I remain confident in ANET. But magumma is likely their peak of excellence

[Invoker.5462]

This is a wholesome art/gameplay-relationship and not one of progression, guilds, ect. In other words, an objective take whilst disregarding the burdened bloat of RPG elements.

Magumma is the 1st -Wonder of the gameworld- to exist. At a time when people raved about the new zelda or God of War, I'd often wonder how they'd react to Magumma. Taking into account this area runs butter smooth on an MMORPG server with hundreds of players, the gameplay-art relationship is without compromise - almost as if the artist, game designer and software dev were the same person. Indicative of a team working in perfect unison to create something the likes which has still to this day not been challenged by any other gaming company.

That magic, however, seems to have been a one-off, one time thing. Perhaps this was the pre-covid, pre trump Era when Anet saw its team blossom to something beyond a buisness model, and into the realm of world leading game game/art development.

And I believe that since then, due to the turbulence of the world- as we see quality drop across the board (not just in gaming) so too will this golden age of Anet remain as such, a measurable period of excellence, creativity and teamwork the likes the world may never see again.

While still unmatched (not even close) by anyone else in the industry. Magumma stands tall even for Anet. Something they may try time and again to build off of, only to come to a realization that it may very well be the best work they ever did - a timeless creation.

It stands to reason then, that none of the dlc released since the has no where near the quality and ambition of Magumma. Players beg for drip fed content only to find more of the same mediocrity ever since crystal desert which - was not a bad expansion by any means from a GAMEPLAY perspective. But lacked tremendously in the area Magumma masterfully executed - The Art

 

 

[Cuks.8241]

There are 2 main reasons I kept playing this game. Great pvp combat mechanics and keeping the hopes up we get another Hot.

[Rando Khan.3705]

This is something I've pondered as well, and an opinion I'm in agreement with. Verdant Brink in particular is honestly mind-blowing -- I still remember playing through it for the first time like it was yesterday.

You touched on how great the art design is, which it definitely is, but it was the intricacy of the map design that I found fascinating, particularly for an MMO. The verticality and layering made it feel like a hostile environment regardless of the enemies -- traversal was difficult, but rewarding. I also think it was really unique how they incorporated some Metroidvania-like design with the masteries, where you could later access areas that you may not have been able to reach previously. Verdant Brink really is one of the few examples I can think of where the environmental storytelling and gameplay are so cohesively informed by the broader narrative beats, that it feels like one cohesive package. 

There have been times where I agree that it has felt like Anet were at the top of the pile when it came to innovating in RPGs/MMOs (the first 3 Guild Wars games come to mind for me), and I think HoT was such a time as well. 

While I do think Anet still put put out a good product, another factor to take into account is how many senior staff have left/were laid off over the years. When individuals with years of institutional knowledge leave a studio, often times they simply can't be replaced. 

 

Edited April 7 by Rando Khan.3705

[Zohane.7208]

2 hours ago, Invoker.5462 said:

This is a wholesome art/gameplay-relationship and not one of progression, guilds, ect. In other words, an objective take whilst disregarding the burdened bloat of RPG elements.

Magumma is the 1st -Wonder of the gameworld- to exist. At a time when people raved about the new zelda or God of War, I'd often wonder how they'd react to Magumma. Taking into account this area runs butter smooth on an MMORPG server with hundreds of players, the gameplay-art relationship is without compromise - almost as if the artist, game designer and software dev were the same person. Indicative of a team working in perfect unison to create something the likes which has still to this day not been challenged by any other gaming company.

That magic, however, seems to have been a one-off, one time thing. Perhaps this was the pre-covid, pre trump Era when Anet saw its team blossom to something beyond a buisness model, and into the realm of world leading game game/art development.

And I believe that since then, due to the turbulence of the world- as we see quality drop across the board (not just in gaming) so too will this golden age of Anet remain as such, a measurable period of excellence, creativity and teamwork the likes the world may never see again.

While still unmatched (not even close) by anyone else in the industry. Magumma stands tall even for Anet. Something they may try time and again to build off of, only to come to a realization that it may very well be the best work they ever did - a timeless creation.

It stands to reason then, that none of the dlc released since the has no where near the quality and ambition of Magumma. Players beg for drip fed content only to find more of the same mediocrity ever since crystal desert which - was not a bad expansion by any means from a GAMEPLAY perspective. But lacked tremendously in the area Magumma masterfully executed - The Art

 

 

Which Maguuma do you refer to? There's Maguuma Jungle, Maguuma Wastes, Heart of Maguuma, and Horn of Maguuma - all vastly different

[Fueki.4753]

I prefer the Crystal Desert over Heart of Maguuma.

[Gehenna.3625]

9 minutes ago, Zohane.7208 said:

Which Maguuma do you refer to? There's Maguuma Jungle, Maguuma Wastes, Heart of Maguuma, and Horn of Maguuma - all vastly different

I think they're talking about HoT as a whole, since they're talking about pre-trump times (HoT was released in 2015).

I hated HoT when I first started playing it, but in the meantime I've grown fonder and fonder of HoT and I'm now of the opinion that it's the best expansion for this game, particularly because it has great replay value for me.

[Cuks.8241]

13 minutes ago, Rando Khan.3705 said:

You touched on how great the art design is, which it definitely is, but it was the intricacy of the map design that I found fascinating, particularly for an MMO.  It's one of the few examples I can think of where the environmental storytelling and gameplay are so cohesively informed by the broader narrative beats, that it feels like one cohesive package. 

Everything just ties together into one coherent journey. It's like music where you just know that it was composed from the hearth and with a certain artistic vision and not to fit some marketing or genre established or any outside parameters. The differences might be in the small details but that's just what makes it good. 

It's the same with Hot. There were no compromises. For me it's the best expansion, worlds in mmorpgs I ever played by a mile and one of the best in gaming in general.

I feel both vanilla and Crystal Desert were close, done with love and vision. But Hot is just a step beyond, maybe everything just clicked there. And lately we're more and more into ticking checkboxes, staying within some market parameters and cramming stuff in because there's a checkbox and needs to be crammed in regardless of the overall vision and design.

[Gehenna.3625]

2 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I feel both vanilla and Crystal Desert were close, done with love and vision. But Hot is just a step beyond, maybe everything just clicked there. And lately we're more and more into ticking checkboxes, staying within some market parameters and cramming stuff in because there's a checkbox and needs to be crammed in regardless of the overall vision and design.

I feel the same, though the Crystal Desert doesn't have as much replay value for me. PoF doesn't have anything for me to go for after I got the mounts and to just go there for fun, the aggro range of the mobs there is just really annoying and killing my fun. If they did something about that, honestly, I would spend more time there just for fun. Also I don't find the metas as fun as those in HoT maps but I don't necessarily need metas to have fun in maps.

As for the artwork, well, that is actually a really subjective thing. One thing that I can mention (imo) about the Crystal Desert, though, is that it lacks this magical, evocative atmosphere like it did in GW1 (Same with EoD for that matter). The artwork of GW2 is technically a step up from GW1 and surely has more detail and intricacy to it, but for me GW1 maps had more feeling to it. I really wish that GW2 had kept that aspect of the artwork in it.

[Zok.4956]

3 hours ago, Invoker.5462 said:

It stands to reason then, that none of the dlc released since the has no where near the quality and ambition of Magumma. Players beg for drip fed content only to find more of the same mediocrity ever since crystal desert which - was not a bad expansion by any means from a GAMEPLAY perspective. But lacked tremendously in the area Magumma masterfully executed - The Art

I have to agree and disagree. If you look at the artistic design of the maps, HoT and PoF are on the same high level and both are the best in this respect that Anet has achieved so far.  In this regard, I would count both of them as part of the “golden age” of GW2.

I also think that the gameplay in HoT maps fit the topic perfectly. But at the time of release it was unfortunately too steep an increase in difficulty for most open world players. Which is why Anet chose a different direction for PoF. And you shouldn't forget that the HoT of today is no longer the HoT of the release.

However, if you look at the entire HoT expansion and all game modes, there were a lot of problems (I'm just saying WvW and the Desert Borderland) and bugs back then.

 

[Danikat.8537]

I think the big reason they didn't use a similar map design in PoF (and beyond) is that at the time HoT was not well recieved and it's only in retrospect that some players have decided it's the best part of the game (possibly helped by having mounts to make navigating easier?). They had to make the enemies easier, make it quicker to unlock elite specs, people still call the maps mazes and recommend putting off map completion until you've got at least the springer and ideally a flying mount, and complain about map completion and hero challenges being locked behind the meta events.

Don't get me wrong, I love the HoT maps, but that was an unpopular opinion around here for years.

Edited April 7 by Danikat.8537

[Noidea Incognito.9607]

My two cents on the matter;

The bigger the ambition, the bigger the burden to balance it all out. Gw1 and Gw2 might share similarities, but its an entirely different beast alltogether. From playing all those Expansions(excluding SotO) i can tell; they have equal passion and dedication behind it in terms of consistent Design, systems, storytelling, etc). I can be wrong but each expansion also seems to be like individual live experiments. I dont mean this negative or something; more like; Anet is trying things out/finding the sweet spot? Learning lessons from those experiments and trying to gather Elements from those Expansions to later effectively implement them later down the line in a new expansion or new IP; as in a Journey towards a much better game. idk... maybe i'm thinking too farfetched behind reasoning for design choices o7

I have only one big concern; that they might have trouble picking up where EoD ended. Core toward EoD was the perfect storm in terms of Story progression wich is automaticly tied to the gamemaps, etc it came with. Its either gonna be Standalone Expansion stories from this point forward or they must have something up their sleeves we dont know about.

I can understand the response about HoT though; it being awesome and breathe of fresh air when it came out. I think the same applied to the creators when they came up with the idea of HoT. "lets take it a step up from the Core game people!" But again the quality of the Expansions that came after it still seems consistent, but they have a totally different vibe... maybe thats it; the athmosphere/vibe that spoke to ya. I still think SotO has the same dedication and quality behind it; but only time will tell if its a standalone story or the beginning of a new epic saga.

 

Edited April 7 by Noidea Incognito.9607

[Gop.8713]

For me it's ibs through dw. Possibly recency bias since I'm moving a toon through bjora rn but to me this is the last time they tried something really unique, while the story was something more than an obstacle to click through. Obv it went in the toilet with champions, and while parts of EoD were gorgeous there hasn't been anything since dw that I would voluntarily return to purely for its own sake . . .

[Xelqypla.6817]

It's just complex navigation along with far more difficult encounters. I am pretty sure it's more popular to talk about than it is for people to play it.

People enjoy the desert far more due to the less convoluted way to get around the map. Cantha has dramatic differences between the areas. SotO has the grand scale magical feeling. Each brings something interesting to the table.

When I am farming or looking for something specific, HoT maps are usually my last choice.

[Chyro.1462]

Are we talking about the horn of maguuma or the heart of maguuma?

[Randulf.7614]

5 hours ago, Invoker.5462 said:

This is a wholesome art/gameplay-relationship and not one of progression, guilds, ect. In other words, an objective take whilst disregarding the burdened bloat of RPG elements.

Magumma is the 1st -Wonder of the gameworld- to exist. At a time when people raved about the new zelda or God of War, I'd often wonder how they'd react to Magumma. Taking into account this area runs butter smooth on an MMORPG server with hundreds of players, the gameplay-art relationship is without compromise - almost as if the artist, game designer and software dev were the same person. Indicative of a team working in perfect unison to create something the likes which has still to this day not been challenged by any other gaming company.

That magic, however, seems to have been a one-off, one time thing. Perhaps this was the pre-covid, pre trump Era when Anet saw its team blossom to something beyond a buisness model, and into the realm of world leading game game/art development.

And I believe that since then, due to the turbulence of the world- as we see quality drop across the board (not just in gaming) so too will this golden age of Anet remain as such, a measurable period of excellence, creativity and teamwork the likes the world may never see again.

While still unmatched (not even close) by anyone else in the industry. Magumma stands tall even for Anet. Something they may try time and again to build off of, only to come to a realization that it may very well be the best work they ever did - a timeless creation.

It stands to reason then, that none of the dlc released since the has no where near the quality and ambition of Magumma. Players beg for drip fed content only to find more of the same mediocrity ever since crystal desert which - was not a bad expansion by any means from a GAMEPLAY perspective. But lacked tremendously in the area Magumma masterfully executed - The Art

 

 

Hot was great and I loved it and I miss the feeling of innovative gameplay it brought. But it was unfinished, cut short and had the weakest story of all four expacs. Let’s not hold it on a pedestal of being greatest expac of any mmo either when Shadowlands for Anarchy Online or Moria for Lotro came before it and were arguably better for the sheer volume of content and changes they brought to their base games.

HoT could have been perfect, but it fell short. Its biggest draws were the innovative new features (masteries, gliding, elites), the unique maps and replayability. 
 

I do agree it stands out, but i can’t imagine redefining the game again. PoF already had the bigger impact than even HoT did with mounts and the skyscale trivialised maps a lot. Maybe underground with lizard mounts and spelunking, but otherwise it’s really going to be more of what’s gone before 

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Xelqypla.6817 said:

It's just complex navigation along with far more difficult encounters. I am pretty sure it's more popular to talk about than it is for people to play it.

People enjoy the desert far more due to the less convoluted way to get around the map. Cantha has dramatic differences between the areas. SotO has the grand scale magical feeling. Each brings something interesting to the table.

When I am farming or looking for something specific, HoT maps are usually my last choice.

This is factually wrong.  I don't get this entire tendency of people to generalize saying why people do what they do. You may like to talk about HoT more than play it. I've completed all four maps of HoT more than I've completed any other map in the game.  I think I've completed Verdant Brink on over 40 characters, and I wouldn't mind doing more.

I'm an outlier as I don't like AB as much as the other zones, but they're all fantastic and I enjoy playing them.  And when I go to HoT, I see more people in the open world there, going around doing things than I do in say PoF.  Just my experience, but I wish people would stop generalizing about what people feel or want. Tell us what you like, sure. But if you're trying to speak for me, you're doing a pretty bad job.

[Poormany.4507]

2 hours ago, Chyro.1462 said:

Are we talking about the horn of maguuma or the heart of maguuma?

Horn of Maguuma is just paid Living World, maps are nowhere near other expac levels... 😉

[Bladestrom.6425]

2 hours ago, Xelqypla.6817 said:

It's just complex navigation along with far more difficult encounters. I am pretty sure it's more popular to talk about than it is for people to play it.

People enjoy the desert far more due to the less convoluted way to get around the map. Cantha has dramatic differences between the areas. SotO has the grand scale magical feeling. Each brings something interesting to the table.

When I am farming or looking for something specific, HoT maps are usually my last choice.

Its not 'Just' , The reason the HOT maps are wonderful in terms of  both the art and the complex layering, designing that was no mean feat I would guess.   Hot maps are interesting for those that love exploration and something other than a big flat map with a few valleys and caves. 

Farming is not necessarily a reason to visit a map, especially with an  older with older Meta.  That doesn't make it a bad design, it just means players are consuming other more recent content, or for farmers, farming the most cost efficient map based on current currencies and demand.

[Ashantara.8731]

15 minutes ago, Poormany.4507 said:

Horn of Maguuma is just paid Living World, maps are nowhere near other expac levels... 😉

Inner Nayos is not even near Living World quality. It's just bad (boring, uninspired, grindy).

8 hours ago, Invoker.5462 said:

I remain confident in ANET.

Based on what?

[Leger.3724]

6 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I prefer the Crystal Desert over Heart of Maguuma.

This is the silent majority Arena Net should listen to extremely carefully.

The game's combat and mastery system became a nightmare in Heart of Thorns and tons, tons, tons of people dropped the game. It started to recover with the skyscale and end of dragons. Adding a second path to skyscale in Secrets of the Obscure and Legendary open world pve armor also helped sell a barebones expansion.

People will focus on Path of Fire not selling as well but the reality is Path of Fire sold poorly because everyone had flashbacks to Heart of Thorns.

End of Dragons should be the expansion Arena Net thinks about as they design Guild Wars 3. Core Tyria is what they should be thinking of when designing Guild Wars 3. That - and popular video games of today have extremely simple combat mechanics. Simple is better. Simple can allow for skill differentiation and complexity. Having players pick roles is not a bad thing either, whether that's traditional tank/dps/healer or Guild Wars 1 protection monks/support/frontline dps or it's league of legends - bruiser, caster, AD damage, support and jungler. Defined roles is a good thing.

Edited April 7 by Leger.3724

[Xelqypla.6817]

2 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

This is factually wrong.  I don't get this entire tendency of people to generalize saying why people do what they do. You may like to talk about HoT more than play it. I've completed all four maps of HoT more than I've completed any other map in the game.  I think I've completed Verdant Brink on over 40 characters, and I wouldn't mind doing more.

I'm an outlier as I don't like AB as much as the other zones, but they're all fantastic and I enjoy playing them.  And when I go to HoT, I see more people in the open world there, going around doing things than I do in say PoF.  Just my experience, but I wish people would stop generalizing about what people feel or want. Tell us what you like, sure. But if you're trying to speak for me, you're doing a pretty bad job.

 

I see people saying they like HoT. I don't see people playing HoT. Players dropped like flies when HoT hit. Each expansion afterward had far less complex map navigation as well as easier enemies. I'm just calling it as I see it.

1 hour ago, Bladestrom.6425 said:

Its not 'Just' , The reason the HOT maps are wonderful in terms of  both the art and the complex layering, designing that was no mean feat I would guess.   Hot maps are interesting for those that love exploration and something other than a big flat map with a few valleys and caves. 

Farming is not necessarily a reason to visit a map, especially with an  older with older Meta.  That doesn't make it a bad design, it just means players are consuming other more recent content, or for farmers, farming the most cost efficient map based on current currencies and demand.

It IS 'just' for a rather large group of people.

I'm not saying you can't enjoy it. I'm just saying there are plenty of us who just find it a pain.

My farming is generally hopping around to various maps spread across expansions/living world depending on what I feel like doing. Less gold per hour, but far less burnout as well. There are plenty of reasons to revisit HoT, but I avoid it due to the complexity of navigating and the enemies. I highly doubt I am alone on any of this.

You guys can praise HoT to the heavens, I won't stop you. Just pointing out the "1st -wonder of the game world" probably isn't a popular viewpoint.

[Zok.4956]

42 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

This is the silent majority Arena Net should listen to extremely carefully.

No, not really. To both of your statemens. 

 

42 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

The game's combat and mastery system became a nightmare in Heart of Thorns and tons, tons, tons of people dropped the game

The game's combat system was not a nightmare and still isn't. Only Anets lack of ability to balance the classes/combat properly can be seen as a nightmare.

The mastery system is a metroidvania style progression system way better than just increasing the max level. With the Masteries, Anet introduced a new system at HoT, which all subsequent expansions use as a basis to this day and to date Anet has not created anything that is better.

 

53 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

It started to recover with the skyscale and end of dragons. Adding a second path to skyscale in Secrets of the Obscure

Ok, I understand, you didn't like how players got the Skyscale before SotO. But that doesn't mean that the path to get there was bad.  

However, with your statement you are skipping a few years. The recovery had already taken place with PoF. Then came a crash (in the studio, which of course affected game development and the game) due to the large amount of developer capacity being withdrawn from GW2 and to other games whose development was later stopped (mass layoffs at the studio), then the recovery at the beginning the saga (IBS), then the crash because the saga was canceled to develop EoD, then the recovery because all games (not just GW2) had an immense influx of players due to Covid.

 

1 hour ago, Leger.3724 said:

Legendary open world pve armor also helped sell a barebones expansion.

I agree. However, I only see this as a simple, last resort to boost sales. Because you can't just repeat the introduction of legy open world armor to boost sales and that has nothing to do with the artistic quality of the game or maps.

 

1 hour ago, Leger.3724 said:

End of Dragons should be the expansion Arena Net thinks about as they design Guild Wars 3.

Please no.  City maps where the city feels empty and lifeless and where you see far too few other players (that was already the case when EOD was released). Maps where you could sometimes see from the graphic assets how things were messed up unfinished, etc. etc. Game mechanics and ideas where there was obviously far too little exchange and communication between the different departments/devs (it was the time of home office because of Covid) and where several things should have gone back to the drawing board again. And fishing (instead of setting a "best of" industry standard here, like Anet did with the mounts in PoF) is just a cheap copy of Stardew Valley).  etc. etc. 

 

[Leger.3724]

2 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

No, not really. To both of your statemens. 

 

Basically Arena Net is not going to listen to a factually, financially inaccurate take like yours. You can say "no, not really" all you want. The sales are the sales.

[Zok.4956]

26 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

Basically Arena Net is not going to listen to a factually, financially inaccurate take like yours. You can say "no, not really" all you want. The sales are the sales.

news flash: This discussion is not about sales. If you want to talk about sales there are threads like 

or  

or 

or several of the older threads about earnings. 

Some of these also provide more precise details about the fluctuations in sales and what possible causes they could have had. Hint: It's not as black and white as you seem to want to portray it.

 

Edited April 7 by Zok.4956

[coffeemakesmecreative.4291]

I'm with you.  Love HoT. PoF was not my favorite but, it was fine.  With PoF it's more I really like some maps, don't like others.  I felt a lot about EoD the same I did with PoF, there are a couple maps I adore, the story was fine for me.  I would have liked to see it expanded because I thought it could have gone into some really interesting directions.  SOTO came out, I had pre ordered it, and I have yet to find anything, even, one, good thing about it.  The story is awful, the maps are horrible, the events, meh.  I was in a discussion with someone just a couple of days ago, about a new player in the game and what expansions to buy from the website.  I didn't hesitate, if you can afford it, get everything BUT...do not buy soto.