GW2 has serious design flaws

[SuavePuppy.2809]

35 minutes ago, Avind De Maros.7306 said:

Either way, creating content that requires players to learn how to complete it by looking it up stifles independent thought and helps to push the doctrine of "If you want to succeed, do as I say."  This is how you make people dependent upon others while suppressing creative thought processes.   

"Now let me whine about the game not holding my hand through everything"

35 minutes ago, Avind De Maros.7306 said:

I am fully aware that it takes a lot of time to learn all the ins and outs and then write up a coherent guide.

Yes, because the wiki has never been incomplete or even sometimes non-existent for new content. 

19 minutes ago, Avind De Maros.7306 said:

Sounds to me like you are one who speaks before you have all the information and then convinces yourself that you are knowledgeable and wise.

Projection is a hell of a drug.

1 hour ago, Avind De Maros.7306 said:

They simply follow the instructions of others.  There is a lot of that going on in the world today.  It is all a part of "Dumbing down the human race".

And we've arrived in bait territory.

We know there are problems with the game, but please take your conspiracy theories back over to ESO.

[Sobx.1758]

Scavenger hunts not being specifically marked on the map so they would turn into another "run from one npc to another" task -except the npcs are reskinned into different objects- is supposed to be a serious design flaw now? While I'm sure some of the achievements might use more ingame information, I wouldn't say this is one of them. You are supposed to keep looking for the nests. If you want to take a shortcut to just follow the list of locations then that's your choice and clearly you're able to do that exactly like you did.
I'd say it's better to put those specific instructions (or rather lists of marked locations) outside of the game so people who want to do it by themselves actually can without automatic ingame spoilers. If you don't want to bother looking for the objectives by yourself then you already found the solution to that.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

The wiki guide on Skyscale acquisition method was not available until 4-5 days after release. I know, because I was there when SotO was first dropped. Lots of players' confusion why some people could find the egg within just 3-4 tries, whereas others had to go through all 14 nests to get it. Map chat in Skywatch or Amnytas was asked non-stop, questions even popped on reddit and Facebook groups. I was among those who tried to look on wiki too but there wasn't anything available until the aforementioned time, and had to ask around. I don't remember if it was an Anet official statement or people just concluded that the egg is RNG, but finally a fully written wiki guide was put up and the questions stopped appearing. So the wiki is 100% player made and run, Anet could come out and clarify some confusion but ultimately the writers are volunteering players. There's no conspiracy here, the GW2 players are that awesome. Some contributed so much that they were respectfully honored by Anet when they passed away.

And regarding the 2nd point, did you know that you can bookmark an achievement by clicking the eye icon on its top right? It'll then show the achievement on your playing screen, along with the % of completion if there's any. And if you complete the achievement, it'll be deleted from the bookmark. 

[jokke.6239]

Yeah I view wiki sort of as part of the game. 

Best thing I can imagine is if they could implement a UI for it in-game.

/wiki helps a lot though (in borderless settings it doesn't take you out of the game, so sort of feel like you are still in the world, if that makes sense)

This is pretty common for MMORPG's though

This is not just a GW2 thing

Edited March 23 by jokke.6239

[Omega.6801]

I wouldn't call it "design flaws". More like "design decisions that don't align with you" and that's fine. Not everyone has to like everything and as it seems, you have found a MMO that is more to your liking already. But still, to adress a few things:

1) Not being able to solo things in a MMO is not a good complaint. Sure the days of runescape or vanilla WoW are long gone and times have changed making MMOs more single player friendly. Which is probably for the better. However, demanding that a MMO should be 100% soloable is just not reasonable. As others have pointed out MMOs are by definition multiplayer games.
Also in the example the OP gives the interactions with other players are "asking for help" which is something that has happened in gaming since before the internet has been a thing and could have been avoided by the OP simply not asking for help. Not saying there is no group content or that there is no content in GW2 that is gated behind playing in a group, there is. But setting the bar as low as having to ask for help is very strange imho.

2) The reliance on the /wiki for information is indeed a bit of a problem in some instances. It is optional, sure, but when it comes to some collections or scavenger hunts I, personally can't imagine how people are able to do it without the /wiki or yt. I guess it's possible by just looking/searching. But however, the resources are there, the /wiki is even available more or less in-game, people are online already as well, so I kinda don't know what all the fuss is about. Yes it does take away the challenge, but again, it is optional, if someone wants the challenge, they can opt out and have the challenge.

3) Tbf, getting that darn egg was a very frustrating experience for many players even with the /wiki and the whole community behind them. The collection was unclear, getting the egg was RNG, some players got it in three attempts others didn't get it after a week and there was no sure fire way to get it if you had bad RNG. ANet, as they do, did not communicate with us on the matter. So all in all. Yes, I understand that this particular experience was extremly frustrating. It is however not the average. What is true nonetheless is that GW2 might just not be the MMO for you. The only time you will have puzzles to solve on your own will be during some story instances maybe, and there they will never be hard. In the open world it will most likely always be some sort of movement puzzle, scavenger hunt, collection or checklist.

Edited March 23 by Omega.6801

[AliamRationem.5172]

8 hours ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

I felt the same, Anet claims this is a casual friendly game, yet you need a flying mount to achieve most things so you're in the bottleneck of the forced grind.

I don't think you need a flying mount for a single thing that isn't directly related to flying mounts (e.g. griffon mastery courses), do you?  And whenever you do, don't they give you access to a temporary?

[Ashen.2907]

I dont think it is so much a, "design flaw," as it is a design decision, like so many others, that not everyone enjoys. I dont consider the existence of jumping puzzles in GW2 to be a design flaw so much as they are content that does not appeal to me.

[Danikat.8537]

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Scavenger hunts not being specifically marked on the map so they would turn into another "run from one npc to another" task -except the npcs are reskinned into different objects- is supposed to be a serious design flaw now? While I'm sure some of the achievements might use more ingame information, I wouldn't say this is one of them. You are supposed to keep looking for the nests. If you want to take a shortcut to just follow the list of locations then that's your choice and clearly you're able to do that exactly like you did.
I'd say it's better to put those specific instructions (or rather lists of marked locations) outside of the game so people who want to do it by themselves actually can without automatic ingame spoilers. If you don't want to bother looking for the objectives by yourself then you already found the solution to that.

I agree. I hate it in games where the set-up for a quest is getting told I'll need to search for something, but then the game gives me map markers pointing to the exact location/s. Why take the time to set it up as if it's a search if I'm not going to be given any opportunity to figure it out for myself and instead I'm pointed straight to the solution? If you're going to do that make the dialogue match - have the NPC giving the instructions say exactly where to go.

It probably helps that exploring and seeing what I can find as I'm poking around all the odd corners of a map is one of my favourite things to do in a game, so I don't mind when I need to take some time to hunt for things, because I'm going to do that anyway so actually having something to find is a nice bonus.

[Axelteas.7192]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I don't think you need a flying mount for a single thing that isn't directly related to flying mounts (e.g. griffon mastery courses), do you?  And whenever you do, don't they give you access to a temporary?

There's lots of dominion points where you can only access with a flying mount. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

11 minutes ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

There's lots of dominion points where you can only access with a flying mount. 

Drizzlewood?  Doesn't that map have parachute drops?  You could glide in right? 

[Manpag.6421]

The only thing I can think of that explicitly needs a flying mount is that one mastery point in Dragonfall that can only be obtained by flying through it on a skyscale (even though you can physically reach it on other mounts or by gliding).

For everything else, there’s Mastercard usually another way up, Teleport to Friend, or mesmer portals.

[SuavePuppy.2809]

1 hour ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

There's lots of dominion points where you can only access with a flying mount. 

Dominion points = most things? 

Most of this game, objectively, does not need a flying mount 

[AliamRationem.5172]

28 minutes ago, Manpag.6421 said:

The only thing I can think of that explicitly needs a flying mount is that one mastery point in Dragonfall that can only be obtained by flying through it on a skyscale (even though you can physically reach it on other mounts or by gliding).

For everything else, there’s Mastercard usually another way up, Teleport to Friend, or mesmer portals.

But you can rent-a-skyscale on that map, no?

[Manpag.6421]

22 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

But you can rent-a-skyscale on that map, no?

Yes, but even that requires unlocking; you have to complete the first three chapters of LW4E6, they aren’t automatically accessible when you actually get access to the map. SotO does it better by giving you full access to skyscale when you’re in those maps.

[Baddxian.3851]

Isn't this post a week early for April Fool's?

[Crono.4197]

And there it is, the weekly "Guild Wars 2 is bad and should change for me" ranting post. At least this time the rant is a bit better organized.

And this time it's about...not being able to do things 100% solo in an MMO? The rants on this forum never cease to amaze me.

[Biziut.3594]

Decides to cheese the game by using wiki or yt, complains that the game is dependant on wiki and yt. 

Not like there is anything wrong with using wiki and yt if one want to, I do it myself usually. Just let's not forget that this helpful guides and achivments are made and beaten by players. The fact that they share with us how to make them is their good will.

[Smol.7985]

19 hours ago, Avind De Maros.7306 said:

 

1) Being forced into a group

2) Being forced to ask someone else how to accomplish something

3) Being forced to leave the game to do research in a wiki or on You Tube

 

At this point i feel like you're forcing yourself to play the game , instead you can just move on with your life . Be free of this game that forces you to do stuff 😂

[Athena.6854]

19 hours ago, Avind De Maros.7306 said:

Once again I am at a point where the design flaws in GW2 have made playing this game an exercise in aggravation.  I have repeatedly run across situation where the design of the game makes it absolutely impossible for a solo player to advance and when, in those rare moments that a solo player can accomplish something without being led around on the wiki leash or while being forced to follow another player, the game borders on useless in how a player is guided.

My most recent experience with this is the process  of acquiring the sky scale mount.  I tried for two days to advance this achievement without luck.  As with almost every other achievement in this game I made zero progress and was once again forced to open a web browser to search the wiki or You Tube.  The need to seek outside help to advance in this game is consistent to the point where it has become clear that the dev's are determined to disallow progress by individuals.  It seems that there goal is to keep everyone dependent upon doing things exactly the way they are told thus eliminating individual thought processes that are the hallmark of creative thinkers.  You either submit to the leash or you can't advance.

I left GW around five years ago and switched to playing the Elder Scrolls Online.  While there are group events and tasks, a significant portion of the game can be completed without 

1) Being forced into a group

2) Being forced to ask someone else how to accomplish something

3) Being forced to leave the game to do research in a wiki or on You Tube

When playing ESO, it is easy to advance by using a bit of cognitive process.  You can think about the situation and most often come up with a solution that will allow you to complete whatever it is you are attempting.  In Guild Wars, that borders on an impossibility.  I am sure you want a specific example so here is the latest couple I encountered.

1)  I was searching for abandoned sky scale nests.  You can spend weeks on this UNLESS YOU GO TO THE WIKI OR YOU TUBE TO SEE HOW TO COMPLETE THIS.  I diligently allowed myself to be lead on across the map like a dog on a leash in my attempt to find a nest with an abandoned egg.  While this did help to uncover huge portions of the map, the process of going from one nest to another bordered on painful.  This task became a repetitive, mind numbing exercise in frustration as nest after nest simply vanished when I checked them.  Late yesterday evening I arrived at a location where there was no nest present.  I was tired and frustrated so I shut it down for the night.  I returned this morning only to find two more locations where the You Tube leash showed that there should be a nest.  I checked my inventory.  No egg.  I realized that once again, I had reached the point where there was insufficient information in the game for me to continue.  So I went to the next version of the leash and called a friend who had completed this.  She had me open up the achievement where it showed that I already had the egg.  Wow.  It would have really been nice to have some indication show up when I found the egg.  I SAW NO INDICATION THAT THIS HAD HAPPENED.  My friend said that the achievement had changed to 14% where I had it tagged to show on my screen so I did not have to keep opening the achievement window.  So a change in the percentage of completion in text that is so small I have to squint to read it was my only indicator that I had advance the process I was trying to complete.  THANK YOU GW DEV'S!!  HOW CONSIDERATE OF YOU TO PROVIDE ME WITH SUCH A CLEAR INDICATOR THAT I HAD COMPLETED THE TASK I WAS CURRENTLY WORKING ON!  I guess it is asking to much to have something show up on the screen that stated, "Congratulations!  You have found a Sky Scale egg!"  It also seemed that the programmers did not have the foresight to change how the interaction with the nest appeared when the egg was found.  That level of coding must be incredibly difficult because I find it difficult to believe that any programmer worth their weight would believe that having the nest simply vanish regardless of the outcome of your search would make much sense at all.  You don't find the egg, the nest vanishes.  You find the egg, the nest vanishes.  No text shows up on the screen to indicate that you have completed your task.  Instead, you are left to continue searching for nests that now can not be found.  But what does that mean?  If only I had looked at the change in percentage of my progress for that achievement!  How silly of me to miss such a miniscule alteration of my screen!!

2)  The next step is to infuse the egg by traveling around Tyria to find specific items.  I traveled to the first location only to find that the list of items required was no missing from my achievement.  Once again I realized that I was up against ANOTHER FLAW IN THE DESIGN OF GW, I phoned my friend once again.  It took a few minutes, but we eventually discovered that the achievement "Find a new friend" would no longer show what was needed to be done once I completed the first task on the list.  Now that I was on the second task, I had to go back into my achievement panel, type in the title of the second task to open up the list of ingredients and then tag that so it showed up on my screen and allowed me to see the ingredients I needed to collect.  HOW SILLY OF ME TO THINK THAT THIS INFORMATION SHOULD HAVE BEEN VISIBLE WITHOUT HAVING TO ADD IT AS A SEPERATE ACHIEVEMENT.  I should have realized that the first step of the achievement and the second step OF THAT SAME ACHIEVEMENT WOULD BE TREATED AS TWO SEPERATE ACHIEVEMENTS!!!  Are you F-ing kidding me?!?!?  (Here is where the moderators will step in to block this post as they do not want any criticism of the game to show up in their beloved wiki.)  

These are just two examples of the very poor design of this game.  While I love the concept of this game, I keep running into the same type of difficulties.  The developers and designers of this gaming platform are either incompetent or out of touch with the needs of the players.  So I am going back to ESO where I can enjoy some online gaming time without the frustration of being unable to advance my in game progress without having to consult the wiki or phone a friend or look it up on You Tube.  It seems to me, that Guild Wars 2 is a game designed to stifle the thought process of it's players.  You either do it the way you are told by the sources listed above, or, in the immortal words of Gandalf the Grey, "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!"

Indeed, like you mentioned, the GW2wiki has been an integral part of the Guild Wars series since its inception, serving as a comprehensive guide accessible through in-game commands. While my intention is not to diminish the challenges you’ve faced, particularly with the solo aspects and obtaining the sky scale mount, it’s important to remember that some of the difficulties you faced are part of the game’s learning curve. 

Edited March 24 by Athena.6854

[Cuks.8241]

16 hours ago, Avind De Maros.7306 said:

If your achievement was based upon reading the cheat notes, which is essentially what a wiki is, then all you have achieved is demonstrating that you can copy someone else's work.

I agree with this.  And I do think some achievements could have a bit more guidance so they would be easier to solve without outside source. But the last thing I want is just moving from marker to marker on the map because in the end it's the same thing. Some additional flavour text and maybe more hints in NPC conversations. Markers that would appear when you're close so you dont need to pixel hunt for those small hidden items (what they are adding lately).

But you can actually solve a lot of achievs without wiki but it will take time. I've completed legendary collections with minimum outside help.

And wiki is not written by Anet, it's from players. You can see it when new content hits and it's being slowly added to.

[Cuks.8241]

double post

Edited March 24 by Cuks.8241

[Cyninja.2954]

For anyone joining in late the TL;DR:

Topic creator is unhappy with the lack of hand-holding on certain achievements. Topic creator is also unhappy with the fact that he/she can use the wiki which according to him/her is developer maintained, which it is not. Topic creator refuses to believe that the wiki is player maintained because that would undermine their point that this game needs more hand-holding. Topic creator will likely go back to ESO which in their opinion is the superior game. The end.

[Cyninja.2954]

double post

Edited March 24 by Cyninja.2954

[Astralporing.1957]

17 hours ago, Manpag.6421 said:

Some events are more complex than others, but people ignoring things like NPCs shouting “Quickly, get in the shield!” as two large glowing blue domes appear and then wondering why they get downed isn’t getting lost, it’s not paying attention.

...my memory went back to the Hearts and Minds story instance. The one where Braham does exactly that during the flying phase. And where players trying that would have realized very fast that the shield did exactly nothing.

I think this one actually got fixed in base story version at some point (after many, many years of being broken), but in Migraine version the shield retains its old, non-working "functionality" by design... and yet Braham shouts the very exact same phrase.

Yeah, sometimes listening to NPCs is just going to kill you.

[Manpag.6421]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

...my memory went back to the Hearts and Minds story instance. The one where Braham does exactly that during the flying phase. And where players trying that would have realized very fast that the shield did exactly nothing.

…

Yeah, sometimes listening to NPCs is just going to kill you.

Hah, I never knew about that! Even so, one bugged encounter doesn’t warrant ignoring mechanics forever, especially as the options are “it might be bugged and you’ll still die” or “you will definitely die”. Most mechanics that have shields like that are unblockable, can’t be evaded, have a massive AoE, and some even hit twice in quick succession just to make sure that you’re insta-killed rather than just being downed.