Do something about pulls

[Chaba.5410]

32 minutes ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

U dont understand the problem. 

If u get pulled into blob, its over, u dont have time to press anything, u insta downed, then before u can click down state skill... u dead. 

its very silly mechanics, there is no workaround for it asides having someone nearby to provide 100% stabby uptime. 

inb4: "Stop playing glass cannons", boon balls spin such dps circles and cleave that there is no build that can sustain u. 

If it is such instant death, then explain to me why I've been pulled before while playing on a necro with zerker stats and survived? Explain why there is no workaround yet I was able to get back to my zerg.

The thing you don't seem to understand is what you describe isn't a guaranteed outcome. It requires a blob to be coordinated. That doesn't always occur. Being next to someone giving stab all the time also requires coordination that doesn't always occur either. Stab could get reapplied and restripped fast in zergs and you end up dead too. The difference? You. Your positioning. Your reaction time. Your predictive capability. Your own skill usage. And the attention paid to enemy skill cooldowns.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[captrowdy.9561]

Lol pulls are fine. The wall bow spammers need a counter. Nothing like walking up to a wall and using reaper gs5 and sweeping down some lame rangers. 

[Quirin.1076]

Pulls should work inside the tower or keep.  This way you can pull people into the keep or tower to burn down one by one.

[TheGrimm.5624]

14 minutes ago, Quirin.1076 said:

Pulls should work inside the tower or keep.  This way you can pull people into the keep or tower to burn down one by one.

To clarify, you are referring to up walls? Not thru them correct?

[MedievalThings.5417]

24 minutes ago, Quirin.1076 said:

Pulls should work inside the tower or keep.  This way you can pull people into the keep or tower to burn down one by one.

Imagine gravity well, just outside the walls, followed by a pull yanking a player over the wall inside.  Oh please yes, Anet, make this happen.

[blp.3489]

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

The difference? You. Your positioning. Your reaction time. Your predictive capability. Your own skill usage. And the attention paid to enemy skill cooldowns.

I think this is where perceptions differ.  For many of those of us that are relatively new to WvW the idea of keeping track of enemy skill cooldowns for an enemy blob is just too far out of our skillset to imagine let alone do.  I won't claim to speak for all noobies but I'm sure that I'm not the only one who can't pick out and react to all the skill tells on all the classes for even a single enemy player let alone a ten person group let alone a 50 person blob.

For me personally having someone who has played the game since pre-release say "you tell me how I x and y and z" is a counter-intuitive response to someone who says that they aren't able to x or y or z.   Positioning, reaction time, predictive capability, and so on are pretty abstract and as far as I have experienced are only learned by long term repetitive experience but if you can describe them in a way that people can put them into practice, even if only for the circumstance of getting pulled into an enemy blob, that would be great.

From my own experience I think part of the problem is that open world requires so much less skill than pvp so players that are "good enough" to handle almost anything in open world arrive in WvW and perceive that things that happen to them there are OP, hence all the calls for nerfs.  In open world enemies generally have one or maybe a couple of attacks and the few that do CC only have one CC move which generally isn't hard to predict.  In WvW enemies have a dozen skills that they use in much less predictable ways, and the variety of enemies, i.e. classes and builds, that you might encounter is relatively large and, unlike open world where several enemies are most likely several copies of the exact same thing, you will encounter groups of enemies that are all unique and among them have dozens and dozens of skills.  Not to mention that most open world enemies operate at a plodding pace of an attack every few seconds versus players using multiple skills per second multiplied by the number of players.

Please note that I am not calling for WvW to be somehow nerfed down to open world levels of difficulty, just trying to explain some of the differences in perception.

In the way of my usual pie in the sky suggestions, it would be cool if they had some hero-point-like places in open world where players could try out a very simplified version of PvP, say one player "transforms" into a mode similar to hero point NPCs, and another player can then challenge them.  If the NPC capabilities were limited to an appropriate level then, with some skill, the challenger player should be able to prevail.  I'm guessing that there are players that would be willing to play the NPC part, especially if there were an appropriate reward.

[blp.3489]

29 minutes ago, Quirin.1076 said:

Pulls should work inside the tower or keep.  This way you can pull people into the keep or tower to burn down one by one.

If there are attacker skills that can pull people up and over walls, as there are, shouldn't those skills work the same way for defenders?  Do they?

[Quirin.1076]

23 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

To clarify, you are referring to up walls? Not thru them correct?

Yeah, up walls yes, I mean could you imagine a thief on the wall using Scorpion Wire or Mesmer using vortex to pull people into the zerg inside the keep.

[blp.3489]

If there are several classes that can give a boon basically permanently to a group, why aren't there more skills that give it permanently, or at least long duration, just to oneself for more of the classes?  Say a signet of stability with the passive effect of perma-stability?  Perhaps a relic of stability?  Even as an elite skill.  Even if you need to invest in concentration in order to make it continuous?

Note that what I'm asking about here is the disparity between the boom uptime that some classes can provide to whole groups versus the miserly 1 or 2 seconds of the boon that many other classes are limited to.  As a low skill player I am often mystified by skills that give 1 second of some boon.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

if it weren't for pulls some groups wouldn't get any kills tho

[TheGrimm.5624]

9 minutes ago, Quirin.1076 said:

Yeah, up walls yes, I mean could you imagine a thief on the wall using Scorpion Wire or Mesmer using vortex to pull people into the zerg inside the keep.

I could see some merit to up walls and could see some interesting counterplay to it. Could be something to look into. It's already risky for someone on the wall, why not add some risk to those waiting at the base of the wall.

[TheGrimm.5624]

12 minutes ago, Quirin.1076 said:

Yeah, up walls yes, I mean could you imagine a thief on the wall using Scorpion Wire or Mesmer using vortex to pull people into the zerg inside the keep.

Could also see some interest in Bali skill getting added that has a pull on it too. That would give both sides and all classes access to a neutral pull and again add more depth to siege use for both attacking and defending.

[Chaba.5410]

14 minutes ago, blp.3489 said:

I think this is where perceptions differ.  For many of those of us that are relatively new to WvW the idea of keeping track of enemy skill cooldowns for an enemy blob is just too far out of our skillset to imagine let alone do.  I won't claim to speak for all noobies but I'm sure that I'm not the only one who can't pick out and react to all the skill tells on all the classes for even a single enemy player let alone a ten person group let alone a 50 person blob.

For me personally having someone who has played the game since pre-release say "you tell me how I x and y and z" is a counter-intuitive response to someone who says that they aren't able to x or y or z.   Positioning, reaction time, predictive capability, and so on are pretty abstract and as far as I have experienced are only learned by long term repetitive experience but if you can describe them in a way that people can put them into practice, even if only for the circumstance of getting pulled into an enemy blob, that would be great.

From my own experience I think part of the problem is that open world requires so much less skill than pvp so players that are "good enough" to handle almost anything in open world arrive in WvW and perceive that things that happen to them there are OP, hence all the calls for nerfs.  In open world enemies generally have one or maybe a couple of attacks and the few that do CC only have one CC move which generally isn't hard to predict.  In WvW enemies have a dozen skills that they use in much less predictable ways, and the variety of enemies, i.e. classes and builds, that you might encounter is relatively large and, unlike open world where several enemies are most likely several copies of the exact same thing, you will encounter groups of enemies that are all unique and among them have dozens and dozens of skills.  Not to mention that most open world enemies operate at a plodding pace of an attack every few seconds versus players using multiple skills per second multiplied by the number of players.

Please note that I am not calling for WvW to be somehow nerfed down to open world levels of difficulty, just trying to explain some of the differences in perception.

In the way of my usual pie in the sky suggestions, it would be cool if they had some hero-point-like places in open world where players could try out a very simplified version of PvP, say one player "transforms" into a mode similar to hero point NPCs, and another player can then challenge them.  If the NPC capabilities were limited to an appropriate level then, with some skill, the challenger player should be able to prevail.  I'm guessing that there are players that would be willing to play the NPC part, especially if there were an appropriate reward.

All of this is normal.  Many of us were beginners too at one point.

For both beginners and experienced players there are two different attitudes that can be adopted:  the learner/growth mindset or the fixed mindset.
- A growth mindset would say, "Wow, I got pulled so fast and died.  What can I do next time to avoid that outcome?"
- The fixed mindset goes, "Wow, I got pulled so fast and died. I had no chance! The problem is the pull and it must be fixed."

There's no objective analysis being done.  If an entire blob is single-targeting you, yea you're going to die in most cases (I'm sure some players have troll yolo builds to distract zergs and truly get away).  If you get pulled into a blob and they are uncoordinated, the outcome isn't so certain dependent upon your own experience, build, and skill level.  None of this says very much about pulls themselves.

As for another thing you wrote, knowledgeable players have tried to teach new players a lot of these concepts in order to shortcut the longer route through experience.  If the player is stuck with a fixed mindset, it's extremely difficult to break through.  The information is out there.  Learners will seek that information out.

For example:

 

[blp.3489]

I think it would be brilliant in several ways, both attackers and defenders would need to think about stability to a greater extent and there would be some incentive to place siege weapons out of range of pulls instead of against the wall.  In some cases a small group of defenders could repeatedly pull the players using the siege weapons, forcing attackers to maintain stability versus watching netflix while waiting for a wall to fall.

[Cuks.8241]

2 hours ago, blp.3489 said:

I think this is where perceptions differ.  For many of those of us that are relatively new to WvW the idea of keeping track of enemy skill cooldowns for an enemy blob is just too far out of our skillset to imagine let alone do.  I won't claim to speak for all noobies but I'm sure that I'm not the only one who can't pick out and react to all the skill tells on all the classes for even a single enemy player let alone a ten person group let alone a 50 person blob.

I don't think there is a group out there that really tracks many of the enemy CDs (talking squad vs squad, not small scale). We might track a few crucial enemy CDs like WoD, well calls... but not that many. And to actually achieve that you need a few skirmishes with the enemy group to know what they are packing.

The only real, reliable, squad wise counter to CD we have is constant stability. We distinguish between two stability calls. We have "single stability" where we just keep 1 stack of stability up on the whole squad. This is just for general moving around so no one gets pulled or generally cced by a random roamer or if we get jumped. And "full stability" or just "stability" when we maximise stability stacks for engages. 

Whats most important here is your positioning. In general you want to stack in the 180 range for all the boons. Which basically means standing on top of each other. If you trail your firebrand for more than 180 range you will not be getting all your boons. You also don't want to go in front of your commander/firebrand when in range of enemy (actually ever). They also act as a tank in full minstrel while you as potential dps are probably squishy. Let them intercept some of the stuff coming at you. Basically you want to be as close as possible to your FB but never in between him and the enemies. This is the basic and most important. So many players trail behind and once engagement happen they overextend. And they die either because they get cced while trailing or because they overextend and eat enemy bombs.

Also proper positioning will save your dodges. Dodges are scarce tools that should be used in unison either for engages or disengages or repositioning. If you need your dodge to keep up with the rest you're doing something wrong.

Now this is all relevant in organised squads on voice chat. In a random squad this is usually just fantasy but you can still try to keep these basic positional principles around supports. Most people are usually out of position so if you just spot your support and position properly you will most likely be the one getting boons even if parties are not set up properly. Most classes also have some abilities that will save your no matter what. For example you can take teleport (ele) or blink (mes) for quick reposition back to your squad. Elixir S on engie, Dolyak stance... Unless you're fully confident in your and your squad's ability think about taking one of those. 

Also often the best path to safety when facing enemy squad charging at you is dodging straight through them. Running away from them is almost always death sentence as they are probably also packing super speed so good luck unless you have hyper mobility. Most squads dont turn fast and especially not for a single enemy if there is a group ahead.

[MedievalThings.5417]

3 hours ago, blp.3489 said:

If there are attacker skills that can pull people up and over walls, as there are, shouldn't those skills work the same way for defenders?  Do they?

I've been pulled physically through walls (and not the gate portals) that were intact more times then I can count.  Not even up the stairs and over, which has also happened, but just straight through the wall magically ending up outside.

[joneirikb.7506]

5 hours ago, blp.3489 said:

I think this is where perceptions differ.  For many of those of us that are relatively new to WvW the idea of keeping track of enemy skill cooldowns for an enemy blob is just too far out of our skillset to imagine let alone do.  I won't claim to speak for all noobies but I'm sure that I'm not the only one who can't pick out and react to all the skill tells on all the classes for even a single enemy player let alone a ten person group let alone a 50 person blob.

For me personally having someone who has played the game since pre-release say "you tell me how I x and y and z" is a counter-intuitive response to someone who says that they aren't able to x or y or z.   Positioning, reaction time, predictive capability, and so on are pretty abstract and as far as I have experienced are only learned by long term repetitive experience but if you can describe them in a way that people can put them into practice, even if only for the circumstance of getting pulled into an enemy blob, that would be great.

From my own experience I think part of the problem is that open world requires so much less skill than pvp so players that are "good enough" to handle almost anything in open world arrive in WvW and perceive that things that happen to them there are OP, hence all the calls for nerfs.  In open world enemies generally have one or maybe a couple of attacks and the few that do CC only have one CC move which generally isn't hard to predict.  In WvW enemies have a dozen skills that they use in much less predictable ways, and the variety of enemies, i.e. classes and builds, that you might encounter is relatively large and, unlike open world where several enemies are most likely several copies of the exact same thing, you will encounter groups of enemies that are all unique and among them have dozens and dozens of skills.  Not to mention that most open world enemies operate at a plodding pace of an attack every few seconds versus players using multiple skills per second multiplied by the number of players.

Please note that I am not calling for WvW to be somehow nerfed down to open world levels of difficulty, just trying to explain some of the differences in perception.

In the way of my usual pie in the sky suggestions, it would be cool if they had some hero-point-like places in open world where players could try out a very simplified version of PvP, say one player "transforms" into a mode similar to hero point NPCs, and another player can then challenge them.  If the NPC capabilities were limited to an appropriate level then, with some skill, the challenger player should be able to prevail.  I'm guessing that there are players that would be willing to play the NPC part, especially if there were an appropriate reward.

Aaahh.... now you made me all nostalgic to launch version of Orr... where most of the mobs had CC and condi, and could grab a player, pull them in and ping pong them between 15 other triggering/aggroing mobs, and chain pull you half across the map, leaving you alone, isolated and soon dead.

It was glorious.

I barely had a chance to experience before the wild PVE hordes cried bloody murder kitten and whine on every relevant social media (ok, and the forum as well...), and it got nerfed into oblivion into the current "hello kitty land" that the rest of OW Tyria already was.

So yes, PVE *could* have taught players things like this, and for one very brief moment even did in this specific example. But PVE has always been dumbed down to the lowest skilled, so as to not alienate anyone.

I've kept dreaming that they un-nerfed Orr again. And also used the sPvP test-dummy class npc's as enemies in OW, in roaming groups of 2-5. That actually uses simplified but functional pvp builds. Fighting against those would actually teach players some basics for pvp combat.

/rant

---

Now to add something to the actual topic as well... *whistles*

I'm all in favour of letting people pull others into the tower/keep. I'll send 2 gold to whoever can pull someone up over the wall, and then frag them in the air with a ballista!

Edited July 31, 2023 by joneirikb.7506
Spelling and typos, tonight we whine online!

[Burial.1958]

On 7/13/2023 at 9:43 AM, Burnfall.9573 said:

Did any forget about Thief Profession- Scorpion wire? its range is 1200 which is Absurdly Ludicrous. What made Anet think of equipping a non-long range role Profession with a long range capability?

This is what I mean about Profession Identity Theft and Role Hijack...

-Professions roles with their capabilities are being given to other Professions...whose roles are completely different than theirs including their capabilities.

How can a d/d Profession can have long range skills, mechanics...capabilities like a Long Range Profession?

example; another worse example of this is Guardian Profession-Willbender

A Complete Bad Design Mess

The range of this Profession having long leaps...completely decimates Guardian Profession role as a support and a healer.

It is as if, Guardian Profession suddenly transform into a  loose wild animal,  'high on medications'

It is not even funny really, it is sad that Professions are behaving like wild animals.

Seriously, there should be a Warning Sign on top of those Professions with the words, 'Beware I Have A Animal Inside Of Me'

-refocusing back to pulls--Just Remove It Completely from all of the Professions

Really....you are whining about everything. Now it is even scorpion wire which is considered of beeing one of the worst/buggiest Pulls in the game. xDDD Mate maybe this game isn't for you when you whine 24h per day about everything.

[babana.7521]

13 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

All of this is normal.  Many of us were beginners too at one point.

For both beginners and experienced players there are two different attitudes that can be adopted:  the learner/growth mindset or the fixed mindset.
- A growth mindset would say, "Wow, I got pulled so fast and died.  What can I do next time to avoid that outcome?"
- The fixed mindset goes, "Wow, I got pulled so fast and died. I had no chance! The problem is the pull and it must be fixed."

There's no objective analysis being done.  If an entire blob is single-targeting you, yea you're going to die in most cases (I'm sure some players have troll yolo builds to distract zergs and truly get away).  If you get pulled into a blob and they are uncoordinated, the outcome isn't so certain dependent upon your own experience, build, and skill level.  None of this says very much about pulls themselves.

As for another thing you wrote, knowledgeable players have tried to teach new players a lot of these concepts in order to shortcut the longer route through experience.  If the player is stuck with a fixed mindset, it's extremely difficult to break through.  The information is out there.  Learners will seek that information out.

For example:

 

Please remove no armor from wvw it is OP!!! look how they can survive so well without armor!! remove no armor from WvW!! 

[Chaba.5410]

32 minutes ago, babana.7521 said:

Please remove no armor from wvw it is OP!!! look how they can survive so well without armor!! remove no armor from WvW!! 

Lol. Why not "delete guardian"?

[babana.7521]

5 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Lol. Why not "delete guardian"?

You are correct! guardian is op! they survived without armor!! so OP. Remove please.

 

[Dawdler.8521]

14 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

I could see some merit to up walls and could see some interesting counterplay to it. Could be something to look into. It's already risky for someone on the wall, why not add some risk to those waiting at the base of the wall.

So you are standing on the wall of a keep and toss your 3 man pull into the enemy zerg below. 

You pulled a thief that instantly break CC and is now permastealthed inside the keep. 

You pulled a mesmer that go invouln, open a portal and jump out.

You pulled a necro that tanks into shroud and just jump out.

What was your plan again?

[ArchonWing.9480]

17 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

So you are standing on the wall of a keep and toss your 3 man pull into the enemy zerg below. 

You pulled a thief that instantly break CC and is now permastealthed inside the keep. 

You pulled a mesmer that go invouln, open a portal and jump out.

You pulled a necro that tanks into shroud and just jump out.

What was your plan again?

Wait but I thought pulling someone in was instant death, like the thread was teaching us.

  

15 hours ago, blp.3489 said:

Positioning, reaction time, predictive capability, and so on are pretty abstract and as far as I have experienced are only learned by long term repetitive experience but if you can describe them in a way that people can put them into practice, even if only for the circumstance of getting pulled into an enemy blob, that would be great.

Well the simplest method would just be to keep moving so you don't stand too far in front or get left behind. Remember, it doesn't matter if you run fast as long as you run faster than the person behind you. (and I suppose slower than the people ahead  of you).

At the very least, if all fails, you will see the people out of position die. Then you just use them as a reference to where not to go. It's not foolproof and you might die with them, but that's just the game mode. You'll die a lot no matter what.

In general it is not a good idea to be far away from your group because then you become the only target. A lot of the people that complain about "focused" is usually that and that often applies to a lot of YOLO commanders.

With that in mind, you don't really need reaction time. A lot of the time if we're not actively engaged in fighting I'm alt-tabbed out (possibly typing in this very thread) and there's plenty of time to react.

 

 

15 hours ago, blp.3489 said:

From my own experience I think part of the problem is that open world requires so much less skill than pvp so players that are "good enough" to handle almost anything in open world arrive in WvW and perceive that things that happen to them there are OP, hence all the calls for nerfs.  In open world enemies generally have one or maybe a couple of attacks and the few that do CC only have one CC move which generally isn't hard to predict. 

Actually I am pretty sure many people here would get crushed in HoT (especially tangled depths)  if they did it the one it was meant to be on release (no mounts!) I recommend people just try it every now and then. The worse that could happen is they may become better players.

I think a lot of it just comes down to knowing how your character works and choice of game mode is not the only deciding factor. Obviously in WvW you also sort of have to know how other people's characters work too but for general play most people don't really need to reach that point.

Though I do have to agree that when you're a fish outside of your natural habitat, to respect the environment a bit more. There have been quite a few PvPers that step into WvW and think they're hot stuff but get super salty when  things don't go their way when people play by different rules.

Edited August 1, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Jitters.9401]

I am tired of seeing all the exploit pulls. 

Like people jumping off cliffs then activating pulls while they glide. 

And pulls that grab somehow go over 1200 range, pulling people up stairs and over walls. 

[Triptaminas.4789]

20 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

If it is such instant death, then explain to me why I've been pulled before while playing on a necro with zerker stats and survived? Explain why there is no workaround yet I was able to get back to my zerg.

The thing you don't seem to understand is what you describe isn't a guaranteed outcome. It requires a blob to be coordinated. That doesn't always occur. Being next to someone giving stab all the time also requires coordination that doesn't always occur either. Stab could get reapplied and restripped fast in zergs and you end up dead too. The difference? You. Your positioning. Your reaction time. Your predictive capability. Your own skill usage. And the attention paid to enemy skill cooldowns.

>You not always die, sometimes u die fast tho

>Sometimes u aint even pulled hence pulls aint a problem

 

Nice argument mate i bet you one of them guys that pull people from 2000 range into a blob thru walls, people he dont even see. "Position for that pleb's" Em i right pull sisters? These people just need to git gud and sniff all the time to make sure there is no dots in 2000 range