Toning Down Maguuma

[CrazyMinxi.6810]

@Blocki.4931 gives you a standing ovation Thank you for that extensive post! Your post and the rest of you guys have enlightened me. I found I was being unfair to GW2 because I have played tons of MMORPGs in my day but Guild Wars breaks the mold. Since making this post, I have found that tinkering with my reaper has lead to some great results and I now believe that I will have a much easier time in Maguuma (I am still going to avoid nighttime like the plague).

[Plautze.6290]

@Blocki.4931 what a great write-up!

[LucianDK.8615]

The only thing in hot that needs to be nerfed is the lava lines from the mordrem. They do far too much damage. Especially so if multiple lines fires at you.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Blocki.4931 said:tl;dr: HoT has hard hitting, telegraphed attacks that will destroy you. PoF has a dozen enemies with hard to tell, extremely hard hitting attacks that may or may not also be tied to a CC that will make you scream BS at your screen many times.

I'm gonna add here that between release of the game and heart of thorns there had been many many content updates that added much harder than the original mobs. Those that have been with the game for all that journey should've had little to no trouble getting accustomed to Heart of Thorns difficulty (and Path of Fire difficulty). The problems comes from that content being temporary and no longer available, meaning for newer players the jump from core to expansion is a bit too high.

Similar to your analysis of HoT/PoF mobs I'll provide one for those living world mobs:Young Karka: a massive ranged projectile attack that can 1-shot down players if they take it all in the face, dodge, use projectile reflects, blocking skills, CC them, lots of options to kill them easilyMordrem Thrashers: before their massive nerf when Heart of Thorns was released these bad boys were evading all attacks, unless you hit them from behind while they were spinning.Mordrem Wolves: before their massive nerf when Heart of Thorns was released these could insta-down a player if hit from behind. They also used retaliation instead of swiftness. A pack of these meant dead players if they used area of effect skillsMolten Alliance Brawler: these guys jumping around and chain CCing were probably the hardest hitting Molten Alliance mobs, even simple Veterans were hard to killToxic Alliance Krait: These guys with a projectile reflect shield and lots of condition applicationToy Princess: Remember fighting these in the open world, when you opened presents they would appear in groups of 8, then scream and down anyone with their confusion application, sadly they were replaced with skritt enemies so you can no longer fight the princess of death out in the worldTwisted Horror: These little Twisted Watchworks had the capability of knocking you down with a charge attack, then finish you off with confusion and mass damage while you were downed. Probably the worst of Scarlet's minions

Sadly, Young Karka are only available in Southsun, a place that isn't very populated so lots of players won't fight them before entering expansion areas.Also, the Mordrem were heavily nerfed when the expansion was released meaning they are no longer a threat in Dry Top and/or Silverwastes, where they used to kill players by the masses.The other mobs are either not available anymore, or are available in very specific places that most players will safely ignore anyway.

[Pifil.5193]

HoT is fine as it is, IMO. Read Blocki's post for some excellent tips on how to deal with the mobs there but essentially GW2 is a game that requires you to stay mobile so you can't just face tank like in some other MMOs, most of the time dodges aren't required, you can sidestep the big wind-up attacks and can defeat most mobs easily by circling them as you attack.

To give people a tip on how this game should be played (IMO) by default A and D are turn left and right and Q and E are strafe left and right, you should bind A and D to strafe left and right and leave turning unbound so that you turn with your mouse not the keyboard: keyboard turning will just get you killed.

[sitarskee.5738]

I did HoT maps with thief, guard and ele before PoF came out. At first I had some problems but you quickly learn your way through it and boy, is it rewarding. Now with mounts it is waaay easier and faster. Game would be too boring if it was not challenging atleast in part of it.

[Donutdude.9582]

In all honesty, I do not mind that Heart of Thorns is more challenging. It just means that you have to get creative with your builds instead of running your glassy Berserker or Viper setup.

I use either a Soldier's Guardian or a Trailblazer's Elementalist when I'm running around the Maguuma jungle. I do not often get downed nor do I struggle with the content.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"CrazyMinxi.6810" said:Just recently I got both expansions for this game and first I started PoF for the fact that I wanted the mounts for I heard that Maguuma is Hell on Tyria. And boy were they right. So I am making this thread as mainly as discussion and maybe hopefully getting the attention of ArenaNet. For I believe that the mobs are WAY too hostile (I am looking at you pocket raptors) and the EXP gain is so slow compared to PoF. What do you guys think and do you think that this can be fixed much like the underwater combat was fixed?

Give it a chance. When I first entered the jungle, I died a LOT. The enemies all seem to have some sort of murderous gimmick that makes them stand out from the swarming pocket raptors, to projectile-spamming bristlebacks, to rapid-onslaught smokescales, etc. But they can be easily managed once you familiarize yourself with their attacks and learn strategies to counter them. Unlocking masteries and elite specs and adapting your build to new challenges will help a great deal as well!

You mentioned pocket raptors. They seem pretty nasty at first. Believe me, I remember vividly! Trying to run through them and getting chased down and killed was not a lot of fun. But eventually I realized that you can either avoid that first strike (pocket raptors have a delay before attacking that makes them very predictable) or use CC/area damage to prevent some of them from attacking. Every raptor you kill/stun is less damage you take if you get hit by the assault. And since they have no health, it's feasible to take out multiple pocket raptors in a single area attack. That quickly takes the bite out of them.

Here's a little video I made in response to a similar thread awhile back. This is just my little healer ele taking a run through the canyon of pocket raptor murder.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Conncept.7638 said:

@TheMaverick.6104 said:Pocketraptors arent that bad, just make sure to use your aoe. ?

That's the entire issue with HoT, it was made difficult without any concern about interraction; it's chock full of mobs that require specific mechanics which the build or even the entire class you are playing may or

may not

have, and even mechanics that defy what the base game taught you was good play and buildcraft. And then you finally get fed up with the mob that's harassing you, change your build in a way that makes it less fun and you're not used to but gets you through the Grenth awful jungle, only for you to find another mob down the road that you need the specific mechanics you just

removed

from your build to deal with

the last mob

! HoT did a lot of good things it didn't get credit for in the end, as people are now finding in their many and varied critiques of PoF, but mob and small scale encounter design were not one of them.

I have completed every map with every class.. I fail to see the issue other than some players don't want to learn how to tackle certain things like the rappies.. draw them in close and either burst them or aoe them.. they melt like chocolate fire hoses then. Just because newer maps have mobs or groups of mobs that are more than just 1111 faceplants doesn't make it bad design or need any kind of nerf. If your struggling to solo maps, grab a friend, get a guildie or put up an LFG. Its more about the individual than the map design imo.

[Dreamy Lu.3865]

Regarding OP: I believe it is once more a matter of opinion.Personally, I find PoF by far harder. The areas are overcrowded with foes, with an aggro range having no limit, and a level of damages that gets us down in no time. In those areas, being in combat (what prevents using a mount and map travelling) is not forgiving. I simply don't go there if not with a train. Those are the only areas of the game where I don't go for casual exploration and farming.In comparison the HoT areas are - for me - way easier. Foes are bad but fairly dispatched and with a "normal" aggro range: if we run away, they break aggro. In addition, all the HoT areas have more WPs, and an "upper floor" which, combined with mushrooms, ley-lines and gliding, allows pretty safe travelling/exploring everywhere in the area. If using a mount, it becomes even easier!I also find the HoT storyline much easier than the PoF one. In HoT, I was able to solo all instances apart from the final one (I am an average player, not a good one), whereas in PoF, I struggled badly at several and needed help from friends to go through. The only exception area for me in PoF is Sandswept Isle, where finally, for first time since PoF started, I found a place where it is possible again to explore and farm in an enjoyable manner.

[Kolache.3964]

Personally, I just hate the HoT maps. I love PoF and was so happy to be able to take advantage of mounts to cheese some parts of HoT maps :)

[Sylvari.2953]

The jungle was "toned down" already (unfortunately). My characters can survive easily but they are all Celestial. I definitely don't recommend full glass cannon gear but some people can handle it. The exp gain is not slow if you do meta events. HoT maps are perfect the way they are and a lot more fun than PoF ones. Also, don't forget that this is an MMORPG. Let's not turn the whole game into a single-player snoozefest like PoF.

[thehipone.6812]

HoT is certainly tougher than core, but it is a place that should make you learn your class and get better. It promotes aggro awareness, use of projectile defense/reflect, good positioning, efficient use of dodges and heals, and perhaps most of all, the benefits of learning foe animations and attacks. Don't watch your skillbar, focus on foes to watch the animations and learn the different attacks. For an example - stuff like the Mordrem Leeching Thrasher - the tentacles under your feet can hurt if they hit you, but don't hit in melee range. If you have a gap closer (or just run up to them) you can neutralize them instantly and melee down. Learn the difference between a vile thrasher (spinny boi that you can easily range down) and enfeebling thrasher (rooty boi who is probably better to melee) and you have the edge.

Also, don't be afraid to swap out a skill, trait, or even weapon from the "meta" build. You can freely swap out of combat to add another stunbreak, condi clear, or whatever you need.

Edit: And if you're still striggling - blind. Especially AoE blind. Blind is ridiculously strong vs. PvE mobs, they never remove it and attack relatively slowly.

[costepj.5120]

I love threads like this; makes me feel like a PvE God!I don't consider myself a particularly good player and I still get confused navigating TD, but I've never really had any issue with HoT mobs. I've learned to avoid a few like veteran Smokescales when I'm just passing through an area, but mostly I can give as good as I get. It's not necessary to engage and kill everything you encounter; especially true now if you stop off in Elona and collect a few mounts.

[Kolache.3964]

@"MarshallLaw.9260" said:A small minority of less experienced players often voice their concern that the content is "too difficult" - the vast majority of the population enjoy the challenging aspect of it.

I thought the reviews/sales reflected HoT not generally being well received? Especially not by the vast majority. Was this fake news? I'm so confused these days--no sarcasm :)

[Goettel.4389]

Different strokes, I wouldn't mind them upping the difficulty (and the loots).

[maddoctor.2738]

@Kolache.3964 said:

@"MarshallLaw.9260" said:A small minority of less experienced players often voice their concern that the content is "too difficult" - the vast majority of the population enjoy the challenging aspect of it.

I thought the reviews/sales reflected HoT not generally being well received? Especially not by the vast majority. Was this fake news? I'm so confused these days--no sarcasm :)

As far as sales are concerned, the one to blame is the core game not heart of thorns. Judging by the declining revenue before Heart of Thorns was released, the still active playerbase was already shrunk too much when the expansion hit.

As for review numbers:http://www.gamerankings.com/pc/214600-guild-wars-2-path-of-fire/index.htmlhttp://www.gamerankings.com/pc/120229-guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns/index.html

or even if you prefer:http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/guild-wars-2-path-of-firehttp://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns

Pretty similar. The User score of Heart of Thorns is lower than Path of Fire but if you take some time to read some of the reviews you'll notice that navigation, map design and the way the meta used to work (participation) are top of the list for that, not the difficulty of mobs.

[Ardid.7203]

HoT is beautiful and great with the difficulty it has. It was already nerfed without necessity a couple of times. Some people has already explained the issue in the thread, with clear arguments and precise examples, so I don't need to talk anymore. Please stop trying to nerf every thing you can't faceroll.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

@CrazyMinxi.6810 said:Just recently I got both expansions for this game and first I started PoF for the fact that I wanted the mounts for I heard that Maguuma is Hell on Tyria. And boy were they right.

I think you have missed a key problem: if Maguuma is a jump in difficulty compared to core -- and in the original it had LS1 and LS2 to smooth out the difficulty jump -- then LS3, HoT, and LS4 are going to be the places that you get hit with next. Each of those steps up the smarts, and the tricks, of the enemies. Those wretched spellbreaker harpies, for example, are rather hard hitting, and require sensible and active play.

So, if you reduce the difficulty of HoT you will hit people with the same wall at LS3. Tone that down, it hits at PoF. Tone that down, it hits at LS4. These all build gradually on difficulty, and I think that the LS2 being skipped is a big contributor to how surprising it is.

I'm kind of shocked, though, that people don't report the same experience in PoF. Most of the enemies on those maps are similar to, or more advanced versions of, the HoT enemies. Jungle vines <=> sand sharks. Mordrem Sniper <=> Hookhead. The ones that don't are usually worse, looking at you forged assemblers and whatever those spinning blade floating things are.

[Pifil.5193]

@"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:I'm kind of shocked, though, that people don't report the same experience in PoF. Most of the enemies on those maps are similar to, or more advanced versions of, the HoT enemies. Jungle vines <=> sand sharks. Mordrem Sniper <=> Hookhead. The ones that don't are usually worse, looking at you forged assemblers and whatever those spinning blade floating things are.

I suspect that's because many of us "got gud" during HoT and didn't even realise it. :)

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

to be honest I have trouble believing someone would find heart of maguuma difficult compared to Path of Fire content....

you never run into those forged patrols solo or something? ;)

(the only thing I'd agree here on of maguuma being "hell" is some hero challenges being purely cancer if you happened to not be or have with you character purely build for AoE Bomb, which is no longer the case in PoF, but aside of that I'd stil lrate maguuma easier)

[Nemo.5609]

@Blocki.4931 said:Those things that root themselves in place that attack you with vines that keep spawning at your feet. I will give anybody this one, it IS rather easy to die to these and not realize that one dodge roll basically stops that attack.

I think a lot of people don't realise how the Mordrem Leeching Thrasher attacks work; they have 2 'modes':1) Root themselves in place and spam vines to nearby players - This attack has a minimum range, you will not be affected AT ALL if you stand in melee range.2) Fly up in the sky and make a big lifestealing pool underneath them - Move out of the pool so you don't heal the Thrasher and range it, it will stand there and do nothing.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@CrazyMinxi.6810 said:Just recently I got both expansions for this game and first I started PoF for the fact that I wanted the mounts for I heard that Maguuma is Hell on Tyria. And boy were they right. So I am making this thread as mainly as discussion and maybe hopefully getting the attention of ArenaNet. For I believe that the mobs are WAY too hostile (I am looking at you pocket raptors) and the EXP gain is so slow compared to PoF. What do you guys think and do you think that this can be fixed much like the underwater combat was fixed?

So first off disclosure, I prefer HoT over PoF. Though I found PoF quite pleasing to the eye I found that I rarely go back and didn't even feel the need to complete the maps. If I am PvEing I find myself in HoT or core Tyria. The full map wide events in HoT and the challenge of the mobs is more engaging and is quite replay-able. So no for me, I wouldn't tone them down.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

@Pifil.5193 said:

@"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:I'm kind of shocked, though, that people don't report the same experience in PoF. Most of the enemies on those maps are similar to, or more advanced versions of, the HoT enemies. Jungle vines <=> sand sharks. Mordrem Sniper <=> Hookhead. The ones that don't are usually worse, looking at you forged assemblers and whatever those spinning blade floating things are.

I suspect that's because many of us "got gud" during HoT and didn't even realise it. :)

Yeah, I'm thinking of the new players, rather than the, uh, classic version? ;)

I actually completely agree with you: even people who skipped LS2 and went directly from core to HoT with the accompanying difficulty brick wall have now had plenty of time to smoothly ramp up to the newest content.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

@Nemo.5609 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Those things that root themselves in place that attack you with vines that keep spawning at your feet. I will give anybody this one, it IS rather easy to die to these and not realize that one dodge roll basically stops that attack.

I think a lot of people don't realise how the Mordrem Leeching Thrasher attacks work; they have 2 'modes':1) Root themselves in place and spam vines to nearby players - This attack has a minimum range, you will not be affected AT ALL if you stand in melee range.2) Fly up in the sky and make a big lifestealing pool underneath them - Move out of the pool so you don't heal the Thrasher and range it, it will stand there and do nothing.

Yeah, all of the enemies use a fairly small, and entirely understandable set of rules. It too me until a couple months ago to learn about the vine thing, though. It's not always easy to figure this stuff out, sadly, so I'm sympathetic to people who find it equally difficult.