Scrapper is busted

[August.5934]

Not this post again. okay fine...; nerf Engi's grenade but BUFF scrapper's hammer skill damage and lower it's CDs..If ya all agree with this give a like, if not... show that confused face cause if ye don't agree then it stays the way it is.

i know what this "nerf scrapper" dudes trying to do. They want scrapper to burried itself 6ft under!.... HELL NO!

[apharma.3741]

7 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Snap target is a trap on engi. 

You end up missing 2/3 or more of your damage against moving targets. Snap target + Grenadier sounds good in theory, but it's better to learn how to lead targets and control your camera. The extra effort rewards you with over double the damage. 

Don't even think of relying on it with mortars. 

For things with travel time over distance I agree, things that are cast onto a target is where the problem lies to me. At close ranges snap to target does work but like you say is a trap further out, for AoE with a travel time.

[apharma.3741]

8 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It's like you biasedly tunnel vision arguments based on the sole principle of: "Trev said it so I have to argue against it."

Scrapper is very clearly generating downstates a lot faster than Spellbreaker due to the "come out of stealth with nuclear AoE CC damage pit gimmick". I've seen mediocre players on Scrapper sneak into the middle of a node and pop kill 3 players at once with this gimmick. New players just don't react fast enough to properly counter play, if they react at all. Since winning ranked games lately is all about who can farm the other team's bads faster, this strangely puts Scrapper in the position if being #1 noob farming mixed queue king right now.

I barely talk about you, only that your "predictions" were very wrong and almost entirely for the wrong reasons.
Meanwhile you completely miss the point of my post, these builds farm the enemy NA noob players in different ways and it's been a long known tactic, go far, never die, have 2-4 people constantly try to kill you while your team picks it's nose on the other nodes.
If you're in games that you can one shot 3 people at mid constently it says more about how bad you are to be in those games not how good you are.

[Vancho.8750]

11 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

 

Just went ahead and did it myself. Point proven, hopefully. Too many people have misconceptions about grenade targeting and the ability to avoid them.

Ok I'm wrong that they never miss if you move side to side, I do not get why I would do that instead of going after the guy hitting me but whatever. Now do one while running after somebody with nades and snap to target. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

it's been a long known tactic, go far, never die, have 2-4 people constantly try to kill you while your team picks it's nose on the other nodes.

Sometimes you can still rope-a-dope that situation, but straight relying on that old school side node tactic doesn't work anymore.

Mobility creep is too high to where more often than not, they no longer stay to mess around with players they can't kill. They just leave, and then the match becomes all about who is generating the most downs to create snowball. Creating that snowball in mixed silver to plat queues is not only the fastest way to generate points but it is also the best way to defend your low tiered players so they don't die.

Organized 5v5 and mixed Ranked queues are truly being played differently nowadays. The builds that are good in 5v5 ATs are not the same builds that are good at generating noob kills in Ranked.

This ^ is why we are seeing the sudden viable use again of things like Reaper, Willbender, Berserker, Scrapper, because in a low skill ceiling environment where the average participants are Gold 1 players with l2p issues, the big spin to win AoE team fighters running full DPS builds clean house in team fights man. 

In other words, if you were a Plat 2+ player who greatly outskilled an opponent who was sitting at Gold 1 rating, and you wanted to find the absolute fastest way to generate a down on that player, would you use a Defense Spellbreaker or would you use a Full DPS Berserker? 

[apharma.3741]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Sometimes you can still rope-a-dope that situation, but straight relying on that old school side node tactic doesn't work anymore.

Mobility creep is too high to where more often than not, they no longer stay to mess around with players they can't kill. They just leave, and then the match becomes all about who is generating the most downs to create snowball. Creating that snowball in mixed silver to plat queues is not only the fastest way to generate points but it is also the best way to defend your low tiered players so they don't die.

Organized 5v5 and mixed Ranked queues are truly being played differently nowadays. The builds that are good in 5v5 ATs are not the same builds that are good at generating noob kills in Ranked.

This ^ is why we are seeing the sudden viable use again of things like Reaper, Willbender, Berserker, Scrapper, because in a low skill ceiling environment where the average participants are Gold 1 players with l2p issues, the big spin to win AoE team fighters running full DPS builds clean house in team fights man. 

In other words, if you were a Plat 2+ player who greatly outskilled an opponent who was sitting at Gold 1 rating, and you wanted to find the absolute fastest way to generate a down on that player, would you use a Defense Spellbreaker or would you use a Full DPS Berserker? 

We shouldn't balance the game around people who can't dodge or deal with spin2win, these kinds of bad players are also the type to tunnel vision on that 1 guy at far, go beast on cool down etc. Mobility isn't an issue, it's the tunnel vision and lack of skill of the people playing that lets you get value out of either blowing them up or wasting their time. The only thing that gets no value is support because you can't out heal stupid.

Nice loaded question at the end btw, ignoring everything I said and going for the "downing players" argument, you should ask, what gives me more consistent wins and it's whichever you're better at playing.
 

Edited March 11, 2023 by apharma.3741

[Kuma.1503]

10 hours ago, August.5934 said:

Not this post again. okay fine...; nerf Engi's grenade but BUFF scrapper's hammer skill damage and lower it's CDs..If ya all agree with this give a like, if not... show that confused face cause if ye don't agree then it stays the way it is.

i know what this "nerf scrapper" dudes trying to do. They want scrapper to burried itself 6ft under!.... HELL NO!

I understand the frustration. Especially with nades. 

Tossing them behind you with superspeed is annoying to fight, but atm that's what we have to do. 

Running nades removes one utility slot for pure offense. Most nade builds end up being weak to CC, condis, or both, so squaring up like a Warrior isn't an option. If people want Engi to stop kiting with nades tossed over the shoulder, we need to bring up Engi's durability, cleanse, and/or stability access so that they can fight the other melee classes without being memed. 

Scrapper specifically needs stability access on par with (Hammer)Cata/SpB before it starts trying to fight like a Cata/SpB. 

Hitting Stealth is the healthier option Imo. It's something that's consistently unhealthy when paired with high burst damage, and hiding important telegraphs in stealth. Anet should make it reveal on cast, and tweak each build affected accordingly. 

Another thing that would help is bringing Engi's natural predator back into the meta. Condi Necro laughs at Scrapper. If we try to cover our lack of stunbreaks with stab, they corrupt to fear. If we try to kite at 900 range, they continue spamming condis on us with Scepter/Staff. If we give ourselves might/fury, they corrupt it to weakness/blind. They abuse our lack of cleanse, specifically burst cleanse which the even buffed tools builds lack. 

As a bonus, they'll help keep Catalyst in check as well. Especially with their boon corrupts. This meta is too power heavy in general. Tankier condi builds are good to have around despite the community's hatred of them. Especially when bullying noobies is a hot topic. These are exactly the kinds of builds that a new player would be able to survive on while still contributing something to the team. We demonize condi tanks for being too easy/noobie friendly while complaining when they're gone that the noobies are being farmed. 

It's very strange. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Kuma.1503]

Accidental double post

Edited March 11, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[bethekey.8314]

8 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Ok I'm wrong that they never miss if you move side to side, I do not get why I would do that instead of going after the guy hitting me but whatever. Now do one while running after somebody with nades and snap to target. 

Most classes have ranged options that you can use while strafing side to side.

In melee range, nade targeting options don't matter, you aim at your feet. Nades also become more comparable to typically AoE melee options then.

If you're chasing a nade scrapper with superspeed, without superspeed/ports/movement skills, and expecting to not get kited, then that's your fault.

Now that I've shown you Snap to Target isn't all it's chalked up to be, I'd encourage you to test its limitations more yourself. Believe it or not, I don't want to have to constantly test assumptions for ignorant people.

[Dr Meta.3158]

Just did an AT with doze and zyn on the stealth bomber scrapper giving the whole team superspeed while constantly zerging the whole match. Was far easier to deal with than double/triple catalyst and was a pretty close game.

Pretty skillless build yeah, but at least its not dummy oppressive.

 

Edit: Next game. 1 catalyst post nerf was harder to take down alone than two scrappers together.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Dr Meta.3158

[shion.2084]

24 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Just did an AT with doze and zyn on the stealth bomber scrapper giving the whole team superspeed while constantly zeroing the whole match. Was far easier to deal with than double/triple catalyst and was a pretty close game.

Pretty skillless build yeah, but at least its not dummy oppressive.

The stealth scrapper works considerably better for ganking  with two coordinated ones working together.  The shredder gyros iverlap, you can offset the blast gyros ( unblockables) and you can stagger thunderclap to catch those who can actually stun break and dodge

Edited March 11, 2023 by shion.2084

[Dr Meta.3158]

3 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

The stealth scrapper works considerably better for ganking  with two coordinated ones working together

They're weren't really stealth ganking often as much as they were moving in a trio with a vindicator (koto) utilizing the CC and superspeed of the scrappers and the burst of all three of them. Realistically if they'd replace the vindicator with a FA catalyst or weaver, that game wouldn't have been close. It would have be a horrid stomp. Pair a tempest for auras and a daredevil for node control and replace one if the scrappers with another catalyst and it honestly would be pretty gross.

[ZolracAtrox.2908]

As a Main PvP Scrapper (dunno PvE/WvW 'cause I play Guard in pve and Weaver on WvW) can confirm that Nades Scrapper should go; I mean, is not even nearly as  pre-nerf Cata brokeness. It's not the current most OP class neither. But an almost one shot + stealth build is toxic. That's why One Shot Chrono and One shot Deadeye should stay dead forever.

I can kill a nade user with my own build; but one build shouldn't be a Cata-like class to be nerfed

Scrapper need buffs on Hammer like cd reductions and increased damage. Buffs on core skills like turrets or kits like elixir gun.

But nades toolbelt skill damage and 360° attacks should be nerf.

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by ZolracAtrox.2908

[miriforst.1290]

Remember to bring projectile hate. 

[shion.2084]

3 hours ago, ZolracAtrox.2908 said:

As a Main PvP Scrapper (dunno PvE/WvW 'cause I play Guard in pve and Weaver on WvW) can confirm that Nades Scrapper should go; I mean, is not even nearly as  pre-nerf Cata brokeness. It's not the current most OP class neither. But an almost one shot + stealth build is toxic. That's why One Shot Chrono and One shot Deadeye should stay dead forever.

I can kill a nade user with my own build; but one build shouldn't be a Cata-like class to be nerfed

Scrapper need buffs on Hammer like cd reductions and increased damage. Buffs on core skills like turrets or kits like elixir gun.

But nades toolbelt skill damage and 360° attacks should be nerf.

 

 

 

Nades can be easily replaced by toolkit for the one shot stealth build

 

[quaniesan.8497]

I just don't have faith in anet's balancing team anymore.  Everytime birth a toxic build that either spam one skill to win, build that simply unkillable just for trolling purposes, or build that kill you within 1/4 second.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

nerf core engi

[ZolracAtrox.2908]

55 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

Nades can be easily replaced by toolkit for the one shot stealth build

 

at least toolkit's skill that deals lots of dmg is very melee; a build focused on that gonna be almost more troll than useful; nades are ranged and are 360° throwable while superspeed.

 

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

4 hours ago, quaniesan.8497 said:

I just don't have faith in anet's balancing team anymore.  Everytime birth a toxic build that either spam one skill to win, build that simply unkillable just for trolling purposes, or build that kill you within 1/4 second.

devs want nades broken for some reason
how many skills can you name that got as much attention as the nades?
if they end up usable but not too strong, they swoop in and buff them

[August.5934]

@Kuma.1503 There is a very simple solution to make scrapper better in PVP. I already starting to see many scrappers with grenades build in ranked PVP. just my last match i had 2 grenades scrapper with me. (I don't play with grenades cause i don't like them but i do play with Hammer scrapper and support my team.)

• So the solution is to lower the Hammer skills CD and increase it's damage in both PVP & PVE.
• Making Bulwark Gyro a stun-break skills and making it grant abit more barrier.
• And the most important of all. Making Function Gyro to be more functional then just slowly reviving downed teammates. My idea is that Anet should make function gyro like a pet, On passive state, it should cleanse 1condi every 5sec dealing small damage around us, like electrocuting the enemy every 1sec dealing 500dmg (PVE) & 300dmg(PVP). While activated, it turns big into helicopter and drops one big bomb on enemy and drops a healing med on team reviving them. 

[Vancho.8750]

15 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Most classes have ranged options that you can use while strafing side to side.

In melee range, nade targeting options don't matter, you aim at your feet. Nades also become more comparable to typically AoE melee options then.

If you're chasing a nade scrapper with superspeed, without superspeed/ports/movement skills, and expecting to not get kited, then that's your fault.

Now that I've shown you Snap to Target isn't all it's chalked up to be, I'd encourage you to test its limitations more yourself. Believe it or not, I don't want to have to constantly test assumptions for ignorant people.

Twisting words and declaring your point correct all the time doesn't mean is true, also you don't want to make the video since you know I'm correct Maybe if you try hard engi main its better to have it off or bind it to have it when need be, but sure as kitten a tick box is raising the "skill" level of most bandwagoners. Even in your video you get hit several times over because of snap to target, that wouldn't happen if someone just picked it up. Do you really want engi to be known as the noob profession, since It did have multiple automated builds ?  

Also I'm might be kittening with you cause you argue semantics and I sometimes enjoy going into the rabbit hole, nothing personal.

[Kuma.1503]

8 hours ago, August.5934 said:

@Kuma.1503 There is a very simple solution to make scrapper better in PVP. I already starting to see many scrappers with grenades build in ranked PVP. just my last match i had 2 grenades scrapper with me. (I don't play with grenades cause i don't like them but i do play with Hammer scrapper and support my team.)

• So the solution is to lower the Hammer skills CD and increase it's damage in both PVP & PVE.
• Making Bulwark Gyro a stun-break skills and making it grant abit more barrier.
• And the most important of all. Making Function Gyro to be more functional then just slowly reviving downed teammates. My idea is that Anet should make function gyro like a pet, On passive state, it should cleanse 1condi every 5sec dealing small damage around us, like electrocuting the enemy every 1sec dealing 500dmg (PVE) & 300dmg(PVP). While activated, it turns big into helicopter and drops one big bomb on enemy and drops a healing med on team reviving them. 

Sounds like what you're encouraging is a stickier playstyle. Less hit and run, more staying on your target to bonk them with your hammer and zap them with your gyro. That would allow Scrapper to play more like a bruiser.

I love theorizing reworks like these. Unfortunately, they never leave the realm of theory, best we can hope for is a simple change that nerfs the actual problem while leaving the rest of the kit alone. 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[bethekey.8314]

8 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Twisting words and declaring your point correct all the time doesn't mean is true

8 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

you don't want to make the video since you know I'm correct

Can't argue with that logic.

[Crab Fear.8623]

6 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Can't argue with that logic.

It is pretty sound, tbf.

[Myst.5783]

What I've noticed, is engies with too much sustain able to outrun my teef.

 

Engies shouldn't be outrunning daredevils.