Outnumbering removes downed state

[Shroud.2307]

I'm still neutral on the downed state stays versus remove it permanently argument, so I don't much care whether it stays or goes. That said, I do think some interesting things could be done with it, and have seen some unique suggestions in various threads in an attempt to appease both sides.

Here's my own suggestion (option 3).

[Kylden Ar.3724]

I have to take an option that I don't really like because you don't have the right answer which is, "Downstate is fine, it's rally that needs to go."

Because rally is really the problem with Zergs. Not having to stop attacking to get your teammate up cause all you gotta do is keep attacking to score a kill to rally them is the issue. If they had to stop pew pew to press F it would not be an issue.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I'm actually for removing it in its entirety from WvW, but I think that would be almost impossible to get Anet to do.

I actually mentioned the outnumbered buff thing in another thread recently so I'm voting for it here.

Essentially it boils down to this:

Remove Downstate from WvW baseline. Only those with the 'Outnumbered' buff have access to Downstate. This gives the outnumbered side a fighting chance against the larger force, they can rally and they can be rezzed from down. The larger group would risk overextending as they would be more prone to their numbers getting picked off by organized strikes on the blob to pick out targets, and if they get hit hard enough could be countered more easily by the smaller force.

[Sylosi.6503]

So if three of us are roaming about in a group and we encounter a 5 man group who have the outnumbered buff, because our blob is PvDooring some tower, then the three of us are having to fight an outnumbered fight against 5 guys whilst having the disadvantage of no downstate/res...

Doesn't seem a very well thought through idea to me.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

Out of this, I have to go for remove DS.

As removing from one side does not work in game, nor is it fair. Removing an unfair carry from one side to another does not help the game.

I have said before, what if my servers zerg moves from EBG to the BL I am on as a mostly solo roamer, but I am in a camp fighting 1vs4, the 4 I am fighting are "outnumbered", however in the fight, I am the one outnumbered.

Another example: A fight guild of 15 join a BL, they are outnumbered because the other side has numbers or just a random pug tag ktraining. The fight guild gets DS and will know how to abuse it, and the pugs have to deal with DS now, as such they are never going to wipe the fight guild, because the fight guild is going to focus targets that wont have DS, while the fight guild will have access to the DS carry. We do NOT need to move the DS carry from one side to another, we need to remove or change it in a way it does not benefit any side.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:I have to take an option that I don't really like because you don't have the right answer which is, "Downstate is fine, it's rally that needs to go."

Because rally is really the problem with Zergs. Not having to stop attacking to get your teammate up cause all you gotta do is keep attacking to score a kill to rally them is the issue. If they had to stop pew pew to press F it would not be an issue.

i agree that rally needs to go completely.but downedstate is also a problem in small outnumbered fights. (1v2, 5v10, etc)if you get rid of rally, bus clashing will often result in downed being kill soo fast it wont matter much if there is downstate or not anyway.only that some AOE would be used on living players instead of downed ones.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Remove Downstate from WvW baseline. Only those with the 'Outnumbered' buff have access to Downstate. This gives the outnumbered side a fighting chance against the larger force, they can rally and they can be rezzed from down. The larger group would risk overextending as they would be more prone to their numbers getting picked off by organized strikes on the blob to pick out targets, and if they get hit hard enough could be countered more easily by the smaller force.

this is useless because if you are outnumbered, being downed means death.and it will still create unfair engagement between equal roaming groups which in turn will make WvW even more unbalanced.

in the end, without downstate, you can rebalance WvW with new mechanics like revive ability being used on the deads.i am for fresh new feature that would actually promote fights no matter the odds instead of keeping that old downstate that clearly increase the problems of overall damage nerf and boonballs.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

@Sylosi.6503 said:So if three of us are roaming about in a group and we encounter a 5 man group who have the outnumbered buff, because our blob is PvDooring some tower, then the three of us are having to fight an outnumbered fight against 5 guys whilst having the disadvantage of no downstate/res...

Doesn't seem a very well thought through idea to me.

That comes with anything linking mechanics to a fluctuating Outnumbered Buff.

D:

[Dawdler.8521]

You want to know some super secret saucy information:

Just because you are outnumbered, it does not mean you are outnumbered.

Or are you saying that when I'm fighting 1v2 on one side of the map, those 2 deserve to have downed state more than me, just because "my zerg" is ganking 80v10 on the other side of the map?

Oh hey look my prediction of shitty polls came through. I'm shocked, shocked I say!

Well not that shocked.

[BunjiKugashira.9754]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Rework "Outnumbered" to provide a unique debuff to the server(s) that are causing Outnumbered. The server with the greater numbers will lose their downed state while the Outnumbered server will retain it.

Do you want people to tell you to get off the map? Because that's how you get people to tell you to get off the map.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Just do events like this more often. Best of both worlds.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:if you get rid of rally, bus clashing will often result in downed being kill soo fast it wont matter much if there is downstate or not anyway.only that some AOE would be used on living players instead of downed ones.

Which at least forces a tactical choice. Do I focus the downs or keep pressuring the blob that is currently able to actually fight back?

And yes, many times in zerg fights downstate is so sort already due to the recent Scourgelands© update. If your team is doing their job downstate is not really a thing. It's really only impactful due to rally and to havoc teams and small scale.

@"Dawdler.8521" said:You want to know some super secret saucy information:

Just because you are outnumbered, it does not mean you are outnumbered.

Or are you saying that when I'm fighting 1v2 on one side of the map, those 2 deserve to have downed state more than me, just because "my zerg" is ganking 80v10 on the other side of the map?

Oh hey look my prediction of kitten polls came through. I'm shocked, shocked I say!

Well not that shocked.

Agreed. At this point they might as well get rid of polls on this forum. They are clearly useless and not listened to anyway.

[Shroud.2307]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:You want to know some super secret saucy information:

Just because you are outnumbered, it does not mean you are outnumbered.

Or are you saying that when I'm fighting 1v2 on one side of the map, those 2 deserve to have downed state more than me, just because "my zerg" is ganking 80v10 on the other side of the map?

Oh hey look my prediction of kitten polls came through. I'm shocked, shocked I say!

Well not that shocked.

Your prediction is what made me decide to make it because I don't personally care if people think I'm an idiot. I like to discuss things to see what ideas people have. It's just unfortunate 99% of people on this forum have nothing constructive to say and would instead rather be sarcastic, condescending or straight up rude.

I appreciate some of the criticisms here because it's true, it wasn't a very well thought out idea. But that's the point... To discuss it to come to a better conclusion that might appeal to both sides. Although keeping downed state as is is less likely to cause people to leave the game entirely than removing it permanently, it would be ideal to have a change that everyone can be happy with and potentially draw in new players. Not necessarily the idea I put forth, but it's a start and gives a better idea where everyone stands. Granted, the forums make up an extremely small minority of course.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Granted, the forums make up an extremely small minority of course.

A SUPER small minority.

Consider that a LOT of WvW regulars never post here because they can't due to be banned for "matchup threads" and the usual talk that goes with ANY PvP mode.

Most WvW discussion goes on in Discord channels ANet has no control over.

[Shroud.2307]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Granted, the forums make up an extremely small minority of course.

A SUPER small minority.

Consider that a LOT of WvW regulars never post here because they can't due to be banned for "matchup threads" and the usual talk that goes with ANY PvP mode.

Most WvW discussion goes on in Discord channels ANet has no control over.

No reason not to discuss it even so. I was only pointing out that it doesn't necessarily reflect the opinion of the general population because I knew had I not said it someone else would have.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Make all "revive" skills also resurrect a player who is fully defeated. This removes downstate, removes party rubbing, and makes sure that players can only be brought back into the fight if someone sacrifices build space for it, and on a cooldown.

Literally every other game uses that system, and it works.

The current event has just turned WvW even further towards the "5mins walking, 5secs fighting" that plagued it before. I've said this repeatedly but some of us have other things to do than walk back from waypoints all day on a slow kitten mount.

Please stop trying to find ways to make the game mode more death-centric.

[Shroud.2307]

@"Hannelore.8153" said:Make all "revive" skills also resurrect a player who is fully defeated. This removes downstate, removes party rubbing, and makes sure that players can only be brought back into the fight if someone sacrifices build space for it, and on a cooldown.

Literally every other game uses that system, and it works.

The current event has just turned WvW even further towards the "5mins walking, 5secs fighting" that plagued it before. I've said this repeatedly but some of us have other things to do than walk back from waypoints all day on a slow kitten mount.

Please stop trying to find ways to make the game mode more death-centric.

Initially I was thinking the problem with that is that a single person could potentially bring back up to 5 people from the dead... But then I remember they can already do that except from downed state instead. It isn't much different really, so that's not a bad idea. Though I'm sure some balancing would need to be done around certain skills to accommodate for the changes. Scrappers with Function Gyro would be pretty busted for example.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:Make all "revive" skills also resurrect a player who is fully defeated. This removes downstate, removes party rubbing, and makes sure that players can only be brought back into the fight if someone sacrifices build space for it, and on a cooldown.

Literally every other game uses that system, and it works.

The current event has just turned WvW even further towards the "5mins walking, 5secs fighting" that plagued it before. I've said this repeatedly but some of us have other things to do than walk back from waypoints all day on a slow kitten mount.

Please stop trying to find ways to make the game mode more death-centric.

Initially I was thinking the problem with that is that a single person could potentially bring back up to 5 people from the dead... But then I remember they can already do that except from downed state instead. It isn't much different really, so that's not a bad idea. Though I'm sure some balancing would need to be done around certain skills to accommodate for the changes. Scrappers with Function Gyro would be pretty busted for example.

Since players would have to allocate build space for it, I imagine overall would see a reduction of more than 50% in revives compared to now, especially since rallies would be removed. It'd be a nice middleground for everyone I think.

[ArchonWing.9480]

The problem with attaching anything to the outnumbered buff is that people are going to yell at those that come on an outnumbered map and remove it. It already happens, though most of it is facetious due to pips-- it would cause people joining in to create a negative contribution, which is not a good place for things to be. Also in any situation where this is possible, it also encourages trolling.

Although that's also what I think of the rally function as well. Weak/new/inexperienced players come in and die, rallying enemies, and causing frustration. As a result nobody wants to play with these "rallybots" because they actively cause harm. As a result I think removing rally would remove some of the source of said tension between servermates. Downstate itself can be kept.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:I'm actually for removing it in its entirety from WvW, but I think that would be almost impossible to get Anet to do.

I actually mentioned the outnumbered buff thing in another thread recently so I'm voting for it here.

Essentially it boils down to this:

Remove Downstate from WvW baseline. Only those with the 'Outnumbered' buff have access to Downstate. This gives the outnumbered side a fighting chance against the larger force, they can rally and they can be rezzed from down. The larger group would risk overextending as they would be more prone to their numbers getting picked off by organized strikes on the blob to pick out targets, and if they get hit hard enough could be countered more easily by the smaller force.

Lol, I replied to your comment in the other thread with option 3 exactly, seconds before seeing this thread xD

I do think that if the matchup is even (read, nobody has outnumbered) you should retain down state tho. That would mean it has no effect on zerg play outside of matchups where you're already hilariously outnumbering your opposition.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

@Sylosi.6503 said:So if three of us are roaming about in a group and we encounter a 5 man group who have the outnumbered buff, because our blob is PvDooring some tower, then the three of us are having to fight an outnumbered fight against 5 guys whilst having the disadvantage of no downstate/res...

Doesn't seem a very well thought through idea to me.

Roaming on a BL where theres a friendly tag that's most likely a) outnumbering their home defense and b) distracting most of that defense by pvding some tower, thats safe roaming, not outnumbered roaming, regardless of how many home defense stragglers or 3Rd server opportunists come against your roaming party, it doesn't count.

If one wants any perks of fighting outnumbered, then they should actually fight outnumbered, not piggy back roam off a pve tag.

[Sylosi.6503]

@HazyDaisy.4107 said:

@Sylosi.6503 said:So if three of us are roaming about in a group and we encounter a 5 man group who have the outnumbered buff, because our blob is PvDooring some tower, then the three of us are having to fight an outnumbered fight against 5 guys whilst having the disadvantage of no downstate/res...

Doesn't seem a very well thought through idea to me.Roaming on a BL where theres a friendly tag that's most likely a) outnumbering their home defense and b) distracting most of that defense by pvding some tower, thats safe roaming, not outnumbered roaming, regardless of how many home defense stragglers or 3Rd server opportunists come against your roaming party, it doesn't count.If one wants any perks of fighting outnumbered, then they should actually fight outnumbered, not piggy back roam off a pve tag.

If my group of 3 is fighting a group of 5 then we are having an outnumbered fight, it's pretty simple maths... And what some PvDoor tag is doing the other side of the map has no bearing on that or perhaps you think he magically chucks heals across the map to us... How about when he leaves the map and our opponents still have the outnumbered buff until the next tick, do you think he will chuck heals to us from another map?

As for wanting perks for being outnumbered, no idea what you are going on about, I didn't ask for perks, I simply pointed out the flaw in this idea or indeed any idea that attempts to attach mechanics or stats that effect fights to the outnumbered buff.

[ASP.8093]

@"Hannelore.8153" said:Make all "revive" skills also resurrect a player who is fully defeated. This removes downstate, removes party rubbing, and makes sure that players can only be brought back into the fight if someone sacrifices build space for it, and on a cooldown.

Literally every other game uses that system, and it works.

The current event has just turned WvW even further towards the "5mins walking, 5secs fighting" that plagued it before. I've said this repeatedly but some of us have other things to do than walk back from waypoints all day on a slow kitten mount.

Please stop trying to find ways to make the game mode more death-centric.

I'm not the biggest fan of this idea, but I do have to admit it is 100% workable: worst case, you could change recharge timers to 180 or 300 sec. and they'd still be useful because you do get a whole player back. So there's a lot of room to fine-tune the effect depending on how important you want in-battle ressing to be.

[MedievalThings.5417]

The problem is that Anet caters to the crowd that gives them the most money. In the case of wvw, it is the bandwagon blobs that keep transferring to fight smaller groups and doors. They stack on servers so they rarely have to fight groups the same size they are. And, if another blob ends up in their play time, they transfer again. This is the same group that got arrow carts, balistas, cannons, and walls nerfed. All because it was taking them a minute to flip things. This is the reason that downstate will never go away, because the bandwagon blob doesn't want to have to run back. They want to be carried by numbers. Removing downstate, allows skilled players to pick them apart, and they don't want that, which means Anet doesn't want that.

[Justine.6351]

Making it sometimes on sometimes off is just going to mess with people randomly.

If they wanted to do the work, they would have to make outnumbered buff more granular by making it localized. This could maybe be done by using the current territories.

[subversiontwo.7501]

The problem with the suggestion is that once the outnumbered buff appears the receiving side can't really fight back anyway and no buffs are really going to let them or motivate them to use whatever bonus. On the other hand the content that may appear that actually is somewhat balanced (eg., some roamers facing off somewhere away from the blob that generates the buff) will get skewered so the end result is only negative. It doesn't let any content be squared up but may take from content that remains squared up despite an imbalanced map.

The same goes for the event itself. I see alot of people talking about "roaming" but I don't really see that many people roaming, while I see an even greater than usual amount of run-away thieves resetting and tower rangers or blink mesmers hugging walls. That's the downside of the event, that it makes people cautious and cowardly. That very quickly becomes rather boring, not to mention how it upsets larger-scale balance and even if you prefer smaller-scale content it would be wise for you to at least understand the breadth of content that goes on in your mode. Not to mention the self-diluding aspect of it mentioned elsewhere, where few of the people who call themselves roamers are likely to benefit from a shrinking target pool of non-roamers and a growing amount of actual roamers on stale mirrors.