Can we make No Down state permanent? Or have Conditions transfer over to Down State(Most Ideal)

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Justine.6351 said:

@"SWI.4127" said:I like the res game and strategy around it. I do also like no-downstate events every once in awhile to switch it up though. I don't think it should be permanent. Not adding to the conversation much, I know. Just want to put my opinion out there so Anet doesn't see only one side of this.

Nah we get ya. Simply removing downed state is a bad idea at this point. People acting like it will cure wvw can't think very far ahead about how people would change behavior to keep themselves alive. The "safe play" would kill small-scale even harder but yay we can now gank zerglings ! Amazing big fun...

I used to be on the side of just completely removing downstate and doing an entire rework of the revive system in relation to skills and traits to work with full dead characters, however I came to realize that is not a feasible or realistic approach to the issue. Not only would it be a development nightmare, it would also wreak havoc on gameplay balance, meta, and other things. People could barely handle when HoT came out and its PvE content, removing downstate permanently would completely derail things.

Downstate does not need to be removed, however I do firmly believe that it needs to be altered. Downstate has too much health, downstate skills are also so inconsistent between classes that some just have flat out better skills while downed than others, and revive speed is too fast even with 1 person ressing, on top of the fact that it even allows more than 1 person to ress another player.

• Downstate health needs to be reduced to a "normalized" amount across all classes. To something within the 20,000 to 25,000 range. Not too much, not too little. With damage being where it is these days I think this is a reasonable number, though an argument could be made for maybe 30,000 health being the norm. Three times class base health is a bit much.
• Revive speed needs to be slowed down a bit even for 1 player reviving ideally to a point to where if someone takes a revive related trait then the revive speed we have now is what that particular trait buffs it up to, and they also need to remove the ability to have multiple players reviving a single player all at the same time. Rallying another player with "the rub" needs to be a risk you take in any given PvP encounter, it shouldn't just be this nonchalant aspect to PvP. Currently the system creates this incentive where if your teammate goes down, the rest of the adjacent players just, essentially, dog pile on top of them for the quick res rather than guard them, or clear the enemies, or push them away from that particular area.
• Downstate skills need to be "normalized" as well, they are too inconsistent in effectiveness across classes and honestly "class identity"" should be an entirely, completely, utterly irrelevant concept and idea when your character is downed in a fight. You're downed. Ideally it would be something like 1) Bandage Self 2) Attack Skill 3) Class flavored mobility/stomp denial skill. Thats it. The mobility/stomp denial skill is probably the most important one either for repositioning so as to create an opportunity for one teammate to res you, or to deny a complete finish long enough for the enemy to get pushed away or wiped and then they are safer to be ressed.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Fueki.4753 said:I believe removing safe stomps would make WvW and PvP healthier than nerfing down states.You have your beliefs, I have mine.

But that doesn't mean either one is right.

But someone on the internet is wrong!

Also no downstate event is coming next week. My body is ready breaths heavy.

[Apokriphos.7042]

@Justine.6351 said:

@"diomache.9246" said:No downstate will kill wvw for most people like it did the other times this event happened. It's unbalanced and stupid for most classes.

Why not make a "no stealth" event instead? Oh, because your class relies on stealth?

Bad luck, hu?

Rofl that is about as close as you can come to admitting downed state carries without actually saying it...

What he actually said was Stealth based burst builds will dominate during this event in very small scale grps. Given that is exactly what happened last time, it checks out.

Additionally, and in agreement with the previous poster, some 5 man groups will be running bunker condi with fb cleanse and will do the 1 target calls, and lacking a downstate, will certainly have an easier time farming newbies outside of their spawn.

Who is this event fun for?

1-2 scale: Ganking stealth grps who rarely if ever rally from downstate.5 scale: organized 5man bunker who target call and again rarely visit downstate except as a grp.Zerg scale: Better organized squads and guild squads will win out vs larger pugmanded zergs.

The last one is the only benefit I could support.

Stealth and Deadeye in particular definitely needs a nerf for smallscale. Hopefully it will get that much needed change post this event, as everyone sees how blatantly bad game design it can be.

[Bugabuga.9721]

@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:Changes to DS in WvW should be:

• Remove rally
• 1:1 reviving
• Remove invulnerable frames when going into DS
• Lower HP pool of DS, it was large enough to start with and after the big dmg nerf DS has become a DPS sponge
• Reduce revive speed, a single player can revive a down faster than a stomp can finish

Transfer of condi onto someone going into DS would be fine as well, doesn't make any sense for it to be a full clear when going into DS.

Well, if we're going there:

• Limit of all porting/shadow-step skills to 300, any porting skills interrupt attempt to stomp. Yes, you actually have to stand on the dead body to stomp it
• AOE shouldn't work on downed people at all -- if you want 1:1 ressing? you're getting 1:1 stomping and none of that 'let me AOE kill them all'
• Disable "remote" stomping and accelerated stomping, so no thief's cat-paw insta-kill, no scrapper function gyro stomping
• Increase channel time of stomp animation. You know, so people have better chance to react

That should do it. And to prevent traditional 'we're just here to insta-kill noobs by spawn out of stealth' any time we get no downed state 'event', going into stealth should automatically apply non-convertible and non-cleansable chill, crippled, slow and blind for 10 seconds. You know, so there'd be 'trade-off' of hiding and ambushing -- it's cold and dark in the shadows and you have to be moving slowly.Balance achieved!

Tadaaaa! :smile:

[ASP.8093]

Yes, yes, let's all complain how terribly unfair it is when someone blows a minute-long defensive cooldown to quickly finish a single already-downed player in a small-scale teamfight.

[solemn.9608]

Yeah let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, staff ele ele would be screwed if downstate was removed permanently lol. Rallying is part of my rotation.

[God.2708]

@solemn.9608 said:Yeah let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, staff ele ele would be screwed if downstate was removed permanently lol. Rallying is part of my rotation.

Not as much now that they removed top DPS lesser lava font tho. RIP 2012-2020.

[awaken.2134]

i vote condi transfer to downstate

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

Most often the cry of remove down state by the people who can't manage an entire fight. The fight goes until the person is dead, not wanting to create a build to keep that in mind is just lazyness.

[Doug.4930]

@Bugabuga.9721 said:

@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:Changes to DS in WvW should be:

• Remove rally
• 1:1 reviving
• Remove invulnerable frames when going into DS
• Lower HP pool of DS, it was large enough to start with and after the big dmg nerf DS has become a DPS sponge
• Reduce revive speed, a single player can revive a down faster than a stomp can finish

Transfer of condi onto someone going into DS would be fine as well, doesn't make any sense for it to be a full clear when going into DS.

Well, if we're going there:

• Limit of all porting/shadow-step skills to 300, any porting skills interrupt attempt to stomp. Yes, you actually have to stand on the dead body to stomp it
• AOE shouldn't work on downed people at all -- if you want 1:1 ressing? you're getting 1:1 stomping and none of that 'let me AOE kill them all'
• Disable "remote" stomping and accelerated stomping, so no thief's cat-paw insta-kill, no scrapper function gyro stomping
• Increase channel time of stomp animation. You know, so people have better chance to react

That should do it. And to prevent traditional 'we're just here to insta-kill noobs by spawn out of stealth' any time we get no downed state 'event', going into stealth should automatically apply non-convertible and non-cleansable chill, crippled, slow and blind for 10 seconds. You know, so there'd be 'trade-off' of hiding and ambushing -- it's cold and dark in the shadows and you have to be moving slowly.Balance achieved!

Tadaaaa! :smile:

I never quite understood the logic with replies like these. Why are we nerfing class mechanics not related to downstate? You do know that the classes you want nerfed as "compensation" also have downstate? The suggested nerfs that you replied to would balance downstate. At the moment its a crutch that players who only ever run in groups that outnumber their opponents can benefit from. Because guess what. All those "cheese" tactics you want nerfed only ever come into play against you when you have more friends than they do. You think a thief shadow step stomping is going to matter if you're alone? Do you think scrapper gyro will matter when you're fighting a 2v5 as the 2? Do you think its going to matter when your group of 2 gets jumped by a group of 4. Nope, because if you go down when you're outnumbered the odds of you getting back up again are much much slimmer than they are when you have the numbers advantage. So the fact that you want these skills nerfed tells me you frequently get jumped by roamers who you outnumber and yet still manage to down you. If that's the case then you deserve to be double downed. You don't deserve an additional crutch on top of the numbers advantage you already have.

I have no problem with downstate in a clean 2v2 or 5v5. Because both groups can abuse the crutch equally. Sure its still annoying because it breaks the flow, but its not unfair. But if 3 of you are fighting one player and that player downs you, then I'm sorry, but they deserve to have the chance to stomp you. Downstate in its present state does not allow for that if your two allies posses the intellectual ability of pressing F exactly one time on your body. I don't care what build they're running. There are some cheese builds in the game at the moment sure (condi herald cough), but no build should ever win 3v1 unless the opponents are very new or are thoroughly outplayed.

My advice is don't go into downstate when you outnumber the enemy.

I'd also add that all downstate skills should be mechanically the same. Classes like thieves/mesmers/ele's shouldn't have downstate skills that are objectively better.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Nuuuuuuu, that would be helping me in WvW. I want it to be hard for me to determine what servers have weak af small scale game and rely on numbers to win xD

[Dawdler.8521]

I'm against removing it but still, it'll be fun to have another event.

Last time it was exciting the first couple of days, then it became increasingly annoying midweek and at the end of the week it had just killed all the fun of fighting because people had adapted, zergs employed overwhelming power to just steamroll and end "fights" instantly while smaller forces went full gank parties. Fights that lasted minutes before was done in seconds with looooong downtimes between.

But of course that was long before the current balance. I doubt much will change though. A majority of players have always been in favor of keeping it no matter how much the minority shrieks about removing it.

[hobotnicax.7918]

No downed state would actually require skilled gameplay from the players and that does not fly with Anet.Best we can hope in regards of downed state, is that they nerf the health pool, extend revive time and maybe remove downed state skills (which are OP, some classes do more dmg from downed state than when they were alive). But even this is... not gonna happen.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"hobotnicax.7918" said:No downed state would actually require skilled gameplay from the players and that does not fly with Anet.Not true in any situation whatsoever. In 1v1 it obviously dont matter except in those 1 in 100 times you both go down at the same time, in which case the one with the strongest downstate usually win (ie the necro, or if a thief stealth for 20+ seconds and goes down at the same time) and in group fights it only require the "skilled" gameplay of ganking one of the enemies with all your forces - preferably from skillfull stealth of course, or skillfull 1800 range attacks, or possibly skillfull perma-stuns.

[subversiontwo.7501]

Again? I think this is like the 7th time we have this kind of thread and poll just over the summer.

Hasn't everything been said a million times over already?

I think any arguments that involves discussing rally are sensible.

Even the arguments regarding the resser cap (from 10 to whatever) is interesting though 1 seems extreme and naive. But hey, 3-5, can certainly be discussed.

I think any arguments that involves removing downstate is both counter-productive to what the game is and meant to be (social, helpful, diverse and complex as an MMO) as well as delusional (it is often promoted by bad players who gank on things like Thieves or tower Rangers and somehow think that is going to make life easier for them without realizing that the game would be more boring for everyone, themselves included, if everyone else [better players] also played things like Thieves and tower Rangers where no one commits and everybody is cautious - we have too much of that already - and we're going to see that transpire over the upcomming event week alone, I'm sure, people usually playing support reverting to low-effort gank).

[hobotnicax.7918]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"hobotnicax.7918" said:No downed state would actually require skilled gameplay from the players and that does not fly with Anet.Not true in any situation whatsoever. In 1v1 it obviously dont matter except in those 1 in 100 times you both go down at the same time, in which case the one with the strongest downstate usually win (ie the necro, or if a thief stealth for 20+ seconds and goes down at the same time) and in group fights it only require the "skilled" gameplay of ganking one of the enemies with all your forces - preferably from skillfull stealth of course, or skillfull 1800 range attacks, or possibly skillfull perma-stuns.

We must be playing different games then.In 1v1 it can matter, both go down, 1 is a ranger, we know who'll get up first. Small scale, 1/2v5+ it matters LOADS, pick on the weakest link and go from there. Large group fights, again, matters a lot, pick on their dmg 1 by 1 until equal numbers etc.You seem to have been wrecked by many and carry-ressed by even more, that you cling so badly to the crutch that is downed state.Downed state is a terrible mechanic in WvW. Needs to go asap.

[God.2708]

@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:No downed state would actually require skilled gameplay from the players and that does not fly with Anet.Not true in any situation whatsoever. In 1v1 it obviously dont matter except in those 1 in 100 times you both go down at the same time, in which case the one with the strongest downstate usually win (ie the necro, or if a thief stealth for 20+ seconds and goes down at the same time) and in group fights it only require the "skilled" gameplay of ganking one of the enemies with all your forces - preferably from skillfull stealth of course, or skillfull 1800 range attacks, or possibly skillfull perma-stuns.

We must be playing different games then.In 1v1 it can matter, both go down, 1 is a ranger, we know who'll get up first. Small scale, 1/2v5+ it matters LOADS, pick on the weakest link and go from there. Large group fights, again, matters a lot, pick on their dmg 1 by 1 until equal numbers etc.You seem to have been wrecked by many and carry-ressed by even more, that you cling so badly to the crutch that is downed state.Downed state is a terrible mechanic in WvW. Needs to go asap.

What people are arguing, and what you can't seem to see past your own nose over, is that you have a CHANCE at 1v2-5ing because the opposing players are bad in the first place. There is no world where you are a leet awesome super skilled player and can 1vX a bunch of other leet awesome super skilled players. Anything you can do, they can do X times over. It's obvious who wins in such a situation.

You remove downstate. Those new players realize they can't help each other survive in WvW. They quit.

Now you're 1v0ing because you wanted to feel good about 'crushing no skilled players' and they did the easy thing which was not show up at all.

And now the mode is full downed.

[Fueki.4753]

@God.2708 said:And now the mode is full downed.If there is down state, wouldn't the mode be full dead instant of full downed?

[kash.9213]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"hobotnicax.7918" said:No downed state would actually require skilled gameplay from the players and that does not fly with Anet.Not true in any situation whatsoever. In 1v1 it obviously dont matter except in those 1 in 100 times you both go down at the same time, in which case the one with the strongest downstate usually win (ie the necro, or if a thief stealth for 20+ seconds and goes down at the same time) and in group fights it only require the "skilled" gameplay of ganking one of the enemies with all your forces - preferably from skillfull stealth of course, or skillfull 1800 range attacks, or possibly skillfull perma-stuns.

Ya it's not going to be great for builds I can take down fast but who might have had a downstate skill that could bring them inside a tower or interrupt me while their help moves in. While I have all the freedom to lurk around and pick my targets other builds focused on keeping up their squad or whatever have to hope their team is super alert to intercept for them.

[hobotnicax.7918]

@God.2708 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:No downed state would actually require skilled gameplay from the players and that does not fly with Anet.Not true in any situation whatsoever. In 1v1 it obviously dont matter except in those 1 in 100 times you both go down at the same time, in which case the one with the strongest downstate usually win (ie the necro, or if a thief stealth for 20+ seconds and goes down at the same time) and in group fights it only require the "skilled" gameplay of ganking one of the enemies with all your forces - preferably from skillfull stealth of course, or skillfull 1800 range attacks, or possibly skillfull perma-stuns.

We must be playing different games then.In 1v1 it can matter, both go down, 1 is a ranger, we know who'll get up first. Small scale, 1/2v5+ it matters LOADS, pick on the weakest link and go from there. Large group fights, again, matters a lot, pick on their dmg 1 by 1 until equal numbers etc.You seem to have been wrecked by many and carry-ressed by even more, that you cling so badly to the crutch that is downed state.Downed state is a terrible mechanic in WvW. Needs to go asap.

What people are arguing, and what you can't seem to see past your own nose over, is that you have a CHANCE at 1v2-5ing because the opposing players are bad in the first place. There is no world where you are a leet awesome super skilled player and can 1vX a bunch of other leet awesome super skilled players. Anything you can do, they can do X times over. It's obvious who wins in such a situation.

You remove downstate. Those new players realize they can't help each other survive in WvW. They quit.

Now you're 1v0ing because you wanted to feel good about 'crushing no skilled players' and they did the easy thing which was not show up at all.

And now the mode is full downed.

See, this is where we will always disagree. There should be nothing in a modern MMO that carries bad players. Specially not in open world pvp modes.They can't help each other survive? Play support perhaps? Kill the enemy before they kill your buddy?

Removing downed state is one of the most important things Anet needs to do to save WvW. Because currently, spamming all of your skills, going down and then get instantly ressed so you can spam some more is not helping WvW survive.

What you want is for Anet to leave this "hey dad I fell off my bike please pick me up" mechanic in-game so people have no incentive to get better, overall improving the experience for others as well.

No downed state events were the most fun I've had in WvW since the first tournament. The excitement, the thrill of the fight and risk/reward factor have never came close to that when there was the event going.

How it is right now: you fight, you use your skills to defeat an enemy, the enemy is in downed state and can still damage you, you need to use further skills to cleave or if you are able stomp the player all before they get revived by someone else. Seems fair right? The guy who lost gets the reward. Brilliant.

If you think removing downed state would kill WvW you're deluded and/or you only play WvW a few hours per week in which case your opinion is worthless.

[Hoxworth.7318]

Im sure there's alot of thrill in being one shot by a deadeye or any other spec and having no chance to be saved, same goes for downed state in zergs, Downstate pressure with revs? Nah that doesnt exist at all, It's not like some fights can be decided by using enemy downstates as a bait. Oh. Its not like one condi can stop a ress for so long, It would be POISONous to think so.

[God.2708]

@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@God.2708 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:No downed state would actually require skilled gameplay from the players and that does not fly with Anet.Not true in any situation whatsoever. In 1v1 it obviously dont matter except in those 1 in 100 times you both go down at the same time, in which case the one with the strongest downstate usually win (ie the necro, or if a thief stealth for 20+ seconds and goes down at the same time) and in group fights it only require the "skilled" gameplay of ganking one of the enemies with all your forces - preferably from skillfull stealth of course, or skillfull 1800 range attacks, or possibly skillfull perma-stuns.

We must be playing different games then.In 1v1 it can matter, both go down, 1 is a ranger, we know who'll get up first. Small scale, 1/2v5+ it matters LOADS, pick on the weakest link and go from there. Large group fights, again, matters a lot, pick on their dmg 1 by 1 until equal numbers etc.You seem to have been wrecked by many and carry-ressed by even more, that you cling so badly to the crutch that is downed state.Downed state is a terrible mechanic in WvW. Needs to go asap.

What people are arguing, and what you can't seem to see past your own nose over, is that you have a CHANCE at 1v2-5ing because the opposing players are bad in the first place. There is no world where you are a leet awesome super skilled player and can 1vX a bunch of other leet awesome super skilled players. Anything you can do, they can do X times over. It's obvious who wins in such a situation.

You remove downstate. Those new players realize they can't help each other survive in WvW. They quit.

Now you're 1v0ing because you wanted to feel good about 'crushing no skilled players' and they did the easy thing which was not show up at all.

And now the mode is full downed.

See, this is where we will always disagree. There should be nothing in a modern MMO that carries bad players. Specially not in open world pvp modes.They can't help each other survive? Play support perhaps? Kill the enemy before they kill your buddy?

Removing downed state is one of the most important things Anet needs to do to save WvW. Because currently, spamming all of your skills, going down and then get instantly ressed so you can spam some more is not helping WvW survive.

What you want is for Anet to leave this "hey dad I fell off my bike please pick me up" mechanic in-game so people have no incentive to get better, overall improving the experience for others as well.

No downed state events were the most fun I've had in WvW since the first tournament. The excitement, the thrill of the fight and risk/reward factor have never came close to that when there was the event going.

How it is right now: you fight, you use your skills to defeat an enemy, the enemy is in downed state and can still damage you, you need to use further skills to cleave or if you are able stomp the player all before they get revived by someone else. Seems fair right? The guy who lost gets the reward. Brilliant.

If you think removing downed state would kill WvW you're deluded and/or you only play WvW a few hours per week in which case your opinion is worthless.

I don't need to 'think'. I can just watch the population of the mode while I play more than a few hours per week during this event and see the results in real time.

Edit: Though I'd be willing to hear out a case for why a week is not enough and you think the population will bounce back afterwards or something.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@God.2708 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:No downed state would actually require skilled gameplay from the players and that does not fly with Anet.Not true in any situation whatsoever. In 1v1 it obviously dont matter except in those 1 in 100 times you both go down at the same time, in which case the one with the strongest downstate usually win (ie the necro, or if a thief stealth for 20+ seconds and goes down at the same time) and in group fights it only require the "skilled" gameplay of ganking one of the enemies with all your forces - preferably from skillfull stealth of course, or skillfull 1800 range attacks, or possibly skillfull perma-stuns.

We must be playing different games then.In 1v1 it can matter, both go down, 1 is a ranger, we know who'll get up first. Small scale, 1/2v5+ it matters LOADS, pick on the weakest link and go from there. Large group fights, again, matters a lot, pick on their dmg 1 by 1 until equal numbers etc.You seem to have been wrecked by many and carry-ressed by even more, that you cling so badly to the crutch that is downed state.Downed state is a terrible mechanic in WvW. Needs to go asap.

You remove downstate. Those new players realize they can't help each other survive in WvW. They quit.

1. They can help each other before anyone is downed? What is this nonsense?
2. New players are by far the minority in this stage in the game. I don't care about them and hardly anyone should, the guide anet released recently should be enough lol. Someone wants to RQ because they didn't become a god in a week of play, go ahead and can I have your stuff.
3. You act like ONLY new players are bad and ONLY new players can abuse downstate. Hardly the case. Ever. Maybe people below bronze should keep downstate? That should satisfy you right, this is about protecting new players and not yourself and your team abusing downstate?

[Dawdler.8521]

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:I don't care about themAh, the usual argument for deleting a core GW2 combat feature.

[Svarty.8019]

If this happens, can I get reimbursed for the Finishers I bought?