Nerf the mesmers for the love of pvp

[Vague Memory.2817]

There is only one one shot combo I know of, which exists on Chrono and ANet introduced these changes recently to allow it to happen. Which just proves they don't have a clue what they are doing. It's a burst from stealth involving one daze and all the chrono slow traits. It's a one trick pony but very effective when executed flawlessly. I know because I had an unranked match where I was consistently hit with it successfully and I play usually mes (for a long time). It is situational. Other than that anomoly chrono is trash, and I stopped playing it because pretty much every other class elite can eat it for breakfast. Trust me Mes is in a pretty poor state at the moment, to the point where core Mes should only be used in PvE, Chrono is just awful for damage, and Mirage which is still playable but literally relies on two skills. So those complaining about being one shotted blame ANet who buffed slow skills for no other reason than because they trashed everything else Chrono can do. ANet have been killing build diversity for so long on all classes there are only a few viable ones to choose from, including pure cheese.> @"bOTEB.1573" said:

@Vague Memory.2817 said:There is only one one shot combo I know of, which exists on Chrono and ANet introduced these changes recently to allow it to happen. Which just proves they don't have a clue what they are doing. It's a burst from stealth involving one daze and all the chrono slow traits. It's a one trick pony but very effective when executed flawlessly. I know because I had an unranked match where I was consistently hit with it successfully and I play usually mes (for a long time). It is situational. Other than that anomoly chrono is trash, and I stopped playing it because pretty much every other class elite can eat it for breakfast. Trust me Mes is in a pretty poor state at the moment, to the point where core Mes should only be used in PvE, Chrono is just awful for damage, and Mirage which is still playable but literally relies on two skills. So those complaining about being one shotted blame ANet who buffed slow skills for no other reason than because they trashed everything else Chrono can do. ANet have been killing build diversity for so long on all classes there are only a few viable ones to choose from, including pure cheese.

Good that we agree this should be nerfed.

And if I may add - many more things should be tuned down. The combo clonses+torment+daze+stealth spam must stop now.

I disagree. You don't know enough about Mes to call for nerfs. Because what you just said is nonsense. There is no daze or stealth spam on Mes. Also after several rounds of previous nerfs torment and confusing stacking to significant levels isn't possible. Every class has combos, but one shot combos that can be performed in about 2secs are ridiculous. Herald can still do this. Mes has two big weakness that any class can and has exploited to defeat them. This is two more than most other class specs. Some people just can't learn to deal with clones, because they are new to PvP or just plain lazy. That isn't enough justification for another round of nerfs to an already crippled class.

[Tiipi.6750]

Let's be honest here, if people actually bothered to change their build when there's 2 mirage in the enemy team, we wouldn't see as much complaints ...

[Dreddo.9865]

@viquing.8254 said:

1. Who can faceroll a mesmer?Nobody because if you faceroll you will get lockdown.Now the guy who is perma CCed and immobilised did facerolling because no cast = no immob.So you assume all encounters start as the offender facerolling the mesmer or else the mesmer is not possible to unload his burst. Ok thanks for providing the solution as if the mesmer doesn't have tools to 'jump around' (tip: Phase Retreat, Jaunt).

2. Who doesn't have condi clears in their build?Many players since we aren't in a condi meta.Players or builds? Because all meta builds (or even variations of them) provide at least some basic cleansing.

3. How much stability/stun breaks can a 'build' (class specific) have?Bored to rewrite it explained : basically : scrapper, defense sb, holo with stab, thief, slb, gard shouldn't have issues against CI builds.Let's see scrapper, guard (maybe DH you mean?) defense Slb, holo, all have blocks which is the main weakness of that build. But even then all blocks have CDs which a clever mirage will take in account. Now compared to the 3s ICD of CI I guess you see the issue. And of course if the mirage find that small window you are doomed to melt. :)

[Equinox.1463]

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@"viquing.8254" said:

1. Who can faceroll a mesmer?Nobody because if you faceroll you will get lockdown.Now the guy who is perma CCed and immobilised did facerolling because no cast = no immob.So you assume all encounters start as the offender facerolling the mesmer or else the mesmer is not possible to unload his burst. Ok thanks for providing the solution as if the mesmer doesn't have tools to 'jump around' (tip: Phase Retreat, Jaunt).

2. Who doesn't have condi clears in their build?Many players since we aren't in a condi meta.Players or builds? Because all meta builds (or even variations of them) provide at least some basic cleansing.

3. How much stability/stun breaks can a 'build' (class specific) have?Bored to rewrite it explained : basically : scrapper, defense sb, holo with stab, thief, slb, gard shouldn't have issues against CI builds.Let's see scrapper, guard (maybe DH you mean?) defense Slb, holo, all have blocks which is the main weakness of that build. But even then all blocks have CDs which a clever mirage will take in account. Now compared to the 3s ICD of CI I guess you see the issue. And of course if the mirage find that small window you are doomed to melt. :)

1: Jaunt and PR are minor teleports. They can do so much in this Swiftness/Leap/mobility meta where nearly all classes can outrun those two, even in the shortest of races to catch up.

2: Minor cleansing and major cleansing are two very different things, as their names suggest. One is a "cleanse one", one is a "cleanse 3 or more". Most builds can only cleanse a condition at the time, meaning you only get to cleanse stuff like chill or poison before immobilization. Cleanse priority isn't on CI Mirage's fault, is it?

3: just like if you find that window to fight the Mirage you are encountering, it's going to melt. :) And let's not talk about 3 clones distortion, or their random reset on their F4. A good scrapper can chain even more damage mitigation, same with Holosmith, Spellbreaker, most Guardian builds, Thief, Herald, heck even Soulbeast have equal to more damage mitigation.

Now, to make it clear: CI Interrupt is freaking annoying. But if ya'll trashtalkers are as good as you say you are, you should know that this build has a lot of ways to be countered. Bursts of damage, condi or power based, melt through it if well timed. Any bunker build should 100% stall forever and even get node ownership over time. And that's coming from a one condi cleanse each 10 seconds and a double condi cleanse each 25 seconds build player. It's more of a l2p issue than anything else, because it's a relatively new build.

[Ziggityzog.7389]

Just had a normal experience with a mesmer.

It's awesome being stun locked while I have to figure out which of the 10 copies is the real one all the while having 20 stacks of torment and confusion on me. Oh and I did use my stun break awith my double dodge as a reaper but guess what more cc and conditions with no skill required as soon as I do.

All it took was a few skills from him and I'm useless. What a amazing skillful build ...lol. funny how a broken class can turn a noob into a pro without even having to know the skills. Just mash the keyboard to dodge everything and win.

[Dreddo.9865]

@"DigiQWill.6378" said:1: Jaunt and PR are minor teleports. They can do so much in this Swiftness/Leap/mobility meta where nearly all classes can outrun those two, even in the shortest of races to catch up.

2: Minor cleansing and major cleansing are two very different things, as their names suggest. One is a "cleanse one", one is a "cleanse 3 or more". Most builds can only cleanse a condition at the time, meaning you only get to cleanse stuff like chill or poison before immobilization. Cleanse priority isn't on CI Mirage's fault, is it?

3: just like if you find that window to fight the Mirage you are encountering, it's going to melt. :) And let's not talk about 3 clones distortion, or their random reset on their F4. A good scrapper can chain even more damage mitigation, same with Holosmith, Spellbreaker, most Guardian builds, Thief, Herald, heck even Soulbeast have equal to more damage mitigation.

Now, to make it clear: CI Interrupt is freaking annoying. But if ya'll trashtalkers are as good as you say you are, you should know that this build has a lot of ways to be countered. Bursts of damage, condi or power based, melt through it if well timed. Any bunker build should 100% stall forever and even get node ownership over time. And that's coming from a one condi cleanse each 10 seconds and a double condi cleanse each 25 seconds build player. It's more of a l2p issue than anything else, because it's a relatively new build.

Jaunt and PR are direction changers, Jaunt also a shadowstep that can port on ledges. I appreciate the effort but to save you the trouble I am not new to the game, I know well what each skill does.

Each class per design has access to minor or major cleanses as you like to put it. For example revenant (speaking of sPvP meta builds) doesn't have access to major cleanses, most Spellbreakers will start with "Shake it off" which is a major cleanse, etc But there is absolutely no class without some condi cleanse method in sPvP. This is a false statement. The level a player might spec this feat is dependent on his build, skill, team/enemy comp, etc but always there is some.

Now almost two years have passed and every season we discover something new about the mirage. What does this tell you? Why shouldn't we discover ...something new about the poor elementalist for a change? Either we all 'trashtalkers' are wrong or maybe something ain't right from the beginning.

[Tayga.3192]

@Dreddo.9865 said:Why shouldn't we discover ...something new about the poor elementalist for a change?

We should, and we did, it's called fire weaver. Not 85% of the weavers play mender stuff anymore.

[Nekromalistik.7045]

The one that needs nerf is the mirage, the mesmer and chrono are fine. Maybe we should be more specific when we say something is broken

[ZeroTheCat.2684]

@Ziggityzog.7389 said:Just had a normal experience with a mesmer.

It's awesome being stun locked while I have to figure out which of the 10 copies is the real one all the while having 20 stacks of torment and confusion on me. Oh and I did use my stun break awith my double dodge as a reaper but guess what more cc and conditions with no skill required as soon as I do.

All it took was a few skills from him and I'm useless. What a amazing skillful build ...lol. funny how a broken class can turn a noob into a pro without even having to know the skills. Just mash the keyboard to dodge everything and win.

A necro complaining about balance... Oh the irony.

[Equinox.1463]

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@"DigiQWill.6378" said:1: Jaunt and PR are minor teleports. They can do so much in this Swiftness/Leap/mobility meta where nearly all classes can outrun those two, even in the shortest of races to catch up.

2: Minor cleansing and major cleansing are two very different things, as their names suggest. One is a "cleanse one", one is a "cleanse 3 or more". Most builds can only cleanse a condition at the time, meaning you only get to cleanse stuff like chill or poison before immobilization. Cleanse priority isn't on CI Mirage's fault, is it?

3: just like if you find that window to fight the Mirage you are encountering, it's going to melt. :) And let's not talk about 3 clones distortion, or their random reset on their F4. A good scrapper can chain even more damage mitigation, same with Holosmith, Spellbreaker, most Guardian builds, Thief, Herald, heck even Soulbeast have equal to more damage mitigation.

Now, to make it clear: CI Interrupt is freaking annoying. But if ya'll trashtalkers are as good as you say you are, you should know that this build has a lot of ways to be countered. Bursts of damage, condi or power based, melt through it if well timed. Any bunker build should 100% stall forever and even get node ownership over time. And that's coming from a one condi cleanse each 10 seconds and a double condi cleanse each 25 seconds build player. It's more of a l2p issue than anything else, because it's a relatively new build.

Jaunt and PR are direction changers, Jaunt also a shadowstep that can port on ledges. I appreciate the effort but to save you the trouble I am not new to the game, I know well what each skill does.

That sure does sound like you do. I won't argue on that ^^Each class per design has access to minor or major cleanses as you like to put it. For example revenant (speaking of sPvP meta builds) doesn't have access to major cleanses, most Spellbreakers will start with "Shake it off" which is a major cleanse, etc But there is absolutely no class without some condi cleanse method in sPvP. This is a false statement. The level a player might spec this feat is dependent on his build, skill, team/enemy comp, etc but always there is some.

I will suggest rereading what I posted. I specifically mentioned most builds have access to it (I should have said all builds to be quite honest) but that CI Mirage takes ground into neutralizing those builds that cannot cleanse a lot of conditions.Now almost two years have passed and every season we discover

something new

about the mirage. What does this tell you? Why shouldn't we discover ...something new about the poor elementalist for a change? Either we all 'trashtalkers' are wrong or maybe something ain't right from the beginning.

Someone mentioned how we discoverred Fire Weaver. I will add to that how we discoverred Str Spb, Sic Em Slb, Herald to an extent. You are exaggerating the amount of builds Mesmer is found to be semi viable in Ranked. We found sScepter 2 seasons ago, 3 seasons before that maybe Sage's, and a bit before that Carrion Ineptitude. If, for some reasons, MMR and Magebane Tether were nerfed, we'd see a new Spb build pop. If even SD Thief was nerfed, we'd probably see something new there too. Your argument is one that applies to not only Mesmer, as far as I can see. And I am not suggesting nerfs to said professions, they are there as mere examples.

Quite litterally you are nitpicking at the smallest details that you dislike about Mesmer and asking for nerfs on them. "Nerf daze mantra, nerf CI, nerf their evade and invuln frames, nerf their illusion making, nerf basically all that makes Mesmer unique and let us have a class where it's just what we would not have botherred with. And let's call nerfs on all its shatters too because it is Mesmer." <= Humoristic approach as to how Mesmer has always been treated by anyone who doesn't bother to learn the class. Or by how it is treated by people who sinply dislike Mesmers.

[Ziggityzog.7389]

@ZeroTheCat.2684 said:

@Ziggityzog.7389 said:Just had a normal experience with a mesmer.

It's awesome being stun locked while I have to figure out which of the 10 copies is the real one all the while having 20 stacks of torment and confusion on me. Oh and I did use my stun break awith my double dodge as a reaper but guess what more cc and conditions with no skill required as soon as I do.

All it took was a few skills from him and I'm useless. What a amazing skillful build ...lol. funny how a broken class can turn a noob into a pro without even having to know the skills. Just mash the keyboard to dodge everything and win.

A necro complaining about balance... Oh the irony.

As a reaper main I can say I have a right. Scourges are just spam aoe trash.

[Carnifex.3275]

2nd post..

[Carnifex.3275]

I'd give up condi for power. Make power mirage a thing again and u can take that condi build and nerf it to the ground. I was always sick how Anet is pushing condi rather then power on mesmers. Power mesmer now feels so handicapped it's not even funny. But until then.. u cannot nerf condi mirage. Cuz it's the only way mesmer can stay competetive. It already had it's nerfs (jaunt nerf/mirage cloak nerf/Shatters blind nerf!!!/10CD on evasive mirror etcetc. what do you want more?) and further nerfs would make it obsolete. Simple as that. Instead of "nerf that nerf that" maybe try to think what can you give mesmer in return. I'd say give us a decent 1v1 duelist power build and we'll be more then happy. To this day i never encountered main mesmers who are enjoying condi. Every mesmer is playing it just cuz they are forced to. I mean.. look at Thief. Over the years ppl cried bout it in forums and what happened? Thief became a seriously crippled class. Like 80% of thief mains either left the game entirely or had to re-roll to other classes.

[Evil.1580]

@Dave.6819 said:I'd give up condi for power.

Currently, power can 1 shot 3 people at the same time in under a sec, from stealth. Both condi and power need a nerf.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@mortrialus.3062 said:People have finally gotten wise to Chaotic Interruption Condi, eh?

I T B E G I N S

It only took several head scratching nerfs to power and portal.

[Bazooka.3590]

and nerf holos to the ground plz

[Vancho.8750]

The daze mirage is so infuriating to play against that even if you win you feel like you don't want to play anymore. This build is the equivalent of playing with lag spikes, how do you manage to make a class that simulates the feeling of lagging internet. We need people in pvp but if the meta builds are all cheese no one will continue to play, and the king of cheese now is mesmer.

[phokus.8934]

@everyman.4375 said:Let's be honest here, if people actually bothered to change their build when there's 2 mirage in the enemy team, we wouldn't see as much complaints ...

But those builds are on meta battle and they can’t deviate from that.

What I learned today from this thread is that the majority of players who complain about Mesmer also die to beasts.

[Tayga.3192]

@Vancho.8750 said:The daze mirage is so infuriating to play against that even if you win you feel like you don't want to play anymore.

Mesmer is supposed to be annoying to duel anyway (without being overpowered). It's built around that, like how warrior is like a weapon master with mobility (without magic), strength and defenses.

[Vancho.8750]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:The daze mirage is so infuriating to play against that even if you win you feel like you don't want to play anymore.

Mesmer is supposed to be annoying to duel anyway (without being overpowered). It's built around that, like how warrior is like a weapon master with mobility (without magic), strength and defenses.

Thats cool and all but should it make me alt F4 even if beat his ass and win the game after a slog. CC on itself is defense on top of the condi cc and the active defenses at least you get to hit warriors (even though Rampage needs cd shave to 135 seconds base and that magic homing rock needs better animation).We have problem with the population and if people just stunlock you till you die no one will stick around. I've seen in multiple other games that they reduced the easy access to ccs to the point where they are only on big abilities or with the requirement of combinations or skill shots, there you think they got you, here you feel like you are just spammed to death. Losing control for long time is not fun and long time here is under 5 seconds.This whole thing applies to holosmith, warrior in rampage and basically anything that can do raid cc rotation till you die.

[crepuscular.9047]

it seems like Anet have a reluctancy to nerf it HARD to the point of unplayable like what happened to other classes, it's their most unique class they ever came up with

• remove the ability of mirage to use mirage cloak, it's way too powerful compared to the conventional dodge, they already have plenty of extremely useful utilities
• cutdown the damage potential of staff, it just feels so brain dead to play

[praqtos.9035]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:The daze mirage is so infuriating to play against that even if you win you feel like you don't want to play anymore.

Mesmer is supposed to be annoying to duel anyway (without being overpowered). It's built around that, like how warrior is like a weapon master with mobility (without magic), strength and defenses.

Thats cool and all but should it make me alt F4 even if beat his kitten and win the game after a slog.Well, wont be missed. Better to not have such people that ruin the game with their outcries and defend their broken stuff (warrior need unblockable dodge to be nerfed as well, just as every skill in rampage by 50%).CC on itself is defense on top of the condi cc and the active defenses at least you get to hit warriors (even though Rampage needs cd shave to 135 seconds base and that magic homing rock needs better animation).Active defenses was nerfed to the ground and vigor access was trashed across the board for mesmer, even at core level. Warrior can outdodge mesmer even without running any vigor.We have problem with the population and if people just stunlock you till you die no one will stick around. I've seen in multiple other games that they reduced the easy access to ccs to the point where they are only on big abilities or with the requirement of combinations or skill shots, there you think they got you, here you feel like you are just spammed to death. Losing control for long time is not fun and long time here is under 5 seconds.

This whole thing applies to holosmith, warrior in rampage and basically anything that can do raid cc rotation till you die.

And then you have biased monkeys defend their broken classes and think its fine because otherwise they know they will be dwelling somewhere in gold-silver. All they can do is complain about other classes they struggle to l2p against.As someone mentioned chaos interrupt was a MEME since forever but when its became a thing... you know when memes come true thats a huge indication of a problem, thats mean everything else is so trash so you have to play meme stuff now. The amount of wrong nerfs mesmer recieved is mind boggling, from huge variety of builds its downgraded to MEME interruption and thats all thanks to this "knowledgable community".P.S chaos interruption shouldnt immobilize, ,ever.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@"crepuscular.9047" said:it seems like Anet have a reluctancy to nerf it HARD to the point of unplayable like what happened to other classes, it's their most unique class they ever came up with

• remove the ability of mirage to use mirage cloak, it's way too powerful compared to the conventional dodge, they already have plenty of extremely useful utilities
• cutdown the damage potential of staff, it just feels so brain dead to play

1 - MC was already nerfed hard:Vigor uptime got nerfed to the point mes is now one of the professions with the least vigor uptime on game.MC got cut down by 0.25sec which means all ambushes and most attacks aren't covered by dodge, taking out the whole mirage mechanic.There's not a single main profession mechanic that was destroyed this way. It's the equivalent of ANet saying " now that necros are used to play with shroud we decided to cut life force by half, all life force granted by skills cut by half too and we duplicated the life force degen, have fun!", "now that eles are used to elemental attunement we decided to up the elemental cd by +half. Have fun!", "now that thieves are used to the initiative system we decided to halve the initiative, have fun!", and so on.

2 - staff is a defensive weapon, apart from ambush pressure, staff damage is low.

[Koen.1327]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:it seems like Anet have a reluctancy to nerf it HARD to the point of unplayable like what happened to other classes, it's their most unique class they ever came up with

• remove the ability of mirage to use mirage cloak, it's way too powerful compared to the conventional dodge, they already have plenty of extremely useful utilities
• cutdown the damage potential of staff, it just feels so brain dead to play

1 - MC was already nerfed hard:Vigor uptime got nerfed to the point mes is now one of the professions with the least vigor uptime on game.MC got cut down by 0.25sec which means all ambushes and most attacks aren't covered by dodge, taking out the whole mirage mechanic.There's not a single main profession mechanic that was destroyed this way. It's the equivalent of ANet saying " now that necros are used to play with shroud we decided to cut life force by half, all life force granted by skills cut by half too and we duplicated the life force degen, have fun!", "now that eles are used to elemental attunement we decided to up the elemental cd by +half. Have fun!", "now that thieves are used to the initiative system we decided to halve the initiative, have fun!", and so on.

2 - staff is a defensive weapon, apart from ambush pressure, staff damage is low.

its mostly just recent that mirages take CI and pistol, but with BD you still get easy 80%+ vigor up time - which is more like one of highest vigor uptimes.in addition i think MC isn't trashed enough yet, as long as you can still dodge while hard cc'dthe duration of MC is less relevant for your own attacks, but more for your opponent's attacks (its duration). I don't think it was ever fair that you could accidentally dodge stuff because MC was so long.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Koen.1327 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:it seems like Anet have a reluctancy to nerf it HARD to the point of unplayable like what happened to other classes, it's their most unique class they ever came up with

• remove the ability of mirage to use mirage cloak, it's way too powerful compared to the conventional dodge, they already have plenty of extremely useful utilities
• cutdown the damage potential of staff, it just feels so brain dead to play

1 - MC was already nerfed hard:Vigor uptime got nerfed to the point mes is now one of the professions with the least vigor uptime on game.MC got cut down by 0.25sec which means all ambushes and most attacks aren't covered by dodge, taking out the whole mirage mechanic.There's not a single main profession mechanic that was destroyed this way. It's the equivalent of ANet saying " now that necros are used to play with shroud we decided to cut life force by half, all life force granted by skills cut by half too and we duplicated the life force degen, have fun!", "now that eles are used to elemental attunement we decided to up the elemental cd by +half. Have fun!", "now that thieves are used to the initiative system we decided to halve the initiative, have fun!", and so on.

2 - staff is a defensive weapon, apart from ambush pressure, staff damage is low.

its mostly just recent that mirages take CI and pistol, but with BD you still get easy 80%+ vigor up time - which is more like one of highest vigor uptimes.in addition i think MC isn't trashed enough yet, as long as you can still dodge while hard cc'dthe duration of MC is less relevant for your own attacks, but more for your opponent's attacks (its duration). I don't think it was ever fair that you could accidentally dodge stuff because MC was so long.

You have to spec 3 traits to have still less vigor than most of other professions with 1 or 2 traits.Sure thing take out the mc while stunned but give back the 1 sec mc and speed time, or do you want it just to become a worse dodge? Because apart from the "while stunned" it already is.The duration of mc is relevant for your own attacks, axe 2 and ambushes were all design taking long cast times in mind. 0.75sec mc was the beta version, don't know if you recall but everyone agreed it was clunky and straight-up bad, heck, mirage was voted one of the worst elite pof specs back than (worst as in trash).