Power Creep Making Map Mechanics Obsolete Has Me Down

[Perihen the Thawk.9527]

I've been having a lot of fun with EoD and SotO, and I realized today that I haven't played Drizzlewood in a long time. It used to be my absolute favorite map. I loved the WvW-lite aspect of the meta, just a really great vibe overall. So I was kind of excited to dive back in and finish farming a few things.

Well... I mean, Drizzlewood isn't the only map this has happened too, but its kind of sad. The Siege Turtle has just absolutely neutered the whole experience of this map for me. Gates just fall instantly because there are always 5 players to turtle them down. There is absolutely zero reason to engage with most of the core map mechanics anymore. Siege is useless, you don't even have time to deploy it. Power creep in DPS makes fights that used to feel cinematic feel like awkward checklists, events are over before you even have a change to get into the feel of it.

Maybe I'm alone in this because I know everybody just wants these things to go faster so they can farm them, but I really miss the epic sprawl a lot of these old metas had. Drizzlewood isn't the only victim. So many metas just completely lack the immersion and sense of scale that they used to have because everything just dies so quick, people can fly everywhere, CC bars melt, boons keep everyone alive no matter where they stand, etc, etc. It makes everything but the newest maps feel hollow.

I know it's hard to keep introducing new features without power creep, and I do like the overall vision of masteries being global. But I still really wish Anet would do something about it. I know we had a DPS nerf pass once, maybe it's time for another one? An event like the final battle in Dragon's Stand that was designed around gliders could easily be a no-mount zone. Turtles could have a breakbar damage split between pre/post-Eod maps? I don't know what the answer is, but I just feel kind of depressed playing through some of these older maps, it just feels like no one cares and is glad to just blow through them now.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

I wish Warclaw and those sieges worked on every map. Making map exclusive mechanics without letting it be used anywhere is is a shame.

[Astralporing.1957]

22 minutes ago, Perihen the Thawk.9527 said:

I've been having a lot of fun with EoD and SotO, and I realized today that I haven't played Drizzlewood in a long time. It used to be my absolute favorite map. I loved the WvW-lite aspect of the meta, just a really great vibe overall. So I was kind of excited to dive back in and finish farming a few things.

Well... I mean, Drizzlewood isn't the only map this has happened too, but its kind of sad. The Siege Turtle has just absolutely neutered the whole experience of this map for me. Gates just fall instantly because there are always 5 players to turtle them down. There is absolutely zero reason to engage with most of the core map mechanics anymore. Siege is useless, you don't even have time to deploy it. Power creep in DPS makes fights that used to feel cinematic feel like awkward checklists, events are over before you even have a change to get into the feel of it.

Maybe I'm alone in this because I know everybody just wants these things to go faster so they can farm them, but I really miss the epic sprawl a lot of these old metas had. Drizzlewood isn't the only victim. So many metas just completely lack the immersion and sense of scale that they used to have because everything just dies so quick, people can fly everywhere, CC bars melt, boons keep everyone alive no matter where they stand, etc, etc. It makes everything but the newest maps feel hollow.

I know it's hard to keep introducing new features without power creep, and I do like the overall vision of masteries being global. But I still really wish Anet would do something about it. I know we had a DPS nerf pass once, maybe it's time for another one? An event like the final battle in Dragon's Stand that was designed around gliders could easily be a no-mount zone. Turtles could have a breakbar damage split between pre/post-Eod maps? I don't know what the answer is, but I just feel kind of depressed playing through some of these older maps, it just feels like no one cares and is glad to just blow through them now.

You must have stopped doing that map very early, because siege stopped being deployed as soon as players got to higher levels of EMP mastery.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Remember when Death Branded Shatterer was new content and the possibility of killing him without killing the stalkers was just a theory? 

 

[Cuks.8241]

It's a combination of pure power creep and masteries - mostly mounts, like your example of Turtle and also Skyscale and other mounts. 

It's really hard problem to tackle generally. Anet will not nerf power in general and it would be also problematic because new content is balanced to current power. And Anet will not take away mounts or nerf them in general because that would just be detrimental and cause a lot of bad blood.

So the only way I see is to actually tackle specific bosses and events. It's a lot of work but if they tackle the most known and epic ones it would be good for the game. And they did it with some world bosses.

I think these changes have to go in 2 ways. One is just plain buff of the boss. For example DBS and Stalkers. Increase the healing when stalkers are up. The second is change in mechanics or restriction of certain masteries. For example Drizzlewood doors take less dmg from turtles. Or they have more hp and take more dmg from IBS mastery. Doesn't even have to be a direct restriction. For example Dragonstand. In the tower phase you are basically all the time in combat. Which means you can't mount. If game would just keep player in combat until Mouth of Mordremoth is dead, no one could mount during the last phase and players would have to use intended mechanics. Event would still be easy but at least it would be engaging.

My interest in meta events is currently very low. I hardly do it. The only meta even that interest me is Soo Won. it's not even that it's harder, that is not the most important. It's just that most other meta events are just rush rush rush. And how in the end plays out; wait 10 min, rush and burn for 3 min, potentially again wait 10 mins for last chest (Gerrent). That's good if your goal is farming I guess. But if you are interested in actually playing the game it's just annoying and boring.

[kharmin.7683]

50 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

So the only way I see is to actually tackle specific bosses and events. It's a lot of work but if they tackle the most known and epic ones it would be good for the game. And they did it with some world bosses.

If ANet changes other bosses like they did with the starter zone ones, I'd expect a lot of complaints.  As someone who frequently travels on the world boss train, the starter zone bosses are a slog.  Personally, I like that ANet gave each of them a different set of mechanics, but the sponginess of their HP, to me, is overly much.  For my experience, Jungle Wurm is about right but the other three (FE, SB, FM) become rather boring due to the length of time that they often take.

I do like the idea behind sprucing up many of the bosses in light of the current power creep situation.  Just with more care than those starter zone ones.

[LSD.4673]

The poor balance removing the need to bother with any form of mechanics is one thing, but the neutered siege is another entirely.

Before the turtle people just brought a waystation and spammed explosive charges. Waystations, though, are another example of the crappy balance. Before them, only organised teams broke breakbars. Now you just need a handful of guys to bother using the waystation.

It's dumb all around.

[Gop.8713]

I was just thinking about drizzlewood this weekend bc it is my favorite map as well and I also haven't been back in months. Still thousands of cache keys to burn through lol. Tell me, do ppls still insist on doing the tribunes sequentially or have they finally figured out how to spread out and take advantage of scaling for that phase . . ?

[Chichimec.9364]

4 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

...So the only way I see is to actually tackle specific bosses and events. It's a lot of work but if they tackle the most known and epic ones it would be good for the game. And they did it with some world bosses...

 

3 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

If ANet changes other bosses like they did with the starter zone ones, I'd expect a lot of complaints.  As someone who frequently travels on the world boss train, the starter zone bosses are a slog.  Personally, I like that ANet gave each of them a different set of mechanics, but the sponginess of their HP, to me, is overly much.  For my experience, Jungle Wurm is about right but the other three (FE, SB, FM) become rather boring due to the length of time that they often take...

Given how Anet handled buffing up the world bosses in the beginner zones, I'd be leery of them doing something similar to other bosses. I use to enjoy doing the Shadow Behemoth and the Svanair Shaman if I happened to be in those zones when they came up. They were a quick, fun little fight for a maxed out character. Now though, they are such hp sponges that they feel more like a tedious slog to me too. I do them when they come up in my weeklies but I don't consider them fun anymore and haven't since Anet "buffed" them. I'm not saying the OP is wrong, I am just saying I have a different opinion. And I imagine those kind of conflicting viewpoints are just one piece of what makes balance in this game so difficult to achieve. Having said that, I think there is a solution, one that Anet has used before. That's content with varying degrees of difficulty, from casual and easy to really challenging and hard so people could choose what they are comfortable with. Fractals seem to be designed that way. As a casual, LI player, I'll do low level fractals but have no interest in the high level stuff. Same thing with strikes. I'll do them sometimes with guildies but CMs are not for me.

[DeanBB.4268]

I agree, the buffed starter zone WB's are now not-so-fun. Of the four, I find Svanir in Wayfarer the most engaging, I suppose just because he has the zoomies. The FE, Wurm and Behemoth are just AoE-laying HP sponges with too many adds. So I'd hate for other WBs to receive similar "improvements."

[Mistwraithe.3106]

Totally agreed with OP. I think a rebalance pass would be a great idea, hopefully they learnt from the starter rebalancing (which wasn’t bad, it perhaps just went slightly too far).

I also agree that Dragonstand should be gliders only.

[Linken.6345]

4 hours ago, Gop.8713 said:

I was just thinking about drizzlewood this weekend bc it is my favorite map as well and I also haven't been back in months. Still thousands of cache keys to burn through lol. Tell me, do ppls still insist on doing the tribunes sequentially or have they finally figured out how to spread out and take advantage of scaling for that phase . . ?

Well people want memory of otter so I think they still do it sequentially

[ArchonWing.9480]

Unfortunately, all content breaks down when it's on "farm" mode. We have people in this game that can instantly nuke CM bosses for a very long time even before power creep was as such.  Everyone knows the optimal movements and even where to stand in order to delete mobs more efficiently. Making the content harder sounds like a good idea but I think that tends to hurt less organized groups that just came on in vs an organized group trying to steamroll the content so they can move to the next thing.

I suppose we could have a hard mode switch that guilds could flip to make that instance harder, but that may come with its own set of issues.

Edited January 30 by ArchonWing.9480

[Ashantara.8731]

I hadn't done the open world Boneskinner event in Bjora Marches since the release of the map. I went there a couple of days ago on my alt account to do said event, and guess what happened? It was dead within seconds.

That's not how I remembered it! 😂 "What?! I was supposed to save some NPCs during this?? Oops!"

Edited January 30 by Ashantara.8731

[Gop.8713]

5 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Well people want memory of otter so I think they still do it sequentially

Ah that is disappointing. I'd hoped maybe some vets had stuck around to help the new ppls understand the chests the otters are in do not require participation for this very reason. Still feeling a little nostalgic for the map, maybe I'll hop in and help rectify the situation one day soon. Those dragonball tokens tho. So time consuming . . .

[Zebulous.2934]

Well instead of turning everything into a hp sponge.  Bosses and lesser enemies could be given utility skills.  Condition cleanses, boon rips, interrupts, ect.  Whether the enemies have algorithms that can effectively use those abilities is another matter.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

14 hours ago, Gop.8713 said:

I was just thinking about drizzlewood this weekend bc it is my favorite map as well and I also haven't been back in months. Still thousands of cache keys to burn through lol. Tell me, do ppls still insist on doing the tribunes sequentially or have they finally figured out how to spread out and take advantage of scaling for that phase . . ?

Why do you purposefully want less Gifts from Otter?

[Gop.8713]

5 hours ago, Eloc Freidon.5692 said:

Why do you purposefully want less Gifts from Otter?

You're confused about how the map works. The start of the north half is designed so that once you secure the breach, you're supposed to spread out and do the other four tribunes simultaneously. From a rewards perspective, this method gives you access to all of the chests that contain both the memories of otter and the gifts from otter. You don't lose out on either . . .

And from a design perspective it's part of what makes it the best map in the game. It's not just a 'follow tag and press one' meta, it's got a brilliant variety as you move from south through north, sometimes hopping from zone to zone more or less as an individual, sometimes spreading out in smaller groups to fight tougher opponents, and sometimes coming together for the major set pieces -- it's a lot like wvw that way ; )

Everything about the map, from scaling to rewards to npc dialogue to map indicators to map mechanics even down to the design of the map achievements was built to encourage players to take advantage of this design and for the most part players responded by . . . following the tag and pressing one lol ; p

Which I think speaks to the OP's point, it's not so much a design problem from anet's standpoint as an unwillingness from players to engage with content when they're asked to take a more complex or nuanced approach than usual . . .

But I think we're maybe moving a little bit away from the main thrust of the thread. If you'd like to discuss drizzlewood I'd love to see some activity that might revive interest in that great map, but that's maybe better done in a dedicated thread. OP's mention of drizzlewood struck a nostalgic chord with me, but I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion of just that one example of OP's larger point . . .

[LSD.4673]

44 minutes ago, Gop.8713 said:

You're confused about how the map works. The start of the north half is designed so that once you secure the breach, you're supposed to spread out and do the other four tribunes simultaneously. From a rewards perspective, this method gives you access to all of the chests that contain both the memories of otter and the gifts from otter. You don't lose out on either . . .

Each tribune chest despawns when the next one appears, like with South. So that doesn't work.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

Increase power creep, anything that ups it is great.  I dont like standing around waiting for meta events to end, anything that ends them faster is better. 

[Sobx.1758]

Agreed OP, power creep needs to be pulled back. DPS breaking intended encounter design is stupid and shouldn't have place.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Agreed OP, power creep needs to be pulled back. DPS breaking intended encounter design is stupid and shouldn't have place.

so it should take longer to kill a boss but spamming 1 with skyscale isnt breaking the intended encounter design? especially when you get full credit for doing just that?  Might as well just  help those that actually are doing the event by giving them more power in order to compensate for all the "intended gameplay" skyscale users.

Edited February 1 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Sobx.1758]

3 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

so it should take longer to kill a boss but spamming 1 with skyscale isnt breaking the intended encounter design? especially when you get full credit for doing just that?  Might as well just  help those that actually are doing the event by giving them more power in order to compensate for all the "intended gameplay" skyscale users.

Me saying that this particular thing destroys intended enounter design doesn't mean it's the only possibility to destroy intended encounter design. So no, what you wrote here is just a bad strawman attempt -especially since I already complained about tagging events on skyscale in other threads, including the one where anet shared the news about adding that skill before soto release.

Skyscale tagging events isn't a reason to increase power creep, it's only a reason to fix skyscale tagging events.

Edited February 1 by Sobx.1758

[Aridonas.7615]

20 hours ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

Well instead of turning everything into a hp sponge.  Bosses and lesser enemies could be given utility skills.  Condition cleanses, boon rips, interrupts, ect.  Whether the enemies have algorithms that can effectively use those abilities is another matter.

Enemies are, or rather were, capable of this behavior. It was removed after the beta as combat was allegedly deemed too “difficult”.

Example: early Queensdale in beta weekend 2. Bandits actively dodged your skills, rolled around you, blocked attacks, stunned you, cleansed themselves from conditions, etc. Although it was not perfect, it did actually feel like you were combating a decently smart opponent that sometimes even resembled another player’s defensive actions. Now they just stand there and get obliterated, like everything else.

Wish they would have stuck to their original game design philosophy that they had early on. Maybe in GW3. 

[Shiyo.3578]

Power creep is a big issue in a game with such anemic content updates.

Every expac essentially removes more content than it adds due to power creep.

Edited February 1 by Shiyo.3578