I remain confident in ANET. But magumma is likely their peak of excellence

[Gwynnion.7364]

7 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

As for HoT itself, in that sense it was a matter of listening to the wrong part of the player base and taking things too far.

There definitely needed to be a difficulty bump from core Tyria, which was absurdly easy most of the time, but it's like they took all the most annoying and powerful enemy abilities and gave them to basically everything in HoT.  It was just too much, especially using a core build, and was definitely a case of listening to a very specific set of players who demanded it be hard.  They obviously dialed it back for PoF but there are still issues like infinite aggro range.  (And those harpies.) 

But I think GW2 has been swerving between extremes for a long time as they can't decide which players it's for or even what release model they want to use.  They haven't wanted to invest HoT / PoF levels of time and money into the game ever since either, which I can kind of understand for a 12-year-old game.  But I think it's clear big expansions are what sell, which is why SOTO was marketed as one even though it's kinda not.

[AliamRationem.5172]

30 minutes ago, QueenKeriti.5176 said:

That's part of what made initial-HoT suck for me. It was an amazing cinematic, and you step into a stunning zone that looks like disaster truly struck the Pact, and I was hella excited for HoT + story...and then you're hardcore gatekept from so much of the stuff going on in the zone + unable to continue story, especially with how garbage XP gain was from long, drawn out events that you couldn't leave because the participation timer was BRUTAL on events back then + how difficult it was to get MPs when you eventually did manage to get the XP needed. 😞

(Plus the roving packs of pocket raptors right at the beginning was ROUGH, lmao. Go right from initial WP? Pocket raptors. Left? Pocket raptors. Drop to the ground and barely survive? Pocket raptors. Ravine you need to get something in? How about 3 packs of pocket raptors in an enclosed space? 🙂Good luck and stay safe, Commander!)

 

I don't see the XP or mastery experience as an issue.  You can walk on foot to every waypoint as well as accessing the next zone.  There are plenty of mastery points available along the way and unlocking gliding, updrafts, and bounce mushrooms will allow you to access the vast majority of every HoT map.  I also didn't mind the combat.  

Of course that's just me.  I wasn't in any rush.  I just enjoyed exploring the zone and unlocking the initial masteries felt impactful.  It only became an issue due to the use of pointless filler masteries.  Unlocking poison mastery, for instance, just felt like the game wasting my time.

[fourhim.3584]

I don't often reply, but this thread caught my eye.  As I always say as a disclaimer, 10 year Vet here but still totally casual button mashing PVE only guy.

HOT literally ALMOST made me quit the game when it first came out.  New players today just don't get it, especially if they get the whole package and do HOT LAST (as my wife recently did, for reasons I will explain soon.)  A player with mounts (especially skyscale) coming into HOT for the first time, can't imagine how hard it once was.  I had a basic glider on my back, that didn't have a "go faster" option, couldn't use those beautiful updrafts, couldn't stealth, couldn't get a jade bot boost to go higher, etc.  I saw these wonderful bouncing mushrooms to get to higher spots, but couldn't use them.  I saw these Nuhoch Wallow tunnels, but couldn't use them.  I wanted to get to those Hero Points to try out the new specializations, but I can't solo champions.  I coveted those Mastery Points, but they are impossible to get to until I get, uhh, more Mastery points?  There's all these big enemies with blue bars under their health bars - what's that all about?  CC?  Oh....OK.  Oh, and that cute frog or mushroom over there will 2 shot kill you, or stun-lock you, or bounce you around like a pinball, or be jumping/rolling all over the place so you can't melee them, or heap 3+ conditions on you at one time, etc.  And that last POI you are trying to find in Tangled Depths - good luck with that.  Keep in mind that for me previously, Cursed Shore was my "end game content".  (Those big wandering giants used to kill me, and now they seem like a joke - even though I'm still "level 80")

Have "we casuals" forgotten what that was like?  If ANET had not done what they did to make things a little easier I would not be here today, and they would have several hundred dollars less from my family (mostly to get fun skins for our mounts, which POF added).  Add to this the fact that many casuals who were brave enough to dare post in the forums were often told to just "git good", or that "well duh, its end of game content!" from the elite level players who were enjoying their fever dream, and it was frankly hard to take.

OK, that's the bad part.  The GOOD part were helpful players like Vayne and others who took those of us who were willing, by the hand, and SHOWED us how to get better at these games.  Those patient players ARE the reason I am still here (and ANET making it a little easier).  Players running "HP Trains" through Verdant Brink and every other zone, and stuff like that.  Joining a guild, IF they were friendly to casuals (not all of them were), was a big help.  Frankly reading more in the forums helped a lot, and the vast amount of quality Youtube videos for casuals that are out there now are invaluable.  

So NOW when I take my new Condi Virtuoso, with a maxed skyscale and updraft gliding (compliments of SOTO), to HOT, I rarely die.  But so much of this is because of content added AFTER HOT (as others have observed).  The problem now with "level 80" is "Level 80 WHERE?"  Because there's no way in which all things are equal for "level 80 content".

Which brings me to my wife.  Even though she bought the whole package together a year ago.  My gamer son and I INSISTED that she NOT use the Level 80 boost, but rather advance 1-80 the "old-fashioned way", learning the game a little at a time the same way we did.  Once at 80, it was POF to get the mounts (my son got her the skyscale), EOD (to get the specialization), then SOTO to get updraft gliding for the Skyscale, then FINALLY HOT.  (Having a Skyscale that can use updrafts in HOT is just a night and day difference.)  And even with all these advancements, we still hate Tangled Depths (which, by the way, you can't zone complete without that poison mastery - ugh).

From level design, yeah HOT is probably on some level of genius.  But fun for a casual level 80 player like me, and then even moreso for my wife, not until I can come in "buffed" first.

Edited April 10 by fourhim.3584

[RoseofGilead.8907]

14 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I don't see the XP or mastery experience as an issue.  You can walk on foot to every waypoint as well as accessing the next zone.  There are plenty of mastery points available along the way and unlocking gliding, updrafts, and bounce mushrooms will allow you to access the vast majority of every HoT map.  I also didn't mind the combat.  

Of course that's just me.  I wasn't in any rush.  I just enjoyed exploring the zone and unlocking the initial masteries felt impactful.  It only became an issue due to the use of pointless filler masteries.  Unlocking poison mastery, for instance, just felt like the game wasting my time.

Yes, you could walk on foot to get to most WPs and map exits. But you needed many masteries (poison, updrafts, lean gliding, bouncing mushrooms) to get to specific hero points, events, and POIs. And navigating TD on my first character or two, with just a few masteries done, was a nightmare.

[AliamRationem.5172]

Just now, RoseofGilead.8907 said:

Yes, you could walk on foot to get to most WPs and map exits. But you needed many masteries (poison, updrafts, lean gliding, bouncing mushrooms) to get to specific hero points, events, and POIs. And navigating TD on my first character or two, with just a few masteries done, was a nightmare.

It was a nightmare because you didn't know your way around.  Like all the other maps, TD only requires updrafts and bounce mushrooms to access nearly the entire map.  You can't full map complete, but it's no barrier to participating in most events and unlocking most objectives.  That's just the reality.

[Gwynnion.7364]

I think it's good there's a range of expansion content to choose from now so new 80s can either tackle Maguuma straight off in hard mode or put it off as "the true endgame" after doing other expansions.  That said, I think GW2 has actually gone too far towards making things easy with EoD and SOTO.  I remember being confused by all the jade bot power-ups in Cantha because most mobs just weren't that hard to begin with?  And SOTO seems to have exchanged difficulty for tedium, as Kryptis are just damage sponges aside from the occasional champion with All the Conditions or insta-kill mechanics requiring special skills to avoid.  Even convergences are easier than I expected, but that's a function of making them essentially mandatory for making Obsidian Armor.

Like I said, I don't think Anet has a coherent vision for the game and they want to make do with as little investment as possible, but they were in a better place in the HoT / PoF era when they produced content for different kinds of players.

[Astralporing.1957]

10 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

It was a nightmare because you didn't know your way around. 

I may have been there countless times already, but i still manage to get lost in TD on occasions.

[Knighthonor.4061]

Problem that many ignored about HoT, including the community here:

1) SPvP balance went crazy bad since Elite specs were introduced.  They were suppose to be alternatives,  not full upgrades. DPS got insane like it is now with the power creep. Developers just ignored that.

2)WvW got a new map with new event, but it had a major performance bug. Instead of fixing that, they just scrapped everything but the new map. So nothing really changed. Same old same old on a boarder map at that. The main EBG stayed untouched. 

3) World Boss Train just like the Elite Queen dale champ train back in the day, grew very popular,  but this was never expanded on.  More Meta Bosses could have been added to the train 🚆 with new mechanics,  or upgrade some of the old fights and rotate them in the timer. But this wasn't done. The HoT metas were harder to organize unlike the train metas. Missed opportunity 😕. 

4) Raids as only a difficult thing.  Really developers in the MMO industry as a whole, don't understand that many people take value and interest in the larger sized PvE group content, not just for the hard-core gamers that only seek a challenge. Raids could have been their chance to change that view, but it didn't. It was the typical larger group, hard-core challenge mode. That quickly died. Strikes are a better example of what I mean when I say, keep the 10 man group size but keep the difficulty at Dungeon level. More people do Strikes than Raids for this reason.

5) Guild Guild Guild restricted features. HoT added Guild Halls and trophy system. Yet all of it was restricted to Guild ran features, which means most people never got to use the feature unless you were a top rank Guild remember or had your own Guild hall, which yall intentionally made difficult to nearly impossible to get as a Solo Guild player, like I was for most of Vanilla and even into HoT. 

6) Maps were giant Jumping Puzzles. Not a fan of Jumping Puzzles,  but this could be cool the first time traveling the map, but after that it was more frustrating than Fun. This why I recommended new players to get the maps in PoF then go back to HoT. Way more fun that way.

 

Many of these things were never really addressed in future expansions, which, by my theory,  is why the population got smaller and smaller each expansion afterwards.       

      

Honestly I am not sure the developers of Guild Wars 2 even understand this beyond the gaming coding ability.  Which makes me skeptical of a potential GW3 chance of success beyond game code and art, (which they do a great job in)

[HotDelirium.7984]

The word is compelling- the maps are dynamic and interesting. Nayos is a shadow in comparison. It's gory looking and for that it's unique but almost no depth. Is that due to resource management? Probably so I guess this is the way it is now. Still a mile long but now an inch deep...

[Ashen.2907]

I had a few issues with HoT:

1) A guildie calls out in guild chat for help with a given HP and by the time I can find my way to him he says never mind because the time he has to play has ended. I didnt mind taking my time to explore, just wandering around seeing what there was to be seen, but when a friend or guildie needs help NOW and I am half an hour away due to map design....a large portion of what I enjoy about MMOs goes out the window.

2) Similar to #1, someone calls out in map chat that X event/boss is up....and by the time I can get there it has been over for several minutes.

3) The color pallette. I am green color blind so entire maps of just the same shade of grey that run together makes it difficult to navigate or enjoy the scenery.

4) Bouncy mushrooms, etc. This is made worse in following LW seasons with the addition of floating balls of magic. If I wanted gameplay designed to mimic a Mario game I would play a Mario game. Jump on this magic mushroom to bounce into the air to pass though/capture floating balls of magic? Really? 

 

[HotDelirium.7984]

On 4/6/2024 at 10:24 PM, Invoker.5462 said:

This is a wholesome art/gameplay-relationship and not one of progression, guilds, ect. In other words, an objective take whilst disregarding the burdened bloat of RPG elements.

Magumma is the 1st -Wonder of the gameworld- to exist. At a time when people raved about the new zelda or God of War, I'd often wonder how they'd react to Magumma. Taking into account this area runs butter smooth on an MMORPG server with hundreds of players, the gameplay-art relationship is without compromise - almost as if the artist, game designer and software dev were the same person. Indicative of a team working in perfect unison to create something the likes which has still to this day not been challenged by any other gaming company.

That magic, however, seems to have been a one-off, one time thing. Perhaps this was the pre-covid, pre trump Era when Anet saw its team blossom to something beyond a buisness model, and into the realm of world leading game game/art development.

And I believe that since then, due to the turbulence of the world- as we see quality drop across the board (not just in gaming) so too will this golden age of Anet remain as such, a measurable period of excellence, creativity and teamwork the likes the world may never see again.

While still unmatched (not even close) by anyone else in the industry. Magumma stands tall even for Anet. Something they may try time and again to build off of, only to come to a realization that it may very well be the best work they ever did - a timeless creation.

It stands to reason then, that none of the dlc released since the has no where near the quality and ambition of Magumma. Players beg for drip fed content only to find more of the same mediocrity ever since crystal desert which - was not a bad expansion by any means from a GAMEPLAY perspective. But lacked tremendously in the area Magumma masterfully executed - The Art

 

 

In summary, ArenaNet- DO maps similar to the ones in Heart of Thorns and the game will prosper for a long time.

Do maps like Nayos, and you will falter significantly.

Thank you for coming to my TyriaTalk.

[HotDelirium.7984]

On 4/7/2024 at 2:19 AM, Danikat.8537 said:

I think the big reason they didn't use a similar map design in PoF (and beyond) is that at the time HoT was not well recieved and it's only in retrospect that some players have decided it's the best part of the game (possibly helped by having mounts to make navigating easier?). They had to make the enemies easier, make it quicker to unlock elite specs, people still call the maps mazes and recommend putting off map completion until you've got at least the springer and ideally a flying mount, and complain about map completion and hero challenges being locked behind the meta events.

Don't get me wrong, I love the HoT maps, but that was an unpopular opinion around here for years.

Let's be clear though- not well received because many players thought they could just steamroll the content with any build like they did with Central Tyria.

It wasn't well received not because it was a dynamic, compelling, interesting and sometimes brutal map. Were fighting an Elder dragon... of course this is supposed to be hard.

[TheGrimm.5624]

Players were asking for more challenge, HoT delivered. What players weren't ready for was changing their view of maps. Prior to HoT the idea was you fully cleared a map and then moved on, and they couldn't. I took players a lot of time to adjust to that idea. They also saw content as I can solo and now you might need a hand or change up your build. They weren't ready for that, but alot said they wanted more challenge. I agree of all so far HoT, even before being nerfed was my favorite. 

As far as WvW maps, DBL best of the BLs. But that varies server to server and region to region per the WvW subforum. 

[Fueki.4753]

24 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Players were asking for more challenge, HoT delivered.

Specifically, parts of the playerbase asked for more challenge, while others did not.

I assume the largest portion of the people being vocal about HoT being too hard were from the groups who didn't want more challenging content.

Meanwhile, other portions of those opposed to more challenging content likely just silently dropped out.

Edited April 10 by Fueki.4753

[illuminati.8453]

"I remain confident in ANET. But magumma is likely their peak of excellence"

I'm curious about what specifically instills confidence in ArenaNet for you. For many, myself included, there's a distressing lack of faith in the current team. Take, for instance, the bug in the "Broken Hero Challenge - Searing Cauldron," which has become a progression blocker for some players and remains unfixed for nearly a week. While we often joke about ArenaNet leaving bugs unresolved for years, there are moments when it feels like more than just a lack of QA testing—almost like a sense of apathy.

These incidents contribute to the growing skepticism about the team's ability to deliver timely fixes and maintain the quality of the game.

Edited April 10 by illuminati.8453

[Linken.6345]

40 minutes ago, illuminati.8453 said:

"I remain confident in ANET. But magumma is likely their peak of excellence"

I'm curious about what specifically instills confidence in ArenaNet for you. For many, myself included, there's a distressing lack of faith in the current team. Take, for instance, the bug in the "Broken Hero Challenge - Searing Cauldron," which has become a progression blocker for some players and remains unfixed for nearly a week. While we often joke about ArenaNet leaving bugs unresolved for years, there are moments when it feels like more than just a lack of QA testing—almost like a sense of apathy.

These incidents contribute to the growing skepticism about the team's ability to deliver timely fixes and maintain the quality of the game.

This is not the only time that hero point have been buged btw.

[QueenKeriti.5176]

1 hour ago, illuminati.8453 said:

"I remain confident in ANET. But magumma is likely their peak of excellence"

I'm curious about what specifically instills confidence in ArenaNet for you. For many, myself included, there's a distressing lack of faith in the current team. Take, for instance, the bug in the "Broken Hero Challenge - Searing Cauldron," which has become a progression blocker for some players and remains unfixed for nearly a week. While we often joke about ArenaNet leaving bugs unresolved for years, there are moments when it feels like more than just a lack of QA testing—almost like a sense of apathy.

These incidents contribute to the growing skepticism about the team's ability to deliver timely fixes and maintain the quality of the game.

Assuming it's the same bug as the last time the HP broke (which is a bug you do not want to remain perpetually active), and considering there's a big patch on the 16th that has SAB, if the fix is ready, it will likely be released then.

 

[Sindust.7059]

Verdant Brink is a masterpiece. Tangled Depths on the other hand is pure torture unless you have a mount with which you can skip the mobs as you try to figure out the maze.

One of the reasons why Verdant Brink was so fun even before mounts was because getting around was a puzzle the pieces of which you could all easily see, you just had to put them together. There was more than one way to do it, and while it was not trivial to avoid combat as you travel, you still could with some creative jumps and glides. And it wasn't just some hidden hole in the ground that you had to guess where it would take you to (like in Tangled Depths). In Verdant Brink you can see where you are going, and if you can't quite get there, you can figure out what you're missing (i.e. a certain mastery).

[AliamRationem.5172]

44 minutes ago, Sindust.7059 said:

Verdant Brink is a masterpiece. Tangled Depths on the other hand is pure torture unless you have a mount with which you can skip the mobs as you try to figure out the maze.

One of the reasons why Verdant Brink was so fun even before mounts was because getting around was a puzzle the pieces of which you could all easily see, you just had to put them together. There was more than one way to do it, and while it was not trivial to avoid combat as you travel, you still could with some creative jumps and glides. And it wasn't just some hidden hole in the ground that you had to guess where it would take you to (like in Tangled Depths). In Verdant Brink you can see where you are going, and if you can't quite get there, you can figure out what you're missing (i.e. a certain mastery).

Is it really that frustrating to just look around instead of trying to figure out how to make a straight line from A to B on a map?  It should be pretty obvious within minutes of exploring Tangled Depths that you just can't do that.  But the moment you stop trying and use your eyes, you start finding things.  Why is that updraft there?  Why are there enemies over on that random ledge?  Where does that cave entrance lead?  Is there something in this pool of water?  I think what they did there was really great and underappreciated.

[Sindust.7059]

21 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Is it really that frustrating to just look around instead of trying to figure out how to make a straight line from A to B on a map?  It should be pretty obvious within minutes of exploring Tangled Depths that you just can't do that.  But the moment you stop trying and use your eyes, you start finding things.  Why is that updraft there?  Why are there enemies over on that random ledge?  Where does that cave entrance lead?  Is there something in this pool of water?  I think what they did there was really great and underappreciated.

You start finding things alright. Just not the things that you need at that moment. A hole that you found with your eyes can take you to the other side of the map instead of the HP/PoI/MP that you are apparently standing right next to.

What you need the most in Tangled Depths is memory. Your eyes will more often deceive you than take you where you need to go.

[ugrakarma.9416]

14 hours ago, nosleepdemon.1368 said:

Verdant Brink was the absolute pinnacle of map and story mechanics brought together in my opinion. It was like the centre-piece of a well thought out album. Plenty of setup went into what ultimately became a hideous tactical error that the player was thrust into the middle of. It was perfect, and the difficulty spike made the situation feel much more believable and foreboding. I honestly loved HoT, the characters individually were mostly awful (as usual until LS3/4/SotO) but the environment, lore and the general ‘feel’ was spot on. Bonus points for playing a Sylvari, that was a neat touch too. PoF was a step back, there were some nice set pieces but the genius of say, Tangled Depths’s lanes was well and truly out the door. The story really only got entertaining in the Living Story, and only when Joko was present (a lot like Canuck). Still, it was miles better than the utter slop that was EoD. I actually just skipped that expansion after a couple of hours. SotO is much better, especially the characters!

Its seems most Anet failures is linked when they try too rely on nostalgia card(POF-Balthazar, Eod-Cantha). 

[ugrakarma.9416]

37 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Is it really that frustrating to just look around instead of trying to figure out how to make a straight line from A to B on a map?  It should be pretty obvious within minutes of exploring Tangled Depths that you just can't do that.  But the moment you stop trying and use your eyes, you start finding things.  Why is that updraft there?  Why are there enemies over on that random ledge?  Where does that cave entrance lead?  Is there something in this pool of water?  I think what they did there was really great and underappreciated.

Also Tangled Depths follow some "logic", its have 4 lanes with a format close to a "X". with center on leyline waypoint. each "arm" of the "X" have a surface area and a underground area(acessible from leyline waypoint).

the underground area is where meta take place.,the surface area is where the lanes events chains take place.

Edited April 11 by ugrakarma.9416

[ugrakarma.9416]

Aesthetically the maps are masterpiece, you never feel boed there(can become bored for other things, but never to look at same place).

I did countless AB meta on the multimap era, for months, never get bored.

My only critisize is that they dont look much a jungle, compare to the echovald wilds. Verdant Brink soil texture reutilize silverwastes color pallete, with that 'dry' color.

The another sin of GW2, too much time in deserts:

- the content drought make silverwastes a main meta for ages,

- later HoT that utilize SW soil textures(that dry/orange colour)...

- a brief relief of deserts on LS3. 

- back to desert again in POF.

- LS4 more deserts again.

[kharmin.7683]

13 hours ago, Gwynnion.7364 said:

There definitely needed to be a difficulty bump from core Tyria, which was absurdly easy most of the time

 

From what I recall, that was Orr, but even Orr ended up getting nerfed well before the idea of an expansion was being tossed about.

[TheGrimm.5624]

11 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Specifically, parts of the playerbase asked for more challenge, while others did not.

I assume the largest portion of the people being vocal about HoT being too hard were from the groups who didn't want more challenging content.

Meanwhile, other portions of those opposed to more challenging content likely just silently dropped out.

Agree. I do know as a WvW player that was also PvX that without more challenge there was less reasons to PvE since why? HoT was a great addition. More challenging content draws more players to either group up, or rebuild to try and solo, so it adds goals for both groups and those looking to see what they can alone. There really isn't any limits to groupsize so it doesn't limit those not looking to do the first two and allows options for the third. If they just create content that is 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 they will have an audience, but it will be limited and include bots.