Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[Varis.5467]

3 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Whataboutism is not an excuse for poor reasoning, especially when everyone has a grudge against your class.
I base my opinion on what I have seen and that is that if you guys have been playing mesmer since beta you have never been very good at it. I have also seen players far better than me dumpster others in WvW on chrono, mirage and other builds. Does that mean all is fine? No but I'm not about to let my lack of skill colour my assessment of a class and say it needs buffs that will only end up with massive nerfs.

Last time the hate crew went after mesmer we lost our interrupt builds and almost lost Power Block. A whole playstyle gone due to a lack of critical assessment that our CC potential had tripled since those traits were created. If you really have been playing mesmer since beta you and others here would know what happens when buffs are handed out and abusive mechanics are not touched, the last 2 or 3 years is what.

So essentially, trimming all the fluff from your multiple responses your points are superior because:

 

- Your opinion is more valid because you deem yourself a better player than others, and the validity of any opinion diminishes with inexperience (based on your judgement, and short exchanges on a forum, alone) 

 

- People are inexperienced because they don't share the same opinion with you and that you have never seen them around here 2 two years ago. 

 

Yeah, brilliant. 

I wonder what's the price of eggs today. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Varis.5467

[godfat.2604]

22 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Funny you mention IP, we lost IP on Virtuoso but no-one seems to be making a fuss out of it.

At first when I was trying Virtuoso at beta, I did feel pretty bad without Illusionary Persona. However perhaps that's by design from the very beginning, I started to think it's fine. My guess for why people didn't make a fuss:

* Technically, Virtuoso didn't really lose Illusionary Persona, because it never had it. Illusionary Persona became baseline before Chronomancer, so both Chronomancer and Mirage had it from the very beginning. We can say it's only about the feeling of losing or not, but we can also say it might be one of the core designs of the spec.

* Clones are easy to be cleaved down to deny Shattering, Illusionary Persona is an important trait to ease the shortcoming. Virtuoso can't lose blades thus Bladesongs can't be denied this way, making it less important with Illusionary Persona.

* With the cast time, travel time, visual tell, Bladesong Dissonance is not going to hit players anyway. Even with Illusionary Persona it won't help too much :shrug: I seriously think this skill should be reworked. At least make it a stun for example.

22 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

It's also not really my job to fix the mess and mark my words it's a complete mess after all the gutting and changes needed due to Chrono and Mirage.

For sure, so I am not saying that we should actually make a proposal, even though that would be nice to show the ideas. No free work for Anet. My point is just wordings. Just replace all "remove" with "rework", and I am sure that's also what you meant, so we can be more on the same page. We had suffered from too much removal, so we got pretty sensitive seeing that.

22 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

The main issue is that most specs lack a proper vision and execution of whatever vision it has. Take Chrono, it has a shield, thematically it's about speeding up and slowing things down and has wells that are AoE and affect allies and enemies, it should be the ideal team fighter/support. What it actually ends up being is either a duellist or often meme one shot damage dealer where the wells are largely ignored in PvP/WvW because they're just plain bad.

Fully agreed. I was extremely disappointed about the well designs, and their recent "rework" was still awful, contradicting to their own words and promise that it's difficult to use for the last pulse, yet they still put Superspeed on one of them, while moving the Superspeed from last pulse to first pulse for Scrapper :rofl: If this is not bias, what it is I really wonder.

22 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Continnum Split: Becomes defiant stance like skill for 1 +1s per clone, after expiration applies protection and resolution for the same duration as the shatter. 50s CD to start with, needs tweaks.

I would be fine with this if this is still an instant cast. Also, this will be a big nerf overall so the rest of the kits should be greatly improved to compensate.

22 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Signet of Ether: Active: summons the maximum number of clones you can have, blades for virtuoso. Same improved version.

I like this. Why no improved version though? Perhaps it can reduce cooldown or reduce cast time.

22 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Replace with a well trait that summons an illusion on expiration of the well or applies 2-3s protection and resolutions on well cast.

How do you decide the illusion target given that wells are ground target? By the way, I really wish we can keep the clones alive without a target. It might make Mesmer becoming too strong in general, but happy to give up something for this. I am just so tired of constant resetting between battles. Virtuoso did solve this issue, and I wish something can be done for other specs as well, otherwise in PvE it's just very painful against trash mobs. I can accept if it's a trait I guess, so it doesn't need to affect all builds.

22 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Wells: now do the same thing on each pulse.
All's well that ends well: Buff the healing a little or add remove 1-2 condition(s) on cast /1 per pulse.

Do you mean it'll heal for each pulse? That would be quite good.

22 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Illusionary Reversion: Phantasm skills produce a clone on cast. PvE warlock will produce 1 on cast and 2 normally for a total of 3. Shield can produce 4 in total as it has 2 casts.

I like this. This way the damage from shattering can be less back loaded.

22 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

There's also a full line of well traits to bolster a defensive or support build with a defiant stance skill to keep chrono in the fight with protection and resolution to reduce damage taken in general.

I like having more protection and resolution in general. I hate that without taking Inspiration it's very painful against conditions, and taking Inspiration means a great loss of damage.

22 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

This is not an exhaustive list of all changes nor is it a final list of things, it's an idea on how to weed out unfun mechanics in favour of reliable, stronger and synergistic skills/traits.

Honestly I don't really like Continuum Split either, because it can be quite unreliable. However, it's a signature skill which I don't really want to lose either. It's an important flavour. I'll put your defiant stance at the place of Distortion, and rework Continuum Split in a way that it can keep the flavour. For example, it can just repeat the following skills with 50% (or whatever X%) effectiveness, similar to Chronophantasma. I know you probably do not like doubling up, but perhaps by losing the flexibility by casting on the same place/target can balance it out. And it won't be possible to use reset skills to reset again, because it'll have nothing to do with cooldown.

22 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Virtuoso needs the shatters to work without facing a target

For this I'll prefer to have faster cast and/or faster travel time. A lot of skills can cast from behind but I don't think it's healthy. I will prefer to rework all the skills which can shoot from behind, but this level of rework is probably not going to happen.

Edited December 30, 2022 by godfat.2604
Fix typos, grammars, etc.

[apharma.3741]

15 hours ago, Varis.5467 said:

So essentially, trimming all the fluff from your multiple responses your points are superior because:

 

- Your opinion is more valid because you deem yourself a better player than others, and the validity of any opinion diminishes with inexperience (based on your judgement, and short exchanges on a forum, alone) 

 

- People are inexperienced because they don't share the same opinion with you and that you have never seen them around here 2 two years ago. 

 

Yeah, brilliant. 

I wonder what's the price of eggs today. 

Core mesmer still has probably the strongest burst in the game, some come close but you can 100-0 most people almost instantly on mesmer. - Ask any top PvP player.
Celestial virtuoso is one of the best roamers in WvW at the moment, matched by other cele roamers.
Chrono is used in GvG and organised comps for the last 3+ years even when other classes aren't.
PvE there is no mesmer build that is not able to be played, tank chrono is largely dead but the class itself has great low intensity build and is more than capable of clearing all content without trouble.
PvP is the only place mesmer is currently really suffering where you often will not see it played and feels more like a useless pile of rubbish.
Open world mesmer is still very strong and able to solo anything you want just with the rune of tormenting changes it's less forgiving if you're hit.
https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks
https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/mesmer/
https://metabattle.com/wiki/Mesmer

 

Mesmer needs some tweaks, some buffs (especially virtuoso) but as I keep saying, you buff the wrong thing and there's a lot of potential for abuse which will long term be detrimental to the class. This is why mesmer is in the state it is in.

 

So what are YOUR reasons for thinking mesmer is weak and that mirage needs its second dodge back? I for one would rather we get reversions to nerfs caused by mirage (especially on core) so the class can as a whole be more competitive than simply slap a 2nd dodge back on and call it a day. I certainly don't want ill thought out buffs to cause other aspects of the class to be nerfed and entire playstyles to go, remember, many in the PvP Discord are begging for a reason to remove Power Block.

[Varis.5467]

29 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Core mesmer still has probably the strongest burst in the game, some come close but you can 100-0 most people almost instantly on mesmer. - Ask any top PvP player.
Celestial virtuoso is one of the best roamers in WvW at the moment, matched by other cele roamers.
Chrono is used in GvG and organised comps for the last 3+ years even when other classes aren't.
PvE there is no mesmer build that is not able to be played, tank chrono is largely dead but the class itself has great low intensity build and is more than capable of clearing all content without trouble.
PvP is the only place mesmer is currently really suffering where you often will not see it played and feels more like a useless pile of rubbish.
Open world mesmer is still very strong and able to solo anything you want just with the rune of tormenting changes it's less forgiving if you're hit.
https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks
https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/mesmer/
https://metabattle.com/wiki/Mesmer

 

Mesmer needs some tweaks, some buffs (especially virtuoso) but as I keep saying, you buff the wrong thing and there's a lot of potential for abuse which will long term be detrimental to the class. This is why mesmer is in the state it is in.

 

So what are YOUR reasons for thinking mesmer is weak and that mirage needs its second dodge back? I for one would rather we get reversions to nerfs caused by mirage (especially on core) so the class can as a whole be more competitive than simply slap a 2nd dodge back on and call it a day. I certainly don't want ill thought out buffs to cause other aspects of the class to be nerfed and entire playstyles to go, remember, many in the PvP Discord are begging for a reason to remove Power Block.

No one in this entire thread is saying they should slap a second dodge and call it a day. Even you were complaining about people wanting buffs on top of the return on second dodge (and what a crime that is, according to you). 

 

Also, with you in-depth experience and proficiency with mesmer (or so you claimed), it's rather shocking to even hear you bringing up that so called 100-0 'insta' burst mesmer (incase you didnt know, it's a meme). 

 

Typing up fluff words and long essays with ever shifting claims don't make your arguments more compelling. In fact, hours ago you are so hung up on 'rework' over 'buffs' and yet you are now so casually swinging around the notion that memser just needs reversions to the nerfs (aka 'buffs'). 

 

Where are you shifting your argument next? Maybe that you actually main a ranger and don't really play a mesmer anymore? 

 

Get real. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Varis.5467

[apharma.3741]

17 minutes ago, Varis.5467 said:

No one in this entire thread is saying they should slap a second dodge and call it a day. Even you were complaining about people wanting buffs on top of the return on second dodge (and what a crime that is, according to you). 

 

Get real. 

Who said it was a crime? I was warning about giving back a 2nd dodge and the problems it can cause if not done correctly or without a good thought process.
You are getting emotional.

Edit: Just because I don't say rework the abusive mechanics in every post doesn't mean my stance has changed. It's called having a memory. 
Nice of you to think I'm a ranger main, you should take a break, you're clearly letting emotion get the better of clear reasoning.
FYI: this is my playtime:
Elementalist: 5,549 hours
Mesmer: 3,223 hours
Ranger: 493 hours (this is dead last out of all classes)

Edited December 30, 2022 by apharma.3741
Varis added more after the fact.

[Varis.5467]

29 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Who said it was a crime? I was warning about giving back a 2nd dodge and the problems it can cause if not done correctly or without a good thought process.
You are getting emotional.

No, in the contrary I am quite rationally pointing out the contradictions across your multiple threads, and sifting through your inexhaustible escher sentences - so we can all stay on track with the larger discussion at hand. 

 

Edit:

If 3.2k hours is what you have on a mesmer, perhaps those of us who far exceed that mediocre figure should just out right ignore your post then, especially by the logic you presented in earlier posts. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Varis.5467
Typo.

[apharma.3741]

1 hour ago, godfat.2604 said:

At first when I was trying Virtuoso at beta, I did feel pretty bad without Illusionary Persona. However perhaps that's by design from the very beginning, I started to think it's fine. My guess for why people didn't make a fuss:

* Technically, Virtuoso didn't really lose Illusionary Persona, because it never had it. Illusionary Persona became baseline before Chronomancer, so both Chronomancer and Mirage had it from the very beginning. We can say it's only about the feeling of losing or not, but we can also say it might be one of the core designs of the spec.

* Clones are easy to be cleaved down to deny Shattering, Illusionary Persona is an important trait to ease the shortcoming. Virtuoso can't lose blades thus Bladesongs can't be denied this way, making it less important with Illusionary Persona.

* With the cast time, travel time, visual tell, Bladesong Dissonance is not going to hit players anyway. Even with Illusionary Persona it won't help too much :shrug: I seriously think this skill should be reworked. At least make it a stun for example.

IP was added baseline because it was the only class that could often not use it's class mechanic due to needing clones which as you say are easily cleaved, also it helped with handling thieves as mesmers could distort freely. My point was people are quick to bring up no IP on Chrono but it's the same on Virtuoso where we lost something that is baseline now and it's compensation is stocking a blade every 10s ooc and blade generating GM traits. It still feels bad if you have no blades and need to use the block or something, personally I think you should always have 1 stocked.
Also something I noticed, the heal from Restorative Illusions still doesn't scale past 3 blades. I wonder if there's others that still don't work properly?

Rework vs Removal: I tend to say remove when I think something is a problem and it should never come back but yes sometimes it's interchangeable and I get your point. However I am adamant that a lot of the cool down reset mechanics need removing, I still remember when we have the minor trait that reduced all illusion skills by 20% leading to some crazy low CDs if taken and without some crazy high ones. The CDR really needs to be evened out and instant reset or high CDR makes this a real problem. It's for that reason I would rather see continuum split removed entirely, despite how amazing of a skill it is. Too prone to abuse.

Defiant stance like skill would actually be quite a big improvement, it not only makes you invulnerable but converts that damage to healing and yes it would be instant or near instant cast. With Illusions that's a baseline extra heal and invuln in 1 on a 42s CD, less with the alacrity buffing I've set out.

Illusion on well summon: This was only one idea, I think protection and resolution on well cast would be better to promote a support style. Illusion would have been summoned on nearest target, same way as signet of illusions.
Signet of Ether: it's keeping the improved version with the trait, that's extra healing.
All well that ends well: Still heal on expiration but maybe adding an ally condition clear might make it a good support option especially with the state of PvP healing power.
Wells in general: I would want them to work closer to necro wells where they pulse a consistent effect each time, this would not include effects from traits though. Chrono wells have always not worked very well even in PvE where the effect is put mostly on the back.

Virtuoso: I understand the desire for faster cast and animations but for me this is the "I don't have an excuse for hating shatters anymore" spec. I've come across a lot of people who complain about the instant nature of shatters both in game and on the forums over the years so I think it has to stay. The compromise is being able to cast regardless of direction. I do understand the idea of removing the ability to cast anything without facing a target, there's benefits to that but at the same time I believe it would detract from Guild Wars 2's fluid gameplay.

[Moradorin.6217]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

Core mesmer still has probably the strongest burst in the game, some come close but you can 100-0 most people almost instantly on mesmer. - Ask any top PvP player.
Celestial virtuoso is one of the best roamers in WvW at the moment, matched by other cele roamers.
Chrono is used in GvG and organised comps for the last 3+ years even when other classes aren't.
PvE there is no mesmer build that is not able to be played, tank chrono is largely dead but the class itself has great low intensity build and is more than capable of clearing all content without trouble.
PvP is the only place mesmer is currently really suffering where you often will not see it played and feels more like a useless pile of rubbish.
Open world mesmer is still very strong and able to solo anything you want just with the rune of tormenting changes it's less forgiving if you're hit.
https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks
https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/mesmer/
https://metabattle.com/wiki/Mesmer

 

Mesmer needs some tweaks, some buffs (especially virtuoso) but as I keep saying, you buff the wrong thing and there's a lot of potential for abuse which will long term be detrimental to the class. This is why mesmer is in the state it is in.

 

So what are YOUR reasons for thinking mesmer is weak and that mirage needs its second dodge back? I for one would rather we get reversions to nerfs caused by mirage (especially on core) so the class can as a whole be more competitive than simply slap a 2nd dodge back on and call it a day. I certainly don't want ill thought out buffs to cause other aspects of the class to be nerfed and entire playstyles to go, remember, many in the PvP Discord are begging for a reason to remove Power Block.

Over and Over you keep overlooking arguably the most significant aspect of the Mirage one dodge nerf and that aspect is split-mode functionality.

 

Mirage has one dodge in 2 modes and 2 dodges in pve. It was done in haste and as a quick fix to nerf over-performance which IMO was already addressed in all the other damage + cooldown nerfs + clone generation nerfs + vigor nerfs, but OK lets not argue about performance lets JUST argue about BALANCE.

Mirage is the only class that STILL has not had its trade-offs removed. Mirage is STILL the ONLY class in which a core mechanic (dodge) is treated differently and variably per game mode. THE ONLY ONE.

Firstly, I Do Not Agree that adding back a dodge to Mirage in Mesmer's current state would be OP. It would just bring mesmer into a good place again in wvw/pvp.

Secondly, Regardless of Performance per mode Mirage should have a consistent number of dodges between modes make it one dodge or make it two but make it the same in all 3 modes.

 

By your reasoning Why did Vindicator which was deigned for 1 dodge get a 2nd dodge during the same patch that Anet claimed to be rolling back the old trade-offs. I honestly do not see how anyone can attempt to defend Anet's position.

Anet's position on Mirage is 100% indefensible and without credibility.

[mungozen.2379]

4 hours ago, godfat.2604 said:

Technically, Virtuoso didn't really lose Illusionary Persona, because it never had it. Illusionary Persona became baseline before Chronomancer, so both Chronomancer and Mirage had it from the very beginning. We can say it's only about the feeling of losing or not, but we can also say it might be one of the core designs of the spec.

Can someone explain to me, a Mesmer main since 2017, why IP is brought up since it was changed to baseline in 2015?  How is a trait that hasn’t existed for 7 years still relevant to conversations in this forum??

[godfat.2604]

18 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Can someone explain to me, a Mesmer main since 2017, why IP is brought up since it was changed to baseline in 2015?  How is a trait that hasn’t existed for 7 years still relevant to conversations in this forum??

On the update of 2019-07-16: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2019-07-16#Mesmer

Chronomancer lost Illusionary Persona, quoting here:

Quote

Chronomancer shatters require at least 1 clone to activate, and unlike core shatters they do not replicate the shatter effect on the mesmer.

On the update of 2020-07-07: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2020-07-07#Mesmer

This was given back to Chronomancer, quoting here:

Quote

Chronomancer shatter skills can now be activated without clones, and the shatter effect also occurs at the mesmer's location.

I quit Chronomancer during the period. The same can be said to Distortion, except that it took longer time to be given back. I hope we can say the same to the second dodge for Mirage soon.

[apharma.3741]

43 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Over and Over you keep overlooking arguably the most significant aspect of the Mirage one dodge nerf and that aspect is split-mode functionality.

 

Mirage has one dodge in 2 modes and 2 dodges in pve. It was done in haste and as a quick fix to nerf over-performance which IMO was already addressed in all the other damage + cooldown nerfs + clone generation nerfs + vigor nerfs, but OK lets not argue about performance lets JUST argue about BALANCE.

Mirage is the only class that STILL has not had its trade-offs removed. Mirage is STILL the ONLY class in which a core mechanic (dodge) is treated differently and variably per game mode. THE ONLY ONE.

Firstly, I Do Not Agree that adding back a dodge to Mirage in Mesmer's current state would be OP. It would just bring mesmer into a good place again in wvw/pvp.

Secondly, Regardless of Performance per mode Mirage should have a consistent number of dodges between modes make it one dodge or make it two but make it the same in all 3 modes.

 

By your reasoning Why did Vindicator which was deigned for 1 dodge get a 2nd dodge during the same patch that Anet claimed to be rolling back the old trade-offs. I honestly do not see how anyone can attempt to defend Anet's position.

Anet's position on Mirage is 100% indefensible and without credibility.

Consistency is understandable and can agree that it's a good idea. I can get behind restoring the 2nd dodge BUT (for the 3rd or 4th time now) this has to be done carefully otherwise you risk getting the obnoxious mirage builds of the past. Additionally I do not want a 2nd dodge to be a justification for keeping the nerfs that were handed out to balance it initially.

Vindicator (and a few other EoD specs) were designed with the trade off mentality, they have 1 dodge but higher cost and ability to regen depending on traits. Then a design decision came where they're removing all trade offs. Mirage is the only one left afaik and it is entirely because it was complained about so much when it had 2 dodges.

Anet's position is that they want to be careful because EVERYONE has an axe to grind about mirage and mesmer and they don't want it to become a low skill bot class again. That's not to say other classes aren't like this, that is whataboutism, just they don't want a return of that.

[Infusion.7149]

6 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Over and Over you keep overlooking arguably the most significant aspect of the Mirage one dodge nerf and that aspect is split-mode functionality.

 

Mirage has one dodge in 2 modes and 2 dodges in pve. It was done in haste and as a quick fix to nerf over-performance which IMO was already addressed in all the other damage + cooldown nerfs + clone generation nerfs + vigor nerfs, but OK lets not argue about performance lets JUST argue about BALANCE.

Mirage is the only class that STILL has not had its trade-offs removed. Mirage is STILL the ONLY class in which a core mechanic (dodge) is treated differently and variably per game mode. THE ONLY ONE.

Firstly, I Do Not Agree that adding back a dodge to Mirage in Mesmer's current state would be OP. It would just bring mesmer into a good place again in wvw/pvp.

Secondly, Regardless of Performance per mode Mirage should have a consistent number of dodges between modes make it one dodge or make it two but make it the same in all 3 modes.

 

By your reasoning Why did Vindicator which was deigned for 1 dodge get a 2nd dodge during the same patch that Anet claimed to be rolling back the old trade-offs. I honestly do not see how anyone can attempt to defend Anet's position.

Anet's position on Mirage is 100% indefensible and without credibility.

The only reasoning would be Arenanet only cares about PVE. 🤣

Mirage getting its second dodge back should be a priority, IMO.

EDIT: The hilarious part is the response above mine suggesting that mirage should not get second dodge because "low skill bot class". If people are dying to bots then it isn't the dodge that's killing them.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Varis.5467]

29 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

EDIT: The hilarious part is the response above mine suggesting that mirage should not get second dodge because "low skill bot class". If people are dying to bots then it isn't the dodge that's killing them.

LMAO.

 

Perhaps things are different when some people are looking down from that 3.2k play time high point. They might see it differently when they finally reach 7k+. /s

 

But seriously tho, even more hilarious is that in the very same response, it is said in such a tone as if the author knows it as an absolute fact about Anet's policy; yet stated openly his opinions are entirly based on his experience a player earlier. 

 

Ow and of cause, the misuse of the word "whataboutism" never fails to bring a chuckle. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Varis.5467
Formatting.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

Reaks of troll to me! The way this person handles themself, going on and personally attacking people for not having enough experience to voice their opinion, acting like they are way better, and writing essays about stuff that just doesnt make any sense... I've seen this too many times in the Mesmer forum and it's mind numbing and tiresome the least to say. And ironically accusing people of being too "emotional" and trying to belittle people that way, when it's obvious that he/she is the one who's actually emotional and "hurt", just because people don't agree with him/her on this matter.

I get a feeling of desperation from some people now that chances are that Mirage eventually can get it's second dodge back. So I guess they have to shout and whine again, to make sure that Anet doesnt revert this.

And as Infusion said, if you're dying to "bots", then the issue is rather on you than on Mirage's dodge mechanic!  Get better at your game!

Edited December 31, 2022 by AshkyLicious.4729

[Infusion.7149]

 

15:45

reductions getting removed this update there's a couple more that we'll talk about once we get into the profession profession section professional update

15:52

sections um we haven't touched all of the ones that we've identified as kind of problematic for this update Mirage is a

15:58

key call out here this is something that we're still investigating we 100 want to get to a state with Mirage where we can

16:04

give it the full endurance bar back in competitive modes we've been bouncing some ideas around nothing has quite got

16:11

to the level that we feel it is an acceptable change especially considering

16:16

the PVE impact of any change to Mirage so that's still kind of in development on the back burner something we really

16:22

want to get in not for this update but it's 70 something high on our minds especially as we're revisiting these

16:27

trade-offs yeah so pretty much you know we've got several uh trade-offs removed in this patch not every single one of

16:33

them and obviously there's going to be a few that were just not going to really consider Mirage being one of the ones that we are looking at and so in future

16:39

updates we're you know looking to get rid of a few more of them but we have touched several of them uh but

16:45

additionally we've done quite quite a lot more than that we've also removed all of the 300 second traits

 

Found the comments from the devs (Streamed live on Sep 16, 2022).

Edited December 31, 2022 by Infusion.7149
fix time stamp in video link

[Curunen.8729]

Just feel it worth noting that regardless of how apharma comes across, they have made numerous positive contributions in the past on both forums for mesmer, whether or not always in agreement. But I think we're all in the same boat that mesmer in general requires better handling, whether or not it ever happens.

Part of me does agree that Anet need to be careful because I certainly want to stay out of the radar from the community hate brigade.

So much got wrecked before the loss of the second dodge, and should also be looked at. Alacrity sadly doesn't help because everything has to take that into account now - eg it's a small step from lowering deception cooldowns to creating a new "degenerate" build.

I'm sad at the loss of CI immobilise which used to be really fun as a niche trait but got deleted due to mirage. Nevermind things like vigour etc.

If, as I expect, dodge stays coupled to ambush (more radical changes would as discussed in the past be ambushes as F skills), and the ability to dodge whenever remains, more needs to be looked at to scaffold endurance restoration.

For me things like Elusive Mind being such a mundane temporary fix also need addressing. Sure have condi cleanse somewhere in the line, but for goodness sake make the GM interesting.

I still believe IH should be the GM minor trait and there should be a thorough ambush pass balancing the whole spec around this first. Then give three majors that each have good reason for use.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

10 hours ago, Curunen.8729 said:

Just feel it worth noting that regardless of how apharma comes across, they have made numerous positive contributions in the past on both forums for mesmer, whether or not always in agreement. But I think we're all in the same boat that mesmer in general requires better handling, whether or not it ever happens.

Part of me does agree that Anet need to be careful because I certainly want to stay out of the radar from the community hate brigade.

So much got wrecked before the loss of the second dodge, and should also be looked at. Alacrity sadly doesn't help because everything has to take that into account now - eg it's a small step from lowering deception cooldowns to creating a new "degenerate" build.

I'm sad at the loss of CI immobilise which used to be really fun as a niche trait but got deleted due to mirage. Nevermind things like vigour etc.

If, as I expect, dodge stays coupled to ambush (more radical changes would as discussed in the past be ambushes as F skills), and the ability to dodge whenever remains, more needs to be looked at to scaffold endurance restoration.

For me things like Elusive Mind being such a mundane temporary fix also need addressing. Sure have condi cleanse somewhere in the line, but for goodness sake make the GM interesting.

I still believe IH should be the GM minor trait and there should be a thorough ambush pass balancing the whole spec around this first. Then give three majors that each have good reason for use.

I have no reason to not believe you about his contributions, but that doesnt make him superior in any way!

Even people like apharma needs to learn to skip the rude attitude when they are debating with people, cuz that never takes you far in a debate anyways. Respect people for their opinion, even if you don't agree with them yourself. Belittling people and acting like a wiseacre, just makes him look bad at the end of the day, people stops taking him seriously and he just falls under the "Troll" category in most of the Mirage mainers eyes in here. Plus he looses my respect as well. Be mature in every occasion always, if you want to be taken seriously!

Edited December 31, 2022 by AshkyLicious.4729

[Loic.9657]

How about "dune cloak" ?

 

 

 

 

Wait...is there such a thing?

Edited December 31, 2022 by Loic.9657

[Varis.5467]

5 hours ago, Curunen.8729 said:

Just feel it worth noting that regardless of how apharma comes across, they have made numerous positive contributions in the past on both forums for mesmer, whether or not always in agreement.

No one is debating their contributions - frankly, it is irrelevant and the number of accumulated posts does not make one's opinion more right nor does it justify their poor attitude. 

 

What IS relevant is the argument they propose and the reasons supporting said argument. However, if the argument is only supported by self-proclaimed superiority, it is not unrealistic for others to disagree. At this point said argument lacks proper backing, and by extension loses the value for discussion, it is simply stripped down to a rumbling wall of text, all the while being disrespectful indiscriminately for no reason. 

 

[Moradorin.6217]

11 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Consistency is understandable and can agree that it's a good idea. I can get behind restoring the 2nd dodge BUT (for the 3rd or 4th time now) this has to be done carefully otherwise you risk getting the obnoxious mirage builds of the past.

TBH at present I dont think Mirage has enough vigor uptime + condi pressure, etc to be obnoxious. Even before the one dodge nerf it was far from being oppressive. I dont really agree that is an issue. Respectfully, I will just say, I feel its an outdated argument position.

More patches have piled on many more nerfs onto any remaining Mirage builds after one dodge happened.

I myself continued to play one dodge about a year in wvw. I finally stopped around early 2021 cause of all the continued nerfs and I got sick of not feeling like I can swap modes fluidly on my Mesmer (former main w ~6k hr on that Mesmer ~14k hrs on main account). I mostly play Engi, Rev, Necro, Ranger now with some Thief thrown in depending and I avoid any builds that require much time investment after my experiences with Chrono then Mirage.

Also you are still missing my argument. I would be ok with Mirage having one dodge in 3 modes. Im just not ok with it having a variable number of dodges per mode.

That said, I think if it was reduced to one dodge in pve it would be pretty under-powered without significant buffs to compensate, which was never done for pvp/wvw in 3 years now.

 

IMO be it with one dodge or two the real thing that it needed 3 years ago was just to have its ambush damage adjusted to be inline with what ever performance level is deemed right and if dodge in place allowing for clones to ambush if Mirage is immobo or CCed is an issue (pets, etc all still do it on other specs tho) then add a cooldown to IH or better yet just make IH not trigger when the player has immobo/CC on them and its no longer an issue.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

@Double Tap @Cal Cohen.2358

So for traditions sake (for this thread) and for pressuring Anet to actually revert this:

☝🏼🔼🆙️⬆️ with this thread!

Mirage needs to get fixed badly Anet! most of us Mirage mainers feel neglected, and it's been like this for too many years! Show us that you can fix this eSpec, and give us a reason to be able trust you again! Listening to other players and just slap nerf on nerf on a class, isnt ok in any way! That's just a lazy way to cater to the loud screamers, and at the sametime contributing to destroy our experience in this game.

You created Mirage, you had a vision when you created this spec! It's not like you can just remove this spec from the game either. So fix it! You have plenty of great suggestions from us players to read, so Im not going to list them again in this post. Read them, and make Mirage your priority for once! Thank you!

[Curunen.8729]

@AshkyLicious.4729 @Varis.5467

I agree with both of you and think it's wrong to assume anyone who doesn't post videos or win pvp world tournaments doesn't know how to play, or have an understanding of how mesmer could be designed. I believe there are many people who have done great play eg in wvw but will never be known. And certainly not to belittle over disagreement.

 

I really do want to hope that Anet will one day do a great job with mesmer. Though seeing surface level solutions like distortion put on virtuoso doesn't inspire much confidence of deeper changes in the future. Most patches appear to have a very limited word count under mesmer, and for restoring 2 dodges I'd hope to see a bunch of other changes as well.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

On 12/31/2022 at 11:19 AM, Curunen.8729 said:

@AshkyLicious.4729 @Varis.5467

I agree with both of you and think it's wrong to assume anyone who doesn't post videos or win pvp world tournaments doesn't know how to play, or have an understanding of how mesmer could be designed. I believe there are many people who have done great play eg in wvw but will never be known. And certainly not to belittle over disagreement.

 

I really do want to hope that Anet will one day do a great job with mesmer. Though seeing surface level solutions like distortion put on virtuoso doesn't inspire much confidence of deeper changes in the future. Most patches appear to have a very limited word count under mesmer, and for restoring 2 dodges I'd hope to see a bunch of other changes as well.

❤️ to you! 

Now this is how people debate with eachother, reasonably and respectfully! Thank you!

I agree with you fully on how Anet handles Mesmer on a surface level only, and them being very biased on how they treat Mesmer compared to the other professions. Virtuoso is the perfect example of that, an eSpec that could've been great and unique! Anet created a very bland and souless eSpec with many weird disadvantages, just to make sure that they cater to other none Mesmer players, rather than actually creating an interesting spec for us Mesmer mainers.

As somebody said in another thread before, Mesmer in Gw2 is like Britney Spears life story! No matter what she does, you can be sure of scandals and hate coming her way. She'll never do anything good in peoples eyes and people are ready to bash her down and stomp on her.  She'll do these amazing performances, but people will still bash her whole existence for it. That's Mesmers life story as well! 😅

Edited January 1, 2023 by AshkyLicious.4729

[Mell.4873]

I have said it before but the best way to re-add the second dodge is to put a cooldown on the Ambush (like Untamed) 

That doesn't really prevent your PvE playstyle being carried across but it does prevent what players found most frustrating about fighting mirage which was the crazy burst while being Immune to CC and damage. 

 

A simple 10 second cooldown would largely stop it being anything close to how dominating it was before and the second dodge would not give the class to much invulnerability since Virtuoso has the same playstyle. 

[apharma.3741]

@Curunen.8729 Thank you.

For everyone else, go read my first post in this thread.

When I say people have an axe to grind about mesmer I mean stuff like this, thread to nerf the class beyond being viable, lots of replies, likes etc. Threads about buffs almost nothing, no-one is interested. Apart from Virtuoso defence spam mesmer is not strong in the meta but still.

Here's an example of how to acknowledge the bad stuff and have a conversation about it: