The new (or old) enemy. [The new LW Lore discussion]

[Zola.6197]

3 hours ago, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

Related to all this: where do folks think the story is going based on what you know right now? (I'm sure there are theories earlier in the thread and I intend to read through it all when I'm on break. Currently in a VO session so I gotta step away from the forums for a bit.)

The story is clearly heading to romanceable companions based on Rama’s comments on the commander’s love life. Soon he’ll wake up and realize Min just can’t provide him the time/devotion that the commander can. 😌💅

My heart shaped sushi is ready for you, Rama. 😳🥴

In all seriousness though, I’m not sure where the story is going. Presumably we’ll see more threats spawn from the mists. Love the idea of delving into demons and other mist entities and the trippy stories we could explore with that. Clearly an entity in the mists has taken notice of us. Perhaps they want to eliminate us to make the world more vulnerable? Perhaps they want to possess us for a stronger physical foothold? Or maybe we’re just a demon buffet of repressed trauma.

Definitely compelling subject material being introduced this patch that I’m excited to see expanded on. Great to see more of Yao, Rama, and Gorrik. Chull-Moo got much needed development/focus. The biggest issue for me was that, while what we got was great, it felt like too little butter across too much bread. I wanted more.

I suppose one of my hopes that wasn’t really based on anything was that the half-maps meant we would get beefier story sections. More dialogue, more time with characters to fully explore them, more instances in older maps since there’s less dev pressure (presumably) on the new map. None of that was confirmed by the studio, but I think we just had so little details that we had to fill in the blanks with our personal desires. I was surprised the hints about Ihn visiting DR weren’t mentioned. I thought Aurene might be the one to alert us something is strange with the leyline in the delve - though I suppose the demon is just feeding and not necessarily “corrupting” the leyline itself. I thought there might be an instance demonstrating how dire the energy crisis is getting or could become. And there were a lot of little hints peppered in EoDs on what stories could come next, and I just didn’t think that would solely be the energy crisis?

Overall there was a lot I liked in this update. It just felt thin, and the meta itself is odd. I can’t comfortably absorb the NPC dialogue because I keep having to WP for another filter and miss chunks of it. I also have found the dialogue very quiet even turned up all the way, and NPCs voices seem to have an incredibly small radius - as soon as they get a few feet away, I can barely hear them anymore. Plus the key cap seems frustrating. I couldn’t open any of the end chests for the meta last night after a single run; apparently I can buy more but I can’t find the vendor. And I had only 2-3 charges of the filter left at the end of the meta and was worried I’d miss loot. Maybe an NPC can set up an emergency filter station at the end fight? You’re kinda screwed if you run out of charges, because you can’t waypoint while in combat.

I do appreciate all the work the dev team has put into the patch. It just felt a little thin after a whole year, though if that’s the price of S1 being back I think it’s worth it, personally. Also was so pleased to go back to DR for the bottle of alcohol and the tea house in NK. So fun! Thanks for all the hard work and being so communicative, Bobby!

Edited March 3, 2023 by Zola.6197

[Balor.8432]

I think the story is going into 2 possible directions dealing with commanders trauma over the past 11(? )years , 1.) Commander could be going crazy because of all the mass amount of magic he/she absorbed over the years from the Dragons Zhaitan, (Mordy and others even more so if a slyvari. Also got Leyline, God, Void, and Ancent magic like Seer(bloodstone),  Dwarves, Agony (Murssat) and artifacts(legendary weapons). Commander has been exposed to alot of magic that made lesser beings insane like white mantle. 2.) Story could go towards the gods and their realms like Fissure of Woe, Realm of Truth/Torment etc.

[Caid.4932]

8 hours ago, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

Related to all this: where do folks think the story is going based on what you know right now? (I'm sure there are theories earlier in the thread and I intend to read through it all when I'm on break. Currently in a VO session so I gotta step away from the forums for a bit.)

Honestly no idea. Just felt a bit thin a sliver of plot to get a footing. The mention of clones and illusions makes it hard to take at face value. The strange selections of enemies, the lack of clarity as to who or what the threat is.

Ok its a mystery for our detectives to solve (?) But i just dont know, i feel like i'd need to be way more familiar with GW1 to have a clue whats going on at this point.

[Zola.6197]

Riffing off the concept of demons, perhaps we'll learn about Ai from the Sunqua Peak fractal as part of our investigation into demons, and head to the western half of Shing Jea to learn more? That, or it could be another demonic hot spot given what happened to Ai, and we'll naturally head there if demonic activity ramps up.

[zealex.9410]

10 hours ago, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

Related to all this: where do folks think the story is going based on what you know right now? (I'm sure there are theories earlier in the thread and I intend to read through it all when I'm on break. Currently in a VO session so I gotta step away from the forums for a bit.)

See it mostly having to do with the void/hazedemon stuff and potentially kanaxai or another demon comming in to benefit from the power vaccum that is not having an elder dragon always be in cantha to regulate magic (aurene will sooner or later move elsewhere). I would be pleasantly surprised if this goes into drowned kaineng and raisu palace for that slice of the post eod plots but im not sure what to expect from the scope of the inbetween updates with this new model so its hard to put it into a structure.

An idea i saw floating around which im becoming a big fan of would be to simply stay longer in cantha for the next expansion as well and explore more of it and it plotpoints in depth, urgoz, old kaineng, the purists etc. The new scope for content seems much smaller and moving from place to play like the old expacs did would likely lead to most places not being explored enough.

[Randulf.7614]

One additional thing Ive thought about is the point about the commanders trauma being a main plot point. I’m a little concerned by this direction. RPGs are broadly either following pre-generated characters (eg final fantasy/solo games) or following an avatar created by us (most mmos and TTRPGs).

In The former, you can explore the facets of the character since they “belong” to the writers and deepening the protagonist is often essential to deepen the storytelling.

In the latter, the character is often considered an extension of the player. - the character “belongs” to us. And we are all very, very different. Crossing into the writers exploring the feelings, character and relationships of the PC is somewhat of a red line since you are writing from a third party perspective and assuming we want to explore those things and considering us all the same. Certainly I object to my character in this episode - a great heroic norn - crying over hallucinations of lost comrades (something he’s seen a dozen times before and wouldn’t be affected by now) or feeling exhausted. I didn’t decide that for my avatar, so I’m uncertain why the writing is choosing to step into my character and decide on my behalf. I hope very sincerely, that line gets dropped at the earliest possible opportunity.
 

Sometimes it is important to explore issues of trauma, but in games like this, it should be via the NPCs and not by taking over our own avatars to do so..

(all thoughts are my own etc and not necs indicative of the wider community, but it’s a very important consideration nonetheless in my opinion)

Edited March 3, 2023 by Randulf.7614

[Guy.9207]

17 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

One additional thing Ive thought about is the point about the commanders trauma being a main plot point. I’m a little concerned by this direction. RPGs are broadly either following pre-generated characters (eg final fantasy/solo games) or following an avatar created by us (most mmos and TTRPGs).

In The former, you can explore the facets of the character since they “belong” to the writers and deepening the protagonist is often essential to deepen the storytelling.

In the latter, the character is often considered an extension of the player. - the character belongs to us. And we are all very, very different. Crossing into the writers exploring the feelings, character and relationships of the PC is somewhat of a red line since you are writing from a third party perspective and assuming we want to explore those things and considering us all the same. Certainly I object to my character in this episode - a great heroic norn - crying over hallucinations of lost comrades (something he’s seen a dozen times before and wouldn’t be affected by now) or feeling exhausted. I didn’t decide that for my avatar, so I’m uncertain why the writing is choosing to step into my character and decide on my behalf. I hope very sincerely, that line gets dropped at the earliest possible opportunity.
 

Sometimes it is important to explore issues of trauma, but in games like this, it should be via the NPCs and not by taking over our own avatars to do so..

(all thoughts are my own etc and not necs indicative of the wider community, but it’s a very important consideration nonetheless in my opinion)

It's one way of seeing it for sure, but personally for me, I see it differently:

Think of it like this: Have you ever seen a karaoke/instrumental version of a popular song? Anet is the composer of the song, and we're here to sing the lyrics written by them. In this case, we create our own character so that they fit in the shoes of the Commander, a "character" (or more specifically, the role of a character) whose actions and events involving them are written by Anet. It's a bit of a collaboration between you and the writers on their side to create a functional story.

Ultimately though, regardless of who and how you create that character, the Commander as a role will always be the same, and because of that I have grown to dissociate any semblance of my "creations" from said role. In other words, the Commander is a character written by Anet, we just so happen to be given the opportunity to project our characters (or in some case, ourselves) into that role of the story. Because of that, I do believe it would be beneficial if Anet choose to do something about the Commander, especially now that there seem to be more and more characterization of them, without having to meet the constraint that players will not be happy with how "their characters" are seen in the story.

[Randulf.7614]

7 minutes ago, NeverLoseGuy.3894 said:

It's one way of seeing it for sure, but personally for me, I see it differently:

Think of it like this: Have you ever seen a karaoke/instrumental version of a popular song? Anet is the composer of the song, and we're here to sing the lyrics written by them. In this case, we create our own character so that they fit in the shoes of the Commander, a "character" (or more specifically, the role of a character) whose actions and events involving them are written by Anet. It's a bit of a collaboration between you and the writers on their side to create a functional story.

Ultimately though, regardless of who and how you create that character, the Commander as a role will always be the same, and because of that I have grown to dissociate any semblance of my "creations" from said role. In other words, the Commander is a character written by Anet, we just so happen to be given the opportunity to project our characters (or in some case, ourselves) into that role of the story. Because of that, I do believe it would be beneficial if Anet choose to do something about the Commander, especially now that there seem to be more and more characterization of them, without having to meet the constraint that players will not be happy with how "their characters" are seen in the story.

I appreciate the point of view, but I strongly disagree with it. I don’t think it’s a collaboration either since we don’t have a say and if the writers decide how my character - and therefore I - feel, then it might as well be a pre-generated character.

Exploring Braham’s trauma was a much better concept (regardless of how one feels about the implementation and I thought they did it well) because they could own everything. My character isn’t traumatised so writing that he is becomes suddenly jarring and it’s cuts a connection with him.

Its one reason I didn’t want to be the commander or leader of the guild. It’s our story, but that can work as a member of the team.

Take Lotro. My character never even speaks and interacts with a story moving around him. Our story is the battles I choose, the quests I take up and get involved in, the people I choose to interact with and the lands I choose to explore. How I feel about the darkness closing and it’s effect on my character emotionally is something left purely for me to imagine, decide and roleplay. GW1 was the same if I remember rightly.

In my opinion this is how the pc should be handled to avoid conflict between writer and player, especially given we all view our own created avatar so differently.

[Zola.6197]

4 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Sometimes it is important to explore issues of trauma, but in games like this, it should be via the NPCs and not by taking over our own avatars to do so..

Personally I think it's incredibly interesting to examine the commander as more of an independent character, and after a decade long war they've carried on their shoulders, there's some intense potential stories waiting to be mined. I don't think your perspective is wrong either, but this is one of those subjective things. Some people are going to love it, and some are going to hate it. I wanna see ANet make some bold choices with the characters in the game, so this potential route appeals to me.

EDIT: If they focused this issue on another character, I have no doubt there would be people hating on that character for years. Like Braham. In the end, whether this type of story focuses on the Commander or an NPC, it's about delivery. It's hard to predict how that will go either way.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Zola.6197

[Randulf.7614]

43 minutes ago, Zola.6197 said:

Personally I think it's incredibly interesting to examine the commander as more of an independent character, and after a decade long war they've carried on their shoulders, there's some intense potential stories waiting to be mined. I don't think your perspective is wrong either, but this is one of those subjective things. Some people are going to love it, and some are going to hate it. I wanna see ANet make some bold choices with the characters in the game, so this potential route appeals to me.

EDIT: If they focused this issue on another character, I have no doubt there would be people hating on that character for years. Like Braham. In the end, whether this type of story focuses on the Commander or an NPC, it's about delivery. It's hard to predict how that will go either way.

Hating on an npc is the sort of interaction writers likely dream of because it’s creating those emotions that are showing signs of investment. No reaction at all is the worst thing that can happen. Yes Braham got hate and partly that’s what they wanted to achieve (it’s more complex than that of course)

With our character, they straddle a much more sensitive line. Rather than creating creating investment, they risk cutting a connection to the character we control.

Now, that won’t be the case with everyone, but the last thing they should be aiming for is a disconnect with our character. I don’t think it’s a positive step to explore it with our character. Having suffered various mental health issues over the years, the absolute last thing I want is to experience it further with an avatar of a video game I use to relax, fight bad guys and save the world.

The other issue is that with the extreme reduction in content, there isn’t the time to delve into this. Every episode needs to be self contained, but with a thread to run into the next episode. If we aren’t going to get full sized episodes anymore, we simply do not have the time to explore plot, the world, the lore etc and examine our own emotional state. If severe cutbacks to story and open world are the direction, then lore and world building take priority alongside the action of fighting the next evil.

Theres regular clamour for more on Kanaxai, more on Menzies, more on Lyssa and the other Gods, more on the Underworld, more on other areas of Tyria, more on the machinations against the Palace. And that’s just the tip. If we start examining our innermost thoughts, feelings and health we are not going to be getting anywhere on this new delivery cadence.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Randulf.7614

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 3/2/2023 at 3:22 PM, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

Oh, so I'm referring to the following:

• Rama's love interest
• Gorrik wanting to take a leadership role
• Yao defending Chul-Moo
• Chul-Moo confronting his leadership failure

 

The main plot is handling the PC grappling with unresolved trauma.

 

There is more to come in the next release. Don't want to spoil where it goes, but some of what you mentioned might be covered there.

To be fair, "Rama's love interest" is so minor that I wouldn't call it a subplot. It's barely a sub sub-plot. It's there for all of five minutes (or longer if you have issues tracking the cats to pet - why no petting animations!? Travesty). Same with Chul-Moo confronting his leadership failure because... I didn't see this at all. And I did the meta twice... People do talk about Chul-Moo's leadership, but he dismisses any minor attempt to talk about it so he's not really confronting anything.

Curious you consider the trauma being the main plot, rather than the demon (who is pretty obviously Kanaxai, a surviving Oni that became Kanaxai-strong, or a "subverted expectations for the sake of subverting expectations" plot twist).

On 3/2/2023 at 3:35 PM, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

Counterpoint:

• At the beginning, we only knew that workers were being "rebellious"
• We discovered the haze and its effects on jade and the workers
• We discovered that the PC is especially susceptible to the effects of said haze
• We now know how the demon is leveraging emotion to weaken its prey
• We discovered a ley-line power source that is potentially a solution toward the energy problem, but also a source of healing for the demon

 

This is a multi-part story, so we weren't going to answer all the questions in one go.

 

All that stated, though, I totally hear you. There were elements that fell flat for you (or just weren't enough). I appreciate you sharing that with us.

Not sure "we discovered the haze makes Jade darker" is really discovering "its effects on Jade". A color change tells us nothing - how is the jade structurally affected? What does it do for the jade being used as a power source? We learn none of that. Just "oh, color change!" All that tells us is that Haze is a very edgy dying system.

About the ley-line power source matter: In End of Dragons its established that the Harvest Temple is over a ley-line. What's preventing Canthans from just digging until they reach that ley-line, since it's known about? This doesn't get commented at all, which made it feel in EoD that a mere ley-line hub was insufficient for the energy problem. Same with simply transporting jade to Tyria/Elona's ley-line hubs and transporting back, though "logistics and costs" is a good reason, it'd be nice to see this answered.

On 3/2/2023 at 3:43 PM, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

Related to all this: where do folks think the story is going based on what you know right now? (I'm sure there are theories earlier in the thread and I intend to read through it all when I'm on break. Currently in a VO session so I gotta step away from the forums for a bit.)

Not sure if you saw it but I posted a long-winded review and theorycrafting earlier in this thread. But to bulletpoint the key points:

1. Somehow, Kanaxai has returned.
2. Gorrik is a jerk who doesn't actually care about the Commander (surely there are better ways than immediately going towards "let's make your trauma worse" to confront this demon)
3. The Deep has been shifted way south, from east of Cavalon (NE of Dragon's End) to underneath The Aurios Mines.
4. GW2 has entered Beyond development slowdown (a lot of lore breaking art asset reuse - e.g., Abyssals and Shadow Beasts, who were exclusively Shadow Army, showing up, and a lack of some standards in content)
5. Female Human PC really needs to add emotion into their VO.

The next release seems fairly obvious, but I haven't seen any hints to expansion 4 yet - I know it was said there would be foreshadowing, but the only thing I see is "demons" really.

[Bobby Stein.3612]

34 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Curious you consider the trauma being the main plot, rather than the demon (who is pretty obviously Kanaxai, a surviving Oni that became Kanaxai-strong, or a "subverted expectations for the sake of subverting expectations" plot twist).

The demon situation is the main plot--the scaffolding of the story. The Commander's trauma is their character arc. I hastily typed out my answer between meetings and VO sessions the other day.

[Zola.6197]

3 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

The other issue is that with the extreme reduction in content, there isn’t the time to delve into this. Every episode needs to be self contained, but with a thread to run into the next episode. If we aren’t going to get full sized episodes anymore, we simply do not have the time to explore plot, the world, the lore etc and examine our own emotional state. If severe cutbacks to story and open world are the direction, then lore and world building take priority alongside the action of fighting the next evil.

Really could not agree less. No matter what we do or where we go, the commander will inevitably be at the center of it, eating up lines of dialogue and focus. We might as well have a compelling character that’s being pushed and pulled by the events of the story/their world vs a blank slate that doesn’t react to anything. As much as I enjoy FF14, the Warrior of Light is the weakest experience of the whole game imo. For the most part, we’re not given the liberty to project whatever we want onto the commander anyway. The commander does demonstrate personality, opinions, their tone of voice and emotions shift, etc even if it’s subdued. The commander has never been a Warrior of Light figure with no real thoughts, feelings, or personality - especially as the game has aged and the narrative team has changed. 

Again, this is a personal taste issue and not worth debating at length. The writers can’t take everyone’s preference into account, and while it’s unfortunate a PTSD/mental health story might bother you, it’s not fair to expect the writers cut a story they’re interested in solely based on that.

 

[Randulf.7614]

24 minutes ago, Zola.6197 said:

Really could not agree less. No matter what we do or where we go, the commander will inevitably be at the center of it, eating up lines of dialogue and focus. We might as well have a compelling character that’s being pushed and pulled by the events of the story/their world vs a blank slate that doesn’t react to anything. As much as I enjoy FF14, the Warrior of Light is the weakest experience of the whole game imo. For the most part, we’re not given the liberty to project whatever we want onto the commander anyway. The commander does demonstrate personality, opinions, their tone of voice and emotions shift, etc even if it’s subdued. The commander has never been a Warrior of Light figure with no real thoughts, feelings, or personality - especially as the game has aged and the narrative team has changed. 

Again, this is a personal taste issue and not worth debating at length. The writers can’t take everyone’s preference into account, and while it’s unfortunate a PTSD/mental health story might bother you, it’s not fair to expect the writers cut a story they’re interested in solely based on that.

 

Yes I understand that, but again we don’t have as much storytelling time as we once had and whilst I adamantly maintain the pc is completely inappropriate to explore these issues (my character doesn’t need to be compelling, just those around him), putting that aside, we risk this taking up time that could be spent on strengthening the “scaffolding” (to quote above).

We got nowhere with this demon arc. If we got some answers, some significant progression and resolution that felt like a full episode I might be more inclined to go softer on the need for exploring additional issues. But, it’s clear we are getting massively less than ever before. The focus needs to be so much tighter in getting out answers and resolution every episode whilst keeping a small thread going into the next. I want to care about what’s going to happen next, not worry I’m going to be drip fed more crumbs to be concluded in a few months time. I don’t want the gaming equivalent of Lost season 2. 

I really, really hope they drop this commander regret and guilt stuff - it’s been overdone in the game already, but if they absolutely must crowbar it in, then it needs to support a strong, tight central plot. Give me that and I get at least something to invest in. It’s ultimately just a video game, but 11 years on and I’m invested enough in the game to want to see it learn and move forward rather in reverse.

Anyway… fun debate! I think I’ve ranted enough on this though 😉

Edited March 3, 2023 by Randulf.7614

[Morena.4567]

On 3/2/2023 at 9:43 PM, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

Related to all this: where do folks think the story is going based on what you know right now? (I'm sure there are theories earlier in the thread and I intend to read through it all when I'm on break. Currently in a VO session so I gotta step away from the forums for a bit.)

I personally am already convinced that the next story chapter will reveal Kanaxai as the big bad behind everything. And I also feel like he'll be dealt with for "good" at the end of the next episode, though I hope not. 

Also judging from what we heard in the story already, I wouldn't be surprised if the "testing" on Commander backfired. Gorrik basically picking their mind apart, digging in their traumas and memories for bait to lure the demon out. But the Commander snaps or gets way too deep into the hallucinations and sees an enemy instead of Gorrik/Rama and attacks them instead. Not kill, but definitely serious enough that it shifts the dynamic drastically. But maybe it would hurt Commander more than the unfortunate victim because it would send them into further guilt. 

But either way, I hope to see that in the long run, Dragon's Watch and other people close to us finally realize that the Commander is not a tool, is not a weapon, is not invincible, but is actually a person with feelings, mental struggles, weaknesses and so on. I think our character is taken for granted, and I could totally see the demon arc changing that.

And if we're talking about experimenting with Commander's inner demons, I expect their death to be brought up. It's been very unused and that's despite the fact that when you think of it, the Commander basically died from burning alive. That and fighting for sheer existence in the Underworld must've not been very pleasant. 

That being said, where I'm absolutely sure the story is going is to instances where the Commander will go into deeper traumas and panic attacks that might or might not absolutely break them but will also bring us some emotional Commander dialogue lines.

I know it's been said a few times already but I need to repeat it because the entire playerbase should be shouting it: the Commander voice acting in this episode was absolutely phenomenal! Especially the delivery from Brandon Bales and Steve Staley. Tumblr and some Discord servers are full of people recording the lines in the last instance and comparing the different races. I've never seen such hype about voice acting. Playing the story on my sylvari male felt so real and cut so deep. The voiceover team outdid themselves!

On 3/2/2023 at 9:22 PM, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

Oh, so I'm referring to the following:

• Rama's love interest
• Gorrik wanting to take a leadership role
• Yao defending Chul-Moo
• Chul-Moo confronting his leadership failure

 

The main plot is handling the PC grappling with unresolved trauma.

 

There is more to come in the next release. Don't want to spoil where it goes, but some of what you mentioned might be covered there.

Lastly, reading this makes me so happy. Chul-Moo definitely needs more screen time, loved the dude's bickering with Captain Fa in Dragon's End. And of course, the unresolved trauma part. I've wanted something like Commander's inner demons and PTSD to be the main story plot for years now. Which makes me more afraid of what "the main plot" means. Does it refer only to this chapter and the one coming up in the summer? Or perhaps the story after that too? Because honestly, mental health is a serious issue that requires a marathon and not a quick sprint to fix. I think it would sit ill with many people who've had depression and trauma issues (myself included, so I am a bit biased) if the Commander was suddenly alright after such a short story arc. 

[Guy.9207]

6 hours ago, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

The demon situation is the main plot--the scaffolding of the story. The Commander's trauma is their character arc. I hastily typed out my answer between meetings and VO sessions the other day.

Now that you mentioned it, will there be any special interactions if the players group up to do the story content together? I would find it weird if all the players end up seeing the same thing or being treated the same way when only the Party Leader (aka The Commander of that instance) would be the one affected. How do you plan to implement co-op elements into this?

[mandala.8507]

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

To be fair, "Rama's love interest" is so minor that I wouldn't call it a subplot. It's barely a sub sub-plot. It's there for all of five minutes (or longer if you have issues tracking the cats to pet - why no petting animations!? Travesty). Same with Chul-Moo confronting his leadership failure because... I didn't see this at all. And I did the meta twice... People do talk about Chul-Moo's leadership, but he dismisses any minor attempt to talk about it so he's not really confronting anything.

Well, considering this patch is a continuation of the End of Dragons story, it's more fair to say this is a minor look-in at the well-established and explored relationship between Min and Rama. We see that Rama is still struggling to find the right moment to declare his feelings for Min outright and he continues to be incredibly sensitive and evasive regarding our inquiries into his personal life.

Concerning your critique of Chul-Moo not having made any real progress, we see in both the initial story instance with Yao and in the reclaiming of the Jadepillar Point Base in the meta that Chul-Moo is accepting that he made missteps and is now willing to change his ways to try and rectify the situation. Firstly, he realizes that Yao is correct in their assessment that it's time for Chul-Moo to repay the loyalty and bravery of his crew by accompanying us back down into the mine to get a better grasp on the situation and to re-establish some semblance of order.

Secondly, after reclaiming Jadepillar Point Base with Yao, he acknowledges Yao's honest intentions in coming to intervene and the gravity of the situation. He thanks Yao and Yao's friends (detective agency and co.) for their help and promises to work to get things back in order with the Jade Brotherhood.

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

About the ley-line power source matter: In End of Dragons its established that the Harvest Temple is over a ley-line. What's preventing Canthans from just digging until they reach that ley-line, since it's known about? This doesn't get commented at all, which made it feel in EoD that a mere ley-line hub was insufficient for the energy problem. Same with simply transporting jade to Tyria/Elona's ley-line hubs and transporting back, though "logistics and costs" is a good reason, it'd be nice to see this answered.

For this gripe, I'd recommend a quick watch of James Cameron's Avatar to get one's head around the multitude of reasons why uprooting an ancient mystical and spiritual location for the resources beneath it is not the greatest of ideas and perhaps not as simple and painless a solution as it might seem.

As for the notion of establishing a highly complex and cooperative industrial jade-charging operation with the rest of Tyria, I'd keep in mind that Cantha just opened its shores to the world and most likely lacks the bargaining power and desire to set up such a massive partnership with other regions of the world that would ultimately make Cantha entirely dependent on them for its continued way of life.

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

GW2 has entered Beyond development slowdown (a lot of lore breaking art asset reuse - e.g., Abyssals and Shadow Beasts, who were exclusively Shadow Army, showing up, and a lack of some standards in content)

Is this point not just your assumption that these creatures are unrelated in the lore? From my perspective, the choice of enemy types for this patch was very deliberate. No dragonvoid enemies (the specifically dragon minion ones at least) in the general open world and something a lot of players might not have caught in the final story mission: all the demonic shades we fight on each platform are specific to the era of story from which each NPC ally died. Zhaitan creatures for the mentor, Mordremoth minions for Eir, and Charr shades for Almorra.

I'd also strongly refute your claim in the post you summarize here that this is on the same level of lore discrepancy as conflating White Mantle enemies with Purists. The Shadow Army of Menzies we encounter in Dragonfall in GW2 is established by one of the Crystal Bloom Sylvari to be basically elemental nightmares. The connection between these entities of darkness and the Void and demons is then further hinted at by Zafirah's gathering of the Zaishen to confront the Void outbreak in the climax of EoD. In my eyes, you're being too particular about the distinction here. Eventually we'll come to discover the Underworld Nightmares, the Shadow Army Nightmares, and the Demon Nightmares are really all parts of the same whole (along with the Sylvari Nightmare and Nightfall, etc.). I get that you don't acknowledge this connection, but I still feel it's hyperbolic to call this a lore discrepancy due to laziness and slow development.

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Female Human PC really needs to add emotion into their VO.

To each their own, but I didn't mind her delivery in this patch. I think a lot of the other voice actors took a more dramatic approach to their delivery than she did, but I like the variety of her more stoic take on the Commander's emotional state here. I will say that Asura Female hit me right in the feels when we were talking to Almorra, though. Rent was due, haha.

[Lord Korag.8439]

On 3/2/2023 at 6:57 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

karka tentacles in the new map. Where at?

Second undeground area, start appear the same moment as the corals, some of them however are kind of short - just the tips.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I think it's sorta implied Menzies is gone anyway? Also when the God realms got messed up by kralk stuff like the abyssals and aatxes likely got spread around. There's definitely something mists related going in imo. 

[Yasai.3549]

I just want the next half of the map, when the true nature of the demon (which could be Kanaxai as many have mentioned) is revealed, they can tone down on the void particle effects and give them some models. Reusing assets is one thing, but when you confirm your demon faction, I would like to see some enemy variants and design. 

[HotDelirium.7984]

If we jump right into the demons story and practically leave Cantha I will be extremely dissapointed. What about the celestial blessing vampires, kirin peak, old kaineng?!

[HotDelirium.7984]

On 3/2/2023 at 11:54 AM, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

Gotta disagree with you there. There's:

• the status quo (calm after EoD) followed by an inciting incident (trouble in the mines)
• a central conflict (unruly workers, a hint of malevolence)
• rising action (evidence of otherwordly threat)
• climax (showdown with said threat)
• a resolution (loss to said threat, with a plan to regroup in the next installment)

 

Totally open to hearing feedback about it not being what you expected or dissatisfaction with quantity or creative decisions. But the structure is there.

Then I'll be short and sweet- I think quantity is the main issue and while you probably aren't the person to give us the why's for many game studio decisions, they may not even be our business but they really should be worked on harder no matter their origin. (or a community manager to slap some clarity and sense into us)  Thank you for your time! 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

12 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Well, considering this patch is a continuation of the End of Dragons story, it's more fair to say this is a minor look-in at the well-established and explored relationship between Min and Rama. We see that Rama is still struggling to find the right moment to declare his feelings for Min outright and he continues to be incredibly sensitive and evasive regarding our inquiries into his personal life.

Not sure I'd agree that this meets the label Stein gave, but fair.

12 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Concerning your critique of Chul-Moo not having made any real progress, we see in both the initial story instance with Yao and in the reclaiming of the Jadepillar Point Base in the meta that Chul-Moo is accepting that he made missteps and is now willing to change his ways to try and rectify the situation. Firstly, he realizes that Yao is correct in their assessment that it's time for Chul-Moo to repay the loyalty and bravery of his crew by accompanying us back down into the mine to get a better grasp on the situation and to re-establish some semblance of order.

Secondly, after reclaiming Jadepillar Point Base with Yao, he acknowledges Yao's honest intentions in coming to intervene and the gravity of the situation. He thanks Yao and Yao's friends (detective agency and co.) for their help and promises to work to get things back in order with the Jade Brotherhood.

I can't say I've seen the first part despite doing the meta twice and hearing all of Chul-Moo's dialogue. His argument for going back down feels completely disjointed to "Chul-Moo confronting his leadership failures", rather most of the time it feels like he's rejecting the idea that he's got failings as a leader.
And with him and Yao, that felt separate from his leadership, and more just about the dynamics between him, Yao, and Joon being continued from EoD.

Maybe it's a matter of perspective.

12 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Is this point not just your assumption that these creatures are unrelated in the lore? From my perspective, the choice of enemy types for this patch was very deliberate. No dragonvoid enemies (the specifically dragon minion ones at least) in the general open world and something a lot of players might not have caught in the final story mission: all the demonic shades we fight on each platform are specific to the era of story from which each NPC ally died. Zhaitan creatures for the mentor, Mordremoth minions for Eir, and Charr shades for Almorra.

You seem to be misunderstanding what I'm referencing. I am not referring to the obvious hallucinations conjured up by the Ravenous Wanderer in the story. I am talking about the generic open world mobs - the two I named, Abyssals and Shadow Beasts, as well as two others that accompany them: Aatxes and Shades.
All four are Nightmares, but they're completely unrelated to each other and The Deep's Nightmare Horde. The first two - Abyssals and Shadow Beasts - are members of the Shadow Army, servants of Menzies which Dragonfall established are cursed to fight focused on Balthazar and those affected by his energy. The second two - Aatxes and Shades -a re natives of the Underworld. The Nightmare Horde, consisting of Oni, Sapping Nightmares, Deep Nightmares, Freezing Nightmares, and Tears of Dwayna, are unrelated to both Menzies and the Underworld - Kanaxai may be related to the Realm of Torment, as in GW1 he name drops the Nightmare Realm, which is another term for the Realm of Torment.

I was never referring to any dragonvoid enemies nor the story mission's enemies. Just the open world enemies.

12 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

I'd also strongly refute your claim in the post you summarize here that this is on the same level of lore discrepancy as conflating White Mantle enemies with Purists. The Shadow Army of Menzies we encounter in Dragonfall in GW2 is established by one of the Crystal Bloom Sylvari to be basically elemental nightmares. The connection between these entities of darkness and the Void and demons is then further hinted at by Zafirah's gathering of the Zaishen to confront the Void outbreak in the climax of EoD.

What? No. The Void outbreak is completely and utterly unrelated to the Shadow Army.

Nightmares are souls twisted by negative emotions into shadowy beastial forms, as established in GW1 and this process is even outright depicted in Hall of Chains via Deathlings. Zafirah gathering the Zaishen was just her fighting an obvious threat to her nation - which is what the Zaishen have always done: protect the innocents.

There is zero relation presented.

12 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

In my eyes, you're being too particular about the distinction here. Eventually we'll come to discover the Underworld Nightmares, the Shadow Army Nightmares, and the Demon Nightmares are really all parts of the same whole (along with the Sylvari Nightmare and Nightfall, etc.). I get that you don't acknowledge this connection, but I still feel it's hyperbolic to call this a lore discrepancy due to laziness and slow development.

... Now you're just trolling, you've got to be, if you honestly think "everything that uses the word 'night' is related" will ever actually come to pass.

We already know what Nightmares are, and yeah there technically is a relation between Underworld native Nightmares, Shadow Army Nightmares, and the Nightmare Horde - that relation is that they're the same species.

But just as Purists and White Mantle are both humans, they belong to different environments and different factions. Which is where my analogy came from.

12 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

To each their own, but I didn't mind her delivery in this patch. I think a lot of the other voice actors took a more dramatic approach to their delivery than she did, but I like the variety of her more stoic take on the Commander's emotional state here. I will say that Asura Female hit me right in the feels when we were talking to Almorra, though. Rent was due, haha.

I dunno, I think if the plot is going to be about the Commander breaking down from years of traumatic experiences, the Commander simply cannot be stoic about it any longer.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

10 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

I think it's sorta implied Menzies is gone anyway? Also when the God realms got messed up by kralk stuff like the abyssals and aatxes likely got spread around. There's definitely something mists related going in imo. 

You'd think there'd be more Mists stuff elsewhere, if this was the reasoning.

Not sure I'd agree about "something Mists related going on" - at least with this release. I could see them using a familiar demon (Kanaxai) to introduce players to demon lore in general, for expansion 4 and going forward with demons and Mists.

[mandala.8507]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

You seem to be misunderstanding what I'm referencing. I am not referring to the obvious hallucinations conjured up by the Ravenous Wanderer in the story. I am talking about the generic open world mobs - the two I named, Abyssals and Shadow Beasts, as well as two others that accompany them: Aatxes and Shades.
All four are Nightmares, but they're completely unrelated to each other and The Deep's Nightmare Horde. The first two - Abyssals and Shadow Beasts - are members of the Shadow Army, servants of Menzies which Dragonfall established are cursed to fight focused on Balthazar and those affected by his energy. The second two - Aatxes and Shades -a re natives of the Underworld. The Nightmare Horde, consisting of Oni, Sapping Nightmares, Deep Nightmares, Freezing Nightmares, and Tears of Dwayna, are unrelated to both Menzies and the Underworld - Kanaxai may be related to the Realm of Torment, as in GW1 he name drops the Nightmare Realm, which is another term for the Realm of Torment.

I was never referring to any dragonvoid enemies nor the story mission's enemies. Just the open world enemies.

I didn't misunderstand anything, I'm countering your contention that enemy types from the open world were mindlessly put into this patch due to laziness and lack of development focus by pointing out that, objectively, there was a lot of though put into what enemies existed in every location throughout the patch and why.

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

What? No. The Void outbreak is completely and utterly unrelated to the Shadow Army.

Nightmares are souls twisted by negative emotions into shadowy beastial forms, as established in GW1 and this process is even outright depicted in Hall of Chains via Deathlings. Zafirah gathering the Zaishen was just her fighting an obvious threat to her nation - which is what the Zaishen have always done: protect the innocents.

There is zero relation presented.

Yeah, I think your quickness to pass off her deliberate mention of the Zaishen as filler dialogue when it was included in the penultimate cutscene of EoD as part of the story's climax is an underestimation of this studio's focus on world-building/attention to detail and of the expense of making quality voiced cutscenes. That line isn't there on accident and the Zaishen lore is far more complex than them just being "protectors of the innocent".

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

... Now you're just trolling, you've got to be, if you honestly think "everything that uses the word 'night' is related" will ever actually come to pass.

We already know what Nightmares are, and yeah there technically is a relation between Underworld native Nightmares, Shadow Army Nightmares, and the Nightmare Horde - that relation is that they're the same species.

But just as Purists and White Mantle are both humans, they belong to different environments and different factions. Which is where my analogy came from.

Yeah, no. This is still an absolutely false equivalency.

Good to know I ruined my ability to ever be surprised by a big-picture narrative decision from this studio for the foreseeable future so that I could be a called a troll and told I'm reaching.