What are we losing by keeping the game PEGI 13+?

[Valisha.8650]

It really seems to me like making the game "minor-friendly" was a gunshot in the knee for the development. Had anet decided to at least make it 16+ rated, we could of received a much more "juicy" and detailed combat visuals, less Disney-ish story writing, beyond silly forums profanity filter, and at the very least, we would not see people crying about their precious kid hearing one or two "bad words" in the EoD story dialogs (actually happened). Now, while I do not have the official statistics, it seems safe to presume from my personal experience over 95% of the playerbase (and possibly over 99% of people actively participating in gemstore microtransactions), are at the very least aged 16 yo or above, so keeping rating so low seems like favoring 1% of least influential players, over the remaining 99%

So my topic I would like to bring to the discussion table today is - What is the point of the "13+" rating? Do we actually need it, or was it simply, a kindly motivated, yet still mistake?

As usual, keep the response posts constructive and mannered.

[mungozen.2379]

It feels like you are undervaluing the impact of gamers 13-15.  Parents will buy kids games based solely on the rating it has. As GW2 is F2P at base, I’m sure many teenagers download this with their parents blessing after seeing the 13 rating. Include that GW2 has family appeal which in turn allows parents and kids to play together. and parents will buy their kids gemstore  skins and utilities  

As well, I don’t believe that the writing in this game would be any better if the rating changed. Sure, they could tackle more adult themes and content but the writing and voice acting in this game wouldn’t suddenly become that much better for it. 
 

And what, gory combat effects?  It would still be an eyesore of color whether it’s bloody red or prismatic explosions. 

[Strixxe.2019]

This.  In my guild alone im the youngest, and im 27. Majority are well in their 30s and 40s

It feels that that anyone who is atleast mastery lvl 100 is well over 18. So yeah i aggree that rating for teens or even 18+ would give devs alot more freedom in storytelling. 

[Valisha.8650]

4 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

It feels like you are undervaluing the impact of gamers 13-15.  Parents will buy kids games based solely on the rating it has. As GW2 is F2P at base, I’m sure many teenagers download this with their parents blessing after seeing the 13 rating. Include that GW2 has family appeal which in turn allows parents and kids to play together. and parents will buy their kids gemstore  skins and utilities  

Interesting opinion. I guess we would of require some statistics for average yearly $$$ spending in each age group in GW2 to settle this question out.

5 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

As well, I don’t believe that the writing in this game would be any better if the rating changed. Sure, they could tackle more adult themes and content but the writing and voice acting in this game wouldn’t suddenly become that much better for it. 

Fair point, in all honesty.

6 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

And what, gory combat effects?  It would still be an eyesore of color whether it’s bloody red or prismatic explosions. 

Eh, true. I highly doubt anet could make them look visually decent without a ton of already ubiquitous visual clutter. Perhaps some minor effects, like a stains of blood on your sword after dealing with ~3 enemies, could be sufficient. Something akin to Mount and Blade games.

[Valisha.8650]

9 minutes ago, KrivukasLT.3507 said:

This.  In my guild alone im the youngest, and im 27. Majority are well in their 30s and 40s

It feels that that anyone who is atleast mastery lvl 100 is well over 18. So yeah i aggree that rating for teens or even 18+ would give devs alot more freedom in storytelling. 

My experience seems to match yours in that regard.

[Labjax.2465]

Is that why we don't have swimsuits? 😛

Kind of joking about shoehorning that in, but I'm also kinda seriously wondering now about some of the choices made with this game, I didn't realize the rating was such young min age...

Also wondering if I've been encountering people that young sometimes and didn't realize it. O.o God, I hope not. Got nothing against kids, they're great, but the older I get, the weirder it feels to think of it; I wouldn't talk to an adult the same as a young teenager on all subjects, ya know. Last thing I need is more reasons to compulsively filter myself, I already do that enough as it is. I guess this is one time my tendency to avoid socializing in this game comes in handy lol.

[Valisha.8650]

7 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Is that why we don't have swimsuits? 😛

Kind of joking about shoehorning that in, but I'm also kinda seriously wondering now about some of the choices made with this game, I didn't realize the rating was such young min age...

Also wondering if I've been encountering people that young sometimes and didn't realize it. O.o God, I hope not. Got nothing against kids, they're great, but the older I get, the weirder it feels to think of it; I wouldn't talk to an adult the same as a young teenager on all subjects, ya know. Last thing I need is more reasons to compulsively filter myself, I already do that enough as it is. I guess this is one time my tendency to avoid socializing in this game comes in handy lol.

Nah, I do not think you should worry that much. Especially in the times we live in, there are issues of higher seriousness to focus on 😛 

[kettering.6823]

I don't like kids and actively wish there was a separate internet just for adults so I don't have to interact with them, but I disagree with this lol. Like, just because the player base skews older doesn't mean everyone wants blood and guts and such (I am making an assumption that's what you mean by 'juicy', apologies if you mean something else). I have a lot of other games I can play if I want that kind of thing. I like that GW2 keeps the gore to a minimum, personally, and even as someone who swears like a sailor I don't think that would bring anything to the table, writing-wise. They're still able to sneak in plenty of innuendo as it is. Plus, in terms of practicality, this would just never happen this late into the game's development. I don't see why they would suddenly change the game's rating. 

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I'm not sure an 'M' rating would have helped the game (Nothing between 'T' and 'M'.).  Certainly would discourage families gaming together, I suspect. 

[Labjax.2465]

2 hours ago, Valisha.8650 said:

Nah, I do not think you should worry that much. Especially in the times we live in, there are issues of higher seriousness to focus on 😛 

If you mean about filtering myself and all, prob my social anxiety rearing its head, tbh.

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

kids don't ask permission to use daddy/mommy's CC *wink* *wink*

[Tukaram.8256]

The higher rating might make it more popular with kids. 

I know when the ridiculous rating system came out for music, I simply quite buying anything that did not have the warning label... prudes would put the label on any artist I liked.  When my son was growing up I certainly did not care what games he got. Sex or violence in games (or cussing in songs) does not make someone go 'bad'. 😎

[Sunchaser.9854]

I mean are we looking at a darker tone vs run of the mill, you are the super good guy, you beat up every problem (including political) with good violence. Does the ambassador not trust you? Just kill them in a 1v1, yay. Because you are the good guy and now he is dead or in jail. 

Or are we looking at like witcher3 or red dead redemption 2 styled scenes or mass effect romantisible npcs? Or bdo chest sliders? I typically play mmorpgs to have the fun progressive loot grind having items and unlocks that dramatically can change gameplay.

From even fan modded rpg servers where Phoenix armor could offer you self revive chances on cd, special weapons could have special attack effects creating shockwaves or rings of earth etc. I loved that. But I think a witcher content endorsed snargle in the strike zones would feel a bit off to me. Plus I don't think I want to think about a charr having to watch the lord Karen and Queen jennah and kasmeer mead storyline. 

[Zok.4956]

4 hours ago, Valisha.8650 said:

What is the point of the "13+" rating? Do we actually need it, or was it simply, a kindly motivated, yet still mistake?

The game is rated 12+ in germany. I do know that several players started GW2 when they were 12-14 yo. I don't think it would be  an easy task, or a well received one, if Anet would change the rating 10 years after release of the game. And why should Anet want to do this?

 

4 hours ago, Valisha.8650 said:

Had anet decided to at least make it 16+ rated, we could of received a much more "juicy" and detailed combat visuals

More splatter and gore would not make the combat or the game better. GW2 is not that kind of game.

 

1 hour ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

kids don't ask permission to use daddy/mommy's CC *wink* *wink*

That doesn't make it right. (Some) Kids don't ask permission to use daddy/mommy's drugs either.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Zok.4956

[patton the great.7126]

You want pornography watch pornography. You want chastity watch veggie tails, you want comedy watch the news. Guild wars is just fine as is, no need to go off the deep end. 

[Veprovina.4876]

And what exactly would we be getting by making it "more mature"?

I mean, if you think this game is for kids and it's bothering you, don't play it...

I fail to see what "juicy combat", and "bad words" would bring to the atmosphere and feel of the game...

You want every other NPC to cuss or something? Cause i don't.

If you want "mature content" play games that have it. There is nothing that would be improved in Tyria by making it bloody with cussing and presumably you want sex scenes in there too to not make the story "disney-ish" or something?

 

This is not that kind of game, and thank god this is not that kind of game, i would probably stop playing it years ago if they started making Tyria some depressing "mature" gorey edgelord place.

 

It's perfect as it is. There's enough dark moments in it without needing to make it graphic and explicit.

[Labjax.2465]

15 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

And what exactly would we be getting by making it "more mature"?

I mean, if you think this game is for kids and it's bothering you, don't play it...

I fail to see what "juicy combat", and "bad words" would bring to the atmosphere and feel of the game...

You want every other NPC to cuss or something? Cause i don't.

If you want "mature content" play games that have it. There is nothing that would be improved in Tyria by making it bloody with cussing and presumably you want sex scenes in there too to not make the story "disney-ish" or something?

 

This is not that kind of game, and thank god this is not that kind of game, i would probably stop playing it years ago if they started making Tyria some depressing "mature" gorey edgelord place.

 

It's perfect as it is. There's enough dark moments in it without needing to make it graphic and explicit.

Idk, there are places in-between 13 and being gratuitous, and "mature" does not have to mean depressing. I think that perception is largely owed to media that basically acts like "if we're gonna go for a not-family-friendly rating, then we might as well go as dark as possible." Tbf, younger rating also doesn't have to mean boring for adults. Some media for kids actually has pretty clever writing (spongebob comes to mind) where it's both entertaining for kids and has stuff that an adult might relate to, but is written in such a way it will go over the kid's head. I think what you can gain (granted, it doesn't always pan out this way, it often seems to lean toward gratuitous in practice) is writing that is more explicitly about adult issues and experiences, without needing to code everything under layers of euphemism and metaphor. In other words, one thing you can gain is writing that more precisely helps adults process things and feel seen.

But I realize some people would not want that and it's prob way late for a major tonal shift, I see this as more of a theoretical convo about it. I'm just saying where value could be in it for some without needing to be gratuitous.

[Obfuscate.6430]

Reality has been gritty enough, why do we need more grit, edge and darkness in the game? 
Some of the chapters were horrifying enough like the events that occurred in the Ice Brood Saga.  The developers have pushed the game to the very border of the rating and it went really well. Why do you need more? 
If anything, we could use more levity. 

 

[Batel.9206]

What would you gain by changing the game's rating?

You can certainly tell a gripping story without making it R-rated (well, M-rated for a game). You can have fun, engaging combat without gore spraying everywhere. You can have well-written dialogue without profanities. Changing the rating wouldn't automatically mean the game gets better.

[Labjax.2465]

6 minutes ago, Batel.9206 said:

What would you gain by changing the game's rating?

You can certainly tell a gripping story without making it R-rated (well, M-rated for a game). You can have fun, engaging combat without gore spraying everywhere. You can have well-written dialogue without profanities. Changing the rating wouldn't automatically mean the game gets better.

One of the drawbacks I see in stuff with lower rating is it can reach this point where it feels like "nothing actually matters." Our actions over here had consequences, but then we found the Magic Eight Ball of Grafaldamor and it allowed us to save the world. In fairness, there are some permanent consequences in this game, but there's also a lot of "we'll figure it out with a plot device in the end if we have to." It's also just a trap that fantasy in general can fall into, where special powers fluctuate in their effectiveness depending on what the plot needs. When the hero needs to lose, their powers fail them. When the hero needs to win, they find an extra burst of power from somewhere.

There are degrees of critique within this and not all of it applies to this game, but that's one way I look at it.

[Cronospere.8143]

I think it would be weird to suddenly see blood and sweat instead of Aurene's Prismatic Rainbow. 

 

Elementist uses meteor shower on the wrong spot and the npc splashes into melted pieces. 

 

[SamuelW.2685]

Nothing

What are we to gain if the game suddenly got a M rating? More swearing, violence, and skimpy attire? A better written story?

I swear like a sailor, and I'll admit, it can add a certain impact to something if used sparingly, but you can say bad words in T games. Hell, in one of the flashback scenes in IBS, Almorra tells Bengar to kiss her furry kitten. Final Fantasy 15, also rated T has one of the characters say's sh!t later in the game. They could add swears if they want to, but they'd need to do it sparringly.

And violence for violence's sake is meaningless, there's no need for the game to be more gory, or bloody, I can't think of anytime where more gore and blood would be useful in story telling here. Also can't think of any skills where I think having them be more bloody would help, MAYBE having visible poison and bleeding from those two conditions but that's it.

And for more sexy/skimpy/explicity stuff, I want to let you know that FF14, rated T, is FAAAAAAAAAAAR more skimpy then GW2. So if Anet suddenly decided to add more skimpy attire, they very well could and still keep a T rating.

Those are the top 3 things I can think of, but honestly, what else could we hope to gain? More mature themes in the story? We already have that, I mentioned Bengar and Almorra, and in that same instance...

Spoiler

...Bengar stabs Almorra in a cutscence, the camera is facing her back, and theres no blood, but you can sure as kitten tell he stabbed her.

 

There's plenty of other mature themes in GW2, the Slyvari's relationship with Mordremoth, the policical landscape of Elona (ignoring Joko being a comical as hell villian), the Charr civil war. you get my point.

Is everything I listed well written? Ehhhhhhhhhhhhh, some is good, some is bad.

So having a M rating wouldn't improve the either story, I wouldn't be surprised if it just made it worse in fact. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by SamuelW.2685

[Freya.9075]

Making games "more mature" doesnt appeal to all "mature" players. One of the reasons i like gw2 is because it doesnt have the gore or "adult content". Seeing blood splattered is not appealing to me.

Gw2 would gain nothing by raising the rating to M instead of T. Storywise or gameplay.

[Mungrul.9358]

I don't think the rating has any bearing on the story at all to be honest.

My favourite zone and associated story in the entire game is incredibly dark and sorrowful without ever feeling the need to shove it in the players' faces.

Bjora Marches is an excellent display of mature storytelling that can be consumed by anyone. It deals with loss, betrayal, despair and madness, while at the same time being genuinely creepy.

[Danikat.8537]

I can't find it now but I read an article a while ago from a video game market research firm which said the appeal of an 18+ or M rating drops by age 25. It's a selling point for teenagers, but once they've had a few years of being treated as an adult the novelty is gone and they're more likely to choose games based on things like genre and length.

Maybe that's why I don't see what it would add to GW2. I do play 18 rated games, and ones rated as young as 3+ (which is the lowest PEGI goes) and I don't think it guarantees better story telling or more genuinely mature themes, it just means it will have more blood and gore and/or sex references (or actual sex in some cases), all of which can be portrayed extremely immaturely if the writers wish to do so.

The rating doesn't even guarantee you'll get much of that. I also play Elder Scrolls Online which was originally rated 16+ because it does have blood effects in some places (like vampires feeding) and some other 'mature' bits, and got bumped up to 18+ when they added the Justice system because they included the ability for the player to murder innocents with no consequences (if they're careful). When that happened they didn't take the opportunity to add more blood, violence, swearing, sex etc. into the game than there was before, even though there's been several expansions since then so they've had plenty of opportunities. They continued making the game they originally intended to make, regardless of the rating it got.
 

4 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

One of the drawbacks I see in stuff with lower rating is it can reach this point where it feels like "nothing actually matters." Our actions over here had consequences, but then we found the Magic Eight Ball of Grafaldamor and it allowed us to save the world. In fairness, there are some permanent consequences in this game, but there's also a lot of "we'll figure it out with a plot device in the end if we have to." It's also just a trap that fantasy in general can fall into, where special powers fluctuate in their effectiveness depending on what the plot needs. When the hero needs to lose, their powers fail them. When the hero needs to win, they find an extra burst of power from somewhere.

There are degrees of critique within this and not all of it applies to this game, but that's one way I look at it.

I think that's a limitation of the type of game, not the age rating. The game is designed to be a persistent online world shared with all the other players and where you can keep playing the same character for years. So they can't (permanently) kill off that character, or have any type of 'game over' ending where you made the wrong choices and now the world is destroyed. They can't even reasonably allow different players to make different choices with noticeable effects because it would split the playerbase. If one player chose to kill Aurene when she first hatched because they saw another potential elder dragon as nothing but a threat, or sided with the White Mantle, or let a major reoccurring character die or whatever they'd have to get a different version of every subsequent release, and there would have to be another one for each of those choices.

This is why a lot of single-player games go with the illusion of choice instead of real choices. It turns out relatively few people want to be the bad guy in a game, and very few replay it to see all the different choices, so the logical decision for developers is to offer choices that all lead to the same place rather than waste time building whole sections of a game which very few players will ever see. (I don't like that, because I am one of the people who will play the same game multiple times to see how it's different, but I understand why they'd do that.)
 

9 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I don't think the rating has any bearing on the story at all to be honest.

My favourite zone and associated story in the entire game is incredibly dark and sorrowful without ever feeling the need to shove it in the players' faces.

Bjora Marches is an excellent display of mature storytelling that can be consumed by anyone. It deals with loss, betrayal, despair and madness, while at the same time being genuinely creepy.

I agree. I'd say Spiritfarer has more genuinely mature story telling (it's all about coming to terms with death) than something like Dead Rising, even though it's rated 12+ and Dead Rising is 18+.

There absolutely are 18+ games with well written stories, including ones which make use of all the things which get it the age rating (the Yakuza series for example) but a higher age rating isn't a guarantee that the storytelling will be better, it just means it has things that rating board considers inappropriate for children or teens.