Hot Boy.7138 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 I made a post about this a while back, but i figured I'd give it another shot.I think we will all agree that everyone benefits from using Crowd Control. Doesn't matter if you are a condition build or a power build, utilizing CC at the right time is always advantageous. The issue I have is that condition builds benefit much more from soft CCs, such as Chill, Blinds, Cripple, Immobilize, and Weakness. These CCs are listed as conditions. Most condition builds maximize their condition duration with expertise, thus extending the length of their soft CC duration.Power builds rely on soft CC just as much as condition builds but it's much less effective with power builds because power builds naturally aren't stacking expertise on their gear. It may seem minor since it has always been this way, but I believe this gives condition builds an unfair advantage in combat simply because the duration of their soft CC is extended by their usual gear set up. I propose that soft CC be excluded from condition durations lengthened by Expertise.Soft CC and damaging conditions should be treated separately. Treating them the same is disadvantageous to power builds in general. TLDR: Soft CC shouldn't be affected by expertise. It's simply not fair to power builds. Expertise should continue to enhance the duration of damaging conditions and ONLY damaging conditions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poelala.2830 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Gotta love when Mesmer immobilizes you for 6 seconds while spamming 6k ticks worth of condi and cover on you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blocki.4931 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Only immob should be excluded from that imo, rest is mostly irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasdwer.3721 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 is there even a build in spvp that uses expertise tho? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abelisk.4527 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 @Kasdwer.3721 said:is there even a build in spvp that uses expertise tho?Scourge runs Deadshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 @Kasdwer.3721 said:is there even a build in spvp that uses expertise tho?The one that recently killed OP. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Boy.7138 Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 @Sigmoid.7082 said:@Kasdwer.3721 said:is there even a build in spvp that uses expertise tho?The one that recently killed OP. The only build i'm currently having consistent issues with at the moment are power warriors. There's no salt in this post. I'm just stating what I think would create more fair gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddbopkins.2630 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 /agree....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 Oh, I see. So now Condi is OP because it relies on "only one stat", but it's also OP because...expertise. Also, nerf ChRonomirage, please. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Boy.7138 Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 @"AliamRationem.5172" said:Oh, I see. So now Condi is OP because it relies on "only one stat", but it's also OP because...expertise. Also, nerf ChRonomirage, please. Try to stay on topic. The issue isn't damaging conditions. The issue is soft CC conditions such as slow, cripple, chill, weakness, immoblize and blind, etc. The proposition is for them not to be affected by expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 The premise of your argument is that it's unfair to power builds because they don't take expertise. Instead of making a large system change which , let's be honest, is unlikely to happen at all why not see if they will add power based amulets with expertise. Much easier solution. Else if they did your 'solution' some of the expected duration from taking expertise would get baked into the skills meaning a buff for builds that never took expertise in the first place and the potential of no longer needing the stat to taking a different amulet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rank eleven monk.9502 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 @Poelala.2830 said:Gotta love when Mesmer immobilizes you for 6 seconds while spamming 6k ticks worth of condi and cover on you...I wonder how a mesmer can immobilize you for 6 seconds. Can you please explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 @Hot Boy.7138 said:I think we will all agree that everyone benefits from using Crowd Control. . Unless you're facing a mirage, in which case crowd controls really doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 I’d prefer a power - Expertise amulet over some change that makes the system less intuitive.Having soft cc power support builds would be interesting. But I wonder how many would sacrifice a damage stat for duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bq pd.2148 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 @Hot Boy.7138 said:I made a post about this a while back, but i figured I'd give it another shot.I think we will all agree that everyone benefits from using Crowd Control. Doesn't matter if you are a condition build or a power build, utilizing CC at the right time is always advantageous. The issue I have is that condition builds benefit much more from soft CCs, such as Chill, Blinds, Cripple, Immobilize, and Weakness. These CCs are listed as conditions. Most condition builds maximize their condition duration with expertise, thus extending the length of their soft CC duration.Power builds rely on soft CC just as much as condition builds but it's much less effective with power builds because power builds naturally aren't stacking expertise on their gear. as you have realized here there is soft cc and hard cc. soft cc is mostly of longer duration so it fits to a condition build. why not improve hard cc for power builds instead of unliking all of it. for example with crit damage. if you have 250% crit damage -150% base = 100% duration added to your hard CC (in case of knockbacks/launch increased distance, not sure about pulls..). there you go each build has their own supported CC type.but ofc your suggestion would work aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbosos.2063 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 @MUDse.7623 said:@"Hot Boy.7138" said:I made a post about this a while back, but i figured I'd give it another shot.I think we will all agree that everyone benefits from using Crowd Control. Doesn't matter if you are a condition build or a power build, utilizing CC at the right time is always advantageous. The issue I have is that condition builds benefit much more from soft CCs, such as Chill, Blinds, Cripple, Immobilize, and Weakness. These CCs are listed as conditions. Most condition builds maximize their condition duration with expertise, thus extending the length of their soft CC duration.Power builds rely on soft CC just as much as condition builds but it's much less effective with power builds because power builds naturally aren't stacking expertise on their gear. as you have realized here there is soft cc and hard cc. soft cc is mostly of longer duration so it fits to a condition build. why not improve hard cc for power builds instead of unliking all of it. for example with crit damage. if you have 250% crit damage -150% base = 100% duration added to your hard CC (in case of knockbacks/launch increased distance, not sure about pulls..). there you go each build has their own supported CC type.but ofc your suggestion would work aswell.That's such a terrible idea against anything that doesn't have much access to stability or stunbreaks, especially given how the meta right now favors some builds that count quite a few hard CC abilities that can be chained together. It would make some fights even more onesided, won't address the problem and increase power creep even more."Oh hey look I got stunned, might as well remove my hands from the keyboard and wait respawn". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 @MUDse.7623 said:@Hot Boy.7138 said:I made a post about this a while back, but i figured I'd give it another shot.I think we will all agree that everyone benefits from using Crowd Control. Doesn't matter if you are a condition build or a power build, utilizing CC at the right time is always advantageous. The issue I have is that condition builds benefit much more from soft CCs, such as Chill, Blinds, Cripple, Immobilize, and Weakness. These CCs are listed as conditions. Most condition builds maximize their condition duration with expertise, thus extending the length of their soft CC duration.Power builds rely on soft CC just as much as condition builds but it's much less effective with power builds because power builds naturally aren't stacking expertise on their gear. as you have realized here there is soft cc and hard cc. soft cc is mostly of longer duration so it fits to a condition build. why not improve hard cc for power builds instead of unliking all of it. for example with crit damage. if you have 250% crit damage -150% base = 100% duration added to your hard CC (in case of knockbacks/launch increased distance, not sure about pulls..). there you go each build has their own supported CC type.but ofc your suggestion would work aswell.Just imagine the monster that would be Holosmith if this change went through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pah.4931 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 Makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 agreed. expertise doesnt have as much impact in pvp as wvw, but classes that can keep 100% soft cc uptime soon gain a pretty huge advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bq pd.2148 Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 @Bigbosos.2063 said:@MUDse.7623 said:@"Hot Boy.7138" said:I made a post about this a while back, but i figured I'd give it another shot.I think we will all agree that everyone benefits from using Crowd Control. Doesn't matter if you are a condition build or a power build, utilizing CC at the right time is always advantageous. The issue I have is that condition builds benefit much more from soft CCs, such as Chill, Blinds, Cripple, Immobilize, and Weakness. These CCs are listed as conditions. Most condition builds maximize their condition duration with expertise, thus extending the length of their soft CC duration.Power builds rely on soft CC just as much as condition builds but it's much less effective with power builds because power builds naturally aren't stacking expertise on their gear. as you have realized here there is soft cc and hard cc. soft cc is mostly of longer duration so it fits to a condition build. why not improve hard cc for power builds instead of unliking all of it. for example with crit damage. if you have 250% crit damage -150% base = 100% duration added to your hard CC (in case of knockbacks/launch increased distance, not sure about pulls..). there you go each build has their own supported CC type.but ofc your suggestion would work aswell.That's such a terrible idea against anything that doesn't have much access to stability or stunbreaks, especially given how the meta right now favors some builds that count quite a few hard CC abilities that can be chained together. It would make some fights even more onesided, won't address the problem and increase power creep even more."Oh hey look I got stunned, might as well remove my hands from the keyboard and wait respawn".while you are absolutly correct its smilar with soft cc, if i cant get my weakness off i wont deal much power damage anymore and will run out of endurance and some builds can pretty much spamm weakness, if i cant get immob off - most classes cant dodge and you also cleanse chill as soon as you can etc.ofc you should not simply increase hard CC based on crit damage and call it a day. that is just the design. because then the design is balanced in the way that power builds support hard cc and condi builds support soft cc. when that is done the base duration etc of all hard and soft CC can be toned down.for example base duration of all hard and soft cc reduced by 33%, so if we assume 200% crit damage / 50% condi duration this will result in the same current base values and more investment will give a little higher values but the CC type you are not build for will have reduced duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiago.5946 Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 Was think about this soft cc condis Yesterday i spend all my cleans in vuln, criple ,chill , weakeness, blind ... but when finally try clean 18 staks of confusion was too late (in 3 sec a mirage in stealth plus my lifebar with all condis and the last was 18 staks of confusion)''i suggest our cleans give priority to high stak dmgs condis '' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 Expertise exists to extend condition duration. One aspect of conditions is damage, the other is support/control through debuffing enemies. With the exception of vuln, all conditions that aren't DOTs are considered soft CC, so you're basically just turning it into another damage stat. I'll concede the point on fear and taunt though, but mainly because they should just be considered outright CCs and not conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinful.2165 Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 Due to the requisite cleansing needed to fight the current condi meta almost no one runs expertise in competitive game modes. There just isn’t any reason to. Why would you sacrifice any stat for expertise when you know your target is going to either A. die within 10 seconds or B. cleanse everything and not die in 10 seconds? PvP is all about downing people quickly. Expertise is counter productive. Mirages are murdering people in a matter of seconds with condi, it isn’t thanks to expertise. Most condi builds are high burst coupled with a little survivability via vitality, healing or toughness. This suggestion doesn’t even make sense. What happened to you that even prompted this idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Boy.7138 Posted September 27, 2019 Author Share Posted September 27, 2019 Since i'm back to the game. I felt like this post has some ideas that needs to be revisited. My stance hasn't changed. Expertise should only affect damaging conditions. Conditions builds shouldn't have longer durations than power builds for soft CCs. It gives them an advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 @Hot Boy.7138 said:Since i'm back to the game. I felt like this post has some ideas that needs to be revisited. My stance hasn't changed. Expertise should only affect damaging conditions. Conditions builds shouldn't have longer durations than power builds for soft CCs. It gives them an advantage.I don't get it. Power can burst in a short time so having shorter immob and cripple is fine while condi only does damage over time. It's just logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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