New Race?

[Leo G.4501]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:Of course, ANet could limit the armor initially to a few sets, skip the voice, not worry about continuity, not have a home city for the new race.

The home city issue is also one of the simplest solutions. Considering an expansion that moves to a new area will undoubtedly have a new hub area that acts as a nexus to the new zone paths. The challenge comes with trying to make such a city zone a place players visit often rather than just a spot for newbies to have their tutorials (because a new race would likely require some advancement in the story thus no tutorial/"starter zones" required).

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:That brings us to the other major limiting factor. It turns out that only a fraction of players spends any significant time with non-human races. Some people only play humans, some people mostly play humans. Of those who do, only a fraction do so just for the chance to play a new race. For many, the above things are critical features.

I believe the statistics show that humans is the most played race but it is still in the minority if you consider the amount of players that make/play non-human characters are who added races would appeal to.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:Some people have suggested that there are ways to monetize a new race. And there are. ANet could charge for an unlock or charge more for a character slot for a new race. They could create player housing, that would include gem shop decorations. The forums have been filled with such ideas for ages.

Yes, at this point, I feel Anet needs to start getting the ball rolling on monetizing newer game additions. New races is just one possibility. Build template slots, maybe a custom appearance template. I personally believe they can't keep making mount skins, glider skins, weapon skins, mini-pets and outfits and keep up their profits.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:The problem is that this assumes that ANet has never considered any of it. If we presume that they know their business (and we have good cause to, since they've been making money off of RPGs for what amounts to forever in their industry), then we have to presume that they have considered all of this and can't make the math work. They know that a new race is a huge selling point for expansions, they know that a substantial fraction of the minority who loves new races would spend anything they can for it. And despite that, they still think this is overall a financial drain.

Of course, we could presume that they don't know their business (and we have some cause to doubt). We'd then have to assume that it has never occurred to them to try any of these income-generating ideas or cost work-arounds until posted in the forums. And then we'd have to assume that they are good enough to understand the idea, incorporate it into their business model, and turn it into a strong profit-per-cost initiative. Of course, that's not likely, since in order to get to that step, we assumed that they don't know their business very well.

tl;dr a new race is definitely possible; even ANet says that. The problem is that the costs exceed the conceivable benefits. It's a great game-playing idea; it's just not the best use of limited resources.

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:I have seen pure f2p MMOs (not b2P like GW2) introducing new races so it is definitely doable. Now it would still be a lot of work so judging from the way Anet handles things of late and taking recent news into account, I 'd say it's possible but highly improbable. The only way I can see them doing it is making a new race based on existing assets. like tengu on a human base, but still unlikely.

And for my contrary thoughts on new races. While I'm certain Anet knows their game better than anyone else, they wouldn't have been the first gaming studio who had too lofty of goals for the creation/sustainment of their own game. They might not be bleeding money or anything, but they certainly are the authors of their own demise with regard to implementing resource intensive features that would be just a couple development cycles for most other similar games without compounding their work. Seriously, who makes an MMO with multiple races and then completely botches the opportunity to make more? For example, I'm 100% certain Blade and Soul could easily make a new race for their game because they don't require extra voiced work and their armor system works on highly stylized outfits; FFXIV already added a new race and could add another with relative ease (although their races are rather garbage re-copies).

While I can praise Anet for their great implementation of their diverse and unique races, I wouldn't give them the out and just push new races off as too much work. If they are truly as competent as claimed, then they knew the amount of work they were piling on their plate. The amount of work and effort involved in adding races is a testament to their work ethic, not their limit.

[Mathias.9657]

@"nanomidgy.9180" said:Kodan as a playable race please! I really like their culture and religion.

Are you aware of the permanent kodan tonic which lets you fight in combat without losing your transformation? It's one of my favs along with the mini tonic. I can't remember with LS map they are in, one of the merchants has them.

[A Big Guy.9702]

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:tl;dr a new race is definitely possible; even ANet says that. The problem is that the costs exceed the conceivable benefits. It's a great game-playing idea; it's just not the best use of limited resources.

I get that. I tried to make it clear I had some idea of the costs, mentioning the animating, rigging, and asset modification off-handedly. I've just often heard the objection raised that they'd have to redo the world and add a bunch of voice lines for the story and rewrite stuff, and I wanted to challenge that.

I wish that companies would do some sort of "crowd funding" model for unprofitable but strongly desired features. For instance, I want better optimization. I also want a playable race. I will directly pay for both. If they had some part of the store where I could pledge money towards the development of certain features, and explained who they might need to hire and gave me a date range for when that feature should arrive in game, I'd be happy as a clam. Once the funding goal is met, I get charged, and they slot it in to the development roadmap or bring in new people to work on it immediately.

It feels like QoL features and pricier features like races end up getting neglected in most games because there is no way to easily monetize them. But that's an avenue for monetization which has been around for years - it just hasn't been tried in this context.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:New races can be added to the current timeline and there is no reason at all to have them linked to personal stories. Why not add the race and tie their story to the new adventures if personal story is what you want? How many people have started characters without bothering to complete the old personal story at all? The race could just be added as a stand alone based on it's current history and not have it eligible for entering the personal story and qualify as the commander moving forward in LW.AS far as it requiring too many resources, well we all know they were pouring the bulk of their resources as of the launch of PoF into other projects altogether so not having them today when GW2 is supposed to be their sole focus is just opinion and conjecture.A new race does not need the entire back story it's done all the time in MMO's and GW2 doesn't need to be any different. Tengu become a playable race when we unlock an area like Dominion of Winds, or Largos when we unlock underwater realm. Hell i bet there are some people who would be willing to purchase an expansion with that theme as its sole main addition to the game, i know i would!

Do we know 'the bulk of their resources' were poured into other projects? Or could that 'just opinion and conjecture'?

[kharmin.7683]

Of course a new race would require a complete personal story because if it didn't people would complain that they couldn't do the PS with the new race.

[zityz.6089]

In the current state? No I don't think they would be adding any new races into the game. Heck they never finished the original 6th race in the base game before that came out.

The only way I can see them adding a new race( Tengu, Largos etc) or classes is if they're making a separate continent add on I.E. Cantha/ Other part of the Tyrian world we've yet to experience in the lore yet, and adding them into the game for that story line. Then have then just merge over.

I would like to see them release the Domain of the Winds, as a hub like the Four Winds map and use it for events, then just leave that square there, unless its planned as a Living story map years from now when we finally(if) deal with Primordius.

I just don't have much expectation of any new races or classes from here on out.

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:> Do we know 'the bulk of their resources' were poured into other projects? Or could that 'just opinion and conjecture'?

Well according to a former dev that is exactly what happened and feel free to listen to WP video, although his name is never given. Regardless none of what I just said is beyond a fair size development group that is still left at Anet, that also is in WP's video. Frankly if the choice is never getting a new race or getting one that couldn't go back and replay 6 plus year old content i'm pretty sure a large portion of the player base with be more than happy playing it going forward, at least those in my circle of friends.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@A Big Guy.9702 said:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:tl;dr a new race is definitely possible; even ANet says that. The problem is that the costs exceed the conceivable benefits. It's a great game-playing idea; it's just not the best use of limited resources.

I get that. I tried to make it clear I had some idea of the costs, mentioning the animating, rigging, and asset modification off-handedly. I've just often heard the objection raised that they'd have to redo the world and add a bunch of voice lines for the story and rewrite stuff, and I wanted to challenge that."Setting unreachable standards is counterproductive: the perfect is the enemy of the good" implies a belief that ANet's minimum standards for a new race is unrealistic... or that they don't really know what their fans would want for a new race.

I wish that companies would do some sort of "crowd funding" model for unprofitable but strongly desired features.There are good reasons that no established company does that. It's fine for a startup, sometimes it's essential. They don't have access to long-term funding sources. But an already-successful company,

especially

a game company cannot afford to tie their fortunes to the fickle preferences of their fans. ANet already has stockholders breathing down its owners' necks (hence the recent layoffs); things would be worse if fans are expecting "return on investment" for something so nebulous to define as "better optimization" or "playable race." What you want isn't going to match what I want, but both of us would have reason to expect something close to our ideal, especially if we pay more than the cost of an expansion.

Further, a company needs some sort of stability for hiring top talent. Crowd-sourcing won't guarantee there's a job for the same staff after the crowd-pleasing project ends, whereas the traditional corporate model comes as close as any of us have. Crowd-sourcing would have to account for training and distractions, for the extra HR personnel and extra computers needed to support the extra coders... and none of that can just join and disappear at will.

And what sort of game do you think we'd have if only the richest 10% can afford to pay the amounts needed to fund their favorite projects? Without ANet having total control over the direction of the game, GW2 would be a kite in a thunderstorm, blowing whichever way the air currents are flowing.

It feels like QoL features and pricier features like races end up getting neglected in most games because there is no way to easily monetize them. But that's an avenue for monetization which has been around for years - it just hasn't been tried in this context.Near as I can tell, it's been seriously considered by all sorts of people. There's a reason that top talent that left ANet in 2017|2018 went to established and traditionally-funded companies. Crowd-sourcing is a great model for start-ups, but the model is still in its infancy. Major MMOs aren't "gigs" that can gain and lose people at a whim; they take half-decades to establish, years|half-years for significant new projects, and half-years|quarters even for things like episodes.

tl;dr successful MMOs require a lot more involvement than most of us realize.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:Of course, ANet could limit the armor initially to a few sets, skip the voice, not worry about continuity, not have a home city for the new race.

The home city issue is also one of the simplest solutions. Considering an expansion that moves to a new area will undoubtedly have a new hub area that acts as a nexus to the new zone paths. The challenge comes with trying to make such a city zone a place players visit often rather than just a spot for newbies to have their tutorials (because a new race would likely require some advancement in the story thus no tutorial/"starter zones" required).

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:That brings us to the other major limiting factor. It turns out that only a fraction of players spends any significant time with non-human races. Some people only play humans, some people mostly play humans. Of those who do, only a fraction do so just for the chance to play a new race. For many, the above things are critical features.

I believe the statistics show that humans is the most played race but it is still in the minority if you consider the amount of players that make/play non-human characters are who added races would appeal to.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:Some people have suggested that there are ways to monetize a new race. And there are. ANet could charge for an unlock or charge more for a character slot for a new race. They could create player housing, that would include gem shop decorations. The forums have been filled with such ideas for ages.

Yes, at this point, I feel Anet needs to start getting the ball rolling on monetizing newer game additions. New races is just one possibility. Build template slots, maybe a custom appearance template. I personally believe they can't keep making mount skins, glider skins, weapon skins, mini-pets and outfits and keep up their profits.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:The problem is that this assumes that ANet has never considered any of it. If we presume that they know their business (and we have good cause to, since they've been making money off of RPGs for what amounts to forever in their industry), then we have to presume that they have considered all of this and can't make the math work. They know that a new race is a huge selling point for expansions, they know that a substantial fraction of the minority who loves new races would spend anything they can for it. And despite that, they still think this is overall a financial drain.

Of course, we could presume that they don't know their business (and we have some cause to doubt). We'd then have to assume that it has never occurred to them to try any of these income-generating ideas or cost work-arounds until posted in the forums. And then we'd have to assume that they are good enough to understand the idea, incorporate it into their business model, and turn it into a strong profit-per-cost initiative. Of course, that's not likely, since in order to get to that step, we assumed that they don't know their business very well.

tl;dr a new race is definitely possible; even ANet says that. The problem is that the costs exceed the conceivable benefits. It's a great game-playing idea; it's just not the best use of limited resources.

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:I have seen pure f2p MMOs (not b2P like GW2) introducing new races so it is definitely doable. Now it would still be a lot of work so judging from the way Anet handles things of late and taking recent news into account, I 'd say it's possible but highly improbable. The only way I can see them doing it is making a new race based on existing assets. like tengu on a human base, but still unlikely.

And for my contrary thoughts on new races. While I'm certain Anet knows their game better than anyone else, they wouldn't have been the first gaming studio who had too lofty of goals for the creation/sustainment of their own game. They might not be bleeding money or anything, but they certainly are the authors of their own demise with regard to implementing resource intensive features that would be just a couple development cycles for most other similar games without compounding their work. Seriously, who makes an MMO with multiple races and then completely botches the opportunity to make more? For example, I'm 100% certain Blade and Soul could

easily

make a new race for their game because they don't require extra voiced work and their armor system works on highly stylized outfits; FFXIV already added a new race and could add another with relative ease (although their races are rather garbage re-copies).

While I can praise Anet for their great implementation of their diverse and unique races, I wouldn't give them the out and just push new races off as too much work. If they are truly as competent as claimed, then they knew the amount of work they were piling on their plate. The amount of work and effort involved in adding races is a testament to their work ethic, not their limit.

Despite recent hiccups, GW2 is still one of the most popular MMORPGs out there and they can definitely afford making a new fully voiced race, if they wanted. Thing is that the gaming industry, as a whole these days, wants maximum profit for minimum effort/cost. Anet is no exception at this point and I don't mean the actual devs doing their best given their constraints, but the ones above them making the decisions.

[Magek.4718]

@kharmin.7683 said:Kitten. There are dozens of new race threads. Please use the forums search feature.

Nah, this shows demand. Make as many new threads as you want.

[Saimeren.4952]

@kharmin.7683 said:Kitten. There are dozens of new race threads. Please use the forums search feature.

Then you would complain about him/her necroing the thread.

[kharmin.7683]

@Saimeren.4952 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:Kitten. There are dozens of new race threads. Please use the forums search feature.

Then you would complain about him/her necroing the thread.

Ah yes, because you know all about me.

[kharmin.7683]

@Magek.4718 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:Kitten. There are dozens of new race threads. Please use the forums search feature.

Nah, this shows demand. Make as many new threads as you want.

Duplicate posts are against the forum rules, so have fun with that.

[lare.5129]

New Race is bad idea.there is so much place if we have free develop hands. And spent time for that ? wanna new look - take new outfit !

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

New races require tons of graphical designers' work, tons of scripting related to its new starting maps, home city and tons of efforts of maintaining this all from now on - and all this good for nothing as it brings little to the game in terms of things that really matter. I.e. gameplay. It's just cosmetics, races don't have any real differences in the way they are played.

Or they could put all those efforts into developing a new full expansion brimmed with high-lv content, or do a complete rework of all professions, solving those atrocious power-creep issues which spoil everything. I wonder, what should they choose? That's a rhetorical question.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Leo G.4501" said:I believe the statistics show that humans is the most played race but it is still in the minority if you consider the amount of players that make/play non-human characters are who added races would appeal to.

Official statistic (but old):https://d3b4yo2b5lbfy.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/1c2c9GW2_Anniv_Infographic.jpg

Not official statistic (but newer):https://gw2efficiency.com/account/player-statistics

Humans are the most played race and about 1/3 of the characters are humans.The humanoid races (Human, Norn and Sylvari) combined are about 70%.

This means that the more "unique" races (in terms of animations and armors, not talking about lore/story/aesthetics) the Asura and the Charr are less/equal to 15% eachWhat we get from the data above:a) creating a new race with a completely unique skeleton, meaning brand new animations and armors, is not a very good ideab) creating a new race that uses either the Asura or Charr skeleton is also not a very worthwhile investmentc) in order to be profitable and apply to as many people as possible and at the same time take less resources and development time, a humanoid skeleton should be used for a potential new race, this narrows down the available races to select. Less development, higher potential audience, what's not to like?

I'm not against new races, just analyzing the data we have on what kind of race would make more sense to add.

[Trise.2865]

I will once again suggest my solution.

Generating a side or "meanwhile" story, similar to the Seeds of Truth missions, cuts the overhead costs dramatically, and is not limited by story, continuity (much), or variable skinning. These missions would allow the players to take control of established or otherwise unique, but most importantly, singular characters. We would use their skills and abilities to accomplish a specific mission or set of missions. Setting it in a party instance means they would need, at most, 5 distinct characters, and these characters can use existing rigs, models, and animations, with minimal effort making them appear unique (which can then be implemented into the game proper, should our Commander perchance encounter them). Their skills and mechanics need only be balanced to their specific mission, and as such have significantly more freedom in their concepts.

These could very easily be monetized, much like Guild Wars' Bonus Missions were, and like those could reward special items and skins (that might otherwise be sold in the Gem Store), while adding deeper explorations of the Lore, and at the very least adding new and different things to do. All of which are things people have been requesting ad nauseam.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:As I see it, the problem with races is that race is tied to the personal story, achievements, the home instance, etc making new races either needing to fit into the personal story or the devs needing to change character creation. When you consider that it took them a full year to fix one UI bug that forced the closing of the Hall of Monument calculator, changing character creation would be very resource intensive

The last time they commented on new races they said

GW2 meet and greet

I asked whether they have even considered adding a new race for PoF. Mike said that no and then added that new races in GW2 are "not impossible but very unlikely" to appear in the future. Implementing them would require a lot of resources that can be spent better on creating new content relevant for all players.

You mean creating failed projects off to the side, while simply plugging along in this game? Yea that is about right. No it was that they were stretched thin and didn't have the manpower to do it, so again it comes back to excuses. I love this company, and the game but they reap what they sow and when those projects began to become money sinks they should of pulled back and put everyone back onto guild wars 2. They could of made a mobile game like flappy bird with rytlock in the mists, quick and easy or hell make a bejeweled knock off with flunt looking for unique crystals in the depths.

Seriously I don't have the patience for this crap of "Too many resources" Mounts probably took about the same amount, and they were a whopping success and everyone loves them. Tengu, Awakened, Largos, hell even the hylek? These are all things Id like to see, things I've wanted and now knowing that its not that is not possible its that they have poor management with funds/Projects and when something is CLEARLY not working they wont back off it. Im sorry I didn't want anyone to loose their job, I don't like that they HAD to loose their job. But fresh eyes, and new blood might do wonders for this game and the company as a whole because I can see the dollar signs for race packs in the cash shop. "Twenty bucks and you unlock the race of your choice to be playable, must have a level 80 on the account and the race starts at level 80." The lore/story don't matter much as the revenants have proven, we do not need a starting zone at all as its irrelevant at this point since they just hand us a level 80 scroll for buying an expansion.

IT can be done, it should be done but IT probably wont be.

[kharmin.7683]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:The lore/story don't matter much as the revenants have proven, we do not need a starting zone at all as its irrelevant at this point since they just hand us a level 80 scroll for buying an expansion.Revenant is a profession, not a race, so there is no personal story to have to manage, nor did it require a starting zone.

[kharmin.7683]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:The lore/story don't matter much as the revenants have proven, we do not need a starting zone at all as its irrelevant at this point since they just hand us a level 80 scroll for buying an expansion.Revenant is a profession, not a race, so there is no personal story to have to manage, nor did it require a starting zone.

[Calvsie.3675]

New race thread? Must be Monday!Awakened would make terrible PCs IMO, I'd rather see bug fixes in the core game.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:The lore/story don't matter much as the revenants have proven, we do not need a starting zone at all as its irrelevant at this point since they just hand us a level 80 scroll for buying an expansion.Revenant is a profession, not a race, so there is no personal story to have to manage, nor did it require a starting zone.

Don't need one here either, as they give us a level 80 scroll when we buy expansions and ALOT of people skip the personal story. If you truly need a story, why not have it be that they give us a five level story in instanced zones. Leading up to the death of a Generic commander who we meet and learn about, only to be the only one standing with them as they die against Krak. Or whatever threat we face at the time ~ This commander then hands you their will and says "Lead them, protect this world... " And dies leaving you as the commander, And at that point if you redo any of the older content its not you doing it. But merely you hearing about or learning about it from the other members of your group. Only a few lines of speech differences need to be made, perhaps with them referencing you have to live up to the commander as the plot continues.

This basically puts you on the current road we are on, while not causing a horrid disconnect in the plot. And there you have it when you're done with the mini-story you enter the world as the commander, level 80 and ready to go on your adventure as the race of your choosing. You don't need a city, as there are PLENTY of races involved that simply were with the Pact that we recruited to help us. Who is to say a tengu didn't join the pact to help because they were tired of inaction, or that some awakened now that they are free didn't decide to follow the commander. Nothing says other wise, for either side ~ It is an open door and is more simplistic than you think. Hell not many people sit in the racial cities outside of divinity's reach, Im in hoelbrak all the time and I only see a few people in general there ~ Which is Why I go there and with all these portal scrolls leading us to instanced personal places with a mystic forge and crap, new hub cities are becoming Irrelevant as Is.

[kharmin.7683]

But not everyone would level 80 their new race. I believe that a new race would need it's own PS and that many players might well expect it to have one because they would like to play through it for the race's lore and such.

[Knighthonor.4061]

Honestly at this point levels really are a old ridiculous concept carried over from old MMOs. There meaningless and boarding and not needed for story telling nor progression. Why not start all new races off as level 80 and carry on with their personal story from there in whatever storypoint the expansion is in. This is another reason I have a problem with living story making player characters the main hero in the lore. You get issues like this. To fix this problem, in the expansion with the new race, make a NPC in the Lore the new main hero, like Uther, Jaina, Arthas, etc are in WoW. Way better story telling that way and better immersion.

[Ayakaru.6583]

We got a lot of new races with the beetle mount, and there's a fair chance we'll get a new race in SAB as well, given they allow us to mount up