PvP/WvW Skill Split Release

[Arheundel.6451]

@Kovu.7560 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 splitting Druid between PvP and WvW won't make any difference on its standing, and that goes for any other support oriented class, until you Nerf Firebrand.

Guardian in general will always be a best in slot pick until something else can share stability, cleanse conditions, and Heal. Firebrand does all of those things at an extreme level, and until you have stability sharing, cleansing, and healing from on a different class and at a comparative frequency and level, no other support will be viable in WvW.

This has never been addressed though, and with the development of Firebrand and what it indicates, it probably never will be, so nothing else will ever compete with Firebrand.

Druid in Tempest will never be competitive (again) in WvW because of this.

I dont play Tempest that much, but you cant make Druid perform the same level of support of Firebrand without removing some of his mobility or damage, otherwise, Druid would become the ultimate profession. And if you nerf FB support(really wanna nerf it even more lol?) you gotta compensate with something else, or else FB will a spec with poor damage, poor mobility and decent support, not being great at anything.

Yeah. Gotta watch out for all that damage those support Druids are putting out. >.>

~ Kovu

@Kovu.7560 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 splitting Druid between PvP and WvW won't make any difference on its standing, and that goes for any other support oriented class, until you Nerf Firebrand.

Guardian in general will always be a best in slot pick until something else can share stability, cleanse conditions, and Heal. Firebrand does all of those things at an extreme level, and until you have stability sharing, cleansing, and healing from on a different class and at a comparative frequency and level, no other support will be viable in WvW.

This has never been addressed though, and with the development of Firebrand and what it indicates, it probably never will be, so nothing else will ever compete with Firebrand.

Druid in Tempest will never be competitive (again) in WvW because of this.

I dont play Tempest that much, but you cant make Druid perform the same level of support of Firebrand without removing some of his mobility or damage, otherwise, Druid would become the ultimate profession. And if you nerf FB support(really wanna nerf it even more lol?) you gotta compensate with something else, or else FB will a spec with poor damage, poor mobility and decent support, not being great at anything.

Yeah. Gotta watch out for all that damage those support Druids are putting out. >.>

~ Kovu

The pets do all the dmg while th ranger go full healbot with multiple source of stability, reflect, stealth, knockback...if they have the jacaranda, they can do massive aoe dmg on the point...dunno why rangers are so adamant to keep druid as it is

[MrCameron.4863]

I agree with the nerfs to a few aspects of engineer, but I believe a few changes need to be made in order for these nerfs to be warranted.

Rifle

Buff rifle auto (Hip Shot) to match dragon hunter longbow auto damage.

Same stats, Hip shot critting hits very similarly to DH Longbow auto not critting. That's ridiculous. It's even worse when you also notice that DH Longbow auto also applies cripple when bouncing.Buff blunderbuss damage. (Optional: Have it apply blind)

The damage is too low compared to other ranged weapons for its cooldown. Compare it to true shot(DH LB 2), rapid fire(Ranger LB 2), or various revenant hammer skills which do more damage at 1,200+ range with cooldowns such as 6 or 4 seconds.Overcharge - Remove self knockback.

The self knockback may have been alright at launch, but it has put rifle at such a disadvantage ever since heart of thorns. It is completely unnecessary. And again, compare it to any other ranged cc skills. Why does DH LB 3, Ranger LB 4, and etc not self knock back?Shield

Magnet Shield CD reduced from 25 to 20 seconds.Static Shield CD reduced from 30 to 25 seconds.Sword

Radiant Arc CD reduced from 14 to 10 seconds.Refraction Cutter base projectiles increased from 1 to 3. Remove Tier 3 Heat projectile increase.Static Discharge Fix -Static discharge fires based on where your camera is pointing if used with a tool belt skill that is not a targeted projectile. Static discharge should be able to reliable hit your target no matter the tool belt skill. If this can not be fixed, then its damage should be increased.

Slick Shoes - Knockdown Cap Increase / Cooldown reduced -Slick shoes has been unusable ever since the change that made it only knockdown one target. The knockdown cap should be increased to two per target and have its cooldown reduced.

There are a lot more useless skills and traits I believe engineer has, but I'd rather focus on the most important things at hand. In addition to the changes noted above, the absolute most important change engineer needs is to its kits.

KITS - Notes: Holoforge damage nerfs are completely fair and justified. However it becomes an issue when engineer goes back to having NO reliable source of consistent damage. This is where kits can fix the issue.

Flamethrower

Flame Jet - Damage increase

Flame Blast - Revert to its previous previous power damage focus and increase its damage.

Smoke Vent - Cooldown reduced from 20 to 15 seconds.

Tool Kit Notes: These changes will allow toolkit to become a viable melee damage option.

Thwack(Third part of auto chain) - Cast time reduced from 1 to 3/4 second. Number of targets increased from 1 to 3.

Box of Nails - Now pulses power damage as well.

Pry Bar - Number of targets increased from 1 to 3.

Magnet Pull - This skill fails to function properly half the time. Bug Fix is needed.

Grenade Kit Notes: Grenade kit is extremely hard to hit at non melee ranges and has very low damage outside of its tool belt skill. To make it worth the difficulty of landing it, increase the damage of all its skills and also increase blast radius slightly.

Shrapnel Grenade - Increased damage. Increased blast radius

Flash Grenade - Increased damage. Increased blast radius

Freeze Grenade - Increased damage. Increased blast radius

Poison Grenade - Increased damage. Increased blast radius. Added poison field. Cooldown reduced from 25 to 20 seconds.

Final Notes: There is obviously much more that needs attention on engineer, but I believe these are the most important that are necessary in general and 100% needed if holoforge, minesweeper, and aim assisted rocket are damage are to be nerfed.

[Matteonite.6419]

As a core warrior. I'm totally cool with the balanced stance passive getting nerfed further but the problem I have is vigor being attached to the trait now we won't have any source of vigor if we dont take the passive balanced state trait. And if we take the signet of stamina to make up for that then we have no stab because zerk stance and endure pain are already musts. So basically giving warrior another source of vigor in their traits would be all I need to make warrior work optimally.

[Jinks.2057]

In regards to thief. Shadow Shot should not be touched. It takes a lot of time and practice to manage your init pool to fully utilize the skill in a fight. Please leave the initiative use to 4 and leave the damage the same. This REALLY kills d/p 1v1 capabilities especially since you gave zero other survivibility means to the profession.

Thank you

[Wildside.5298]

I must say I agree with just about everything that is proposed, My only concern is the following:

Druids are not used in WvW as a viable healer, Only Boonshare Mesmer/Firebrand Guardians. Making the changes above to Weaver, we will start seeing more which is great, but what you are trying to avoid happens to Druids. They get nerfed to the ground even harder. At this Rate, I will NEVER be able to play druid in a WvW Raid environment.

[Abelisk.4527]

"Elementalist is gonna die!""Engineer is gonna die!""Guardian is gonna die!""Necromancer is gonna die!""Ranger is gonna die!""Revenant is gonna die!""Thief is gonna die!""Warrior is gonna die!"

="Powercreep is gonna die!"

Hmmmm

[Atmaweapon.7345]

I'm pretty sure the nerf to the Explosives traitline is going make it nonviable.

Minesweeper replaces Evasive Powder Keg, so taking it after this would make dodge rolls deal have a .81 higher damage scaling over not taking it. Meanwhile Daredevil's Bounding dodger adds 1.33 scaling attack + 10% direct damage buff to their dodge.

Gutting Seeker Missile for PvP? So now builds either need to have bomb kit to utilize short fuse, or take the rather awful Big boomer trait. Nobody cares about how passive procs like work, in fact it would be much nicer for it to be a flat damage buff, or something that's not eaten or reflected by projectile hate.

Also, the balancing issue with Holosmith is the same with Scrapper, you overloaded its spec specific kit to make up for Core Engineer's shortcomings. It started with Scrapper and its hilariously overloaded Hammer weapon in HoT and with PoF, the same mistake was made by giving Engineer access to essential tools with the new Elite spec: an actual weapon swap and an up-to-date kit.

Finally, I'd like to point out a 1:1 comparison between profession utilities:

Elixir C /Engineer1/2 s cast time
40 second cooldown-Converts all conditions on you into boons

Contemplation of Purity / GuardianInstant40 second cooldown-Converts all conditions on you into boons-Breaks stun

It kind of speaks for itself how the balancing team regards the Engineer in comparison to other professions...

[whoknocks.4935]

@eley crey.2905 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@eley crey.2905 said:All the passive stuff needs to go from WvW too, preferably removed from the game all together.

Maybe, but then you have to remove all those kitten oneshot builds, otherwise they become uncontrollable, especially the ones starting from stealth will have zero counterplay whatsoever imho.

As a thief, I'd be okay with stealth being removed from the game as well.

I didn't say to remove stealth, but sometimes are exactly those passive traits that proccing let you save yourself and have a chance against those crazy oneshot builds, you can't possibly have the reflexes to avoid them if you get caught unready and that's why passive traits exist.

But I agree they are pretty lame in every other scenario, so if you remove them you have to find a way to balance those crazy builds which give you zero time to react to it.

[Americium.7182]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Americium.7182 said:

Ele

: both staff dps and aurashare support see almost no play, really need some buffs.

What tier are you in where you do not see staff dps? Tier8?Tier 1 and 2 shows numerous meteor showers on every keep wall trying to build arrow carts...

What unorganazied pugs play mean very little for balance. I don't see many decent guilds using them.2 years ago every 20+ guild raid ran 3+ eles, Now you are lucky to see one.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@Unknown.3976 said:This is a great move. Maybe the PvE balance team can work on bringing back builds that were gutted due to PvP/WvW concerns, builds like minion-master necro.Or unnerfing the bristleback, smokescale, and rock gazelle, which were all gutted because of salty PVPers.

[Klypto.1703]

As far as WvW goes with revenant to where herald and renegade are concerned we need the same kind of treatment where shades are concerned we already have the bright blinding indicators on charr summons what we need now is for them to have the ability to perform. A gust of wind right now can kill a charr summon so any of these changes I see for rev don't mean anything if the new elite spec doesn't even offer any actual gameplay to the table other than roleplaying.

The next thing to talk about is why things like the ventari tablet, the shield, and the heal thingy besides the fact charr summons suck when it comes to making a circle for the enemy to drop everything to kill you while you watch yourself painfully die as your skills that keep you on that specific spot kill you and anyone else that is near you. The tablet is just really bad design when in wvw lets keep up with the group, while dragging a tablet, as well as being a contribution to fights, and avoiding the billion knockbacks and cc to keep you from using your tablet skills. Now if there is a player that exists that can do all that then they are truly a GOD of WvW and playing rev.

So yeah I just roll my eyes at changes to rev that do not alleviate these problems because there is no counterplay out there to all the new abilities that come with other specs when rev is got so much working against them that changes like these proposed ones are pretty much meaningless.

[Pocket.2740]

Agree with the goals and definitely think these changes are going in the right direction so thanks for considering these changes and sharing them with us early for discussion.

I think you need to be more specific in the way you tweak passives as they are not all ‘equal’. E.g. Changing Burning Fire from 40 seconds to 60 seconds. This is a skill that is ineffective in the current meta already. When you are trying to increase build diversity at the same time this type of change only further forces Elementalists into running water for cleanse.

I don’t like passive traits and I hope they all end up being reworked - including Burning Fire, but don’t butcher them all now and leave us with what will be a long period of even less build diversity than we currently have.

Also please change Arcane Prowess back to Arcane Fury and its non-passive state?

[Auturgist.8256]

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:A message from the Competitive and Skills & Balance Teams:

Hi folks! The Competitive team and the Skills & Balance team have been working together closely on a future balance release that focuses almost entirely on PvP and WvW skill splits. As part of this, we wanted to switch things up and approach this release similar to how we approached the PvP sigil changes we did a while back, when we released our first draft of the proposed changes.

With this set of proposed changes, we'd like to get your thoughts and ideas on both our high level goals and how we're going about accomplishing them. You guys may bring up concerns or thoughts we didn't consider. While reviewing these changes, please consider them as a whole rather than focusing on individual classes.

We're looking forward to a productive discussion!

High Level Goals

Reduce influence of passive traits. (PvP not WvW)

• Passive skills make the game less skillful.
• The prevalence of passives is a common competitive player complaint. (PvP only)

Increase build diversity

• By decreasing the power of some of the more dominant builds, we hope to give increased viability to builds that previously were pushed out by these dominant specs. We're also increasing power levels in some targeted areas that previously were underperforming.

Reduce effectiveness of offensive instant cast skills/traits

• Instant cast spells don't give players an opportunity to respond. While we don't want to remove combos utilizing instant cast abilities, we wanted to reduce the impact they have.

Thief

Skills

• Dagger Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.8, 0.85, 1.1 to 0.6, 0.65, 1.1 (-15% overall) in PvP and WvW
• Heartseeker: Increased the power coefficients at all thresholds by 20% in PvP and WvW. The new values are as follows.
  • Above 50%: 1.0 to 1.2
  • Below 50%: 1.5 to 1.8
  • Below 25%: 2.0 to 2.4
• Sword Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.8, 0.8, 1.3 to 0.6, 0.6, 1.3 (-14% overall) in PvP and WvW
• Roll for Initiative: Increased the cooldown from 35 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Shadow Shot: Increased the initiative cost from 4 to 5 in PvP and WvW. Increased Increased the power coefficient from 1.325 to 1.8 (+36%) in PvP and WvW
• Infiltrator's Strike: Increased the power coefficient from .75 to .9 (+20%) in PvP and WvW
• Cloak and Dagger: Reduced the initiative cost from 6 to 5 in PvP and WvW
• Signet of Shadows: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Assassin's Signet: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Smoke Screen: Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Dagger Storm: Reduced the cooldown from 90 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Hide in Shadows: Increased the base healing from 5240 to 6026 (+15%) in PvP and WvW
• Skelk Venom: Increased the venom heal per hit from 965 to 1206 (+25%) in PvP and WvW

Traits

• Pulmonary Impact: Reduced the power coefficient from 2.8 to 2.0 (-29%) in PvP and WvW
• Upper Hand: Increased the cooldown from 3 seconds to 5 seconds in PvP and WvW
• Panic Strike: Increased the cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP and WvW. The WvW version of this trait will now use the PvP immobilize duration of 1.5 seconds
• Instant Reflexes: Increased the cooldown from 40 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
• Pain response: Increased the cooldown from 16 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP only
• Hard to Catch: Increased the cooldown from 45 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only

Couple comments:

1. Passive skills/traits aren't necessarily bad if they are situational/conditional. A passive skill/trait that works against all manner of threats is probably not a good idea, but one that compensates for a specific weakness, or that provides protection against something that otherwise has no counterplay is fine, especially if the decision to take it requires the player to weigh it against other skills/traits that would, for example, perhaps yield more damage or some other utility. Instant Reflexes, for instance, is one of the only things some Thieves (non-Deadeyes) have against other Thieves (Deadeyes).

That brings me to...

2. You say you want to increase build diversity, and decrease the power of some of the more dominant builds, but I don't see a single thing here addressing the absurdity of Deadeyes' burst damage from what is essentially perma-stealth (something ArenaNet has been opposed to in principle regarding the design of the Thief since the release of the game, if I'm not mistaken). How does this happen? How do you overlook this?

3. Nerfing the damage of Daggers in any way is not something you should be doing right now. If you have a real problem with one specific build that uses Daggers, you need to find out what the problem is and address that specifically, because Dagger/Dagger is fucking terrible right now -- until you can make that build viable again for PvP, Daggers need all the help they can get. Furthermore, if you then proceed to buff the damage of the single-target MH Dagger skill, I have to ask: what the fuck are you thinking? Seriously, I want to know what your reasoning is, because this shit makes no sense to me.

4. Speaking on the viability of Dagger/Dagger, the 1-second cooldown on abilities from Stealth makes attempts to Backstab incredibly frustrating, because if anything causes you to miss it, you probably do not get another chance before you leave Stealth. Someone else commented that Dagger/Dagger should be a high risk, high reward playstyle, and right now, it's most often a high risk, no reward playstyle. When Dagger/Dagger is once again viable alongside both power and condi versions of Sword/Dagger, Dagger/Pistol, Deadeyes, etc., I'll actually believe that you care about build diversity and Thieves.

5. Why are you nerfing the auto attack damage of Swords and buffing the damage to Infiltrator's Strike? Infiltrator's Strike is not used for damage; it's a gap closer with some utility. Reiterating the concern I expressed when talking about Daggers, I must admit these changes make me wonder if you actually have a reason for making them.

6. Why did you not mention Executioner? Literally, there is not a single Thief trait more passive than "Deal extra damage when your target is below the health threshold." Even Instant Reflexes and Pain Response, which you are nerfing, require some activity from players, even if it's simply recognizing when they are triggered and doing something to flee or heal before you die horribly. Where is the skill in dealing 20% more damage to targets below half health?

It's nice to read that you care about things like build diversity and making the game more skill-dependent. And I only feel slightly qualified to comment on the Thief profession because that is what I main, but man... what I read and quoted above does not fill me with a lot of hope. :/

[Idaeus.9564]

20 second cd on celestial avatar :I, you could have nerfed protection regeneration or reduce the stealth and superspeed on exit other to put druid in its place. Instead you chose to ruin the flow of the class completely.

[Americium.7182]

I hope Anet plans to achieve build diversity not only in PvP but in WvW too.Here are my thoughts on what builds could be viable in WvW with only changing some numbers (no reworks):Melee: Core AH Guardian (buff GS/Hammer power coefficients, nerf Firebrand's heal), Berserker (can't compete with Spellbreaker due to his OP elite, nerf it's duration, radius, tick frequency), Soulbeast (Buff stance radius and duration on allies), Revenant (lower energy/upkeep costs on dwarf/demon stances).Ranged: Ranger Greatbow (buff Barrage), Power Necro (buff vanilla shroud damage), Condi reaper (Deathly chill is way too weak).Backline dive: Scrapper (undo PvP related nerfs for WvW).Support: Warrior (buff vigorous shouts's healing coefficient, lower standard's cast time), Druid and Tempest (nerf Firebrand).

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Eleazar.9478 said:Looks great! But can y'all please put some uttility in ranger dagger the thing is trash tier in PVP/wvw

1) the nerf to refined toxins why? Its one of our few tools for keeping pressure on bunkers.

2)please look into adding opening strike to interact with all the grand masters, being limited to remorseless just to have synergy with our minors is pretty lame

3) as per the tether update glyph of unity still does not apply reveal, and sic em does not give any boons (just give it fury for like 3 secs for the love of god)

4) please make pack alpha effect beast skills 5% damage increase and 10% reduction on beast skills in soul beast form and bountiful hunter to aply 1.5% more damage while merged per boon.

5) fix sig of renewal in beast form

6) please look into reverting the trap and spririt changes per the old specialization update, theyre just comeplety useless out side of pve due to there lack of placement and mobility

7) for the love of the five please please please allow the beast skill traits to apply at the beginning of the beast skill cast instead of the end, any cool skill syngery is destroyed do to it happening after the cast,

• for example beastly warden and worldly impact seem like a match made in heaven but what happens instead is that you miss the impact and the taunt gets you cleaved to death.

(but freak ya anet! love the new focos, the best thing about this game is the combat so any polish and reworks to it is yessssss)

You forgot to mention. Unsplit Axe from PvP and PvE, it has more use in PvE than PvP and the buffs dont make sense in just one gamemode.

Additionally they should take a look at poison master. Its a horrible GM. An iteration of deadly chill would be nice. Just with cripple and poison instead of chill and bleed.

It would be nice if we get back throwable traps, or if we get a defensive trap trait that lays down a trap when we are disabled. Some visual cues which trap is where would be nice too.

Spirits need a complete overhaul. They should work exactly like spirit weapons, just with the difference that they apply their specific buffs for a certain duration after the activation. And make them ground targeted.

i hope this is enough stuff to keep the balance team busy until LS4 chapter 2.

[Jalal.6783]

@Gaile Gray.6029Reaper shroud drain rate needs to be looked at. It feels like i spend 70% of the time building shroud and only 30% in the shroud due to the drain rate being so high and the amount of mobility and invulnerabilities there are it waste alot of the precious shroud I have managed to built up and it feels only like a reactive tool that can be used to absorb burst as opposed to having the powerful feeling that going into reaper shroud should. The damage is good, but the drain rate feels very limiting to the point where i'm almost scared to turn on shroud for a few seconds because I am not sure when i will have an opportunity to build all the shroud lost due to the incredibly debilitating drain rate. It feels like another weapon swap. Hurry up and blow cooldowns then turn it off. I want to have that reaper feeling where I have worked so hard to build up shroud, now it is time to battle but that current state of reaper doesn't hit that mark

[Mr Godlike.6098]

After harder though i would like to suggest ONE THING in case of weaver - @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 can i ask for quickness on unravel? Just this? It shouldn't brake anything pve like...and if you really want sword weaver pushed into dps role - this could solve a lot of stuff.

[Brujeria.7536]

I strongly agree that most of the buffs to active skills should be gamewide, like mentioned earlier.

[Xca.9721]

Dead or Alive: Increased the cooldown from 30 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP only

Why nerfing an already dead spec?

[Anchoku.8142]

Creating a major split between game modes will be good for all professions. Splitting only timing numbers may be easier but I worry about how professions will feel, mechanically.

I almost wish we could have a week of no boons or conditions, only control effects, just to see how professions stack up. The Dragon Ball and other activities are inherently balanced so maybe PvP and WvW should have special arenas where skill and teamwork are more important than finding the better builds and exploiting their capabilities. Build variety and interaction will continue to grow as new specializations are released. The right answer may be to simplify, standardize, and make sure buffs, debuffs, and control effects have palpable cost for real benefit.

p.s.Drarnor and Lily have comments I liked. I hope you can nerf boon corruption rate, boon generation rate, condition application rate, passive cleanses, and passive everything else enough without actually breaking skill mechanics.

There are many who will claim they deserve the high quantity of boon spam. Please destroy any sense of boon entitlement and make both boons and conditions feel important enough to make a sacrifice for.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

@UncleDrew.1763 said:Good job completely gutting holosmith.

Engineer

Skills

• Crystal Configuration: Eclipse: The stability portion of this trait will now be applied only upon successful hits of Corona Burst

Actually i totally agree on that ... precasting corona burst was kinda BS to gain easy stab ... it will give more counterplay

[Lily.1935]

Could you guys buff the scourge back to its previous state for pve only? I haven't been able to play it with the icd and the reduced condi cleanse because it is literally a chore to play in pve. I'd like to have fun with my main again.....

[Jalal.6783]

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:I am actually extremely surprised how heavy-handed these changes are. Although I don't necessarily agree with all of them, I applaud the direction you are going in and think you did a good job with this list. Thank you for the update. I am not going to comment on other balance issues that weren't addressed because this is strictly about skill splitting.

One general critique I have, though, is how you seemed to increase cooldowns on all passive traits without actually looking at how varied their effectiveness was beforehand. So now traits like Soothing Bastion, for example, get punished with a much larger second cooldown when they weren't really ever a problem in the first place. I am okay with the cooldowns being increased as I myself am not a fan of passive defenses, however, the traits need to be more deeply evaluated and adjusted for such a big blanket change. If this is only about skill-splitting, does this mean you will also be adjusting some of these traits in all game modes to warrant the cooldown increase?I agree 100% not all passive traits were a problem. Some even were necessary such as life reap on necromancer. They already have very obvious exploitable weaknesses and this trait helped mitigate that to some degree. It was a serious consideration as whether or not i wanted to take blood magic for the more sustain or soul reaping for the more shroud generation and survivability due to the very passive trait in question. Meaning choices like this should remain in the game, even if it is a passive. All passives are not created equal. I just want to keep in tact this concept.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

they should do something about hte perma dodge of thief s/d. It is no fun to fight someone that only spam 1 skill