Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[Veprovina.4876]

The balance team is a joke at best, and actively targeting a part of the Anet player base at worst.

They need to be replaced.

And reading patch notes last few times, and now, no one likes what they're doing, not just Mesmer players.

They're making the game not fun to play.

And i think Anet needs to step up and hire someone new.

And no, don't fire the current ones, just give them other jobs in the company, i'm sure they'll be useful somewhere else (before someone says i'm trying to get someone fired). But they're clearly incompetent in running the game balance.

 

This has been the worst year(s) of balance since GW2 started. They're literally ruining the game with their ideas that no player actually likes. Not to mention the heavy bias against Mesmers that's utterly irresponsible and unprofessional.

 

Just awful.

[Curunen.8729]

lol, so the joke goes on. 😅 Glad to be busy irl and only read patch notes.

[katte nici.9483]

I started this post over three times because I didnt want to get banned.

[Infusion.7149]

More waiting I guess.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Clearly it is not happening so....I'm just wondering when the forum mods decide to close this thread kekw.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Salt Mode.3780

[Moradorin.6217]

Bump.

 

Also people may want to check out and post on:

 

 

It isnt what we are all asking for, however, its the same topic from another point of view.

[Moradorin.6217]

19 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Clearly it is not happening so....I'm just wondering when the forum mods decide to close this thread kekw.

I think things are moving in the right direction tbh. I see more awareness of the issue, at least. My fear is that Anet will realize it was a mistake and fix it at the point that, because the game has declined so much, none of us will care to play anyway.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[apharma.3741]

From a WvW perspective we live in a world of:
20K+ unblockable gunflames that you will 1 tap you so fast most can't dodge it.
Catalysts basically having every boon in the game and being god mode.

Spellbreaker being able to sit there with perma stab and CC chain you till someone murders you.
Rangers that can unblockable sic'em with One Wolf Pack for all your health in 1s from >1500 range.

Celestial....everything taking a giant dump on any kind of "fair build" or non celestial/trailblazer/minstrels stats build.

Engineers VERY PASSIVELY hitting you for 3-4K with explosive entrance on top of one shot grenade barrage.

Yet, mirage getting the 2nd dodge is seen as cause for concern. It's literally a numbers change and then mirage will go from not played to....not played still but at least you might see the odd one.
Edit: Oh I also forgot burn guard (many variants) that can legit down 10-20 people due to the way permeating wrath works.

Edited May 3, 2023 by apharma.3741

[katte nici.9483]

Yes it is crazy how much better many builds are compared to Mirage. I don't think most people understand this, they still remember those 3 months in 2018 when Mirage was good.

[pninak.1069]

I think they might do it. With last patch alac duration from clones was nerfed so you actually have to use skills now instead of relying on dodge. If alac has been nerfed to an extend where clones just provide the alac inbetween skills/dodges and  can be kept up with 2 dodges only we might see another nerf for staff ambush dmg and other ambushes before getting our second dodge back. But compared to other classes like vindi you have more skills in the equation so there might be other nerfs following because of more dodges being available. vindi got two dodges, but buff for endurance regen was cut in half and dmg aswell got halfed although there was a netgain of dmg with the change.

 

Don't really see why ppl think mirage dodges are any different. Other classes also deal dmg with their dodges while also dealing dmg and some even got more dodges. So saying they are "special" in some way is just a lie since mechanically they are the same. We even need an interaction with mirrors for it to proc most of the time.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Its hilarious on the double standard, yes vindicator's vigor and all that was cut in half, in comparison we got our vigor uptime completely gutted. EVERYTHING was taken away from us prior to the 1 dodge nerf and then decided it was a good idea to remove the dodge. EVEN if they returned our 2nd dodge it would be mid tier at best with some of the builds out there circulating.

[Infusion.7149]

9 minutes ago, pninak.1069 said:

I think they might do it. With last patch alac duration from clones was nerfed so you actually have to use skills now instead of relying on dodge. If alac has been nerfed to an extend where clones just provide the alac inbetween skills/dodges and  can be kept up with 2 dodges only we might see another nerf for staff ambush dmg and other ambushes before getting our second dodge back. But compared to other classes like vindi you have more skills in the equation so there might be other nerfs following because of more dodges being available. vindi got two dodges, but buff for endurance regen was cut in half and dmg aswell got halfed although there was a netgain of dmg with the change.

 

Don't really see why ppl think mirage dodges are any different. Other classes also deal dmg with their dodges while also dealing dmg and some even got more dodges. So saying they are "special" in some way is just a lie since mechanically they are the same. We even need an interaction with mirrors for it to proc most of the time.

Reduction of alac duration from clones is a PvE nerf to staxe and it is clearly stated in the patchnote. If Arenanet was nerfing it for PvP (because rarely do people use staff in WvW due to being a projectile condi weapon) in terms of condition output then they would have done so already.
That has nothing to do with one dodge in competitive modes.

[pninak.1069]

I played mirage a few times in wvw and fought a few ppl. I mainly play pve tho so I don'T have the experience as longtime wvw-players. However I think that ppl are maybe overwhelmed by things they need to pay attention to on mesmer. Dmgwise it seemed fine to me. Most of the 1vs1s are relativly short so alac won't matter as much.

 

There is also the fear of gw2's mesmer falling into the same fate as gw1 where it was considered an unusable class before gw2 came out. But since then it has become the main dmg dealer as it has two of the strongest attributes in the game while also dealing armor-ignoring dmg. These attributes where skill activation speed increase and skill recharge reduction without relying on skills to do so. With this it was able to bypass the maximum cd reduction of 50% aswell. (from my own build theorycrafting quite a lot of classes can provide both buffs for themselves already tho(quickness and alac)). These buffs work on yourself only tho so no group dynamic builds.

 

But it has to do with competitive modes tho, right? In pve you have two dodges already so it is clearly a thing with competitive modes.

[Moradorin.6217]

On 5/3/2023 at 11:03 AM, pninak.1069 said:

I played mirage a few times in wvw and fought a few ppl. I mainly play pve tho so I don'T have the experience as longtime wvw-players. However I think that ppl are maybe overwhelmed by things they need to pay attention to on mesmer. Dmgwise it seemed fine to me. Most of the 1vs1s are relativly short so alac won't matter as much.

 

There is also the fear of gw2's mesmer falling into the same fate as gw1 where it was considered an unusable class before gw2 came out. But since then it has become the main dmg dealer as it has two of the strongest attributes in the game while also dealing armor-ignoring dmg. These attributes where skill activation speed increase and skill recharge reduction without relying on skills to do so. With this it was able to bypass the maximum cd reduction of 50% aswell. (from my own build theorycrafting quite a lot of classes can provide both buffs for themselves already tho(quickness and alac)). These buffs work on yourself only tho so no group dynamic builds.

 

But it has to do with competitive modes tho, right? In pve you have two dodges already so it is clearly a thing with competitive modes.

The only way I ever see Mirage kill ppl in wvw is when ppl with a poor class match up for it and the opponent willingly lingers and lets themself lose. I have not seen a Mirage or any mesmer capable of chasing down and killing a single opponent in wvw in a few years. None.

 

Kill yes, chase down gap close and kill a reasonably competent player?? Not in years. Have not seen it, flat out.

 

Also your off topic. The topic is about how Mirage only has one dodge in wvw/pvp and two in pve and how that impacts continuity of play.

It became a topic again after Vindicator was announced as a one dodge (in all 3 modes) spec that was then given a 2nd dodge (in all 3 modes) and Mirage was designed for 2 dodges but is stuck with one in pvp/wvw without any redesign to compensate/balance for 4 kittening years now.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[pninak.1069]

39 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

The only way I ever see Mirage kill ppl in wvw is when ppl with a poor class match up for it and the opponent willingly lingers and lets themself lose. I have not seen a Mirage or any mesmer capable of chasing down and killing a single opponent in wvw in a few years. None.

 

Kill yes, chase down gap close and kill a reasonably competent player?? Not in years. Have not seen it, flat out.

 

Also your off topic. The topic is about how Mirage only has one dodge in wvw/pvp and two in pve and how that impacts continuity of play.

It became a topic again after Vindicator was announced as a one dodge (in all 3 modes) spec that was then given a 2nd dodge (in all 3 modes) and Mirage was designed for 2 dodges but is stuck with one in pvp/wvw without any redesign to compensate/balance for 4 kittening years now.

 true mirage can't chase even with the ports it has. it is too much risk to do so. think also most ambush skills aren't even that great since it is mostly condi foicussed so taking power most likely handcaps you instead.

 

think it partly to blame on the community tho. I play pretty much all classes and thief and mesmer were longtime considered the best picks because of stealth, evade and ports. think mirage developed anticlimactic to how untamed is these days. it is underrated spec thus has pretty broken traits. meanwhile mirage was a bigshot when pof came out and didn't really manage to sustain its position. I hope it gets it second dodge back or gets compensated for it otherwise(as in more dmg, endurance gain on skill use and similiar). But as said the class design in itself is an issue for many since somehow clones are too much to deal with. there is also the argument to be made regarding trade-offs. most got their trade-off removed and others still keep theirs, some specs just seem to upgrade the class instead of just refining the playstyle. think anet is tampering too much with these inconsistencies. I mean with vindi getting 2 dodges and zerker not losing armor we could go and expect no overheat and toolbelt penalty for holo, weapon swap for bladesworn . . .

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, pninak.1069 said:

 true mirage can't chase even with the ports it has. it is too much risk to do so. think also most ambush skills aren't even that great since it is mostly condi foicussed so taking power most likely handcaps you instead.

 

think it partly to blame on the community tho. I play pretty much all classes and thief and mesmer were longtime considered the best picks because of stealth, evade and ports. think mirage developed anticlimactic to how untamed is these days. it is underrated spec thus has pretty broken traits. meanwhile mirage was a bigshot when pof came out and didn't really manage to sustain its position. I hope it gets it second dodge back or gets compensated for it otherwise(as in more dmg, endurance gain on skill use and similiar). But as said the class design in itself is an issue for many since somehow clones are too much to deal with. there is also the argument to be made regarding trade-offs. most got their trade-off removed and others still keep theirs, some specs just seem to upgrade the class instead of just refining the playstyle. think anet is tampering too much with these inconsistencies. I mean with vindi getting 2 dodges and zerker not losing armor we could go and expect no overheat and toolbelt penalty for holo, weapon swap for bladesworn . . .

Obviously, you have not seen how gross other specs were at release. Spellbreaker, deadeye, weaver, soulbeast, firebrand enjoyed their raw power from release longer than Mirage did. Again it was because no one understood how Mesmer works and thinks its OP. 

You will never see a Mesmer main complain that it is difficult to beat another Mesmer just like a Thief will never complain that it is difficult to beat another Thief. Instead of crying victimhood maybe people should take more accountability and be more knowledgeable of the game instead of asking for nerfs, because in this day and age if you still lose to Mirage it's a skill issue and you should probably uninstall the game. 

[Veprovina.4876]

3 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Obviously, you have not seen how gross other specs were at release.

Yeah, i have to agree with this, and some are still broken.

Mirage, when it was "good" it was really just "ok". I could roam with it pretty comfortably, sometimes killing people, sometimes getting my behind handed to me. People conveniently forget how other Especs of that time were, and far longer than Mirage, and now it's happening to some other "favorites" too... Yet, we were always the problem. 🙄

[Hot Boy.7138]

i'm still refusing to buy EoD until I get my 2nd dodge back.

[voltaicbore.8012]

To me it sounds like mesmer mains want their second mirage dodge back primarily in WvW. Few people seem to mention how mirage can still work in sPvP, and the one person who did early in the thread seems to have been shouted down.

I've said it openly elsewhere, I'm a mesmer hater. My hate is based on the fact that its competitiveness in... the competitive modes seems to depend greatly on the availability of access to blocks, invulns, massive power spikes from stealth requiring macro-like performance from the mesmer, or alternately dependence on confu/torment when taking rapid action and moving a lot (this is relevant only to pre-rework torment) are things players are supposed to do. A 'counter' class sounds cool on paper, until you realize it has to lean very hard into punishing behaviors that other classes must take to be effective. Thus by default, the devs would have to really nerf mesmer's ability to make these huge punishments, which is precisely what they do, and never give anything back. Look at cata in sPvP to see what happens when a class that can freely punish others doesn't get the nerf hammer properly.

And this is NOT in any way the fault of mesmer players. It's just that the class has been bounced around and has so many underlying problems, y'all have no choice other than to rely on these counter-to-how-everyone-else-plays-GW2 things.

I think all these 'counter' properties are what keep mirage (barely) afloat in sPvP. Because sPvP is purely conquest mode, the short bursts of invuln, blink movement, detarget, and stealth are enough to reset because the conflict is fundamentally centered on nodes. Also if you're not pressured enough to run away, there are just enough offensive tools to get the job done in a 1v1.

Note that these are all side-noder behaviors I'm describing, which are often 1v1s. I can see even in sPvP that mirages aren't a huge threat in teamfights for the most part, because those situations aren't about forcing tough decisions on the opponent like side node 1v1s are. As such, I can totally see WvW mirages feeling left behind. And no, I don't think WvW roaming is anything close to sPvP sidenoding. sPvP inherently offers a ton of opportunity to disengage within a short time and distance, where a lot of the open terrain in WvW roaming isn't quite as forgiving in my experience.

I just don't see a stable, healthy long term future for mirage in competitive though, given that it shares the general mesmer class design of being the counter/counterintuitive class. I'm sure there's a studio or a game that could handle a 'counter' class like mesmer, but I'm not sure Anet and GW2 are it.

[semak.7481]

6 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

Few people seem to mention how mirage can still work in sPvP,

Its just doesnt, its so insane trash that way worse player with meta build will wipe the floor with you. If you die to any mirage in pvp its time to uninstall the game and never look back, in fact you should be ashamed to admit you are losing to mirage now.

6 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

I've said it openly elsewhere, I'm a mesmer hater

Thanks fo notifying fellow ppl to not read any further, ty for saving our time ⏲️

[Veprovina.4876]

12 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

To me it sounds like mesmer mains want their second mirage dodge back primarily in WvW. Few people seem to mention how mirage can still work in sPvP, and the one person who did early in the thread seems to have been shouted down.

I've said it openly elsewhere, I'm a mesmer hater. My hate is based on the fact that its competitiveness in... the competitive modes seems to depend greatly on the availability of access to blocks, invulns, massive power spikes from stealth requiring macro-like performance from the mesmer, or alternately dependence on confu/torment when taking rapid action and moving a lot (this is relevant only to pre-rework torment) are things players are supposed to do. A 'counter' class sounds cool on paper, until you realize it has to lean very hard into punishing behaviors that other classes must take to be effective. Thus by default, the devs would have to really nerf mesmer's ability to make these huge punishments, which is precisely what they do, and never give anything back. Look at cata in sPvP to see what happens when a class that can freely punish others doesn't get the nerf hammer properly.

And this is NOT in any way the fault of mesmer players. It's just that the class has been bounced around and has so many underlying problems, y'all have no choice other than to rely on these counter-to-how-everyone-else-plays-GW2 things.

I think all these 'counter' properties are what keep mirage (barely) afloat in sPvP. Because sPvP is purely conquest mode, the short bursts of invuln, blink movement, detarget, and stealth are enough to reset because the conflict is fundamentally centered on nodes. Also if you're not pressured enough to run away, there are just enough offensive tools to get the job done in a 1v1.

Note that these are all side-noder behaviors I'm describing, which are often 1v1s. I can see even in sPvP that mirages aren't a huge threat in teamfights for the most part, because those situations aren't about forcing tough decisions on the opponent like side node 1v1s are. As such, I can totally see WvW mirages feeling left behind. And no, I don't think WvW roaming is anything close to sPvP sidenoding. sPvP inherently offers a ton of opportunity to disengage within a short time and distance, where a lot of the open terrain in WvW roaming isn't quite as forgiving in my experience.

I just don't see a stable, healthy long term future for mirage in competitive though, given that it shares the general mesmer class design of being the counter/counterintuitive class. I'm sure there's a studio or a game that could handle a 'counter' class like mesmer, but I'm not sure Anet and GW2 are it.

Look, no offense, but how would you feel if i told you i hate your class (in your class forums) and that your entire playstyle that you play your class for - is wrong and needs to be changed because reasons.

 

And there's WAY more toxic playstyles and mechanics on other classes, yet i don't go to their forums and write a post how that's wrong and bad. If i play against those, i either learn and adapt, or try to disengage.

 

There's a history of people coming to the Mesmer forums condemning us while doing nothing about actually improving themselves to learn how to deal with us. And then Anet loves to just oblige.

 

Years! Years with constant nerfs and a split core mechanic!

If you die to a mesmer today, please don't blame the mesmer mechanics, look in the mirror first.

[voltaicbore.8012]

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

If you die to a mesmer today, please don't blame the mesmer mechanics, look in the mirror first.

My bad for not making it clearer - I specifically chose to say mirage "works" in sidenoding sPvP, not that it's a killing machine. It "works" in sPvP on occasion as a sidenoder because sidenoding isn't just about kills, it's about forcing bad decisions from the enemy team. Mirage, even with one dodge, can still do that. As I noted, this is vastly different from WvW roaming, which doesn't allow for the same force-bad-decisions power that sPvP does.

Your class is wrong though. In the same way ranger, ele, and thief are also wrong - their core class designs involve elements that are at odds with GW2's fundamental priority on interactively counterplayable combat. Again, as I said previously, it's not our fault things are like this. It's just what happens when a non-pvp game makes interesting non-pvp playstyles, then tries to smash them all together into competitive modes. 

And even more insultingly, warrior (which is an extremely straightforward class that specifically lacks all the fancy weirdness of the 'wrong' classes) has long suffered in all game modes.

The most unique thing about mesmer in competitive seems to be how much mes mains like to pretend like they're the only ones touching the bottom of the barrel. Your entitled salt pleases me.

Edited May 10, 2023 by voltaicbore.8012

[Veprovina.4876]

3 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

Your class is wrong though. In the same way ranger, ele, and thief are also wrong - their core class designs involve elements that are at odds with GW2's fundamental priority on interactively counterplayable combat.

Well, i'm glad you know better than the devs who made the core systems when they developed the game, and in fact designed the Mesmer, Ele, Ranger and Thief to work in conjuction with those systems. I'm sure they'll be glad to hear they were wrong.

 

The only thing that's majorly wrong - and that's what this thread is about - is 1 dodge Mirage.

Particularly BECAUSE of those systems mentioned. Everything in the game was designed around 2.

They further proved it because Vindicator - which was DESIGNED AROUND 1 DODGE - had to get 2 because it just didn't work.

 

Yet Mirage still has one, and is still debated heavily if we should get it back which is asinine and there is no argument on why we should be limited to one, especially in this sad state.

 

Everything else you said is very... I was banned twice already, i'll just stop.

[apharma.3741]

He's not entirely wrong and does have some valid points about rotating invulns, blocks and stealth and in the very distant past condition mesmer especially in WvW was utterly disgusting. I remember the advise on how to fight condition mesmer was "run away because they can't catch you" which ironically works for most mesmer builds that might be able to win in a 1v1. However much of it's teeth has been removed by the torment change.

He's also not completely wrong about PvP and mirage, in fact today Boyce was playing it and killing people. However he wasn't fighting players of his calibre and usually wouldn't play mirage vs someone like Drazeh because he knows it's not competitive with other meta classes and builds. Just like you won't see mirages in the later stages of mAT because it's just not competitive.

Invuln spam needs to go, as well as many of the reset/double cast mechanics, desert distortion and who on earth thought double mind wrack was a good idea clearly didn't know how strong it was. What needs adding in is solid reliable damage skills, mobility and at the very least short range teleport/switching more often because "mesmers shouldn't get hit" is the reason all mesmer heals are awful.

I think it would help voltaicbore to say how broken ranger is in WvW and why so people don't think he's a mesmer hating hypocrite.

[Gesbo.6420]

I just don't understand why when there is no other thread with 600+ replies on it why isn't this targeted already... Lound minority and whatever but it should still be a little bit more of a pressing issue. Rework Mirage completely if you have to but at least make it playable...