Teapot Quitting? Is this the beginning of the end?

[KROW.2673]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:You know the game is over when a cooking utensil refuses to play...

I love you xD ty for that, was having a rough day but that was the gut buster I needed <3

[Brother.1504]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:Where are people getting the hard data that supports massively declining playerbase? I've seen no numbers other than the infograph last released.

What I have noticed during these bonus events is the AP numbers on players in squads. I am surprised to see soo many with APs below, say, 8000; and especially below 2000. It seems to indicate quite a few newer players here.

Personal experience. I have observed the same trend. Met and in some way helped lots of new people in open world pve and Wvw. The bonus events seem to be popular.

[Ashantara.8731]

@"zealex.9410" said:Its a form of entertainment, which in it of it self is heavily subjective. I personally dont understand how ppl still bother watching normal tv.

"Normal tv" offers a variety of content. At least in my country, this includes scientific news and documentaries etc. It can be a lot more educational than streaming the latest episode of your favorite US tv show, and certainly more educational than watching YouTube streamers' boring content.

[sigur.9453]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:Its a form of entertainment, which in it of it self is heavily subjective. I personally dont understand how ppl still bother watching normal tv.

"Normal tv" offers a variety of content. At least in my country, this includes scientific news and documentaries etc. It can be a lot more educational than streaming the latest episode of your favorite US tv show, and certainly more educational than watching YouTube streamers' boring content.

"normal TV" also contains RTL and Programms on similar "educational value" .Like YouTube, twitch and streaming service, there is obviously a huge variety of content with various quality. But thanks for sharing your opinion.

[maddoctor.2738]

@dodgerrule.8739 said:The developers do their own streams for a reason. Other streamers can’t show off what they can better.

Like when the developers of this game were showing the elite specs of Heart of Thorns and the lead developer of Tempest nearly died to Svanir in the Heart of the Mists. Developers show their own streams, but they aren't always good at playing the game they are developing. Which is probably why balance has so many issues.

[KROW.2673]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:Its a form of entertainment, which in it of it self is heavily subjective. I personally dont understand how ppl still bother watching normal tv.

"Normal tv" offers a variety of content. At least in my country, this includes scientific news and documentaries etc. It can be a lot more educational than streaming the latest episode of your favorite US tv show, and certainly more educational than watching YouTube streamers' boring content.

Um, you do realize YouTube has a plethora of educational content right? All without ads and commercials as well (provided you use AdBlock). TV is vastly inferior, every 15 minutes is 5 minutes of commercials. Sorry, but if I want a Schick Hydro I'll be googling and YouTubing reviews on it long before I buy it; even then I'm trying to relax at the end of the day and watch something I enjoy uninterrupted. Plus you have the added bonus of being able to pause the YouTube video should you need to, TV's just gonna keep going (DVRs is no excuse, why pay more for something YouTube does for free?). Watch what you want, but you classifying YouTube as 'YouTube streamers' shows you really don't have a clue as to what kind of platform YouTube is xD

[Dante.1763]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"zealex.9410" said:Its a form of entertainment, which in it of it self is heavily subjective. I personally dont understand how ppl still bother watching normal tv.

"Normal tv" offers a variety of content. At least in my country, this includes scientific news and documentaries etc. It can be a lot more educational than streaming the latest episode of your favorite US tv show, and certainly more educational than watching YouTube streamers' boring content.

Yea..shouldnt have thrown youtube up there, the actual educational material on there is phenomenal in both the amount of content and quality of said content, especially compared to TV these days.

[maddoctor.2738]

@dodgerrule.8739 said:If you’d rather watch a streamer play then not play the game yourself it shows you’re not interested.

I don't watch Teapot's streams, heck I don't watch any streams regarding Guild Wars 2, because I find this game boring to watch. But I watch streams of other games that I enjoy a lot. Games that I'm very interested in, that also have content suitable for streaming. Saying that people watching streamers play shows they aren't interested makes absolutely no sense and is an insult to anyone watching streams, while at the same time being interested to the games they play.

[Kain Francois.4328]

@"Ze Dos Cavalos.6132" said:So what if Teapot quits?

Basically, there's a worrying trend of GW2 personalities quitting the game. This appears to be as a result of the game upates snubbing its own hardcore playerbase and neglecting game modes like WvW.

---

First, to established why they are quitting:

For nearly two years the develeloper focus has been almost exclusively on LS4. But LS4 has all been very mediocre from a hardcore player perspective. Despite the high production values of the story, none of them seemed to have any challenge motes and repeatable group content. They were all undertuned, handhold-y messes that gave you infinite respawns, and the handholding got worse over time. You barely even use your own skillbar in LS4Ep6, despite being the literal finale of the season.

However, it's not that the Living Story instance are easy that upset the hardcore playerbase. It's the fact there wasn't even a difficulty setting to keep them interested. Bosses like Palawa Joko, Kralkatorrik's Torment, etc... would've made for fantastic group bosses. Gandara itself would've been an amazing dungeon. And the developers just didn't do anything with it. So the hardcore player, continuously over the past 2 years, witnesses such amazing production value and characters by the developers, but they're all directed towards players who barely understand game mechanics. It's like continuously watching your brother get gifts, and then Santa gives you a pair of old socks for Christmas.

It's not just the living story that disappointed the hardcore playerbase. The open wold events were underwhelming. Istan was okay at first when looked at as a farm map, but it was heavily nerfed. Sandswept Isles most of the hardcore players just swept under the rug as a more exploration-focused area without any central metas. But by the time Gandara came around, people were ready for a multi-lane event, and they disappointed people with something too easy, anticlimatic, and short. Then with Jahai it was just a copy of the Shatterer who still didn't challenge players, and the whole map just lacked a sort of central goal. Thunderhead Keep was too easy with its own meta events, and nothing interesting to do between them. And then Dragon's Fall didn't have anything engaging at the end despite being a multilane meta similar to Dragon's Stand, except Dragon Fall was devoid of difficulty. (And Dragon's Stand isn't even that hard..)

This brings to light another problem with GW2: Power creep. All the once challenging wold bosses like Tequatl, Chak Gerent, even the Silvewastes breach itself (yes, it used to be challenging), were all either nerfed or could not keep up with the power creep introduced by elite specs. Since PoF, they double-down on the power creep, and now most meta-events have an unfailable status. People clear Tequatl just by autoatacking (AUTOATTACKING!!!!). The hardcore players who once had joy grouping with others to take down a really powerful foe now have nowhere to go.

Perhaps the most offensive thing done to the hardcore playerbase recently was how the Wing 7 raid was handled. Firstly, this marks the time we've only had ONE raid per year! The amount of content it offered was just way too short after all the... waiting. Then was the legendary ring, Coalesence, which people anticipated since 2017. All we got was a copy of Aurora unless we paired it with the other legendary rings (and we couldn't even craft more than one.. what were we to do with legendary divinations?). But the MOST offensive thing about Wing 7, the most singlehandedly abhorrent thing that was so disrespectful to its audience, was how the trailer was handled. It was a poorly put together trailer just showing Qadim's idle animation... and his hands clipped... in the trailer... Meanwhile, Living Story receives cinematic-level quality for its trailers... The subtext of the Wing 7 trailer was like: "We don't care about raiders, we're not going spend any effort promoting it."

(Edit: Oh yeah. They abandoned Fractal CMs since 2017 and haven't spoken a word about it since... )

Furthermore, and worse of all, the tone of the playerbase has taken a very aggressive and toxic turn aimed towards the hardcore playerbase. So much so that a minority on reddit coined the terms "Toxic Casual" and "Casual Inquisition". Any criticism of the game is harshly suppressed by "Toxic Casuals" saying things like "If you don't like GW2 THEN GO PLAY ANOTHER GAME!!!!", and accusing the most passionate playerbase of being "elitist" for simply suggesting content should be able to be failed. The dialect has reached such a point that even ideas from the hardcore playerbase trying to compromise with the casual playerbase, such as the idea of more Easy Mode raids (like Frosty the Snowman), are being aggressively shot down, accompanied by insults. You need look no further than this very thread where some posters are insulting Mightyteapot despite never seeing his content before, and attempting to dehumanize him. What a disgusting and shameful thing that the so-called "friendliest MMO" is doing to its own passionate member after all the work they have done for this community.

---

Now, to established why content creators matter:

The lifeblood of an MMO is its players. Not advertisements. Not corporate shilling one's own game. But the playerbase and word of mount.

Philosophically-speaking, you can't solo a world boss. That is because GW2 is about playing together and community. Seeing other players is why we log in every day. Without community, this game would stagnate.

First, I must establish what content creators do for this community:

Having emphasized the importance of a healthy playerbase, the natural evolution of passionate fans are conent creation and adoration. You see this in anime where people make fanart, reviews, parodies, etc... and you see this in video games like Gw2 as well. People make and watch guides, build videos, guild halls, PvP/WvW, fractals/raids, etc... Fan-driven content is a celebration of the game we love.

Typically at the top of passion we have content creators like Woodenpotatoes, of which OVER 137,000 PEOPLE WATCH HIS VIDEOS. His recent balance video had 26,000 views. Of those viewers, Woodenpotatoes has an amazing reach to talk about the game. But more importantly: His videos keep people engaged with the game.

The biggest strength of Living World isn't the 2 hour easy instances you play once and never again. Rather, it's being able to speculate with others the awesome direction this story is heading, and discuss it. It's seeing Woodenpotatoes' lore videos, reddit theory threads, and talking about it in map chat. In other words, the strength of Living World is its ability to generate buzz in the community. It generates fan-driven content while we wait for the next episode.

Fan-drive content isn't just a celebration of GW2. It keeps the playerbase active, engaged, and interested in the game. And popular personalities like Woodenpotatoes have more reach than someone like you or me in this thread. They get the ball rolling in the discussions. That is why content creators are so important for keeping players interested.

---

Now, to establish why content creators help the game grow:

BUZZ!

When things like a really hard raid is released, view count on Twitch SKYROCKETS!

It gets people talking!

When people from other MMOs ask about GW2, they don't ask about fashion wars or living story. They ask about endgame and raids. Then they check the GW2 community out of curiosity, they see a lot of discussion, they see Gw2 active on Twitch, and BOOM! They take an interest.

That isn't to say GW2 must depend on Twitch. But rather to say that content platforms like Youtube and Twitch are very important in the "word of mouth" advertising that developers themselves envisioned for GW2.

When people want to join GW2, they aren't looking at roller beetles, cars, taxis, or whatever the "AAAAAAAAH!" marketing blunder was about. They want a game with a passionate playerbase and a fun endgame that will keep them engaged long after the main story is complete. And content creator personalities allow people to gauge how much people invest their hearts into this game.

I'm not necessarily saying that a game must rely exclusively on Twitch, raids, or extremely difficult content. But when you have a really difficult goal that people celebrate once accomplishing (such as Tequatl wold first before power creep/nerfs), it's a joyous occasions. That joy is contagious, and makes people want to be a part of that. Not just to join the game, but also invest into the endgame that allows them to do those things.

Aside from raids and difficult content, the content creation themselves are the most powerful forms of advertisement. You need look no further than the Touhou series and fan videos like Marisa Stole the Precious Thing, which singlehandedly skyrocketed Touhou's popularity on the internet and made it one of the top game series for fanart on sites like danbooru despite being an indie game. Then you have cases like TF2, which credits a lot of its popularity to the Gmod videos and memes people used to make half a decade ago.

Also, I want to repeat that the popularity of the Touhou series can be credited to content creators like IOSYS making fan music videos. Today the Touhou series has 618,000 pieces of fanart on danbooru alone, and probably in the millions on Pixiv.

Fan videos are important. A game should keep its content creators happy because they are the outreach to share this amazing game with others.

---

Why a game should be worried if its most passionate players leave:

Without content creation, without big names to get discussion rolling, this game would stagnate. People would only log in once every four months to see living world, and that's a horrible thing to admit about a game.

Above all else, your content creators jumping ship is like the canary in the coal mine. To put it bluntly, it's because the hardcore players can see problems that casuals only superficially interested in the game don't realize yet, which may surface later. What impacts the hardcore playerbase ultimately affects the casuals as well. (Especially since not everyone is a casual forever.)

The profits and playercount might be okay right now. But if this game keeps heading in the same direction, it's going to become a bigger problem.

---

There is a lesson to be learned by all this.

Typically in a game like GW2, ALL players matter. But somewhere along the way (specifically since PoF), this game has become something like "only casuals matter".

When you have game updates that seem to have abandoned you as a player, and a mean playerbase chasing you out of the village with pitchfork and torches, it's no wonder people leave. And in this case, Guild Wars 2 is cannibalizing its most passionate players.

As someone with the Guild Wars series since 2006, I only wish GW2 goes back to being a game where ALL players matter, not just one or the other.

edit: For clarity sake, the issue isn't that mightyteapot is quitting. The issue is a lot of GW2 personalities are quitting, and what it means for our community.

[Dante.1763]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@"Ze Dos Cavalos.6132" said:

Typically in a game like GW2, ALL players matter. But somewhere along the way (specifically since PoF), this game has become something like "only casuals matter".

When you have game updates that seem to have abandoned you as a player, and a mean playerbase chasing you out of the village with pitchfork and torches, it's no wonder people leave. And in this case, Guild Wars 2 is cannibalizing its most passionate players.

As someone with the Guild Wars series since 2006, I only wish GW2 goes back to being a game where ALL players matter, not just one or the other.

Many words there, so i just clipped it down to the final paragraph. Almost all of what you said is true.

However, the reason they are probably focusing on the "Casual"(Im assuming you mean those who dont raid here? What definition of casual are you using. Im as a casual player by my definition, and i raid.) Is because of the statistics they have on populations doing content. Statistics we cant even get true numbers on. We get rough estimates and percentages from players who use the services that track those. Plus with the release of HoT, and the massive outcry against the difficulty spike(which was a really large population of the game), im not surprised by their decisions to focus on the casual player.

Even with raids they seem to be heading that route with the latest release, and i doubt they are just making arbitrary decisions.

[dodgerrule.8739]

If twitch numbers mattered for guild wars 2 as much as people claim then there would have been a noticeable difference in players in game when it was a large streamer base.

[Kain Francois.4328]

@dodgerrule.8739 said:If twitch numbers mattered for guild wars 2 as much as people claim then there would have been a noticeable difference in players in game when it was a large streamer base.

It's not about the instant reaction. It's about the whole.

Twitch numbers mean a game is healthy.

[Dreams.3128]

The fact people watch others PVE in this game astounds me. WOW.That's the equivalent of watching paint dry.

No matter if gw2 is a bad game to stream, at least the PVP is more interesting to watch then someone going through farming, doing raids, and running around maps. Hell, other mmos you can at least duel people while you wait or other stuff, but streaming gw2 PVE? Literally, I see why there is so little views on the PVE side. There is barely anything to take in.

[Dami.5046]

I don't think some of you will be happy until this game does die or Anet say they are closing it.As it happens I came across Tpot late in the day and saw his streams with some other streamers. Gah. anyway.I went ahead and watched a raid one. Lovely explaining what to do where to go. superThen I noticed on his necro he had just spammed skill one.so many have a lot to say about these builds and rotations you need and considering how elitist that area of the game has become, In a few minutes he made aMockery of it all.Must be quite easy to heal in raids.

[witcher.3197]

@dodgerrule.8739 said:If you’d rather watch a streamer play then not play the game yourself it shows you’re not interested.

This just shows how little you understand about the topic and how little you care about the game itself.

I assume that after you're done playing, you go and do something else in your sparetime. Read a book, watch a show, walk the dog, whatever.

But there are people who, when they are done playing, go and seek out GW2 content on twitch or youtube for entertainment or to learn something new.

Which type of player is more interested? The first or the second?

[Dante.1763]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Dante.1763" said:Plus with the release of HoT, and the massive outcry against the difficulty spike(which was a really large population of the game), im not surprised by their decisions to focus on the casual player.

HoT was difficult to navigate (only "solved" when mounts appeared). The so called difficulty spike outcry was misguided at best1) Most of the hardest hitting mobs that we got in Season 2 were nerfed to the ground when Heart of Thorns was released, I guess players "forgot" what they were fighting before and assumed that the expansions were so much harder when in reality they weren't.2) Mobs in Path of Fire are much harder to deal with than in Heart of Thorns yet we get very little complaints about it, and even less changes in mob difficulty. Maybe the mistake of Heart of Thorns was adding in the first zone, Verdant Brink, challenging mobs, while in Path of Fire the more challenging mobs appear (in greater numbers) at a much later zone, where most of the bad players won't even reach.

Other than the nerf to the Itzel Shadowleaper's evade ability, there weren't any massive mob skill reductions from release. There were a lot from the beta but I'm not count the beta here.

For me at least, mobs in HoT are harder than those in POF, its why i skip fighting them since theres really no point in trying unless im doing events.

I never noticed the mobs in POF being hard, except on my ele due to her low HP. But you might be right about how they handled where the harder mobs are placed.

I was also sort of counting the beta, as thats where alot of the rage over difficulty came from. Sure it wasnt the real release, but if they would have just thrown the game out there, it would have been.

[AsiraasiB.7165]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@"AsiraasiB.7165" said:I knew this game was dying when youtubers like yishis(thief/engi) and that iamlegion( best necro videos ever) quit back in like 2016. They cared about the game.. Made excellent videos indeth specially iamlegion. And yet suggestions fell to death ears and changes/nerfs drove them out the game...

Theres other youtubers but those two stuck with me the mostHeck ive quit multiple times due to thief nerfs.. Im on osrs nowadays because of gw2 "balance"

I thought I am Legion quit due to real life circumstances..

But yes I agree he made the best Necro videos ^^ and always backed his builds up against others who would criticize his superior Necro knowledge.

From what i heard real life coupled with the balance

[Lubat.8516]

Dont think he quit, i just watched his streams on the balance patch.

[Thundabolt.8541]

I don't think a community-celebrity's attendance is going to affect the final fate of any game. I've actually never heard of this teapot chap myself.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Streamers are marketing. That is the point of the partners program. Anet does pays its streamers, but it is based on commissions, pretty much all have an affilent links. Its another bad sign when the streamers go, kinda a canary in the coal mine. Adds to the list of other things that have happened this year.DnT retires from raidingDulfy stops updating her site

Teapot leaving for the veterans is like if woodenpotatoes left for the casuals.

[Trise.2865]

England left the European Union. Does that mean the EU is dead or dying? Though some trolls may disagree, no. No, it does not.

No segment of a community, no matter its size, is representative of the entire community. No single streamer, or even group of streamers, have the ability to kill a game by not playing it (unless the game survives purely on memes, like [X] "Simulator" or PUBG), nor do the streamers' audiences reflect anything but their own individual, segmented communities. For proof of that look no further than these very forums. The Forumites are their own community, separate from the GW2 community at large, and even they are separated into their own factions, because "don't people just love creating conflicts and artificial divisions between themselves?"... and we seem to like it that way.

Quite frankly, a streamer/content producer is hurting themselves by linking their fortune to any single game, and vice versa.

[Tren.5120]

@dodgerrule.8739 said:The developers do their own streams for a reason. Other streamers can’t show off what they can better.

Developers tend to be worse at playing their own games than elite players. I have yet to play an MMORPG where this wasn't the case.

They run their own stream to bamboozle you with marketing & PR speak. That's all. They aren't the only entity that does this, either.

[KROW.2673]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Okami.7049 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@rabenpriester.7129 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:OK ... but watching a streamer isn't marketing. Anet doesn't control the message.

OK... I guess all the companies paying streamers thousands of dollars per hour to play their game are doing it wrong...

Maybe. I'm not a marketing expert. Pretty sure Teapot wasn't being paid $1000's to stream GW2 for Anet, so that comment seems pretty irrelevant.

Just gotta ask: if you're not a marketing expert, which pretty much translates to "I don't know much about how marketing works", why are you even commenting on that particular topic then? You were so adamant before............

Wait a minute ... so EVERYONE commenting in this thread IS a marketing expert ... except me? So you can't comment if you aren't an expert in something now?

I gotta ask you a question then ... are YOU a marketing expert? You're posting in this thread ...

I am a streamer of 2 years, so I do have more 'inside' knowledge than you seem to think xD I've had game companies working with me, offering to compensate me for streaming their games, I've played games where stream and chat were integrated into said game, I've played games where the companies don't care. Statistically, companies that support streamers playing their games tend to rake in far more players than those who don't. Some people like being rewarded for watching their favorite content creator, others seem to stick to their own old ways. Either way's fine, but it's a known fact that games with a high viewership on twitch wind up with higher player-bases. A big reason for that is because a lot of gamers nowadays also base a game's popularity off of how many people are streaming/watching it. I don't agree with that practice, it's very shallow, but that just goes to show how much of an impact a successful game on Twitch has. Small games tend to have smaller viewerships and vice versa. Keyword here is 'tend', btw. It's not true for all circumstances, but it's often moreso than not.

What I was implying at earlier was your clear bigotry on the subject, rather than 'not being an expert', but since you wanna be like all the other toxic content-creator haters on here I'll oblige. You've shown you have no clue as to what you're talking about on the subject and have even stated you don't care for content creators. Your bias is as clear as spring water, and it's not helping your case. Whether you like it or not, streaming and YouTube are both the go-to for ALL game companies nowadays for marketing; whether it be through ads or the streamers themselves is their choice. I don't recall seeing any GW2 commercials on television? In fact, outside of YouTube and Twitch my only exposure to new games is to physically look up a top 10 list, which isn't how it should be done. Back in the day I remember a plethora of commercials geared at MMOs like Wizard101 to WoW and others, even CoD. Now? All I see is beauty products and car commercials. So you tell me, how are these companies supposed to market their games when everything is already so internet heavy, and when YouTube and Twitch are the GIANTS of the content creating world?

[Talindra.4958]

I understand where anet is coming from for not supporting teapot activity. raids community in general is ok, but there are many toxicity in the group in some guild that participated in the events. there are proves that many of the players had been reported for bad behaviour and such.. so arena net did the right thing for not promoting such behaviour. the game itself ofc is of good intent and teapot himself I believe he is a good man, enjoy the game help promoting the game, but lets be real, I know some guys in the game are very toxic and .. u know who and which guild. we do not name. but teapot wont quit heheh.. he loves the game and his guild. :) take it easy dude

[trixantea.1230]

People are quitting becuase there is a content drought in GW2. Anet used to deliver a new episode every 2~3 months and the time between major paid content was between 2~3 years.

Now, the time between episode releases has almost doubled and to hide this lack of content, they release from time to time some "so-called updates" with more gemstore eye candies, rehashed festivals and meaningless balance tweaks.