What's "endgame" and does it really have to be most populated in-game thing?

[Xar.6279]

As I saw a lot of players seems to don't understand what really "endgame" is. It's also one of the reasons why they have wrong thoughts about some things.For example: some people acts like endgame should be addressed to the majority of players. While IMO it's a total misunderstanding of what ENDgame really is.That's why I decided to write about it and start this discussion. Im curious what do you guys thinks about word called "endgame".

Ok, but what's endgame in GW2 then? IMO it's things as:

• AT's in PvP
• Speedkills and lowmans in pve (which is fully created endgame by players).
• GvG's in WvW (which is fully created endgame by players).

Normal pvp, normal raids/fracrals or normal wvw isn't endgame. It's just content to play. Its repeatable ofc, but it's still just content. Same as hunting for achievements etc, etc.Raids for example used to be an endgame here (at least in players eyes) but ArenaNet didn't support it enough.

As I saw it's very common mistake which people make: they treat "content" and "endgame" as a same word.

Let's talk about population now. Do "endgame" have to be most populated in-game thing to be successful? Of course not. It's even IMO not possible to have endgame which focus on the majority of players. It's always addressed to the minority. Success of endgame don't depend on amount of players which plays it. It's all about quality of endgame. There just have to be enough players to play it properly.

However how about money then? Is it possible to make money on endgame content when it's adressed to the minority of players? Of course it is.There's a lot of online games on the market which makes huge money on their endgame content (and it's definitely bigger money than ArenaNet do).It's possible to make money on both things:

• content which brings huge population which spend money here (by buying skins etc, etc). Most obvious way to make money. Huge playerbase = huge money.
• through event organization (tournaments etc, etc), media, sponsors, etc, etc.

The best way is surely to do money on both things simultaneously.Meantime as we all know ArenaNet don't make money on their endgame content. They're wasting its potential. But it don't mean it's impossible to do it. It's just their (imo bad) decision. Nothing more / less.

So tldr: endgame will never be most populated thing (It's logical) and there's nothing wrong with it. It's something completely normal. This is how it works in every online game. And it's still possible to make huge money on it.

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Xar.6279" said:As I saw a lot of players seems to don't understand what really "endgame" is. It's also one of the reasons why they make wrong opinions about some things.

Where is your definition derived from? Can you quote sources which substantiate the definition you put forth, or is this simply one of those: "I said so, so it must be" scenarios?

The very definition of the GW2 wiki already refers to endgame as something different than what you put forth:

Endgame describes game content that becomes available at max level, typically after completing the structured base storyline. In short, it is a way to give max level players a sense of progression through repeatable content (repeatable because no developer or company can deliver content as quickly as good players consume it).

Guild Wars 2 is quite different and does not really feature content that is restricted to max level. Instead, all content is adjusted for a continuous challenge (or rather, the player is adjusted to be continually challenged). This leaves, theoretically, the whole game as endgame. To further differentiate Guild Wars 2's endgame from the usual practice, the developers have stated that they wanted the endgame to be only cosmetic, as opposed to a stat-driven 'gear treadmill' (a repetitious cycle of acquiring gear to beat harder content that rewards better gear, ad infinitum).

The reality, however, is mixed. There is both a cosmetic endgame and a playable endgame in which to show off the cosmetic part. This page lists both types of endgames.

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endgame

So I will politely disagree with your personal subjective definition which does not even match the games wiki (and yes, wikipedia entries can be edited though I find this one to be in general in line with what most people I know would consider endgame).

[Taygus.4571]

you don't get to decide what endgame in an mmo is for everybody.

for some its speed clears, for some its just raids, for others its helping new players, for others its the constant creation and leveling new characters.

for me endgame, is trying to personally improve in my classed and simplu raiding, fractals or pvp. Speed clears are not my interest...merely being able to complete the content.

for devs, endgame is whatever keeps the majority of players buying gems.

That probably isnt competitive modes.

[Dante.1508]

Guildwars 2 Endgame..

Standing around in Lions Arch looking all shiny with legendaries and the most cash shop attire. Yes its the most packed server area

[Xar.6279]

@"Taygus.4571" said:you don't get to decide what endgame in an mmo is for everybody.

for some its speed clears, for some its just raids, for others its helping new players, for others its the constant creation and leveling new characters.

for me endgame, is trying to personally improve in my classed and simplu raiding, fractals or pvp. Speed clears are not my interest...merely being able to complete the content.

for devs, endgame is whatever keeps the majority of players buying gems.

That probably isnt competitive modes.

ENDgame is endgame. And normal content is content. No matter if its repeatable or not. Two different things.Lvling character can't be ENDgame because you can do it in the beginning.

Of course u can call "endgame" whatever you want but objectively it won't be endgame content at all.

[Tommo Chocolate.5870]

@"Xar.6279" said:As I saw a lot of players seems to don't understand what really "endgame" is.

Funny, I only saw one player who doesn't understand what "endgame" really is... It's hard to tell whether you really don't understand what people mean by "endgame", or whether you're deliberately choosing to use a non-standard definition because you think it gives weight to the argument you were making in the other thread. (If the latter, hint: it doesn't.)

[coso.9173]

so you made a whole new topic because someone disagreed with you on the other topic?

[Vision.7265]

@Dante.1508 said:Guildwars 2 Endgame..

Standing around in Lions Arch looking all shiny with legendaries and the most cash shop attire. Yes its the most packed server area

I would add DR @ Minister's WP where the smols dwell.

[Xar.6279]

IMO there's huge difference between endgame content and normal content. Repeatable is also different thing. You can do endgame content just once and you can repeat it. Same with normal content which can be repeatable and not. And Im pretty sure endgame is not everything you do. Endgame is endgame. Something what's in the end and there's nothing foward. Not what you can do in the beginning of your game and neither in the middle. Or something you do casually. You don't have to reach endgame at all in your whole gaming experience. There's no need in doing it. Noone is forced. You can just do some normal content which you like and repeat it as much as you want. No matter what it is. It can be totally everything. Why not. But you're not doing endgame then.

[ugrakarma.9416]

Since we dont know where really Anet "make moneys" we are shooting in the dark.. but by the amount of "shiny skins" they drop my bet is on "casuals". Normally busy, make-money ppl dont bother with spend few dollars and want fast reward just to look better.

The problem with some "end game" content, inst really the appeal or even rewards just the time they consume. I did once time the "migraine" achievment, its required 2hrs+ in try/error to finnally got it. I myself had no problems with raids alleged toxicity, i just had no more time to spend 4hrs ++ on this kinda of content.

What some call the death of GW2 may just specialization in a certain type of audience.. I myself dont play any other online game, just GW2, and then the offline games, because offline game i can "save" the progression and continue later, in MMos, even GW2 that dont had vertical progression, inst the same thing. Since GW2 i can just "jump in", and play any content without bother with "what i had lost in last 2 months", then thats why i still play it. Years after, i still dont have the simple PoF achievments done, unlike HoT era when i grinded more hard,i had near 99% completed(including Migraine).

In other side there the more young audience, they dont had much dollars on hand, but had more time, theyre the speedrunners, early rushers that find anything expensive, and also 2 weeks after some content launched they complain about the game "inst bring anything new".

[AgentMoore.9453]

@Xar.6279 said:Endgame is endgame. Something what's in the end and there's nothing foward.

This doesn't exist in MMOs under this definition. MMOs are evolving worlds that retain their users by adding new content periodically. You don't reach an end point with nothing forward until the game shuts down.

Instead, endgame in GW2 is any content you can complete after hitting max level, repeatable or not. It encompasses a wide variety of styles, difficulties, and focuses (Puzzles, combat, exploration, cosmetics, etc.) and you don't have to worry about picking and choosing what is or isn't endgame.

[Acheron.4731]

I kinda agree with the OPEnd-game usually takes the skills you have learned and the experience and tests ur skills vs others.I though it was a pretty good summary.Most WvW's feel that is end-game as you face other people on large scale vs facing AI.....if wvw was handled correctly it could have been the best end-game content of all games...But......

[Dante.1763]

@Acheron.4731 said:I kinda agree with the OPEnd-game usually takes the skills you have learned and the experience and tests ur skills vs others.I though it was a pretty good summary.Most WvW's feel that is end-game as you face other people on large scale vs facing AI.....if wvw was handled correctly it could have been the best end-game content of all games...But......

I dunno, i disagree, it takes no skill to flip camps non stop. i think soloing champs is more end game than that, But honestly all level 80 content is endgame as its all max level.

[Zaklex.6308]

@Xar.6279 said:

@"Taygus.4571" said:you don't get to decide what endgame in an mmo is for everybody.

for some its speed clears, for some its just raids, for others its helping new players, for others its the constant creation and leveling new characters.

for me endgame, is trying to personally improve in my classed and simplu raiding, fractals or pvp. Speed clears are not my interest...merely being able to complete the content.

for devs, endgame is whatever keeps the majority of players buying gems.

That probably isnt competitive modes.

ENDgame is endgame. And normal content is content. No matter if its repeatable or not. Two different things.Lvling character can't be ENDgame because you can do it in the beginning.

Of course u can call "endgame" whatever you want but objectively it won't be endgame content at all.

Endgame as defined by you, may not be the same thing as endgame defined by someone else...or even by ArenaNet themselves, you say what you want, but ultimately it is up to the developers to decide what endgame is in the game they design and produce, users do not get to define what endgame is going to be...as much as they would like to, they can't and won't. Since English isn't your native tongue it's a little harder for most people to understand what you were trying to say, but it certainly isn't telling everyone else what endgame is...the wiki definition is most likely the closest thing you'll come to for GW2 and it only applies to GW2, other games have different endgames.

[Knighthonor.4061]

In MMOs Endgame has always meant content done once you reach max level. As in no more level grind or the point when level grind hits its softcap and progression is no longer a number next to your character avatar that gates the content. Some MMOs have a long gap to get to endgame, such as a very slow level grind game verse a MMO with no levels in which endgame starts right away the moment you leave the introduction area.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

For me end game is whatever im doing right now, been playing 7years. Mostly for me its raids.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Xar.6279" said:As I saw a lot of players seems to don't understand what really "endgame" is. It's also one of the reasons why they have wrong thoughts about some things.For example: some people acts like endgame should be addressed to the majority of players. While IMO it's a total misunderstanding of what ENDgame really is.If anything, your post is a total misunderstanding of what endgame is and what isn't. Endgame is just the content devs use to keep players engaged longterm. Nothing more, nothing less. As such, it necessarily needs to be aimed at the players devs want to retain. Consequently, it is quite okay for an endgame to be aimed at only small part of the player community, but it's completely absurd to not have any endgame aimed at the majority of your players. Well, unless, of course, you don't care about that majority of players staying in your game.

I can see you want to see the gendgame as something special and glorious, but the truth is it isn't. Some types of endgame migh have more prestige than others, but that's just good PR. In the end, the only factor that matters to devs is how effective is their player retention value. More "prestigious" endgame that in the end interests only a small number of players is thus worse than something far less prestigious that nevertheless keeps a major part of the community engaged.

Yes, it may dissapoint you and disagree with your personal feelings, but devs are there for business. Not to make a game only a few selected players would enjoy.

[SdoRy.6839]

The only one "misunderstanding" things here is you, I believe. You seem to mix up "endgame" with "challenging content". While it certainly can be the same, and a lot of people want their "endgame" to be "challenging content", it doesn't have to be. Content can be challenging without being endgame (e.g. hard story missions before you are max level/BiS geared) and endgame can also be "un-challenging" (e.g. current living story releases).Endgame is (or rather what it is usually perceived as) nothing more than what you do in the game, once you have finished your character "progression". Usually that means once you've reached max level and BiS gear. The content that is then designed to be played "for fun" is what people usually refer to as "endgame".

[Svarty.8019]

Endgame is content beyond "levels". It's almost laughable that games still have levels, but I suppose they're a way of slowly introducing skillbar and equipment complexity to the player.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

I always thought that 'endgame' was the extras, or bonus content, either unlocked or challenge modes, after you completed core story.

But I'm kinda thinking playstation here, as well as...

[Vinceman.4572]

Well OP already made her/his own definition of raids here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91751/arenanet-should-rename-word-raid-into-something-elseSo it seems it's like a habit of her/him to turn things around, use different wordings and neglect given definitions.All in all we get the impression of having a player here that is heavily depressed about the ongoing things in GW2. Don't be mad, just go on and leave this game. You'll find different opportunities to have fun. GW2 won't shine any more, not even urgent wishings or claims will turn the company around. It's kind of over and the faster you realize that the better you'll feel in the future. Imho not worth discussing such negligibilities.

[Tukaram.8256]

In MMOs endgame has always simply meant the content to keep players engaged after reaching max level. It does not imply that it is harder or not repeatable. If you want to make up a definition, perhaps you should consider making up a new word for it.

[Xar.6279]

@"Vinceman.4572" said:Well OP already made her/his own definition of raids here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91751/arenanet-should-rename-word-raid-into-something-elseSo it seems it's like a habit of her/him to turn things around, use different wordings and neglect given definitions.All in all we get the impression of having a player here that is heavily depressed about the ongoing things in GW2. Don't be mad, just go on and leave this game. You'll find different opportunities to have fun. GW2 won't shine any more, not even urgent wishings or claims will turn the company around. It's kind of over and the faster you realize that the better you'll feel in the future. Imho not worth discussing such negligibilities.

Actually the only thing keeps me playing GW2 is just my guild and Role Play tbh. Because this game mode is fully created by us here :P Its state is not dependent on Arena Net. It's all about us. We create our own RPG systems, stories etc, etc. There's always something brand new to do.

If it comes to pve I never liked it here (except 2016/2017 when it looked like raids are going to be a thing and Arena Net was releasing them once per 3 months). But they quickly showed what's their direction. If it comes to pvp - I really liked this mode here but it changed after Arena Net stopped supporthing esport, world championships and they removed groupq. So there was no some kind of eternal goal to achieve anymore. No motivation.

It's all about Role Play and lore. And also I never had big expectations if it comes to GW2 and its pve/pvp tbh. And that's one of reasons why Im still here. If I would care only about pve/pvp here, then I would leave GW2 many years ago :P I can't understand how it is possible to play only pve or pvp in this game tbh. That's why im not surprised that almost every pve / pvp oriented guild i knew already left gw2. I would do the same.

So I don't plan to leave atm :P Because I still have something to do here. But ofc when even RolePlay won't be fun here, then surely I'll move on somewhere else.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

Gosh this discussion. Endgame is the most advanced gameplay in game where you - generally - need BiS gear or build up to min-max. Meaning raids and t4 fractals (especially with challenged motes). That's it. For me personally, I never saw WvW as 'endgame'. What a bullshit. I almost never play PvP in games since I think it's too hectic and unpredictable.

[Taygus.4571]

@"ProtoGunner.4953" said:Gosh this discussion. Endgame is the most advanced gameplay in game where you - generally - need BiS gear or build up to min-max. Meaning raids and t4 fractals (especially with challenged motes). That's it. For me personally, I never saw WvW as 'endgame'. What a kitten. I almost never play PvP in games since I think it's too hectic and unpredictable.

Thats engane to YOU.

that's not necessarily the only end game.WvW is endgame to me..so is pvp, so are raids, so are T4..not necessarily with cms as that's above my ability.

That doesn't mean i haven't reached endgame. Even openworld metas could be considered end game for people.

here's a defintion from mmo champian.

"End game is anything that is restricted to being max level, all the stuff that is available when you are done leveling. Everything that can be played at max level. Or if the game is not based around max level, it would be the content that is relevant for the huge majority of players."