Is Elementalist really the weakest class out there?

[noneHotBuildTest.7251]

Elementalists have it rough. They've got low health, flimsy armor, and can't even switch weapons.
When you factor in the complexity of their gameplay, their survival skills (or lack thereof), their role in teams, and their limited build options, it's a tough gig. 
I mean, I was looking at this class after the balance patch, and it seems like they didn't change much. 
There are a few Quality of Life tweaks, but the whole picture still seems kinda unfinished.

What's the deal with Tempest in Guild Wars 2? 
There's no decent DPS or boon DPS build for it. And don't even get me started on Heal Tempest; it's playing second fiddle to Heal Scrapper or Heal Mechanist. 
It's like Tempest is at the bottom of the priority list.
Speaking of buffs, Overload Air used to be something to reckon with, but now it's just a shadow of its former self. 
Lightning Flash? It's got a 35-second cooldown, not even a stun break, and a measly 900 range. Seriously, are we in 2023 or 2012?
The traits aren't playing nice either. Alacrity traits are in a brawl with the healing ones. And what's the deal with turning Water Trident into a total dud of a skill? 
It's like Anet just squashed the one way Warhorn Tempest could do some ranged healing.
I mean, they had three whole months to cook up this balance patch, and this is what they served? 
Scrapper gets buffs, and it's already outshining Firebrand in most encounters. But Tempest, poor Tempest, is left hanging. 
It's like Anet's playing hide-and-seek with it.

And Weaver is a big no no! 
They're asking for some healing power and vitality because, let's face it, those base barriers are paper-thin. 
But wait, they also want power and condition for vitality? It's like a mixed bag of tricks.
The barriers, they're a total joke. Those minor traits hardly give you any barrier, and landing those dual attacks is like threading a needle. 
Seriously, it's not a walk in the park (especially when you look at Holosmith's barrier). 
Plus, we're missing all those fancy barrier Mechanics that the Scrappers have. What's the deal with that, you ask? Well, I'm as lost as you are.

Let's shift gears to Catalyst. It feels like a bit of a miss. 
They say it's supposed to be this 'steadfast presence on the battlefield' 
But then they make Scrappers as 'steadfast presence with the battlefield' 

Heck, even my condi Tempest had some pretty decent defense and sustainability. 
In comparison, those Hammer 3 balls on the Catalyst felt too limiting for me, and the slow channeled Hammer 2s? 
Yeah, they were just plain clunky. Even when I had Celestial gear on, I couldn't find a good reason to switch from Celestial Scrapper to Celestial Catalyst,
Because the Scrapper's Hammer felt way more responsive for a frontline melee weapon.

I saw some clips where they were talking about the stationary golem DPS benchmark for the Catalyst being pretty high. 
But you know what? It's a whole different story in PvP, WvW, open world, and other game modes where everything's moving around like crazy. 
So, is that it? Is the Catalyst just a full-on DPS spec with a litte of Quickness on a ideally golem? 
If that's the case, it's pretty underwhelming.

Now, When you put Elementalists and Engineers side by side, you can't help but see the huge difference. 
It's like saying 'If there is Yu, why is there Liang?'

Engineers possess a repertoire of versatile utility skills, boon removal, invaluable and swift group stability, along with continuous group superspeed. 
The Mechanist specialization is a clear testament – Engineers take the lead right from the start.

Honestly, I don't think ArenaNet could even point to a spot in Guild Wars 2 where Elementalists shine the brightest. 
As someone who's been Team Elementalist, it's starting to feel like we're playing the game on hard mode just for the fun of it. 

It's time for change. Either Engineers get a power cut, or they buff Elementalists. 
Balancing is key, but turning GW2 into "Mecha Pet Simulator" is no solution.

Edited November 29, 2023 by noneHotBuildTest.7251

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Eles problem was never really what it can or can't do.

Its the question of "Why play ele instead of build XY which can do the same just easier?". 

When ele did top tier dps. Why not just play a build that does maybe 2k less dps but it's much easier and safer. 

Even in Openworld. 

I can go monkey mode on my hammer Spellbreaker and never die. On full Zerker gear. 

How often do you see a Hammer Catalyst in downstate next to you? To often I say. 

Again, ele is not a bad class. It never was In a (as bad) spot the forum will make you believe. 

It's simply the fact at there is always something that does the same but easier. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by DanAlcedo.3281

[CETheLucid.3964]

Yeah, sure.

[soulknight.9620]

1 hour ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I can go monkey mode on my hammer Spellbreaker and never die. On full Zerker gear. 

Lets add to this list: zerk reaper, condi scourge, condi virtuoso, condi fb, power/condi mech, power herald etc.

 

@OP if anet wanted to fix ele they would have already fixed it. I believe its a "it works fine in pvp, so dont touch it ever again for anything" kind of attitude. That pistol insult that we got with weapon beta just shows. ANOTHER condi weapon which is built specifically for pvp/wvw. 

People here on the forums have had many good suggestions on how to "fix" or at least make life easier for eles withouth powercreeping it. And yet all we get is "fixed an arc blah blah blah". 3 months of balancing for real. 

[solemn.9670]

Ele is perpetually stuck as a class that is 1) unplayable and weak & 2) overpowered unkillable class

Just depends on who you ask and how good the ele in question is

[miriforst.1290]

You are missing the real fun over in the engineer forum!

[Sahne.6950]

6 hours ago, noneHotBuildTest.7251 said:

Elementalists have it rough. They've got low health, flimsy armor, and can't even switch weapons.
When you factor in the complexity of their gameplay, their survival skills (or lack thereof), their role in teams, and their limited build options, it's a tough gig. 
I mean, I was looking at this class after the balance patch, and it seems like they didn't change much. 
There are a few Quality of Life tweaks, but the whole picture still seems kinda unfinished.

What's the deal with Tempest in Guild Wars 2? 
There's no decent DPS or boon DPS build for it. And don't even get me started on Heal Tempest; it's playing second fiddle to Heal Scrapper or Heal Mechanist. 
It's like Tempest is at the bottom of the priority list.
Speaking of buffs, Overload Air used to be something to reckon with, but now it's just a shadow of its former self. 
Lightning Flash? It's got a 35-second cooldown, not even a stun break, and a measly 900 range. Seriously, are we in 2023 or 2012?
The traits aren't playing nice either. Alacrity traits are in a brawl with the healing ones. And what's the deal with turning Water Trident into a total dud of a skill? 
It's like Anet just squashed the one way Warhorn Tempest could do some ranged healing.
I mean, they had three whole months to cook up this balance patch, and this is what they served? 
Scrapper gets buffs, and it's already outshining Firebrand in most encounters. But Tempest, poor Tempest, is left hanging. 
It's like Anet's playing hide-and-seek with it.

And Weaver is a big no no! 
They're asking for some healing power and vitality because, let's face it, those base barriers are paper-thin. 
But wait, they also want power and condition for vitality? It's like a mixed bag of tricks.
The barriers, they're a total joke. Those minor traits hardly give you any barrier, and landing those dual attacks is like threading a needle. 
Seriously, it's not a walk in the park (especially when you look at Holosmith's barrier). 
Plus, we're missing all those fancy barrier Mechanics that the Scrappers have. What's the deal with that, you ask? Well, I'm as lost as you are.

Let's shift gears to Catalyst. It feels like a bit of a miss. 
They say it's supposed to be this 'steadfast presence on the battlefield' 
But then they make Scrappers as 'steadfast presence with the battlefield' 

Heck, even my condi Tempest had some pretty decent defense and sustainability. 
In comparison, those Hammer 3 balls on the Catalyst felt too limiting for me, and the slow channeled Hammer 2s? 
Yeah, they were just plain clunky. Even when I had Celestial gear on, I couldn't find a good reason to switch from Celestial Scrapper to Celestial Catalyst,
Because the Scrapper's Hammer felt way more responsive for a frontline melee weapon.

I saw some clips where they were talking about the stationary golem DPS benchmark for the Catalyst being pretty high. 
But you know what? It's a whole different story in PvP, WvW, open world, and other game modes where everything's moving around like crazy. 
So, is that it? Is the Catalyst just a full-on DPS spec with a litte of Quickness on a ideally golem? 
If that's the case, it's pretty underwhelming.

Now, When you put Elementalists and Engineers side by side, you can't help but see the huge difference. 
It's like saying 'If there is Yu, why is there Liang?'

Engineers possess a repertoire of versatile utility skills, boon removal, invaluable and swift group stability, along with continuous group superspeed. 
The Mechanist specialization is a clear testament – Engineers take the lead right from the start.

Honestly, I don't think ArenaNet could even point to a spot in Guild Wars 2 where Elementalists shine the brightest. 
As someone who's been Team Elementalist, it's starting to feel like we're playing the game on hard mode just for the fun of it. 

It's time for change. Either Engineers get a power cut, or they buff Elementalists. 
Balancing is key, but turning GW2 into "Mecha Pet Simulator" is no solution.

THE KING HAS RETURNED!

Edited November 29, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[SleepyBat.9034]

Considering that he just wrote a post about how engineer Shortbow is op I'm not sure I buy what he's selling.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Oh it's the guy whose parents were killed by a pack of wild engineers.  

[Ace.1784]

8 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

Ele is perpetually stuck as a class that is 1) unplayable and weak & 2) overpowered unkillable class

Just depends on who you ask and how good the ele in question is

 

For the 11 years I have played this game, this forum has non-stop complained about ele. In the very beginning, I rolled mesmer on release just cause of the advice, hated it, went ele and it was busted (D/D).

When Tornado gave you stats and you could literally solo wipe a zerg with meteornado, I was reading posts on this forum about buffing staff because it lacks damage.

When Catalyst came out and was buffed several times, this forum complained about how bad it was when it was, busted (I play PvE/WvW and it was oppressive). Even after the nerfs, Catalyst was still incredibly strong.

Some people were advocating for Weaver as the better build. I played it for a bit and it has absolutely none of the survivability catalyst has in solo play.

All this to say, you can't really listen to this forum. There are some really great/informed opinions here and there, but an overwhelming majority are not useful.

[Arheundel.6451]

13 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

Ele is perpetually stuck as a class that is 1) unplayable and weak & 2) overpowered unkillable class

Just depends on who you ask and how good the ele in question is

Honestly...nobody cares what others think of them in a videogame! Good?...bad?...Nobody cares! All players care is to win...the easier the better, it's all about winning while having fun and this class stopped being fun a long time ago! It's frustrating as kitten to demand people to put effort in the same videogame where another can go and win by pressing couple of buttons on a necromancer. I give zero xxxx what Toothfairy.3333 of whatever think of me over the internet, I am tired as kitten of going through half dozen combos to reach same level of damage as a monkey pressing 11111111 on another class....what asinine game design is this? 

There is currently zero reward for all the complexity...so why the kitten there is this complexity in the first place? Now they added this cretin weapon design : 2-3, 2-3, 2-3 then go back 3-2, 2-2 d'ho...then a necro with sword comes and press 11111111...yay....what the actual kitten is this kitten?

I am tired as kitten of this kitten!

I played this class for 12k hours now, PvP...WvW...won duels,useless pvp titles....and I don't give a kitten about all of that, I would like to  delete this kitten already like a did with beta character just now, kitten so bad this design: you go in..dodge this..dodge that..time attack...count dodges..kite for dear life...then a monkey on a necromancer comes and press 1-2 and you lose 3/4 health if you do a single misstep ...or you go through another half dozen rotation only for a spellbreaker with staff to come and facetank everything while rotating fullcounter, shield stance, defy pain...then I run out of dodges and here comes CC..cc..cc and then bam lose half HP with a single hit!

Yeah...the usual trolls can go and drown this post with sad emoji or whatever childish comment they may leave....nobody cares , I am extremely pissed right now due to this pistol kitten design: magic bullets going so slow....I can leave the 4th floor..go make a tea in the kitchen downstairs..come back and the magic bullet still travelling....d'ho...meanwhile come necro sword and you get hit by 2 green arcs at superspeed....what sort of game design is this?

Edited November 30, 2023 by Arheundel.6451

[Arheundel.6451]

17 hours ago, CETheLucid.3964 said:

Yeah, sure.

Still can farm bad rangers on ele.....only you can farm bad rangers on any class...even much easier than on ele...it's just that bad rangers tend to pewpewpewpewpew into reflect, which is the only noticeable future of ele...hence the huge salt flask from rangers toward ele...the bad ones at least

[solemn.9670]

13 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Honestly...nobody cares what others think of them in a videogame! Good?...bad?...Nobody cares! All players care is to win...the easier the better, it's all about winning while having fun and this class stopped being fun a long time ago! It's frustrating as kitten to demand people to put effort in the same videogame where another can go and win by pressing couple of buttons on a necromancer. I give zero xxxx what Toothfairy.3333 of whatever think of me over the internet, I am tired as kitten of going through half dozen combos to reach same level of damage as a monkey pressing 11111111 on another class....what asinine game design is this? 

There is currently zero reward for all the complexity...so why the kitten there is this complexity in the first place? Now they added this cretin weapon design : 2-3, 2-3, 2-3 then go back 3-2, 2-2 d'ho...then a necro with sword comes and press 11111111...yay....what the actual kitten is this kitten?

I am tired as kitten of this kitten!

I played this class for 12k hours now, PvP...WvW...won duels,useless pvp titles....and I don't give a kitten about all of that, I would like to  delete this kitten already like a did with beta character just now, kitten so bad this design: you go in..dodge this..dodge that..time attack...count dodges..kite for dear life...then a monkey on a necromancer comes and press 1-2 and you lose 3/4 health if you do a single misstep ...or you go through another half dozen rotation only for a spellbreaker with staff to come and facetank everything while rotating fullcounter, shield stance, defy pain...then I run out of dodges and here comes CC..cc..cc and then bam lose half HP with a single hit!

Yeah...the usual trolls can go and drown this post with sad emoji or whatever childish comment they may leave....nobody cares , I am extremely pissed right now due to this pistol kitten design: magic bullets going so slow....I can leave the 4th floor..go make a tea in the kitchen downstairs..come back and the magic bullet still travelling....d'ho...meanwhile come necro sword and you get hit by 2 green arcs at superspeed....what sort of game design is this?

I mean.. you're not really wrong

Calming down would help your message be easier to receive for most ppl tho lol

[Sahfur.5612]

Depends on your build. Also not every class is a hammer that fits every nail in wvw, so find your location, commit and distance that suits your build.
That said, staff doesn't do enough for how much work goes into it so regardless of what people think about other ele kits, at least a rework of that should happen.
Didn't mess much with pistols yet, so can't really say much about it. Didn't look particularly fun.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Sahfur.5612

[UNOwen.7132]

Lmao what? Elese is strong in all 3 gamemodes. Its even debatably the single best roamer in WvW.

[Sirvaleen.1379]

On 12/4/2023 at 7:44 PM, UNOwen.7132 said:

Lmao what? Elese is strong in all 3 gamemodes. Its even debatably the single best roamer in WvW.

It's been a while since I had to run from an ele roamer. Not saying they're "bad" clearly, but they're not the unstoppable force of nature they used to be. So I really don't agree with the "single best roamer" part. Willbenders don't agree with that part either 🤭

[DaKillaOfHell.5907]

Let me answer that.

 

Is Ele the weakest class?

 

Not really.

 

Is Ele the weakest class compared to the effort you have to invest to have a halfway decent build?

 

Definitely yes! There is simply no other class whose gameplay is that tedious to have at least a decent output. 

And most of it comes down to basic design. Ele has more skills. More skills but overall far weaker than those of other classes. Then the elite-spec-mechanics, not to mention the base mechanic of attunements! You have tons of skills, but you need to use those skills in a flawless execution, otherwise your output drops a lot. Ele gameplay is the most unforgiving of any other class in GW2.

 

And that is, why it seems to many people, that Ele is the weakest class out there, but just the gameplay is far too complicated for the majority of people. Meanwhile, other people just roflstomp everything because of having too many hours played. 

[Crowfang.8529]

Ele is actually the strongest PvP class so no. You see them eveywhere. They're tanky, have dmg and mobility.

If you're talking about PvE, yes it's not the most conveniant class but it's doing it's job pretty fine.

[Jzaku.9765]

On 11/30/2023 at 8:08 AM, Arheundel.6451 said:

Honestly...nobody cares what others think of them in a videogame! Good?...bad?...Nobody cares! All players care is to win...the easier the better, it's all about winning while having fun and this class stopped being fun a long time ago! It's frustrating as kitten to demand people to put effort in the same videogame where another can go and win by pressing couple of buttons on a necromancer. I give zero xxxx what Toothfairy.3333 of whatever think of me over the internet, I am tired as kitten of going through half dozen combos to reach same level of damage as a monkey pressing 11111111 on another class....what asinine game design is this? 

There is currently zero reward for all the complexity...so why the kitten there is this complexity in the first place? Now they added this cretin weapon design : 2-3, 2-3, 2-3 then go back 3-2, 2-2 d'ho...then a necro with sword comes and press 11111111...yay....what the actual kitten is this kitten?

I am tired as kitten of this kitten!

I played this class for 12k hours now, PvP...WvW...won duels,useless pvp titles....and I don't give a kitten about all of that, I would like to  delete this kitten already like a did with beta character just now, kitten so bad this design: you go in..dodge this..dodge that..time attack...count dodges..kite for dear life...then a monkey on a necromancer comes and press 1-2 and you lose 3/4 health if you do a single misstep ...or you go through another half dozen rotation only for a spellbreaker with staff to come and facetank everything while rotating fullcounter, shield stance, defy pain...then I run out of dodges and here comes CC..cc..cc and then bam lose half HP with a single hit!

Yeah...the usual trolls can go and drown this post with sad emoji or whatever childish comment they may leave....nobody cares , I am extremely pissed right now due to this pistol kitten design: magic bullets going so slow....I can leave the 4th floor..go make a tea in the kitchen downstairs..come back and the magic bullet still travelling....d'ho...meanwhile come necro sword and you get hit by 2 green arcs at superspeed....what sort of game design is this?

Here's a video from 8 years ago. It's a tale as old as time. That's just the intended class identity of Ele even from launch. 

[TheQuickFox.3826]

9 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

Here's a video from 8 years ago. It's a tale as old as time. That's just the intended class identity of Ele even from launch. 

This. And when Ele gets something vaguely useful on the defense side of PvP, like a lava font when downed, a stone heart that gives crit immunity while camping in earth or celestial stats in PvP, Anet just removes it.

[Ahlaradra.5837]

For how much effort they require, and for how many buttons you must press, the pay off is certainly not adequate.
It also never made sense to me how Elementalist has to be the highest investment class from the dev's side. They have to invest so much time creating 100 different skills per ele spec, with beautiful icons, numbers etc. and then they treat it with negligence and just nerf it whenever a trace of fun and comfort blossoms for the class.

[CafPow.1542]

Ele is quite complicated compared to… let’s say necro. I play those 2 and i like them both. Ele is awesome, and can deal with hard encounters almost better than necro but you have to act and react to stuff, whereas necro can just tank everything with his face.

 

This „issue“ is almost as old as the game. I wouldn’t give 2 cents about the saltmine this forums sometimes are tho so chill and get better at the class.

[zeyeti.8347]

Ele is a quite complicated thing to balance , you will have on one side ppl who cannot play it correctly (like me) and think it is too high investement for what it brings , that's the most high % of ele players , and on the other side ppl who master it and think it is pefectly fine like it is , those represent an absurdly low % of ele players.

First of all , can someone explain me why does ele have the ultra light armor (make  a bit of sense as it is like this for all caster like class) but why this freaking low 11500 hp pool ?

Second , because you have 2x more skills than anyone (except engi if many kits are used) all the skills need to be "tuned down" because some ppl (the low %) will abuse it.

Then you have the weapons ... there isn't any weapon who is fully oriented in a specific role (hammer is the only exception here) so that means if you play let's say tempest support staff , what's the point going in fire ? blasting combo fields for 3 stacks of might ? what's the point going water with a sword as dps ? you hit like a wet noodle and skill 2 make you fly away from your target ... and that's for all weapons . So it's nice to have 20 skills to use , but when you end up using only half of those skills because you have a specific role it feels bad and you don't understand the tune down.

And then something really horrible to deal with is the cc accessibility , ele can have great cc , but they are too often hidden behind an attunement ... who is either on cd while you need the cc or it's an attunement you don't wanna go cause it doesnt benefit your role , especially on weaver cause you have the 4sec cd on all attunements.

Ele rely to much on other to be effective in too many cases , if you have alacrity holes your rotation is kittened up while others have minimal changes to apply.

You cannot switch weapon so if you are based melee , well goodbye dps while you can't melee , engi can still go grenades and throw the auto to minimalize the dps loss, ele can't and don't tell me conjured weapons !

And as many other said , even in open world you have classes were you can go full zerk , like spellbreaker, reaper, virtuoso , etc , but gl going full zerk ele with your 11500 hp ...

Edited December 11, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Jzaku.9765]

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

<stuff>

Quote

if you play let's say tempest support staff , what's the point going in fire ? blasting combo fields for 3 stacks of might ?

Yes? Might is an essential part of any support build. More than that, Burning Retreat is one of the best movement skills in the game.

Quote

what's the point going water with a sword as dps ? you hit like a wet noodle and skill 2 make you fly away from your target ...

It's an evade. That's like complaining that dodging is a DPS loss. It's just an extra dodge that also heals you.

Quote

So it's nice to have 20 skills to use , but when you end up using only half of those skills because you have a specific role it feels bad and you don't understand the tune down.

This is a crazy take that is extremely common in this subforum. The fact that Ele essentially carries around a whole bunch of utility focused skills on their weapon is a STRENGTH of the class.

Which build is better, the DPS build that uses every single skill in all 4 Elements for DPS, or the DPS build that only uses Fire/Air, with purely utility skills in Water/Earth? They do approximately equal DPS btw, it's basically comparing most of Ele's Sw/Sc + Wh builds against its Hammer builds in the current patch. Even back in the Era this subforum loves to talk about when Staff was the best Ele DPS weapon with Staff Weaver, it used exclusively Fire/Earth and that was considered a strength of the build. 

[Jski.6180]

Maybe the weakest passive class every thing on ele is active so you always have to use an skill or your doing nothing. So channel effects are a lot more riskly for ele then other classes.