She attempted to revive him.

Mai Trin: Yes, yes. That must be it. I was only trying to help.

Marjory Delaqua: Oh, disappointment. Well, you're one lucky little pirate, you are. Consider yourself exonerated.

to this

Citizen/Mai Trin: You must be kidding.

Marjory Delaqua: Don't fret. You'll come to no harm—unless you had a hand in what happened. Um. She's glowing.

Marjory Delaqua: All right, lady. You better start talkin'.

Citizen/Mai Trin: Are you accusing me?

Investigator Ellen Kiel: Wait. Could she have gotten it from the dead charr that glowed? She attempted to revive him.

Citizen/Mai Trin: The detective would know that, too, if she paid better attention to her crime scene.

Marjory Delaqua: Oh, disappointment. Well, you're one lucky little pirate, you are. Consider yourself exonerated.

they're different, but not outright worse unlike the others.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Telgum.6071]

The old "Horrick! Unleash the cannons!" was amazing. I don't even understand how could they even think about updating the line in first place, like it needed to be changed.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Telgum.6071

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

It was definitely a pointless update. They literally put effort into changing something that didn't need changing. 

[Ashantara.8731]

Thought:

Since Scarlet is the type of villain that loves those stereotypical monologues, I hope they will have her explain what Mai Trinn's actual mission in Lion's Arch was all about (infiltrating the Council etc).

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Thought:

Since Scarlet is the type of villain that loves those stereotypical monologues, I hope they will have her explain what Mai Trinn's actual mission in Lion's Arch was all about (infiltrating the Council etc).

Scarlet also loves her monologue through hologram/away from hero, so it makes more sense with her speeching on while the hero can't actually harm her.

A few weeks ago I was in a discussion about that kinda thing lol, how it's stupid when they have one side monologue/keep talking and then escape *or get a first hit in* while the opponent (hero or villain) is standing right there, and can easily take action to kill/wound/knock out or stop the other person.

[Batel.9206]

4 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Thought:

Since Scarlet is the type of villain that loves those stereotypical monologues, I hope they will have her explain what Mai Trinn's actual mission in Lion's Arch was all about (infiltrating the Council etc).

If they don't cut out/rewrite Scarlet's dialogue, too. I hope they don't, but I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to make her more "sympathetic," like what they apparently attempted with Mai Trin.

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

A few weeks ago I was in a discussion about that kinda thing lol, how it's stupid when they have one side monologue/keep talking and then escape *or get a first hit in* while the opponent (hero or villain) is standing right there, and can easily take action to kill/wound/knock out or stop the other person.

"You sly dog! You got me monologuing!"

...I'm sorry, I had to. 😂