What's your favourite villain in gw2?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

All these people saying Scarlet, I have to wonder if they played during Season 1 or, if they did, if they're not mistaking nostalgia for a good writing.More likely, it's just that different people like different things about stories.

During LS1 (when it wasn't yet called "Season 1"), it was fashionable to dislike Scarlet. Much of the time, the reasoning was weak and came down to: "I don't like that sort of thing," rather than something substantial. And to be fair, there are constructive critiques of Scarlet.

As it turns out, the very things that some people hated about Scarlet were things that I enjoyed: she was over-the-top and funny, rather than all glum and serious. She had a can-do attitude to rival the Commander. Like the Commander, she had access to infinite resources, only running short for immediate plot needs. And the things that people hated about Scarlet are things I dislike about the Hero in most RPGs (MMOs or single player).

The thing is: I don't go around wondering if people who disliked Scarlet actually played during season 1 or if they're mistaking unfulfilled personal expectations for bad writing. I just chalk it up to a difference of preferences.

[Ryukai.6524]

Praise Joko ?

[Lexi.1398]

Caudecus - the basement wins me over 100x. Closely behind, my second fave is Joko for an equally dumb reason; the jokes and showmanship.

[AgentMoore.9453]

The real villains were the friends we made along the way. :#

[Randulf.7614]

Joko will still be my favourite. It’s just a shame the writers felt the need to throw him away in such pathetic fashion and sweep away a truly interesting non elder dragon threat in the scarab plague before it became anything catastrophic. That whole ep3 was pretty much one of the worst episodes of the living story. They got so little right. Only Jokos monologues and that little bit with the doctor in the house was something that hit home perfectly.

The map, the meta, the death scene - all a major disappointment to me

Scarlet is another missed opportunity, perhaps even more do. The idea of a genuine counter to the commander in strength and intelligence to make a nemesis was a really solid idea. The execution however was dreadful. They partially redeemed her with the lions arch finale and some fleshing out in ls2, but again another potentially great villain they had no idea how to write for.

Writing and story is one of the franchises biggest weaknesses, but I hope one day they can create and do justice to a villain. Perhaps One that isn’t thrown to a baby dragon for a laugh or cries “mummy” in their final moments...

[Ayakaru.6583]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:I feel like we haven't had a proper villain in a while.Scarlet was a lot more interesting when she was still behind the scenes. Her chaotic evil was more.. chaotic.. than enticing.I also had much higher hopes for Joko, what with all the build up throughout gw1 and gw2. He even had the plague at some point, and we only barely get to see it in the same episode he dies.And then there's balthazar. I mean, I get he was weakened, no longer a real god. But come on.. he was the god of WAR! and you can beat him armour-less with auto-attack.At least caudecaus had some air of dignity until the last chapter he appeared in.

The inquest seem like the only proper course left, and thats only if the staff will ever write them a serious role. So far they've had the tools to become the big bad evil but have only acted out of comedic selfishness

We destroy the plague in the meta event of that zone. Seems people forget open world stuff is also part of the story.

Yea, but that happens afterwards. Palawa dies without proficiently utilizing the plague. And with him out of the way we can clear it the gandaran fortress and destroy all plague vessels

Well they weren't going to release the plague on the world. Could you imagine the way that would have affected the entire world. It would be a world altering event, and a whole lot of people would have hated it. And if the plague can't get out, the next best thing is to show plague victims, let them get trapped, show the ghosts charging in because they can get through the barrier even if the plague victims can't...I mean that was a really good scene. And Palawa's death scene was a really good scene too, probably my favorite in the entire game.

So yeah, it's not like they forgot about the plague. Considering it wasn't going to be released, I don't see how that's an actual complaint. He should have done more with the plague? He was preparing to and we stopped him.

Well, obviously not. A ruined tower is the most living world we'll ever get.I was just a little disappointed thst the catalyst of so much lore and spark was cancelled near its limelight.I had expected we'd follow Joko somewhere while dealing with the plague along the way. A quarantined area that would be the map.See some tragedy, some hopelessness. A spark of failure. That would've made the story so much darker and better, and Joko a much hateful villain

[xenon.3264]

mary sue scarlet was great. the story arc was long and she is the only villain who actually changed the world.

i mean we killed zaithan but orr is still infested

we killed joko but still there is no change outside the map.

scarlet 's scars are evertwghere

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Ultramex.1506" said:Gaheron though? Beside his intention of becoming a god, he just yell really loud and doesn't appear anywhere else beside dungeon.

A lot of Gaheron's underused interest comes more from the Flame Legion shamans' actions and mentions of him. From the whole body mutilation ritual coming from Gaheron, to him discovering how to perform resurrections when such magic became extinct in the world, and he was the first charr to actively attempt (and seemingly come close to) some form of godhood (while his "godhood form" was active, he was invulnerable and excessively more powerful).

Gaheron definitely had the potential to be interesting. Sadly, they didn't give him a chance for that potential. Same with Cadeyrn.

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

All these people saying Scarlet, I have to wonder if they played during Season 1 or, if they did, if they're not mistaking nostalgia for a good writing.More likely, it's just that different people like different things about stories.

During LS1 (when it wasn't yet called "Season 1"), it was fashionable to dislike Scarlet. Much of the time, the reasoning was weak and came down to: "I don't like that sort of thing," rather than something substantial. And to be fair, there are constructive critiques of Scarlet.

As someone who was there at the time, that's very much incorrect. People didn't dislike Scarlet because it was "fashionable" to do so. They disliked Scarlet because she was a genuinely poorly written character. Especially with her background story which was the beginning of the dislike for her.

As it turns out, the very things that some people hated about Scarlet were things that I enjoyed: she was over-the-top and funny, rather than all glum and serious. She had a can-do attitude to rival the Commander. Like the Commander, she had access to infinite resources, only running short for immediate plot needs. And the things that people hated about Scarlet are things I dislike about the Hero in most RPGs (MMOs or single player).

Scarlet wasn't really "over the top and funny" - well, she was over the top, but not funny. She was literally directed to be a "British Harley Quinn" - Tara Strong's own words, which people had noticed pretty clearly the moment she had screen time. She had infinite resources, unlike the Commander, and the reasons for these resources were contrived and implausible (somehow managing to convince all the most xenophobic and misogynistic groups to like a foreign, female, individual and work for her). She never came up short for plot needs, but rather, the Commander was the one coming up short because Scarlet got away with everything she wanted every single time. Even in death, the Commander lost to Scarlet because Scarlet still got what she wanted.

She was a by-the-book Mary Sue, who never failed even when the plans of her subordinates failed. She did the literally impossible and illogical without breaking a sweat, and the lore of the game was actively rewritten for the sake of her antics. Even her own background had been rewritten four times because it was just too over the top at first, and even the writers realized it.

I suppose it's possible for people to enjoy Mary Sue flawless characters who never fail, but that doesn't make it a well written character.

[Michram.6853]

Glint :]]]

[Randulf.7614]

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

All these people saying Scarlet, I have to wonder if they played during Season 1 or, if they did, if they're not mistaking nostalgia for a good writing.More likely, it's just that different people like different things about stories.

During LS1 (when it wasn't yet called "Season 1"), it was fashionable to dislike Scarlet. Much of the time, the reasoning was weak and came down to: "I don't like that sort of thing," rather than something substantial. And to be fair, there are constructive critiques of Scarlet.

As it turns out, the very things that some people hated about Scarlet were things that I enjoyed: she was over-the-top and funny, rather than all glum and serious. She had a can-do attitude to rival the Commander. Like the Commander, she had access to infinite resources, only running short for immediate plot needs. And the things that people hated about Scarlet are things I dislike about the Hero in most RPGs (MMOs or single player).

The thing is: I don't go around wondering if people who disliked Scarlet actually played during season 1 or if they're mistaking unfulfilled personal expectations for bad writing. I just chalk it up to a difference of preferences.

I agree with Konig. It wasn’t about jumping on the bandwagon of hate with Scarlet. She was a completely poorly written character. Potential undoubtably, but damaging to the story and at the time, the game too. I’m not convinced anything later did more damage to the game and its population than Scarlet and LS1

It is fine to enjoy that sort of character, people gravitate to whatever they want. It is wrong to say people disliked her simply as a meme of its time though

Scarlet could have been widely praised, but limited writing ability and an unsuitable episode structure hindered her development.

I’m still unconvinced the writing team is particularly strong, however I’m confident that written today, in the current style of Seasons, she would be a much better nemesis and foil for the commander

[Rico.6873]

@Ayakaru.6583 said:I feel like we haven't had a proper villain in a while.Scarlet was a lot more interesting when she was still behind the scenes. Her chaotic evil was more.. chaotic.. than enticing.I also had much higher hopes for Joko, what with all the build up throughout gw1 and gw2. He even had the plague at some point, and we only barely get to see it in the same episode he dies.And then there's balthazar. I mean, I get he was weakened, no longer a real god. But come on.. he was the god of WAR! and you can beat him armour-less with auto-attack.At least caudecaus had some air of dignity until the last chapter he appeared in.

The inquest seem like the only proper course left, and thats only if the staff will ever write them a serious role. So far they've had the tools to become the big bad evil but have only acted out of comedic selfishness

Well an Asura designing something that works and doesn't blow up is something that almost no Asura can do. Your asking for the impossible mate

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Rico.6873 said:

@"Ayakaru.6583" said:I feel like we haven't had a proper villain in a while.Scarlet was a lot more interesting when she was still behind the scenes. Her chaotic evil was more.. chaotic.. than enticing.I also had much higher hopes for Joko, what with all the build up throughout gw1 and gw2. He even had the plague at some point, and we only barely get to see it in the same episode he dies.And then there's balthazar. I mean, I get he was weakened, no longer a real god. But come on.. he was the god of WAR! and you can beat him armour-less with auto-attack.At least caudecaus had some air of dignity until the last chapter he appeared in.

The inquest seem like the only proper course left, and thats only if the staff will ever write them a serious role. So far they've had the tools to become the big bad evil but have only acted out of comedic selfishness

Well an Asura designing something that works and doesn't blow up is something that almost no Asura can do. Your asking for the impossible mate

The irony of this statement. The initial design of asura invention for GW2 was literally "like WoW gnomes but their inventions actually work".

[starlight.6091]

Two Blade Pete B)

[Aylpse.6280]

I strongly disagree with everyone who said "Scarlet". She had potential to be a good villain, however the execution was horrible. She would have been much better if everything was done in reverse. Starting with the attack on Lions Arch and the players would have a personal grudge against her, rather then having Scarlet be one step ahead the player would be foiling her plans and breaking down her forces. (Starting infighting with Molten alliance, Aether blades and Nightmare court.) and eventually taking her out. As mentioned in the post above, she is a mary sue. Using the suggested method I have provided and retconing the Asura collages (One would be fine, sure. All three? Many Asura struggle with just one...) she would have been far more enjoyable.

Rant aside, as for my favorites, I HATED Caduceus. Perhaps due to real world parallels to the deep state, lets be real who actually likes corrupt politicians? So there are some points for him there though he wasn't very compelling.

Several unfinished assets and pieces in the game (now sealed off) suggested at one point, Kudu was going to be the main villain. His connection to Snaff, air of arrogance and deadly ambition prop him above many of the villains. His philosophy (and the philosophy of the Inquest in general) are unfathomably dangerous. To forsake all empathy for the sake of progress. Yeah, lets throw in some unstable elder dragon mojo and see what happens. Kudu didn't mess around (unlike the current Inquest which I can very much liken to a headless chicken. Kudu was the head, in case you were wondering.) when he was on screen you knew there was going to be trouble, dare I say the little shark rat was intimidating to a degree. He had the makings of an excellent villain, its a shame he was axed so soon.

Joko... is Joko... may we take a moment to praise his name, best compared to Dr. Eggman, he's campy, he's fun, he likes to monologue. He's that Saturday morning cartoon villain, a welcome change of pace from things and kept S4 fresh until Kralk took the stage.

Speaking for Kralk, it isn't easy to make an avatar of mindless destruction a sympathetic villain. I personally wasn't too upset about his redemption arc becuse I saw it coming. There had been hints since the base game that the elder Dragons weren't outright malevolent or evil by nature. Mordermoth hammered this in if you look at his dialogue. Grandpa Kralky has played the biggest role of any of the Eds in Gw2. I personally love how alien the brand is and the presentation of this huge mountain sized dragon. Says a lot for how intimidating Kralk is.

[hugo.4705]

I was also here during LS1. The story, yes, was bad. Many characters was badly introduced not only scarlet but also braham and rox. Both in random places assaulted by molten alliance. That town where we found braham, I don't even know its name anymore. For Rox, well was a kind of hatchery for devourers where an albinos one kept following her (frosbite).

Personally I liked Scarlet BECAUSE she had infinite ressources, well a kind of harley queen, but I got more the feeling that she was playing with us as a competition. Each time she appeared it was fast, just to give us trials. Apart the strange end where we just got her with illusions. For me it was a great character, not expecting an awesome flawless story, all the events was cool in my honest eyes that also why there will be always some peoples asking for ls1 comebacks. Ls1 for me was essentially the events and those scarlet trials. I still have good memories from the assault on LA, marionette, scarlet's instances and the fabulous breachmaker theme. And I also don't understand in the other way why some dislike it that much. Sure could have been better, but wasn't the end of the world.

Everyone have the right to see things differently. It doesn't mean that the player hasn't played the content.

[Smoosh.2718]

Big Nose Ted - for letting me smash his ugly mug over and over again for a key.

[Vayne.8563]

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:I feel like we haven't had a proper villain in a while.Scarlet was a lot more interesting when she was still behind the scenes. Her chaotic evil was more.. chaotic.. than enticing.I also had much higher hopes for Joko, what with all the build up throughout gw1 and gw2. He even had the plague at some point, and we only barely get to see it in the same episode he dies.And then there's balthazar. I mean, I get he was weakened, no longer a real god. But come on.. he was the god of WAR! and you can beat him armour-less with auto-attack.At least caudecaus had some air of dignity until the last chapter he appeared in.

The inquest seem like the only proper course left, and thats only if the staff will ever write them a serious role. So far they've had the tools to become the big bad evil but have only acted out of comedic selfishness

We destroy the plague in the meta event of that zone. Seems people forget open world stuff is also part of the story.

Yea, but that happens afterwards. Palawa dies without proficiently utilizing the plague. And with him out of the way we can clear it the gandaran fortress and destroy all plague vessels

Well they weren't going to release the plague on the world. Could you imagine the way that would have affected the entire world. It would be a world altering event, and a whole lot of people would have hated it. And if the plague can't get out, the next best thing is to show plague victims, let them get trapped, show the ghosts charging in because they can get through the barrier even if the plague victims can't...I mean that was a really good scene. And Palawa's death scene was a really good scene too, probably my favorite in the entire game.

So yeah, it's not like they forgot about the plague. Considering it wasn't going to be released, I don't see how that's an actual complaint. He should have done more with the plague? He was preparing to and we stopped him.

Well, obviously not. A ruined tower is the most living world we'll ever get.I was just a little disappointed thst the catalyst of so much lore and spark was cancelled near its limelight.I had expected we'd follow Joko somewhere while dealing with the plague along the way. A quarantined area that would be the map.See some tragedy, some hopelessness. A spark of failure. That would've made the story so much darker and better, and Joko a much hateful villain

So your complaint is misplaced. See, there are different design decisions. James Bond saves the world...he doesn't usually save it after part of it is destroyed. But you wanting the story to go a certain way isn't a flaw with the story. It's your own personal desire not being met. There's nothing really wrong with the way it was handled. And again, that dialogue at the end with Joko is probably one of the most enjoyed/liked scenes I've ever seen people react to. I help a lot of guildies through story and achievements and so I've seen the reaction to this scene countless times and spoke about people.

I try to instill this in people all the time, but it often doesn't work. You not personally liking something doesn't make it bad. Same with me of course. It's just something I would have preferred different. But I'm not thinking most people disliked the end of the Joko story. I could have gone other ways, that's true. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it went.

[Shade.8971]

I can't think of a villain I like. Coming from FFXIV Shadowbringers, it saddens me when I compare the stories from GW2 and that game.

[Tanith.5264]

Palawa! Ignacius! Jok--well, he was...

[sephiroth.4217]

Years ago there was a dungeon introduced for living story season 1...It involved the dredge and lots of azurite farming when sentinel stats were new...

There was these 2 bosses... one had a molten jet pack and the other was a brute and we faught them on this large circle platform...

Those were my favourite villians.

[Ashen.2907]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Ultramex.1506" said:Gaheron though? Beside his intention of becoming a god, he just yell really loud and doesn't appear anywhere else beside dungeon.

A lot of Gaheron's underused interest comes more from the Flame Legion shamans' actions and mentions of him. From the whole body mutilation ritual coming from Gaheron, to him discovering how to perform resurrections when such magic became extinct in the world, and he was the first charr to actively attempt (and seemingly come close to) some form of godhood (while his "godhood form" was active, he was invulnerable and excessively more powerful).

Gaheron definitely had the potential to be interesting. Sadly, they didn't give him a chance for that potential. Same with Cadeyrn.

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

All these people saying Scarlet, I have to wonder if they played during Season 1 or, if they did, if they're not mistaking nostalgia for a good writing.More likely, it's just that different people like different things about stories.

During LS1 (when it wasn't yet called "Season 1"), it was fashionable to dislike Scarlet. Much of the time, the reasoning was weak and came down to: "I don't like that sort of thing," rather than something substantial. And to be fair, there are constructive critiques of Scarlet.

As someone who was there at the time, that's very much incorrect. People didn't dislike Scarlet because it was "fashionable" to do so. They disliked Scarlet because she was a genuinely poorly written character. Especially with

her background story

which was the beginning of the dislike for her.

As it turns out, the very things that some people hated about Scarlet were things that I enjoyed: she was over-the-top and funny, rather than all glum and serious. She had a can-do attitude to rival the Commander. Like the Commander, she had access to infinite resources, only running short for immediate plot needs. And the things that people hated about Scarlet are things I dislike about the Hero in most RPGs (MMOs or single player).

Scarlet wasn't really "over the top and funny" - well, she was over the top, but not funny. She was literally directed to be a "British Harley Quinn" - Tara Strong's own words, which people had noticed pretty clearly the moment she had screen time. She had infinite resources, unlike the Commander, and the reasons for these resources were contrived and implausible (somehow managing to convince all the most xenophobic and misogynistic groups to like a foreign, female, individual and work for her). She never came up short for plot needs, but rather, the Commander was the one coming up short because Scarlet got away with everything she wanted

every single time

. Even in death, the Commander lost to Scarlet because Scarlet

still got what she wanted.

She was a by-the-book Mary Sue, who never failed even when the plans of her subordinates failed. She did the literally impossible and illogical without breaking a sweat, and the lore of the game was actively rewritten for the sake of her antics. Even her own background had been rewritten four times because it was just

too

over the top at first, and even the writers realized it.

I suppose it's possible for people to enjoy Mary Sue flawless characters who never fail, but that doesn't make it a well written character.

This.

I had really looked forward to the idea of the Living World approach to expanding the game but LS1 was so off-putting that I left the game for an extended period.

[Tashigi.3159]

Frankly, I haven't really felt there has been a villain in this game. Joko is prob the closest we've gotten to that.

[Randulf.7614]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:I feel like we haven't had a proper villain in a while.Scarlet was a lot more interesting when she was still behind the scenes. Her chaotic evil was more.. chaotic.. than enticing.I also had much higher hopes for Joko, what with all the build up throughout gw1 and gw2. He even had the plague at some point, and we only barely get to see it in the same episode he dies.And then there's balthazar. I mean, I get he was weakened, no longer a real god. But come on.. he was the god of WAR! and you can beat him armour-less with auto-attack.At least caudecaus had some air of dignity until the last chapter he appeared in.

The inquest seem like the only proper course left, and thats only if the staff will ever write them a serious role. So far they've had the tools to become the big bad evil but have only acted out of comedic selfishness

We destroy the plague in the meta event of that zone. Seems people forget open world stuff is also part of the story.

Yea, but that happens afterwards. Palawa dies without proficiently utilizing the plague. And with him out of the way we can clear it the gandaran fortress and destroy all plague vessels

Well they weren't going to release the plague on the world. Could you imagine the way that would have affected the entire world. It would be a world altering event, and a whole lot of people would have hated it. And if the plague can't get out, the next best thing is to show plague victims, let them get trapped, show the ghosts charging in because they can get through the barrier even if the plague victims can't...I mean that was a really good scene. And Palawa's death scene was a really good scene too, probably my favorite in the entire game.

So yeah, it's not like they forgot about the plague. Considering it wasn't going to be released, I don't see how that's an actual complaint. He should have done more with the plague? He was preparing to and we stopped him.

Well, obviously not. A ruined tower is the most living world we'll ever get.I was just a little disappointed thst the catalyst of so much lore and spark was cancelled near its limelight.I had expected we'd follow Joko somewhere while dealing with the plague along the way. A quarantined area that would be the map.See some tragedy, some hopelessness. A spark of failure. That would've made the story so much darker and better, and Joko a much hateful villain

So your complaint is misplaced. See, there are different design decisions. James Bond saves the world...he doesn't usually save it after part of it is destroyed. But you wanting the story to go a certain way isn't a flaw with the story. It's your own personal desire not being met. There's nothing really wrong with the way it was handled. And again, that dialogue at the end with Joko is probably one of the most enjoyed/liked scenes I've ever seen people react to. I help a lot of guildies through story and achievements and so I've seen the reaction to this scene countless times and spoke about people.

I try to instill this in people all the time, but it often doesn't work. You not personally liking something doesn't make it bad. Same with me of course. It's just something I would have preferred different. But I'm not thinking most people disliked the end of the Joko story. I could have gone other ways, that's true. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it went.

The dialogue might be, but the ending has been widely condemned by people in game and across feedback platforms. Sure some people liked it, but the disappointment in the cheap, illogical death scene has not gone down well. Even the devs expressed a note of regret post episode after they saw the negative feedback which they acknowledged.

As for the episode build, I disagree with your analysis it was a well handled storyline and it is only expectations that weren’t managed. There were some excellent discussions on it in the lore forum and the episode feedback forum that described the problem in detail that I’ll try and dig out at some point.

If you liked it, then that is fine and yours and anyone else’s prerogative, but that doesn’t for me change that they rushed through the plague arc to move into aurenes story. We were very much still in the early stages of building the threat before Kourna and ep3 was far too soon to end both the plague and Joko.

[Naxos.2503]

One Drink Drake.

Technically a villain, and a good reminder of how funny the Order of Whispers missions can be.

[knomslayer.9457]

Favourite villain is Two-Blade Pete!1.He is handsome bandit2.He give me free black lion key!