Upcoming Necro Notes

[Galmac.4680]

I really hope, this Herald of Sorrow will make some nice damage, too often we are just nerfed and nerfed and every buff was actually a nerf. Did I say "too often"? I meant "always".Other classes can burst, why not we? But lets wait until tuesday...

[Xxnecroxx.4039]

welp what I pretty much read is thisWe are buffing Power Necro/reaper/scourgeand condi Necro/reper/scourge is still pretty fucked unless you are in PVP/ZERGING WVWthat is what I read, there was ONE SMALL BUFF of a bleed stack increase of 1 on dagger offhand but that is IT

[Lahmia.2193]

@Xxnecroxx.4039 said:welp what I pretty much read is thisWe are buffing Power Necro/reaper/scourgeand condi Necro/reper/scourge is still pretty kitten unless you are in PVP/ZERGING WVWthat is what I read, there was ONE SMALL BUFF of a bleed stack increase of 1 on dagger offhand but that is IT

Sounds good to me.

[ZDragon.3046]

@"felincyriac.5981" said:Man the "...all the necromancer specializations have a healthy representation in competitive game modes." is pretty concerning tbh, will we just be seeing dmg% inc to irrelevant skills and tooltip fixes from now on?

When it comes to reaper and scourge yes....when it comes to core necro probably not To be fair reaper is by far in a great spot for what it is. It could use a few quality of life changes like the removal of its quickness boon for just a flat increase in speed in reaper shroud at baseline and maybe some shouts have 2 charges other than that its solid as is.

The the weakness of scourge and reaper generally come from core necromancer and thats where we will see the biggest changes that have bigger impacts on reaper and scourge. For example the changes to Soul reaping recently etc.

Ideally reaper is at a point where its near its peek and to buff it more would mean that when and if core finally gets its rework or heavily quality of life improvements reaper would need to be nerfed at the same time or soon after as a result.

Scourge is kind of a different story imo its just a mess but thats just my personal opinion

[felincyriac.5981]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"felincyriac.5981" said:Man the "...all the necromancer specializations have a healthy representation in competitive game modes." is pretty concerning tbh, will we just be seeing dmg% inc to irrelevant skills and tooltip fixes from now on?

When it comes to reaper and scourge yes....when it comes to core necro probably not To be fair reaper is by far in a great spot for what it is. It could use a few quality of life changes like the removal of its quickness boon for just a flat increase in speed in reaper shroud at baseline and maybe some shouts have 2 charges other than that its solid as is.

The the weakness of scourge and reaper generally come from core necromancer and thats where we will see the biggest changes that have bigger impacts on reaper and scourge. For example the changes to Soul reaping recently etc.

Ideally reaper is at a point where its near its peek and to buff it more would mean that when and if core finally gets its rework or heavily quality of life improvements reaper would need to be nerfed at the same time or soon after as a result.

Scourge is kind of a different story imo its just a mess but thats just my personal opinion

but where are the changes to core tho? Does their statement of "all necro specs" not include core?

My ideal scenario is core becoming a duel spec, right now it doesn't matter what we take, we need a nanny or we die.

[Kain Francois.4328]

@"felincyriac.5981" said:Man the "...all the necromancer specializations have a healthy representation in competitive game modes." is pretty concerning tbh, will we just be seeing dmg% inc to irrelevant skills and tooltip fixes from now on?

But it's true.

1. Necromancer is a staple for a number of raids, especially in Wing 5.
2. Very strong in spvp
3. Part of GWEN meta

[Apokriphos.7042]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@"felincyriac.5981" said:Man the "...all the necromancer specializations have a healthy representation in competitive game modes." is pretty concerning tbh, will we just be seeing dmg% inc to irrelevant skills and tooltip fixes from now on?

But it's true.

1. Necromancer is a staple for a number of raids, especially in Wing 5.
2. Very strong in spvp
3. Part of GWEN meta

Except its not.

1: You can compare the number of necessary necromancer raid positions on snowcrows.com website and clearly see they rank near the bottom if not the very bottom in terms of required classes. #1 is false.

2. Scourge is very strong in spvp when coupled with a firebrand. However this success, and why it succeeds - i.e. the overabundance of boon generation - shouldn't be the only comparison for an entire class. Necromancers role at the start was never supposed to be boon ripper TM. Looking at the success, or lack thereof, of core necromancer or Reaper in platinum sPvp, the story is flipped on its head. Both flavors of necromancer dont have the necessary tools to disengage from a losing fight, pressure evading or invulnerable opponent, or chase down with leaps a retreating opponent. This is what needs changing, as others here have already said.
3. Necromancer with its abundant AOE has been WvW zerg meta forever, and I blame this on the encouragement of the zerg playstyle by Anet, which allows for large numbers of players to stack into impossibly small spots and exploit aura + finisher stacking. Most games prevent this for good reason. Additionally the new nerf on scourge boon corruption may weaken the N in GWEN.

What about roaming? Necromancer is at the very bottom of this playstyle in WvW.

There is plenty of space to criticize and offer suggestions for class adjustments, but evidence should be offered with a perspective of all sides of each format you critique.

[Xxnecroxx.4039]

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@Xxnecroxx.4039 said:welp what I pretty much read is thisWe are buffing Power Necro/reaper/scourgeand condi Necro/reper/scourge is still pretty kitten unless you are in PVP/ZERGING WVWthat is what I read, there was ONE SMALL BUFF of a bleed stack increase of 1 on dagger offhand but that is IT

Sounds good to me.

I prefer condi necro in PVE and even in PVP/WVW unless there is a crap top of boons to corrupt you are useless, this patch is not the one to bring me back to playing necromancer

[Kain Francois.4328]

@Apokriphos.7042 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@"felincyriac.5981" said:Man the "...all the necromancer specializations have a healthy representation in competitive game modes." is pretty concerning tbh, will we just be seeing dmg% inc to irrelevant skills and tooltip fixes from now on?

But it's true.

1. Necromancer is a staple for a number of raids, especially in Wing 5.
2. Very strong in spvp
3. Part of GWEN meta

Except its not.

1: You can compare the number of necessary necromancer raid positions on snowcrows.com website and clearly see they rank near the bottom if not the very bottom in terms of required classes. #1 is false.

1. Kiter on Dhuum

2. Epi on SH

3. Epi on MO

4. Useful for barrier on no greens VG

5. Clears shards super easily on Xera

6. Scourge healer is extremely powerful

etc

Granted while not everything here is speed-run based, one needs to keep in mind that SC numbers are usually based around minmaxing.

[Apokriphos.7042]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@Apokriphos.7042 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@"felincyriac.5981" said:Man the "...all the necromancer specializations have a healthy representation in competitive game modes." is pretty concerning tbh, will we just be seeing dmg% inc to irrelevant skills and tooltip fixes from now on?

But it's true.

1. Necromancer is a staple for a number of raids, especially in Wing 5.
2. Very strong in spvp
3. Part of GWEN meta

Except its not.

1: You can compare the number of necessary necromancer raid positions on snowcrows.com website and clearly see they rank near the bottom if not the very bottom in terms of required classes. #1 is false.

Granted while not everything here is speed-run based, one needs to keep in mind that SC numbers are usually based around minmaxing.

Yep, and all pug runs aim for those same numbers/methods. It's no secret that in those runs, necro is unwanted, and often kicked or blamed for any failure. Let's not kid ourselves. Anet needs to do quite a bit more to fix this issue then what has been currently done.

[Deadvillager.1956]

@Apokriphos.7042 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@Apokriphos.7042 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@"felincyriac.5981" said:Man the "...all the necromancer specializations have a healthy representation in competitive game modes." is pretty concerning tbh, will we just be seeing dmg% inc to irrelevant skills and tooltip fixes from now on?

But it's true.

1. Necromancer is a staple for a number of raids, especially in Wing 5.
2. Very strong in spvp
3. Part of GWEN meta

Except its not.

1: You can compare the number of necessary necromancer raid positions on snowcrows.com website and clearly see they rank near the bottom if not the very bottom in terms of required classes. #1 is false.

Granted while not everything here is speed-run based, one needs to keep in mind that SC numbers are usually based around minmaxing.

Yep, and all pug runs aim for those same numbers/methods. It's no secret that in those runs, necro is unwanted, and often kicked or blamed for any failure. Let's not kid ourselves. Anet needs to do quite a bit more to fix this issue then what has been currently done.

While i agree with you and want some number adjustments on any necro spec, i have noticed that most squads let you play almost anything as long as you fulfill the kp requirements and play the right damage type for the right encounter.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Apokriphos.7042 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@"felincyriac.5981" said:Man the "...all the necromancer specializations have a healthy representation in competitive game modes." is pretty concerning tbh, will we just be seeing dmg% inc to irrelevant skills and tooltip fixes from now on?

But it's true.

1. Necromancer is a staple for a number of raids, especially in Wing 5.
2. Very strong in spvp
3. Part of GWEN meta

Except its not.

1: You can compare the number of necessary necromancer raid positions on snowcrows.com website and clearly see they rank near the bottom if not the very bottom in terms of required classes. #1 is false.

Well, raid is not "competitive" game mode and not every profession can be the "most effective" profession. The necromancer just isn't designed to reach the extrems where other professions are due to the fact that the necromancer's profession mechanism always pack defense, attack and somehow support all in. And to balance the fact that they got everything by default, ANet just can't let them the most effective at one single task.

2. Scourge is very strong in spvp when coupled with a firebrand. However this success, and why it succeeds - i.e. the overabundance of boon generation - shouldn't be the only comparison for an entire class. Necromancers role at the start was never supposed to be boon ripper TM. Looking at the success, or lack thereof, of core necromancer or Reaper in platinum sPvp, the story is flipped on its head. Both flavors of necromancer dont have the necessary tools to disengage from a losing fight, pressure evading or invulnerable opponent, or chase down with leaps a retreating opponent. This is what needs changing, as others here have already said.

ANet talk about "healthy representation" in sPvP which neither mean that the necromancer need to be "meta" nor does it mean that it need a high representation in the top 1% of the gamemode. The necromancer is well represented amongst the sPvP's "larger" tiers which is more than enough to claim that it does have an "healthy representation" in the gamemode.

3. Necromancer with its abundant AOE has been WvW zerg meta forever, and I blame this on the encouragement of the zerg playstyle by Anet, which allows for large numbers of players to stack into impossibly small spots and exploit aura + finisher stacking. Most games prevent this for good reason. Additionally the new nerf on scourge boon corruption may weaken the N in GWEN.

WvW is a cooperative gamemode, which in itself justify zerging. Small scale fights are supposed to be done in sPvP. Any way, a well organized 20 man "zerg" can still wreck a badly organized 60 men zerg which mean that number isn't everything in the gamemode.

Objectively the change on unending corruption will change nothing for the scourge's representation in WvW. If anything, this change will increase the overall "positive" support given by the scourge at the expense of it's overall ability to debuff. This will make the zergs bulkiers and reduce a bit their range offensive capacity, hopefully increasing the value of the melee oriented professions.

NB.: The GWEN meta died long ago, nowaday it would be more GRN...

[felincyriac.5981]

What I was trying to say was that this metric of how popular necro is shouldn't really be used to justify why the class isn't deserving of buffs, lets be real necro is one of the easiest and most forgiving classes, so it's expected to be quite popular amongst less gifted players, but as you climb the ladder you are outclassed by pretty much everything as you soon see other classes do more damage, have better survivability and mobility, coupled with smarter opponents who won't try to melee a reaper and stand in it's aoe. The exception is scourge + FB, but if you are solo queuing then you can't really guarantee the other half, and if FB were to get gutted then this option would become unviable. I would have wanted to see some changes to raise the skill ceiling of this class, such that it will remain relatively unchanged at lower levels of play, but more experienced players can exploit these changes to perform better. Core, reaper and scourge need some kind of support to function, I'd have liked to see some variance here.

[Methuselah.4376]

@Obtena.7952 said:I can't see Reaper pushing much more DPS. 5% on Cold shoulder sounds like lots, but you need 100% uptime on chill to get it. Unless you load up on chill apps, camping AA on GS to get that is actually a DPS drop.

Between Haunt, GS5, RS 3 which you can pop after RS4, GS autos, RS5 when enemy is below 25% and Chilling Nova going off every 8 seconds, your chill uptime should not be an issue.

[Obtena.7952]

@Xxnecroxx.4039 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@Xxnecroxx.4039 said:welp what I pretty much read is thisWe are buffing Power Necro/reaper/scourgeand condi Necro/reper/scourge is still pretty kitten unless you are in PVP/ZERGING WVWthat is what I read, there was ONE SMALL BUFF of a bleed stack increase of 1 on dagger offhand but that is IT

Sounds good to me.

I prefer condi necro in PVE and even in PVP/WVW unless there is a kitten top of boons to corrupt you are useless, this patch is not the one to bring me back to playing necromancer

Sure, but what you prefer to do that has no bearing on what Anet chooses to change in the game, nor anyone else. Condi on Necro is a powerful build, period. If you think it's getting buffs significant enough to bring you back to the game ... well, you might be away for longer than you think.

Didn't we have this conversation like ... 4 times already?

[Nimon.7840]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@"felincyriac.5981" said:Man the "...all the necromancer specializations have a healthy representation in competitive game modes." is pretty concerning tbh, will we just be seeing dmg% inc to irrelevant skills and tooltip fixes from now on?

But it's true.

1. Necromancer is a staple for a number of raids, especially in Wing 5.Not really, it's only really good at one boss, which is soulless horror...

2. Very strong in spvp

3. Part of GWEN meta

[ZDragon.3046]

@felincyriac.5981 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@felincyriac.5981 said:Man the "...all the necromancer specializations have a healthy representation in competitive game modes." is pretty concerning tbh, will we just be seeing dmg% inc to irrelevant skills and tooltip fixes from now on?

When it comes to reaper and scourge yes....when it comes to core necro probably not To be fair reaper is by far in a great spot for what it is. It could use a few quality of life changes like the removal of its quickness boon for just a flat increase in speed in reaper shroud at baseline and maybe some shouts have 2 charges other than that its solid as is.

The the weakness of scourge and reaper generally come from core necromancer and thats where we will see the biggest changes that have bigger impacts on reaper and scourge. For example the changes to Soul reaping recently etc.

Ideally reaper is at a point where its near its peek and to buff it more would mean that when and if core finally gets its rework or heavily quality of life improvements reaper would need to be nerfed at the same time or soon after as a result.

Scourge is kind of a different story imo its just a mess but thats just my personal opinion

but where are the changes to core tho? Does their statement of "all necro specs" not include core?

My ideal scenario is core becoming a duel spec, right now it doesn't matter what we take, we need a nanny or we die.

Core necro needs a fix to death magicDeath magic does not do what Defense does for Warrior or Wilderness Survival does for ranger, It wont do what Water does for ele and it wont do what inspiration does for mesmer. Death magic fails at providing proper sustain for team or dueling efforts and its why blood magic is often used in its place. Blood magic offers almost everything death magic offers but with better pay off in some cases.

If death magic was = to what defense trait line is on warrior I have no doubt that we would see Spite, Death Magic, Reapers running around but thats simply not the case.

[Gustaff.6581]

Im thinking of herald of Sorrow having a huge animation, like telling you "hey its me! im going to send my burst in 3, 2, 1......." for everyone to see.

Also, enfebling blood condition damage has been increased by... 50%! i mean, from 2 stacks to... 3 stacks! im sure it will make a difference

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Conqueror.3682" said:Im thinking of herald of Sorrow having a huge animation, like telling you "hey its me! im going to send my burst in 3, 2, 1......." for everyone to see.

Also, enfebling blood condition damage has been increased by... 50%! i mean, from 2 stacks to... 3 stacks! im sure it will make a difference

99% chance people will be careless not seeing the obvious orange circle growing and then they will come to the forum crying that the damage of the skill is OP when it won't even hold a candle to the damage that a lot of skills can already do.

[felincyriac.5981]

ok so the new shroud doesn't work the way I imagined (placing shade before explosion), dnt think it's good tbh

[Lily.1935]

Herald of Sorrow Is, in my opinion, extremely poor design. Let me explain. While choosing your traits you get a couple of options that are geared toward the 3 different play styles of the scourge. Support, DPS and Debuffing. Herald of Sorrow bleeds this functionality by giving your Desert shroud the ability to support. But its in direct competition with Desert empowerment, which is still superior. Why have this functionality? The arming delay is a bit too long too. I don't personally mind the arming delay, but this makes it very difficult to use with a low pay off. 2 boons removed is absolutely a waste for the time it takes to arm it. I'd rather burn a utility on well of corruption. Which is saying a lot. I know you say you want to reduce the effectiveness of boon corruption, but at the same time this doesn't really stop it. In WvW, the zergs are going to be able to break up boons anyway with other traits. BUT! this isn't the only issue I have with this. This also exacerbates the existing problems with Desert shroud and the utility of other shroud based traits. This takes a design choice that is already problematic and makes it worse.

Anet! You want to solve the issue, you need to change the Function of Sand Savant. Make that Grandmaster trait function as support! Strip it of its ability to deal damage and make it so your massive shade can only support allies... Its got the same trait problem as above but at least it would help us our in our support role.

[felincyriac.5981]

Death perception doesn't work on the bomb :/

[gavyne.6847]

Herald of Sorrow is absolute garbage. 3 seconds is a long time and I have not been able to hit people with it consistently, even in huge blob vs blob fights. People either moved out of them or are already dead by the time they detonate. I hate it. And for myself, I have been able to see the ticks every single time and only been hit by it once. So easy to avoid/dodge now.

[Tyson.5160]

@gavyne.6847 said:Herald of Sorrow is absolute garbage. 3 seconds is a long time and I have not been able to hit people with it consistently, even in huge blob vs blob fights. People either moved out of them or are already dead by the time they detonate. I hate it. And for myself, I have been able to see the ticks every single time and only been hit by it once. So easy to avoid/dodge now.

What is the skill break down condi, damage, boon corrupt, barrier?

Away from my pc at the moment.

[Jethro.9376]

Is it me or does the bomb not even proc on the shade if you cast it before the shade is summoned?