Dodge Jump

[Pooktress.2805]

The 'dodge jump' is a manoeuvre which requires minimal skill and can be executed by simply pressing the dodge hotkey & jump hotkey simultaneously. It sounds simple and easy to do, but many people such as myself struggle to do this reliably. But why does it matter? Well, dodge-jumping isn't just a cool party trick; it's actually superior to a regular dodge or regular jump; it travels further and faster than a regular jump while additionally evading incoming attacks. This is especially useful for competitive game modes such as sPvP and WvW.

In all of the forum threads and reddit posts I have found about dodge jumping, there are always elitists claiming "dodge jumping is easy, just git gud and press both buttons at the same time. I never fail this", but I think they are exaggerating just to brag. When I use an AutoHotkey macro to bind dodge+jump to a single button, the success rate greatly improves but still never reaches 100% (not sure why - people have speculated it might be ping related) and this method is not fair to people who cannot/will not use macros (perhaps they are scared of being banned, perhaps they do not feel comfortable with code, perhaps their computer is not able to run AutoHotkey, or perhaps they simply do not want to use macros - the reason is irrelevant).

ArenaNet even wrote a macro usage policy, stating that it is ok to use macros for things like dodge-jumping and opening bags because "it does not provide the user with an unfair advantage over other players.", but this is simply untrue. Even if the advantage is very small, it is still an advantage, and that is unfair.

I have found many forum threads and reddit posts about this subject; the oldest one I can find dates back to 2013 - six years and several dozens of forum posts later, ArenaNet have still not addressed this issue - why? I think it is because a perfect solution has not yet been found, but here are some ideas, along with some potential issues:

1. Create a dodge jump hotkey in the game, so a user can assign dodge+jump to a single button - This solution is perhaps too simple; having a dodge+jump hotkey would practically replace the regular dodge hotkey because dodge+jumping is almost always superior to regular dodging. There are very few scenarios where it is important to dodge without also jumping at the same time.
2. Nerf dodge jump so it performs the same as regular dodge/regular jump, or remove the ability to dodge jump altogether - The problem with this solution is that there are several parts of the game which rely on the superior travel distance of dodge jumps, or at least benefit greatly from it, such as Tribulation Mode in Super Adventure Box, various jumping puzzles, competitive game modes, etc.
3. Buff regular dodge and regular jump to travel the same distance as dodge jump - This might be one of the best solutions because the only drawback I can think of is that some jumping puzzles might become 'too easy' if regular jump is buffed. Doing this solution or solution (2) would also mean that dodge jumping will become nothing more than a cool trick with no real benefit.
4. Make dodges occur on the release of the dodge hotkey, instead of on the press of the dodge hotkey, so a user could hold down dodge hotkey and jump hotkey together, then release the dodge hotkey to execute a dodge jump - Although this would be a good way to perform a dodge jump with 100% success rate, it would make dodging feel unresponsive because of the delay between pressing and releasing the dodge hotkey. It is better to keep dodge functionality the same so it occurs when the dodge hotkey is pressed.

TL;DRI believe the current state of dodge jumping is not perfect and 'dodge jump macros' are not fair.What do you think the best solution is? Can you think of a better solution? Do you think that nothing should be changed? If so, why?

[Warscythes.9307]

There is no need for solution because there is no problem. I can't dodge jump and that's fine, I don't ask to take it away from others who can because is not required, at most it makes a few very niche things slightly easier such as SAB hardmode. So I don't really care.

[Mewcifer.5198]

When I heard they okayed dodge-jump macros I thought it was only talking about for use in things like SAB and JPs. But it looks like they didn't make any such limitation. Huh.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"Pooktress.2805" said:In all of the forum threads and reddit posts I have found about dodge jumping, there are always elitists claiming "dodge jumping is easy, just git gud and press both buttons at the same time. I never fail this", but I think they are exaggerating just to brag. When I use an AutoHotkey macro to bind dodge+jump to a single button, the success rate greatly improves but still never reaches 100% (not sure why - people have speculated it might be ping related) and this method is not fair to people who cannot/will not use macros (perhaps they are scared of being banned, perhaps they do not feel comfortable with code, perhaps their computer is not able to run AutoHotkey, or perhaps they simply do not want to use macros - the reason is irrelevant).

This paragraph seems to be the foundation of your argument, to which I will point out, is contradictory.

You have stated that there are players who can manually dodge jump, and there also exists the option to use a macro for those not skilled enough to do so manually. How is it unfair that people who lack the skill to be able to dodge jump manually and who equally lack the skill in using a macro, cannot therefore dodge jump? Seems perfectly fair to me - and perfect description of just exactly who shouldn't be able to dodge jump.

There is no problem here.

The logical fallacy of a guaranteed equality of outcome has to be one of the most toxic philosophies imposed on the modern generation.

All anyone has a right to ask for is an equality of opportunity; the mechanic exists in game for anyone to use, and you can also automate it with a macro. If a player is incapable of doing either, they must then live without being able to dodge jump until they 'git gud'.

[Pooktress.2805]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:How is it unfair that people who lack the skill to be able to dodge jump manually and who equally lack the skill in using a macro, cannot therefore dodge jump? Seems perfectly fair to me - and perfect description of just exactly who shouldn't be able to dodge jump.

I think you will be the first to agree with me that pressing two buttons simultaneously is so easy that even a monkey could do it. And yet even a macro cannot execute a dodge jump with 100% success, so skill level is irrelevant and people who claim to be able to execute dodge jumps manually with 100% success are simply lying to try and show off.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Pooktress.2805 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:How is it unfair that people who lack the skill to be able to dodge jump manually and who equally lack the skill in using a macro, cannot therefore dodge jump? Seems perfectly fair to me - and perfect description of just exactly who shouldn't be able to dodge jump.

I think you will be the first to agree with me that pressing two buttons simultaneously is so easy that even a monkey could do it. And yet even a macro cannot execute a dodge jump with 100% success, so skill level is irrelevant and people who claim to be able to execute dodge jumps manually with 100% success are simply lying to try and show off.

Impossible for me to do so, since we cannot prove these players are lying.

To be frank I don't think I've even tried to dodge jump, as I'd only heard it in reference to SAB, and World 1 was about as far as I was prepared to go lol. I have seen vids of SAB though, where players are executing this move, so either they are able to do it manually, or the macro works. Either way, if the only thing that allows one player to do it over another is skill, then that should be working as intended, especially for what I would describe as an 'optional' move, given I've played over 3000hrs of this game without ever having done it.

If dodge jumping gave players a meaningful advantage in this game, but was, for example, only available to those with the title Hero of Lion's Arch or something, then by all means there is a degree of unfairness here. But that isn't what I see.

[Danikat.8537]

I've never been able to dodge jump. I've very occasionally managed it when practising but never reliably and never seem to be able to do it when it matters. But I've almost never felt like I needed to, and when I did it turned out to be unnecessary. For example when I started trying to do tribulation mode in Super Adventure Box I'd occasionally resort to looking at walk-throughs and for a few bits every single one I found said you need to dodge jump, but I was always able to find another way to do it.

I wouldn't be against Anet adding the option to create a keybind for it, and I think that could be an effective way to clear up the debate about whether it's allowed and if it's an exploit, but I also don't think it's necessary.

[Holykitten.3064]

I don't think anything should be changed.You can either, and I know you stated you think players exaggerate, learn to pull this off manually (it is easy to do). OR, use a macro, since Anet has allowed a macro for this purpose now.There's been a few threads, mainly over the SAB periods, that Dodge-jumps are unreliable, unfair, or can't be executed at all. This is not a global problem. A lot theorised that hardware could be the culprit (membrane keyboards for example).Personally, I can reliably dodge-jump, but it's rare I do so. Actually, I just spent a few minutes dodge-jumping around Hoelbrak just to see if anything had changed. It hadn't. I did this purely because of this thread.So, with that said, dodge-jumping isn't the be-all-end-all, and you can play the game without it.

[Ayakaru.6583]

The only advantage i can think of at the top of my head is in SAB, where some jumps and most guides you follow require it

[Pooktress.2805]

@everyone, I completely agree that this is a minor issue and dodge-jumping is certainly not crucial as the game is perfectly playable without being able to dodge jump. But dodge jumping gives a very small advantage over normal dodging/normal jumping (or very big advantage, depending on who you ask). Regardless, my macro is only able to reach ~99% success at dodge jumping which makes me wonder why ArenaNet don't just add a dedicated hotkey for dodge jumping? Doing so would make dodge jump macros obsolete and remove the 'skill' barrier.

I know you might think "oh boo hoo, only 99% success rate, why is he crying?" but failing to dodge jump will result in a normal jump instead which could be bad news in competitive play since you cannot cancel a jump or channel abilities while airborne (unless you start channelling an ability before you begin to jump, but that doesn't count because dodging would have cancelled the channelling anyway).

[Teratus.2859]

Dodge jumping is as easy or difficult as you make it out to be.

The easiest method is to adjust your keybinds into something that's extremely comfortable for you jump and hit the dodge at the same time.Double tapping to dodge is absolutely a no no here.

Personally I've been clicking my mousewheel to dodge for years so dodge jumping is extremely easy for me since I use both hands to pull it off.With my left hand constantly over WASD and my thumb over SPACE and my right hand constantly on mouse controlling Camera and Dodge it gives me extremely good control over general mobility allowing me to easily dodge and dodge jump in any direction without hampering my reaction time.

[Warscythes.9307]

@Pooktress.2805 said:@everyone, I completely agree that this is a minor issue and dodge-jumping is certainly not crucial as the game is perfectly playable without being able to dodge jump. But dodge jumping gives a very small advantage over normal dodging/normal jumping (or very big advantage, depending on who you ask). Regardless, my macro is only able to reach ~99% success at dodge jumping which makes me wonder why ArenaNet don't just add a dedicated hotkey for dodge jumping? Doing so would make dodge jump macros obsolete and remove the 'skill' barrier.

I know you might think "oh boo hoo, only 99% success rate, why is he crying?" but failing to dodge jump will result in a normal jump instead which could be bad news in competitive play since you cannot cancel a jump or channel abilities while airborne (unless you start channelling an ability before you begin to jump, but that doesn't count because dodging would have cancelled the channelling anyway).

The tiny little advantage does not matter, and if you can do it then is rewarded for be able to do something that requires a bit of skill. Having skill barrier is good in games especially when is tiny little advantages like this ultimately amounts to nothing. You might as well complaining about how stowing to cancel aftercasts to improve damage is bad because is hard to do it consistently.

[Dawdler.8521]

Or they could just make jumping consume 20% of your endurance.

No one would ever talk about dodge jumping in sPvP/WvW again.

Also PvE jump puzzle hoppers would cry but tbh thats just a fun bonus.

[Blocki.4931]

I think any human being is able to put their thumb on space and V and press both at the same time. In fact, I believe even my dog can do it. But since there is absolutely nothing to gain from it, because it is never required for anything there is no reason to do anything about this. It's a learning curve for PvP modes to be able to do it, or you simply don't.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Pooktress.2805" said:I think you will be the first to agree with me that pressing two buttons simultaneously is so easy that even a monkey could do it.I don't agree that this statement is relevant to the discussion. If you press one button slightly wrong, it won't trigger as expected; it takes practice. So sure, a monkey could do it, but only with training... i.e. same as what's required of players. Some players will need more practice and some less; anyone can do it, which doesn't mean that everyone will.

And yet even a macro cannot execute a dodge jump with 100% success,That's not true. If your macro isn't executing the dodge jump with 100% success, then there's a problem with the macro. That can be fixed.

skill level is irrelevantI can't agree.

people who claim to be able to execute dodge jumps manually with 100% success are simply lying to try and show off.No. It's a mistake to assume that: some people are simply naturally better at games than others, so some will be able to execute combo maneuvers easily and some will struggle to ever manage it.

---

As a practical matter: what macro software are you using? Can you screenshot the macro you've set up for dodge-jump? Often, the "fix" is as simple as changing the order of key presses.

[Pooktress.2805]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 Sorry but I don't want to stray too far from the main topic but thanks for your input. If a macro can execute a dodge jump with 100% success (or near 100% success) and dodge jump macros are explicitly allowed by ArenaNet, then why not simply 'cut out the middleman' by adding a single hotkey to the in-game options to execute a dodge jump with 100% success? Especially since most of the people in this thread seem to agree that the advantage it provides is so insignificant anyway.

[Cynder.2509]

Dodgejump is niche? I've been using it every time when dodging since SAB was a thing. Guess, I'm just used to it at this point. :astonished:I know it can be hard at first but you'll get along with it by practicing. What I always do is activating V and space both at the same time as my thum is always laying on both keys and it works splendid every time. Especially useful in some fractal parts aside from SAB or Jumping Puzzles.
Keep going and good luck! :smile:

[Taygus.4571]

I can never dodge jump. Even with a macro, it doesn't dodge jump consistently. (lag?)

I was actually shocked that Anet ok'd macros for this...because how can they tell your only using a macro for dodge jump?and i agree, it likely does give an unfair advantage.

I think Anet should either make dodge jump a specific key bind that will always result in it activating correctly or change it so that it doesn't exist.

But it seems this is a minority thought.

[Teratus.2859]

@Blocki.4931 said:because it is never required for anything there is no reason to do anything about this.

I wouldn't say never required.. rarely required sure but there are circumstances in the game that a dodge jump can mean the difference between life and death.

The Asura fractal is the first one that comes to mind.. that Harpy knockback attack on the jump pad segments is a very quick way to get blasted into oblivion.I've saved myself multiple times by dodge jumping to the next platform and evading that attack.Same thing in the Thermanova fractal dodgejumping over holes in the floor evading attacks.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@"Pooktress.2805" said:

I know you might think "oh boo hoo, only 99% success rate, why is he crying?" but failing to dodge jump will result in a normal jump instead which could be bad news in competitive play since you cannot cancel a jump or channel abilities while airborne (unless you start channelling an ability before you begin to jump, but that doesn't count because dodging would have cancelled the channelling anyway).

Wait, where is the “competitive play” that you claim a dodge jump is an unfair advantage?

[Linken.6345]

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

@"Pooktress.2805" said:

I know you might think "oh boo hoo, only 99% success rate, why is he crying?" but failing to dodge jump will result in a normal jump instead which could be bad news in competitive play since you cannot cancel a jump or channel abilities while airborne (unless you start channelling an ability before you begin to jump, but that doesn't count because dodging would have cancelled the channelling anyway).

Wait, where is the “competitive play” that you claim a dodge jump is an unfair advantage?

spvp

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

55% Jump Button+45% Dodge Button

Push your ''Jump'' (Spacebar) some minisecs (0.1 sec) earlier than dodge

boke

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Dawdler.8521 said:Or they could just make jumping consume 20% of your endurance.

No one would ever talk about dodge jumping in sPvP/WvW again.

Also PvE jump puzzle hoppers would cry but tbh thats just a fun bonus.

I'd prefer it if you allow me to continue jumping up and down in place while waiting for timers to end, tyvm. Otherwise I'll be forced to hover on a Skyscale or something....

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Pooktress.2805 said:@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" thanks for your input.You're welcome. Did you want to share your macro to get some feedback to make it work?

If a macro can execute a dodge jump with 100% success ... then why not simply 'cut out the middleman' by adding a single hotkey?Short story: They didn't add a new hotkey because they didn't need to.

Long story:Originally, such a macro was not explicitly allowed, where "originally" means "for six years." Implicitly it was okay, since ANet didn't act on people who did program their own dodge-jump shortcut (or at least: they didn't go looking for people who did).

Changing the rules to accommodate a wide spread practice was sensible. And free: it required nothing more than an hour of someone's time to write the rule (well maybe four hours, including translations and feedback). In contrast, creating an in-game shortcut requires some amount of programming. Nothing fancy, perhaps, just enough that means that some other QoL issue wouldn't get addressed.

since most of the people in this thread seem to agree that the advantage it provides is so insignificant anyway.I think it's more that people are saying: "dodge jumping is a significant tool that is not important for everyone to learn or use." Your gaming isn't stifled without it.

The idea behind the game's dodge-jump was to be a skilled combo maneuver, more like what we see in shooters than in traditional RPGs (although of course, the lines blur these days). It was sort of a well-known "secret" that initially allowed some people an edge.

Of course, today, it's no longer any kind of secret and, with the allowance of the macro, it requires no specific skill to achieve. That's not at all the same as meaning that dodge-jumping is insignificant. It's a huge help in all kinds of areas: certain JPs, certain fractal|raid mechanics, and of course competitive arenas.

At the same time, there's nothing in the game that explicitly or implicitly requires dodge jumping.

[Thearox.1207]

Hi, personally for me I feel that Dodge Jumping has its benefits (albeit small) since It allows a slightly longer range Jump and Dodge that may be useful in certain circumstances.For example SAB Tribulation and some other JPs.I have also found it particularly useful in sPvP since it would (for example) 'reliably' get my hitbox out of an AoE when I felt just a regular Dodge Roll wouldn't or someone could prevent getting CC'd or damaged while trying to jump onto certain terrain (like getting onto the boxes in Eternal Coliseum without getting CC'd or damaged) It just feels like a handy trick that could be useful from time to time and adds a very minuscule 'quality of life' to the already existing jump or dodge and kinda rewards players in certain situations for being able to pull it off reliably. I do however feel that it's not something that will make or break you as a player, the game is perfectly fine without it and it's definitely not an 'essential' in my opinion.