Improving the World vs. World Reward Structure

[schokelmei.8271]

I'm a wvw player since the start of the game now. My interest in any other part of the game is around 1%. This means I log in to WvW, end up in our guild hall some hours later and today I'm not even have any map completion because "Tome of Knowledge".Now I started crafting the legendary WvW armor and sorry to say it: It really sucksThe armor is way harder to make than the PvE or even PvP one and additionally I'm hitting a dead end any time I need a "Ball of dark Energy" and "Stabilizing Matrices". WvW isn't a nice little world where you get a ton of ascended gear handed out. In all those years (8,5~) I ended up with maybe 12-20 drops. And no, i cannot afford to salvage my weapons to craft an armor piece that requires another armor piece to make.

So how to improve the already bad reward structure of WvW.Give us a guaranteed Ascended Armor/Weapon Chest at the end of the Diamond Reward. That makes four per month after at least 20 hours of gameplay per week. Additionally buff the gold reward of those reward tracks and make it similar to pvp rewards.

Thanks, etc.

[VanWilder.6923]

I understand your point. WvW players do not want to do PvW stuffs and vice versa. As I am a PvE player, skirmish tickets from WvW is the worst of the worst, long and tedious grind. But I have to cope with that. If Anet intended to change the system, it would had been implied years ago.

[Veprovina.4876]

How long have you been playing WvW if you're only now starting on your legendary armor?

I started 7 months ago and i made 4 pieces. 2 to go... But... I also play PvE on the side, so i was never up against such a wall that WvW exclusive players face. So i get that. I'm just curious.

Also, there's a few threads about this already:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/126187/why-does-wvw-have-the-worst-reward-structure/p1

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/121597/add-in-daily-weekly-and-monthly-vendors-into-wvw

Feel free to contribute to those threads as well.

[Kondor.2904]

??You can already purchase ascended armor and weapons with the appropriate wvw currency. Also you earn approximately the same amount of gold as pvp by actively playing WvW, the only difference is that in pvp you get straight liquid gold and in wvw you have to sell stuff. Although they might need to add extra grandmaster mark shards, so you can also get 3 marks within the same time frame, as spvp season.

But anyway, as long as you can afk and flip a camp near the spawn every 10 minutes, there won't be any increase in rewards. Your best chances are they introduce ways to exchange emblems for good stuff.

[Dawdler.8521]

If this is an issue, you are putting the cart before the horse.

Wanna know the super secret trick to easy legendary armor?

You are supposed to have a throwaway ascended set first.

You run with this until you have all components to create 6 pieces at once when salvaging your existing gear.

[schokelmei.8271]

Yes, @Kondor I can of course buy ascended armor and weapons in WvW. The problem is that they cost the same stuff I need for the Legendary stuff too and all of it is heavily timegated and as most wvw players you are not playing on one build and not even on one profession. Every part I salvage I have to buy new.Today I had to salvage my only ascended longbow to get the "Ball of Dark Energy" - and this wasn't a 100% chance of getting one.To get "Memory of Battle" you have to go from wood to diamond every week, finish rewards tracks and you end up with ~400 of them after a month of at least 100h in wvw.So alone for the next wvw legendary piece I have to play 150h (buying the ascended part, buying the stuff for the legendary) and getting a ton of stuff from open world (Gift of Totems, Gift of Blood, etc) which I get mostly by buying Tier 6 bags with laurels.This may all seem pretty easy when you look from it from a pve perspective. But as I said before WvW makes you no money while working on legendaries, in the best case you end up with a solid balance of 0.And this all additionally depends on your matchup and your server. If you end up in tier 5 there may be no going to Diamond a week. which delays the whole thing further.

My problem with that is that Anet throws Ascended Stuff at you in other game modes and you can't even dodge it. In WvW there is a .00something percentage of a weapon or armor box drop or getting a ring. As I said I saw maximum 20 drops in almost nine years of WvW.

That's why I think there should be a fix gold and ascended reward after more than 20 hours of playing wvw per week and not a massively low drop chance to get something as a reward.

[Illumine Sparkler.6019]

I’ve had more ascended drops in my wvw time than I have anywhere else, played from start but with a 5 year gap in the middle, so roughly 3.5 years of playtime, I’ve had more in wvw (rank under 1500 so shows how much time I spend in wvw) than I have in pvp/t4 fractals and what raids I have done combined. Adding on all the currencies and mats collected in that time is should be easy to get ascended stuff to salvage, for example from the Laurel vendor.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

What a warped view of difficulty. Wvw which can be done by afking in OS while sharing participation with a zerg in theory make it the easiest legendary armor to get.Pvp requires a minimum of 3 seasons and repeating the last chest 24 times. And these are for account bound materials, not memory of battles that can be bought off the tp.Pve armor requires actaully success at killing the raid bosses, as opposed to lossing every pvp match or share participation while afk.Wvw has the lowest risk so it must be the most costly. This is followed by pvp (takes significantly longer if you are bad at the game) followed by pve (impossible if you are bad at the game).If wvw rewards are improved without adding any more risk, you will end up with the same botting problem pvp has right now.

[Danikat.8537]

I know you said you have little/no experience of playing PvE but you seem to have a very warped view of how rewards in PvE work. No one is going to be making a profit while making legendary equipment, they're all designed to take a lot of time and money no matter how you go about doing it. It's quite normal to drain your wallet and your bank of materials and, as you said "end up with a solid balance of 0". What you're describing in terms of time and money/materials required is fairly typical for anyone making a legendary.

And yes having to salvage one or more pieces of ascended equipment to get the materials for legendary is a big sacrifice, but as @Dawdler.8521 said if you can't afford to do that it's a sign that you're not quite ready to be making legendary equipment yet.

[Cuks.8241]

If you're playing only WvW for 8.5 years and regularly reaching diamond chest you are probably swimming in skirmish tickets and memories of battle. Ascended weapons or armour pieces shouldn't be such an issue. Unless marks are the problem.You could try salvaging amulets and accessories you can buy with laurels but wiki says the chance from those is very low. I think you can't get them from rings though.

[Veprovina.4876]

@"Danikat.8537" said:I know you said you have little/no experience of playing PvE but you seem to have a very warped view of how rewards in PvE work. No one is going to be making a profit while making legendary equipment, they're all designed to take a lot of time and money no matter how you go about doing it. It's quite normal to drain your wallet and your bank of materials and, as you said "end up with a solid balance of 0". What you're describing in terms of time and money/materials required is fairly typical for anyone making a legendary.

And yes having to salvage one or more pieces of ascended equipment to get the materials for legendary is a big sacrifice, but as @"Dawdler.8521" said if you can't afford to do that it's a sign that you're not quite ready to be making legendary equipment yet.

I think you're missing the point a bit... OP is exclusively playing WvW.People like me who do PvE as well as WvW (while maining WvW) can scrounge up materials and balls of dark energy pretty ok-ish, depends on how much i PvE.People who are only in WvW and never PvE can have things like legendary armor drag on for years (literally), especiall if they either just started, or can't finish diamond each week. Imagine someone who can't play every day, or play long periods. Those people don't get ascended let alone legendary in the time a PvE player that plays the same amount of time would get at least one legendary set. Especially because of how embarisingly low amount of grandmaster shards you get. And since WvW only players don't get enough resources to level up their crafting disciplines, the whole thing can literally slog to several years with the current system. Especially since, if you don't repeat diamond, you don't get any T6 mats whatsoever. You get some from reward tracks but not even close to being useful in a 6 months timeframe that is the miminum for skirmish tickets. Plus - if you don't have ascended first, you can forget about that entirely, grandmaster marks alone will take you about 2-3 months for just one piece of ascended. Which you can't then salvage because it's a precursor for a legendary... So you need at least two... Not to mention, to get ascended even available, you first need to complete the reward tracks for each piece. And you can forget about those too if you don't have T6 participation, T3 participation will also take a week for just one if you don't spend 40+ hours a week in WvW. Some people's work week is 40 hours for comparison...

Do you see where i'm going with this? You can't play WvW exclusively and make WvW legendary armor. You need to PvE too.

It's all fine and good to drain your bank while making a legendary, that's how it's supposed to be, it's after all - the ultimate last item you'll ever need, but the time to get it is borderline insulting to people's time.

And yes, i know, you can "afk with participation", that argument gets thrown around willy nilly, except you can't. I don't know how many commanders will just give you partcipation for doing nothing, you at least have to scout for them, and if you flip camps, that isn't afk because by the time you get to another camp, your participation will have dropped enough so that you have to constantly be flipping objectives to just keep it up. If some people do get participation for nothing, those are the extreme minority and not everyone has access to that luxury. So "it's easier to WvW because you can afk" argument doesn't hold up. If everyone could do it, sure, but not everyone can do it. You can take a 5 minute break but that's it, then you have to go flip objectives - to me, that's not any passive afk acquisition if you have to run around actively and do stuff.

The point is - i agree with you, it's not easy in PvE as well, there's no doubt about that. The point is - PvE players can get theirs doing exclusively PvE, while exclusive WvW players can't in any reasonable amount of time, they have to do PvE as well.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Danikat.8537" said:I know you said you have little/no experience of playing PvE but you seem to have a very warped view of how rewards in PvE work. No one is going to be making a profit while making legendary equipment, they're all designed to take a lot of time and money no matter how you go about doing it.I think OPs point is that PvE is far better at giving you rewards that can be turned to gold - if you play enough, you can earn gold for plactically anything eventually. WvW is far, far worse in that regard.

It's quite normal to drain your wallet and your bank of materials and, as you said "end up with a solid balance of 0".If i understand it right, OP was talking about "solid balance of 0" in the context of normal WvW play, not making a legendary.

[Kondor.2904]

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"Danikat.8537" said:I know you said you have little/no experience of playing PvE but you seem to have a very warped view of how rewards in PvE work. No one is going to be making a profit while making legendary equipment, they're all designed to take a lot of time and money no matter how you go about doing it. It's quite normal to drain your wallet and your bank of materials and, as you said "end up with a solid balance of 0". What you're describing in terms of time and money/materials required is fairly typical for anyone making a legendary.

And yes having to salvage one or more pieces of ascended equipment to get the materials for legendary is a big sacrifice, but as @"Dawdler.8521" said if you can't afford to do that it's a sign that you're not quite ready to be making legendary equipment yet.

I think you're missing the point a bit... OP is

exclusively

playing WvW.People like me who do PvE as well as WvW (while maining WvW) can scrounge up materials and balls of dark energy pretty ok-ish, depends on how much i PvE.People who are

only in WvW

and never PvE can have things like legendary armor drag on for years (literally), especiall if they either just started, or can't finish diamond each week. Imagine someone who can't play every day, or play long periods. Those people don't get ascended let alone legendary in the time a PvE player that plays the same amount of time would get at least one legendary set. Especially because of how embarisingly low amount of grandmaster shards you get. And since WvW only players don't get enough resources to level up their crafting disciplines, the whole thing can literally slog to several years with the current system. Especially since, if you don't repeat diamond, you don't get any T6 mats whatsoever. You get some from reward tracks but not even close to being useful in a 6 months timeframe that is the miminum for skirmish tickets. Plus - if you don't have ascended first, you can forget about that entirely, grandmaster marks alone will take you about 2-3 months for just one piece of ascended. Which you can't then salvage because it's a precursor for a legendary... So you need at least two... Not to mention, to get ascended even available, you first need to complete the reward tracks for each piece. And you can forget about those too if you don't have T6 participation, T3 participation will also take a week for just one if you don't spend 40+ hours a week in WvW. Some people's work week is 40 hours for comparison...

Do you see where i'm going with this? You can't play WvW exclusively and make WvW legendary armor. You need to PvE too.

It's all fine and good to drain your bank while making a legendary, that's how it's supposed to be, it's after all - the ultimate last item you'll ever need, but the time to get it is borderline insulting to people's time.

And yes, i know, you can "afk with participation", that argument gets thrown around willy nilly, except you can't. I don't know how many commanders will just give you partcipation for doing nothing, you at least have to scout for them, and if you flip camps, that isn't afk because by the time you get to another camp, your participation will have dropped enough so that you have to constantly be flipping objectives to just keep it up. If some people do get participation for nothing, those are the extreme minority and not everyone has access to that luxury. So "it's easier to WvW because you can afk" argument doesn't hold up. If everyone could do it, sure, but not everyone can do it. You can take a 5 minute break but that's it, then you have to go flip objectives - to me, that's not any passive afk acquisition if you have to run around actively and do stuff.

The point is - i agree with you, it's not easy in PvE as well, there's no doubt about that. The point is - PvE players can get theirs doing exclusively PvE, while exclusive WvW players can't in any reasonable amount of time, they have to do PvE as well.

But pvp game modes are not the main modes in the game, PvE is. And I'm pretty sure guild wars has quite a generous system, compared to other games, that lets pvp players obtain a lot of things without stepping into pve.

What a lot of players seem to ask for is 3 separate games within 1 game. I'm not sure that's how it's supposed to work.

WvW can net you around 7g/h if you actively play and finish skirmish tracks (and that's not counting ascended armor drops, exotic armor boxes, mystic clovers, grand master marks, gifts of battle). I'm pretty sure that's more than enough to get legendary armor if you're invested in the game mode (And if you are not, then why do you need legendary armor ?). Is it less than PvE and will take more time ? Yes. Is that bad ? I personally don't think so. You are playing guild wars 2 after all, not wvw wars 2, I think you're kinda supposed to play PvE in a pve oriented mmorpg, or at least accept a slower crafting process if you want to fully focus on the secondary game mode.

[Veprovina.4876]

@Kondor.2904 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"Danikat.8537" said:I know you said you have little/no experience of playing PvE but you seem to have a very warped view of how rewards in PvE work. No one is going to be making a profit while making legendary equipment, they're all designed to take a lot of time and money no matter how you go about doing it. It's quite normal to drain your wallet and your bank of materials and, as you said "end up with a solid balance of 0". What you're describing in terms of time and money/materials required is fairly typical for anyone making a legendary.

And yes having to salvage one or more pieces of ascended equipment to get the materials for legendary is a big sacrifice, but as @"Dawdler.8521" said if you can't afford to do that it's a sign that you're not quite ready to be making legendary equipment yet.

I think you're missing the point a bit... OP is

exclusively

playing WvW.People like me who do PvE as well as WvW (while maining WvW) can scrounge up materials and balls of dark energy pretty ok-ish, depends on how much i PvE.People who are

only in WvW

and never PvE can have things like legendary armor drag on for years (literally), especiall if they either just started, or can't finish diamond each week. Imagine someone who can't play every day, or play long periods. Those people don't get ascended let alone legendary in the time a PvE player that plays the same amount of time would get at least one legendary set. Especially because of how embarisingly low amount of grandmaster shards you get. And since WvW only players don't get enough resources to level up their crafting disciplines, the whole thing can literally slog to several years with the current system. Especially since, if you don't repeat diamond, you don't get any T6 mats whatsoever. You get some from reward tracks but not even close to being useful in a 6 months timeframe that is the miminum for skirmish tickets. Plus - if you don't have ascended first, you can forget about that entirely, grandmaster marks alone will take you about 2-3 months for just one piece of ascended. Which you can't then salvage because it's a precursor for a legendary... So you need at least two... Not to mention, to get ascended even available, you first need to complete the reward tracks for each piece. And you can forget about those too if you don't have T6 participation, T3 participation will also take a week for just one if you don't spend 40+ hours a week in WvW. Some people's work week is 40 hours for comparison...

Do you see where i'm going with this? You can't play WvW exclusively and make WvW legendary armor. You need to PvE too.

It's all fine and good to drain your bank while making a legendary, that's how it's supposed to be, it's after all - the ultimate last item you'll ever need, but the time to get it is borderline insulting to people's time.

And yes, i know, you can "afk with participation", that argument gets thrown around willy nilly, except you can't. I don't know how many commanders will just give you partcipation for doing nothing, you at least have to scout for them, and if you flip camps, that isn't afk because by the time you get to another camp, your participation will have dropped enough so that you have to constantly be flipping objectives to just keep it up. If some people do get participation for nothing, those are the extreme minority and not everyone has access to that luxury. So "it's easier to WvW because you can afk" argument doesn't hold up. If everyone could do it, sure, but not everyone can do it. You can take a 5 minute break but that's it, then you have to go flip objectives - to me, that's not any passive afk acquisition if you have to run around actively and do stuff.

The point is - i agree with you, it's not easy in PvE as well, there's no doubt about that. The point is - PvE players can get theirs doing exclusively PvE, while exclusive WvW players can't in any reasonable amount of time, they have to do PvE as well.

But pvp game modes are not the main modes in the game, PvE is. And I'm pretty sure guild wars has quite a generous system, compared to other games, that lets pvp players obtain a lot of things without stepping into pve.

So your whole argument is, this is a PvE game - PvP peasants should be happy with the scraps they're given because they're not the PvE player masterrace? Umm...Why have PvP modes then to begin with if they're just treated as second class cititzens?

What a lot of players seem to ask for is 3 separate games within 1 game. I'm not sure that's how it's supposed to work.

So tell me, except for GoB, how many times is a PvE player forced into WvW? And again, why have PvP modes to begin with if they're treated like second class citizens? Because there ARE 3 separate games in 1 like it or not. And their crowd rarely mixes. Just look at how angry PvE players are when they have to set foot into WvW for GoB - which is the easiest thing they have to do. How much PvE do WvW players need to do for their legendary? Especially if they're crafting a weapon. You need the do the ENTIRE core PvE.

WvW can net you around 7g/h if you actively play and finish skirmish tracks (and that's not counting ascended armor drops, exotic armor boxes, mystic clovers, grand master marks, gifts of battle). I'm pretty sure that's more than enough to get legendary armor if you're invested in the game mode (And if you are not, then why do you need legendary armor ?). Is it less than PvE and will take more time ? Yes. Is that bad ? I personally don't think so. You are playing guild wars 2 after all, not wvw wars 2, I think you're kinda supposed to play PvE in a pve oriented mmorpg, or at least accept a slower crafting process if you want to fully focus on the secondary game mode.

I don't know where you got that calculation, but it's nowhere near that. Even if that's true which i doubt, that's not the entire problem that exclusive WvW players have to face. Exotic armor boxes are account bound, you can't make money off them, ascended drops are super rare and thus can't be an argument if they're basically based purely on luck, You need 3 months of grinind for 1 piece if you only use grandmaster mark shards etc.And again - there's 3 modes in the game. There is no 1 main mode because they're all made separate with their own mechanics. If PvE was the "main mode" then everything WvW playaers have would need to be obtained in WvW and WvW would yield no rewards, it would just be a "side mode". But it's not, it clearly has systems in place to at least try to give WvW only players the resources they need, it's just in a great disbalance to reward per time spent. So i don't buy the "PvE main mode" argument, if that's true, they wouldn't have made other ones on release, they'd make them as an afterthought.

If they would flatten skirmish ticket gains across all tiers (up to the weekly maximum), and give people more grandmaster shards, a lot of those issues could be minor or completely irrelevant. But not everyone has time to grind to Diamond even if all they do is play WvW, and without Diamond it takes exponentially longer to get ascended or legendary. PvE doesn't have that problem.

[ASP.8093]

I mean, PvE legendary armor is locked behind doing Raids — and you can't just, like, grind an easier boss like Vale Guardian for all of it, either. Most PvE players can't get it at all.

My recommendation with WvW legendary armor is just not to bother. The game's constantly giving you Warlord boxes to experiment with builds, and you can buy ascended skins that look just like your legendary skins with skirmish tickets and memories of battle.

[Danikat.8537]

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"Danikat.8537" said:I know you said you have little/no experience of playing PvE but you seem to have a very warped view of how rewards in PvE work. No one is going to be making a profit while making legendary equipment, they're all designed to take a lot of time and money no matter how you go about doing it. It's quite normal to drain your wallet and your bank of materials and, as you said "end up with a solid balance of 0". What you're describing in terms of time and money/materials required is fairly typical for anyone making a legendary.

And yes having to salvage one or more pieces of ascended equipment to get the materials for legendary is a big sacrifice, but as @"Dawdler.8521" said if you can't afford to do that it's a sign that you're not quite ready to be making legendary equipment yet.

I think you're missing the point a bit... OP is

exclusively

playing WvW.People like me who do PvE as well as WvW (while maining WvW) can scrounge up materials and balls of dark energy pretty ok-ish, depends on how much i PvE.People who are

only in WvW

and never PvE can have things like legendary armor drag on for years (literally), especiall if they either just started, or can't finish diamond each week. Imagine someone who can't play every day, or play long periods. Those people don't get ascended let alone legendary in the time a PvE player that plays the same amount of time would get at least one legendary set. Especially because of how embarisingly low amount of grandmaster shards you get. And since WvW only players don't get enough resources to level up their crafting disciplines, the whole thing can literally slog to several years with the current system. Especially since, if you don't repeat diamond, you don't get any T6 mats whatsoever. You get some from reward tracks but not even close to being useful in a 6 months timeframe that is the miminum for skirmish tickets. Plus - if you don't have ascended first, you can forget about that entirely, grandmaster marks alone will take you about 2-3 months for just one piece of ascended. Which you can't then salvage because it's a precursor for a legendary... So you need at least two... Not to mention, to get ascended even available, you first need to complete the reward tracks for each piece. And you can forget about those too if you don't have T6 participation, T3 participation will also take a week for just one if you don't spend 40+ hours a week in WvW. Some people's work week is 40 hours for comparison...

Do you see where i'm going with this? You can't play WvW exclusively and make WvW legendary armor. You need to PvE too.

It's all fine and good to drain your bank while making a legendary, that's how it's supposed to be, it's after all - the ultimate last item you'll ever need, but the time to get it is borderline insulting to people's time.

And yes, i know, you can "afk with participation", that argument gets thrown around willy nilly, except you can't. I don't know how many commanders will just give you partcipation for doing nothing, you at least have to scout for them, and if you flip camps, that isn't afk because by the time you get to another camp, your participation will have dropped enough so that you have to constantly be flipping objectives to just keep it up. If some people do get participation for nothing, those are the extreme minority and not everyone has access to that luxury. So "it's easier to WvW because you can afk" argument doesn't hold up. If everyone could do it, sure, but not everyone can do it. You can take a 5 minute break but that's it, then you have to go flip objectives - to me, that's not any passive afk acquisition if you have to run around actively and do stuff.

The point is - i agree with you, it's not easy in PvE as well, there's no doubt about that. The point is - PvE players can get theirs doing exclusively PvE, while exclusive WvW players can't in any reasonable amount of time, they have to do PvE as well.

How quickly do you expect someone to make a legendary?

I'm one of the people who can't play every day and can't be on for long when I do, and the quickest I've ever made a legendary weapon is 7 months - from the point I decided to start, by which time I already had a lot of the stuff I needed. The longest was my first which took 13 months, and 2.5 years from when I started playing. So the timescales you're describing sound reasonable to me. Also I've never gotten anywhere close to enough T6 materials just from drops, I've always had to buy them with gold or use laurels. I only know of one person who was actually trying to collect all the materials for a legendary directly instead of buying/trading for them and they acknowledged that meant it would take far, far longer to do. I'm not sure if they ever finished it. (But then what else would you use laurels for, once you've got ascended trinkets?)

I haven't made legendary armour yet, but I've got the WvW precursor chest piece, and a few items needed for the first collection to make PvE precursor armour and of the two I would definitely find the WvW version easier to complete. As someone said the vast majority of PvE won't give you any opppertunity to make legendary armour, you have to do raids (and you have to defeat multiple raid bosses multiple times). For a dedicated raider it might be fairly easy, but as a casual player it's much easier for me to jump into WvW when I feel like it and chip away at reward tracks and skirmish rewards which will get me some progress than try to find groups who will let me into a raid when I can't commit to a fixed schedule and hope we'll be able to clear a boss. I don't think I've ever gotten up to the diamond chest because I can't play that much in a week, but the lower tier chests work, it just takes longer.

[Kondor.2904]

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Kondor.2904 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"Danikat.8537" said:I know you said you have little/no experience of playing PvE but you seem to have a very warped view of how rewards in PvE work. No one is going to be making a profit while making legendary equipment, they're all designed to take a lot of time and money no matter how you go about doing it. It's quite normal to drain your wallet and your bank of materials and, as you said "end up with a solid balance of 0". What you're describing in terms of time and money/materials required is fairly typical for anyone making a legendary.

And yes having to salvage one or more pieces of ascended equipment to get the materials for legendary is a big sacrifice, but as @"Dawdler.8521" said if you can't afford to do that it's a sign that you're not quite ready to be making legendary equipment yet.

I think you're missing the point a bit... OP is

exclusively

playing WvW.People like me who do PvE as well as WvW (while maining WvW) can scrounge up materials and balls of dark energy pretty ok-ish, depends on how much i PvE.People who are

only in WvW

and never PvE can have things like legendary armor drag on for years (literally), especiall if they either just started, or can't finish diamond each week. Imagine someone who can't play every day, or play long periods. Those people don't get ascended let alone legendary in the time a PvE player that plays the same amount of time would get at least one legendary set. Especially because of how embarisingly low amount of grandmaster shards you get. And since WvW only players don't get enough resources to level up their crafting disciplines, the whole thing can literally slog to several years with the current system. Especially since, if you don't repeat diamond, you don't get any T6 mats whatsoever. You get some from reward tracks but not even close to being useful in a 6 months timeframe that is the miminum for skirmish tickets. Plus - if you don't have ascended first, you can forget about that entirely, grandmaster marks alone will take you about 2-3 months for just one piece of ascended. Which you can't then salvage because it's a precursor for a legendary... So you need at least two... Not to mention, to get ascended even available, you first need to complete the reward tracks for each piece. And you can forget about those too if you don't have T6 participation, T3 participation will also take a week for just one if you don't spend 40+ hours a week in WvW. Some people's work week is 40 hours for comparison...

Do you see where i'm going with this? You can't play WvW exclusively and make WvW legendary armor. You need to PvE too.

It's all fine and good to drain your bank while making a legendary, that's how it's supposed to be, it's after all - the ultimate last item you'll ever need, but the time to get it is borderline insulting to people's time.

And yes, i know, you can "afk with participation", that argument gets thrown around willy nilly, except you can't. I don't know how many commanders will just give you partcipation for doing nothing, you at least have to scout for them, and if you flip camps, that isn't afk because by the time you get to another camp, your participation will have dropped enough so that you have to constantly be flipping objectives to just keep it up. If some people do get participation for nothing, those are the extreme minority and not everyone has access to that luxury. So "it's easier to WvW because you can afk" argument doesn't hold up. If everyone could do it, sure, but not everyone can do it. You can take a 5 minute break but that's it, then you have to go flip objectives - to me, that's not any passive afk acquisition if you have to run around actively and do stuff.

The point is - i agree with you, it's not easy in PvE as well, there's no doubt about that. The point is - PvE players can get theirs doing exclusively PvE, while exclusive WvW players can't in any reasonable amount of time, they have to do PvE as well.

But pvp game modes are not the main modes in the game, PvE is. And I'm pretty sure guild wars has quite a generous system, compared to other games, that lets pvp players obtain a lot of things without stepping into pve.

So your whole argument is, this is a PvE game - PvP peasants should be happy with the scraps they're given because they're not the PvE player masterrace? Umm...Why have PvP modes then to begin with if they're just treated as second class cititzens?

What a lot of players seem to ask for is 3 separate games within 1 game. I'm not sure that's how it's supposed to work.

So tell me, except for GoB, how many times is a PvE player forced into WvW? And again, why have PvP modes to begin with if they're treated like second class citizens? Because there ARE 3 separate games in 1 like it or not. And their crowd rarely mixes. Just look at how angry PvE players are when they have to set foot into WvW for GoB - which is the easiest thing they have to do. How much PvE do WvW players need to do for their legendary? Especially if they're crafting a weapon. You need the do the ENTIRE core PvE.

WvW can net you around 7g/h if you actively play and finish skirmish tracks (and that's not counting ascended armor drops, exotic armor boxes, mystic clovers, grand master marks, gifts of battle). I'm pretty sure that's more than enough to get legendary armor if you're invested in the game mode (And if you are not, then why do you need legendary armor ?). Is it less than PvE and will take more time ? Yes. Is that bad ? I personally don't think so. You are playing guild wars 2 after all, not wvw wars 2, I think you're kinda supposed to play PvE in a pve oriented mmorpg, or at least accept a slower crafting process if you want to fully focus on the secondary game mode.

I don't know where you got that calculation, but it's nowhere near that. Even if that's true which i doubt, that's not the entire problem that exclusive WvW players have to face. Exotic armor boxes are account bound, you can't make money off them, ascended drops are super rare and thus can't be an argument if they're basically based purely on luck, You need 3 months of grinind for 1 piece if you only use grandmaster mark shards etc.And again - there's 3 modes in the game. There is no 1 main mode because they're all made separate with their own mechanics. If PvE was the "main mode" then everything WvW playaers have would need to be obtained in WvW and WvW would yield no rewards, it would just be a "side mode". But it's not, it clearly has systems in place to at least try to give WvW only players the resources they need, it's just in a great disbalance to reward per time spent. So i don't buy the "PvE main mode" argument, if that's true, they wouldn't have made other ones on release, they'd make them as an afterthought.

If they would flatten skirmish ticket gains across all tiers (up to the weekly maximum), and give people more grandmaster shards, a lot of those issues could be minor or completely irrelevant. But not everyone has time to grind to Diamond

even if all they do is play WvW

, and without Diamond it takes exponentially longer to get ascended or legendary. PvE doesn't have that problem.

Well, that's not exactly just my argument that PvE is the main game mode, that's what devs made pretty clear considering their attention, resources allocation and content delivery. You are treated exactly how they want you to be treated or are able to treat you. Not every person maining PvE enjoys spending time on gold farm maps, fractals or w/e generates most gold. I enjoy chain farming events in Queensdale and soloing bounties, should anet boost up the rewards there, so I can craft my asc gear quicker too? I enjoy dueling people in hotjoin arenas, should they add rewards there? Not exactly how it works, right ? Imo neither you, nor spvp playerbase is given scraps in terms of gold generation and ascended/legendary armor acquisition (maybe in terms of the content quality and unique prestige rewards tho).

This is where I got the number. WvW generates enough gold to craft way more than 1 asc piece per 3 months, and that's with less profitable reward track (the person from the video also didn't gather resource nodes, so the number will be higher than 7g). I think most players are upset about their g/h, because they either not as active as they should be or they simply don't pay attention to their loot. The exotic boxes may not be sellable, yet they still hold value, just like mystic clovers, karma and wvw currencies, so there's also that.

I mostly agree about the diamond chests and skirmish ticket allocation. I also think the shards amount should be increased to match the spvp boxes but not exceed them. And in my opinion the main problem of the WvW rewards is that it's designed to reward you for your time, I think it should reward you for your effort. Maybe if they rework that, they can twick something so more people are pleased. It won't ever be on par with PvE tho.

[Infusion.7149]

I don't understand the need to spam create threads about WvW rewards when it has been rehashed every few months.

However, that video is deceptive because if someone earns 69 ranks in 20 hours that's over 3 ranks an hour. Plus they had 3500 kills so that was likely all during primetime. If someone plays 1 hour of WvW a day to that extent and since launch they would be 10K WvW rank.

Also 130g in 20 hours is terrible when you consider food/utility only last 1 hour maximum without primers and so does Karka Toughness potion (which costs ~50s). A typical reward track is worth around 20g (see https://fast.farming-community.eu/wvw/reward-track ).

What WvW really needs is fewer expenses, not more liquid rewards. Grandmaster mark shards could have been grandmaster marks for example. Something even as simple as adding ascended foods' seeds to the synthesizers would be a start.

@ OP, if you don't do fractals purchase mist band + mist talisman and then use ascended from tickets.

• Exotic armor (Warlord's armor boxes or triumphant armor boxes) til you get ascended (craft if you don't PVE or have tickets for triumphant hero).
• Weapon from crafting / skirmish ticket vendor ; legendary weapon off TP if you're able to do gems to gold (luxury item)
• Trinket / ring = mist trinkets
• Amulet = mist amulet or "Vial of Salt"
• Backpiece from skirmish ticket / bough of melandru (2 infusion slots), exotic 78 crafter backpiece (1 infusion slot) or the warbringer prerequisites

For Ball of Dark Energy it is currently cheapest to salvage an offhand weapon ~20g.https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/ascended

@"Illumine Sparkler.6019" said:I’ve had more ascended drops in my wvw time than I have anywhere else, played from start but with a 5 year gap in the middle, so roughly 3.5 years of playtime, I’ve had more in wvw (rank under 1500 so shows how much time I spend in wvw) than I have in pvp/t4 fractals and what raids I have done combined. Adding on all the currencies and mats collected in that time is should be easy to get ascended stuff to salvage, for example from the Laurel vendor.

I doubt this. If you don't play fractals or do metas that drop ascended (Dragonfall / Tequatl/Drakkar) maybe. Also what are you going to do with a non-infused ring in a core 3 stat? Someone that "only plays WvW" isn't going to be swimming in ascended salvage kits or ways to make it even viable (by attuning).

PvP doesn't drop ascended, you would have to get it from rank up or reward tracks if you don't trade in ascended shards of glory.

[Kondor.2904]

@"Infusion.7149" said:I don't understand the need to spam create threads about WvW rewards when it has been rehashed every few months.

However, that video is deceptive because if someone earns 69 ranks in 20 hours that's over 3 ranks an hour. Plus they had 3500 kills so that was likely all during primetime. If someone plays 1 hour of WvW a day to that extent and since launch they would be 10K WvW rank.

Also 130g in 20 hours is terrible when you consider food/utility only last 1 hour maximum without primers and so does Karka Toughness potion (which costs ~50s). A typical reward track is worth around 20g (see https://fast.farming-community.eu/wvw/reward-track ).

What WvW really needs is fewer expenses, not more liquid rewards. Grandmaster mark shards could have been grandmaster marks for example. Something even as simple as adding ascended foods' seeds to the synthesizers would be a start.

The primetime argument can be applied to every game mode. In sPvP your q times will be enormous. You won't be able to farm/earn gold in PvE if you join it at weird hours when there are no commanders/parties/squads. It just might be less noticeable due to the population difference.

It's also not like you have to go through the excessive food and utilities costs to generate gold (we are not talking about hardcore GvG here, where supposedly this stat difference matters), again, I can make this argument about every single game mode and say something doesn't generate as much gold as everyone implies because I spend golds on writs and costly food every time, when I don't really have to and I also spend resources on boosters to boost up my magic find, etc. WvW does, however, provide cheaper food alternatives almost for free for those who want to bump their g/h.

If you want to maximize your efficiency, you should invest resources, I don't think anything's wrong with that, just like PvE raiders spending a lot of gold on food for more efficient clears. I also liked how you shaved off those 7g from the reward tracks :)

But generally I don't disagree about twicking the food costs or preferably making alternative ways of obtaining the best food by spending wvw specific resources. The grandmaster marks acquisition is also questionable, since again, you barely have to do anything to gain pips for the skirmish tracks. Like I was saying in the other threads, I'd rather have them introduce an option to exchange emblems for them (or for tickets/badges/memories/etc).

[schokelmei.8271]

Still reading through the replies (takes a while), but how can someone think GW2 is a pve game is beyond me. Raids and fractals weren't even a thing when the game was released. There was open world that ended with Orr and dungeons that were easy to do and all the endgame content was karma training in Shiverpeaks and Orr AND WvW and PvP. WvW is the only part were GW2 outshines all the competition in the market and it's most likely one of the most profitable parts of the game in gems/gold/$ players wasting here.

And no, you'll never make 7g/hour in WvW. Yes, you can do that with a lot of luck, but that's not close to the normal amount. I often check my playtime in WvW with GW2Efficiency and the calculator ends with 4g/h on a real good day. This would mean to fight large groups of enemy and beating them quick (more loot) and taking towers/keeps all 5-10 minutes. But that's not the reality of the game.A normal three to five hours in WvW is fighting a small group, defending a tower, taking a camp, killing a yak, waiting for something to fight, getting killed by a better group, etc. In that case your "income" is the participation which moves your reward track and rank with pip gain. That's far away from 7g/hour, more likely around 2g/hour.How much do you make in a complete living world area run? 30g+/h?

And as someone mentioned. You normally spend a lot of what you earn. You get a new gear, you need a new rune set. You need food. A patch hits, you need a whole new gear again.On my two most played characters (Ele/Necro) I sit on 6 different armor sets (Berserker, Marauder, Trailblazer, Celestial, Crusader, Minstrel) with changing runes more or less often depending what happens in the patch notes. Add weapons for Tempest, Weaver, Reaper, Core and Scourge, sometimes double because of sigils.In a normal, casual week 2-3 hours of playing a day (not necessarily every day) I make more money with the daily wvw quests (2 gold) than with the gameplay.How much money you make with 2-3 hours of fractals or the icebrood saga stuff? Right.

And no, you can't effectively afk through wvw rewards. It's way easier to leech those rewards in PvE and still PvE gives throws way more loot at you.

I'm not asking for free loot, but I'm asking for improvement of the reward structure. Why should it be fair to have to work ten times harder for rewards compared to other parts of the game that are easier to do?I'm ok with easy content and I don't think PvE rewards should be nerfed, I just want something equal for my game mode I put a lot of time into. It just feels being punished for playing wvw, while everyone else can have fun AND good rewards too.

[schokelmei.8271]

@"Kondor.2904" said:The primetime argument can be applied to every game mode. In sPvP your q times will be enormous. You won't be able to farm/earn gold in PvE if you join it at weird hours when there are no commanders/parties/squads. It just might be less noticeable due to the population difference.

It's also not like you have to go through the excessive food and utilities costs to generate gold (we are not talking about hardcore GvG here, where supposedly this stat difference matters), again, I can make this argument about every single game mode and say something doesn't generate as much gold as everyone implies because I spend golds on writs and costly food every time, when I don't really have to and I also spend resources on boosters to boost up my magic find, etc. WvW does, however, provide cheaper food alternatives almost for free for those who want to bump their g/h.

If you want to maximize your efficiency, you should invest resources, I don't think anything's wrong with that, just like PvE raiders spending a lot of gold on food for more efficient clears. I also liked how you shaved off those 7g from the reward tracks :)

But generally I don't disagree about twicking the food costs or preferably making alternative ways of obtaining the best food by spending wvw specific resources. The grandmaster marks acquisition is also questionable, since again, you barely have to do anything to gain pips for the skirmish tracks. Like I was saying in the other threads, I'd rather have them introduce an option to exchange emblems for them (or for tickets/badges/memories/etc).

You mean the 5-8 minute queue in Spvp at 04am on EU? Really punishing, ofc. Or being able to do dailies without even participating in PvP?Why would you cripple your stats by using "inferior food"? Would you do the same in raids? I don't do this. I play this game by trying to improve myself and support my server/guild/the people I play with. This may work in a pve environment with all strangers around you where nobody cares for each other but looting a dragon chest. And even there I'd show up with an optimal build, buffed and prepared.

I'm not asking for the right of getting 10g per lootbag, just a reasonable increase in rewards based on playtime as in "A guaranteed ascended chest with diamond chest once per week" (which could be the Grandmaster Mark instead) and a better gold/time ratio.

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

I also want the workload of my job before my last promotion, but the pay of what I got after.

If people want legendary, DO IT. Just do it, don't be unhappy with the path YOUare CHOOSING, and if you don't like any options available then DON'T DO IT.

[Infusion.7149]

@Kondor.2904 said:

@"Infusion.7149" said:I don't understand the need to spam create threads about WvW rewards when it has been rehashed every few months.

However, that video is deceptive because if someone earns 69 ranks in 20 hours that's over 3 ranks an hour. Plus they had 3500 kills so that was likely all during primetime. If someone plays 1 hour of WvW a day to that extent and since launch they would be 10K WvW rank.

Also 130g in 20 hours is terrible when you consider food/utility only last 1 hour maximum without primers and so does Karka Toughness potion (which costs ~50s). A typical reward track is worth around 20g (see

https://fast.farming-community.eu/wvw/reward-track

).

What WvW really needs is fewer expenses, not more liquid rewards. Grandmaster mark shards could have been grandmaster marks for example. Something even as simple as adding ascended foods' seeds to the synthesizers would be a start.

The primetime argument can be applied to every game mode. In sPvP your q times will be enormous. You won't be able to farm/earn gold in PvE if you join it at weird hours when there are no commanders/parties/squads. It just might be less noticeable due to the population difference.

It's also not like you have to go through the excessive food and utilities costs to generate gold (we are not talking about hardcore GvG here, where supposedly this stat difference matters), again, I can make this argument about every single game mode and say something doesn't generate as much gold as everyone implies because I spend golds on writs and costly food every time, when I don't really have to and I also spend resources on boosters to boost up my magic find, etc. WvW does, however, provide cheaper food alternatives almost for free for those who want to bump their g/h.

If you want to maximize your efficiency, you should invest resources, I don't think anything's wrong with that, just like PvE raiders spending a lot of gold on food for more efficient clears. I also liked how you shaved off those 7g from the reward tracks :)

But generally I don't disagree about twicking the food costs or preferably making alternative ways of obtaining the best food by spending wvw specific resources. The grandmaster marks acquisition is also questionable, since again, you barely have to do anything to gain pips for the skirmish tracks. Like I was saying in the other threads, I'd rather have them introduce an option to exchange emblems for them (or for tickets/badges/memories/etc).

PvP players really don't need that much gold after the initial unlocks and you get rewards even if you lose so long as it isn't custom arena (capped per day). If it wasn't profitable you wouldn't have the botting going on all hours of the day.

PvE players can solo farm. DRMs are soloable and there's even openworld solo farms. See the Fast Farming site.

[Veprovina.4876]

@Danikat.8537 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Danikat.8537 said:I know you said you have little/no experience of playing PvE but you seem to have a very warped view of how rewards in PvE work. No one is going to be making a profit while making legendary equipment, they're all designed to take a lot of time and money no matter how you go about doing it. It's quite normal to drain your wallet and your bank of materials and, as you said "end up with a solid balance of 0". What you're describing in terms of time and money/materials required is fairly typical for anyone making a legendary.

And yes having to salvage one or more pieces of ascended equipment to get the materials for legendary is a big sacrifice, but as @"Dawdler.8521" said if you can't afford to do that it's a sign that you're not quite ready to be making legendary equipment yet.

I think you're missing the point a bit... OP is

exclusively

playing WvW.People like me who do PvE as well as WvW (while maining WvW) can scrounge up materials and balls of dark energy pretty ok-ish, depends on how much i PvE.People who are

only in WvW

and never PvE can have things like legendary armor drag on for years (literally), especiall if they either just started, or can't finish diamond each week. Imagine someone who can't play every day, or play long periods. Those people don't get ascended let alone legendary in the time a PvE player that plays the same amount of time would get at least one legendary set. Especially because of how embarisingly low amount of grandmaster shards you get. And since WvW only players don't get enough resources to level up their crafting disciplines, the whole thing can literally slog to several years with the current system. Especially since, if you don't repeat diamond, you don't get any T6 mats whatsoever. You get some from reward tracks but not even close to being useful in a 6 months timeframe that is the miminum for skirmish tickets. Plus - if you don't have ascended first, you can forget about that entirely, grandmaster marks alone will take you about 2-3 months for just one piece of ascended. Which you can't then salvage because it's a precursor for a legendary... So you need at least two... Not to mention, to get ascended even available, you first need to complete the reward tracks for each piece. And you can forget about those too if you don't have T6 participation, T3 participation will also take a week for just one if you don't spend 40+ hours a week in WvW. Some people's work week is 40 hours for comparison...

Do you see where i'm going with this? You can't play WvW exclusively and make WvW legendary armor. You need to PvE too.

It's all fine and good to drain your bank while making a legendary, that's how it's supposed to be, it's after all - the ultimate last item you'll ever need, but the time to get it is borderline insulting to people's time.

And yes, i know, you can "afk with participation", that argument gets thrown around willy nilly, except you can't. I don't know how many commanders will just give you partcipation for doing nothing, you at least have to scout for them, and if you flip camps, that isn't afk because by the time you get to another camp, your participation will have dropped enough so that you have to constantly be flipping objectives to just keep it up. If some people do get participation for nothing, those are the extreme minority and not everyone has access to that luxury. So "it's easier to WvW because you can afk" argument doesn't hold up. If everyone could do it, sure, but not everyone can do it. You can take a 5 minute break but that's it, then you have to go flip objectives - to me, that's not any passive afk acquisition if you have to run around actively and do stuff.

The point is - i agree with you, it's not easy in PvE as well, there's no doubt about that. The point is - PvE players can get theirs doing exclusively PvE, while exclusive WvW players can't in any reasonable amount of time, they have to do PvE as well.

How quickly do you expect someone to make a legendary?

As quickly as the precedent set by the creators of the game. But balanced across game modes. Right now, one of the modes is not like the others...

I'm one of the people who can't play every day and can't be on for long when I do, and the quickest I've ever made a legendary weapon is 7 months - from the point I decided to start, by which time I already had a lot of the stuff I needed. The longest was my first which took 13 months, and 2.5 years from when I started playing. So the timescales you're describing sound reasonable to me. Also I've never gotten anywhere close to enough T6 materials just from drops, I've always had to buy them with gold or use laurels. I only know of one person who was actually trying to collect all the materials for a legendary directly instead of buying/trading for them and they acknowledged that meant it would take far, far longer to do. I'm not sure if they ever finished it. (But then what else would you use laurels for, once you've got ascended trinkets?)

And that was in PvE right? If you did only WvW, you wouldn't have made anything with those play times. I don't see why anyone is defending the fact that you need to make WvW your second job in order to do anything in it. If people could make a legendary weapon in 7 months by only playing WvW i wouldn't say anything honestly... And contrary to what it may seem, i'm totally ok with the weekly number of skirmish tickets as a time gate. What i'm not ok with is how they're distributed, by wood granting you nothing, while the majority of them are allocated to mitril and diamond. And again, especially new players, need to make WvW their job to reach diamond. Should new people get instant rewards? No, no one is arguing that. But a bit of balance to account for people's time would hurt no one, such as, flattening skirmish ticket gains across all tiers. It would still take people more than 6 months to get the set if they don't finish diamond each week, but instead of dragging this out to 2+ years, they could realistically do it in a year, maybe few months more by finishing gold (that still takes quite some time). It would still take far longer than PvE, but not insultingly longer. That's all i'm saying. And this is without mentioning other factors like food, utility, changing stats, runes, infusions, and all you need to be effective in WvW, not to mention the expenses of mats and grandmaster marks like you pointed out once you actually start making it. Add to that the fact that PvE always has players and solo farms if not - WvW doesn' thave that and if your server isn't doing well in a skirmish you're looking at an exponentially longer time to acquire anything and you're probably just going to break even each week.

I haven't made legendary armour yet, but I've got the WvW precursor chest piece, and a few items needed for the first collection to make PvE precursor armour and of the two I would definitely find the WvW version easier to complete. As someone said the vast majority of PvE won't give you any opppertunity to make legendary armour, you have to do raids (and you have to defeat multiple raid bosses multiple times). For a dedicated raider it might be fairly easy, but as a casual player it's much easier for me to jump into WvW when I feel like it and chip away at reward tracks and skirmish rewards which will get me some progress than try to find groups who will let me into a raid when I can't commit to a fixed schedule and hope we'll be able to clear a boss. I don't think I've ever gotten up to the diamond chest because I can't play that much in a week, but the lower tier chests work, it just takes longer.

Raids are PvE, let's not do unnecesarry divisions here. Unlike WvW, you can farm other PvE areas and just buy raid runs if you're that desperate, but if you put some effort into raidinig, i'm sure every raid training guild will net you at least some kills, plus the ability to form a group that will get you what you need in a close to predicted time. They're not that toxic. As i said, a month or 2 raid training, and you're good to go if you put your mind to it.And after all, try it, try to chip away from WvW stuff by exclusively playing WvW. You'll see that it's not anything like PvE.In about 8-ish moths i was able to finish 4 pieces of WvW legendary armor. And that was only by playing a LOT of WvW and a LOT of PvE side to side. Someone like you who can't devote so much time to one mode would never be able to complete even one in years. That's how different reward structure is.

Now again, i'm not advocating for WvW to have better rewards than PvE does, no one really wants that, but a slight balance in the reward structure, and some ackgnowledgement that WvW needs extra expenses as opposed to PvE (food etc.) that you can't cover with your WvW gold/h gain should be addressed.

I'm also not saying this would be an easy thing to balance, i know it won't, but the balance is needed.

@Kondor.2904 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Kondor.2904 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Danikat.8537 said:I know you said you have little/no experience of playing PvE but you seem to have a very warped view of how rewards in PvE work. No one is going to be making a profit while making legendary equipment, they're all designed to take a lot of time and money no matter how you go about doing it. It's quite normal to drain your wallet and your bank of materials and, as you said "end up with a solid balance of 0". What you're describing in terms of time and money/materials required is fairly typical for anyone making a legendary.

And yes having to salvage one or more pieces of ascended equipment to get the materials for legendary is a big sacrifice, but as @"Dawdler.8521" said if you can't afford to do that it's a sign that you're not quite ready to be making legendary equipment yet.

I think you're missing the point a bit... OP is

exclusively

playing WvW.People like me who do PvE as well as WvW (while maining WvW) can scrounge up materials and balls of dark energy pretty ok-ish, depends on how much i PvE.People who are

only in WvW

and never PvE can have things like legendary armor drag on for years (literally), especiall if they either just started, or can't finish diamond each week. Imagine someone who can't play every day, or play long periods. Those people don't get ascended let alone legendary in the time a PvE player that plays the same amount of time would get at least one legendary set. Especially because of how embarisingly low amount of grandmaster shards you get. And since WvW only players don't get enough resources to level up their crafting disciplines, the whole thing can literally slog to several years with the current system. Especially since, if you don't repeat diamond, you don't get any T6 mats whatsoever. You get some from reward tracks but not even close to being useful in a 6 months timeframe that is the miminum for skirmish tickets. Plus - if you don't have ascended first, you can forget about that entirely, grandmaster marks alone will take you about 2-3 months for just one piece of ascended. Which you can't then salvage because it's a precursor for a legendary... So you need at least two... Not to mention, to get ascended even available, you first need to complete the reward tracks for each piece. And you can forget about those too if you don't have T6 participation, T3 participation will also take a week for just one if you don't spend 40+ hours a week in WvW. Some people's work week is 40 hours for comparison...

Do you see where i'm going with this? You can't play WvW exclusively and make WvW legendary armor. You need to PvE too.

It's all fine and good to drain your bank while making a legendary, that's how it's supposed to be, it's after all - the ultimate last item you'll ever need, but the time to get it is borderline insulting to people's time.

And yes, i know, you can "afk with participation", that argument gets thrown around willy nilly, except you can't. I don't know how many commanders will just give you partcipation for doing nothing, you at least have to scout for them, and if you flip camps, that isn't afk because by the time you get to another camp, your participation will have dropped enough so that you have to constantly be flipping objectives to just keep it up. If some people do get participation for nothing, those are the extreme minority and not everyone has access to that luxury. So "it's easier to WvW because you can afk" argument doesn't hold up. If everyone could do it, sure, but not everyone can do it. You can take a 5 minute break but that's it, then you have to go flip objectives - to me, that's not any passive afk acquisition if you have to run around actively and do stuff.

The point is - i agree with you, it's not easy in PvE as well, there's no doubt about that. The point is - PvE players can get theirs doing exclusively PvE, while exclusive WvW players can't in any reasonable amount of time, they have to do PvE as well.

But pvp game modes are not the main modes in the game, PvE is. And I'm pretty sure guild wars has quite a generous system, compared to other games, that lets pvp players obtain a lot of things without stepping into pve.

So your whole argument is, this is a PvE game - PvP peasants should be happy with the scraps they're given because they're not the PvE player masterrace? Umm...Why have PvP modes then to begin with if they're just treated as second class cititzens?

What a lot of players seem to ask for is 3 separate games within 1 game. I'm not sure that's how it's supposed to work.

So tell me, except for GoB, how many times is a PvE player forced into WvW? And again, why have PvP modes to begin with if they're treated like second class citizens? Because there ARE 3 separate games in 1 like it or not. And their crowd rarely mixes. Just look at how angry PvE players are when they have to set foot into WvW for GoB - which is the easiest thing they have to do. How much PvE do WvW players need to do for their legendary? Especially if they're crafting a weapon. You need the do the ENTIRE core PvE.

WvW can net you around 7g/h if you actively play and finish skirmish tracks (and that's not counting ascended armor drops, exotic armor boxes, mystic clovers, grand master marks, gifts of battle). I'm pretty sure that's more than enough to get legendary armor if you're invested in the game mode (And if you are not, then why do you need legendary armor ?). Is it less than PvE and will take more time ? Yes. Is that bad ? I personally don't think so. You are playing guild wars 2 after all, not wvw wars 2, I think you're kinda supposed to play PvE in a pve oriented mmorpg, or at least accept a slower crafting process if you want to fully focus on the secondary game mode.

I don't know where you got that calculation, but it's nowhere near that. Even if that's true which i doubt, that's not the entire problem that exclusive WvW players have to face. Exotic armor boxes are account bound, you can't make money off them, ascended drops are super rare and thus can't be an argument if they're basically based purely on luck, You need 3 months of grinind for 1 piece if you only use grandmaster mark shards etc.And again - there's 3 modes in the game. There is no 1 main mode because they're all made separate with their own mechanics. If PvE was the "main mode" then everything WvW playaers have would need to be obtained in WvW and WvW would yield no rewards, it would just be a "side mode". But it's not, it clearly has systems in place to at least try to give WvW only players the resources they need, it's just in a great disbalance to reward per time spent. So i don't buy the "PvE main mode" argument, if that's true, they wouldn't have made other ones on release, they'd make them as an afterthought.

If they would flatten skirmish ticket gains across all tiers (up to the weekly maximum), and give people more grandmaster shards, a lot of those issues could be minor or completely irrelevant. But not everyone has time to grind to Diamond

even if all they do is play WvW

, and without Diamond it takes exponentially longer to get ascended or legendary. PvE doesn't have that problem.

Well, that's not exactly just my argument that PvE is the main game mode, that's what devs made pretty clear considering their attention, resources allocation and content delivery. You are treated exactly how they want you to be treated or are able to treat you. Not every person maining PvE enjoys spending time on gold farm maps, fractals or w/e generates most gold. I enjoy chain farming events in Queensdale and soloing bounties, should anet boost up the rewards there, so I can craft my asc gear quicker too? I enjoy dueling people in hotjoin arenas, should they add rewards there? Not exactly how it works, right ? Imo neither you, nor spvp playerbase is given scraps in terms of gold generation and ascended/legendary armor acquisition (maybe in terms of the content quality and unique prestige rewards tho).

Again, i don't agree with your PvE assessement, but we'll just have to agree to disagree here, there's no argument any of us can say that can even be verified. Anet didn't go on record saying "this is a PvE game". Especially since, they DID make WvW as a mode with a reward structure meaning, they clearly wanted people to play it.

Your Queensdale comparison is a bit disingenuous, you're comparing a low level are to an endgame content. Raids vs WvW is a much better comparison if you have to compare it to something. If you enjoy farming Queensdale, that's your thing, but since this is not endgame content, you're willingly going into it knowing that your rewards will pale in comparison if you did 80+ ones. That's your informed decision.

This is where I got the number. WvW generates enough gold to craft way more than 1 asc piece per 3 months, and that's with less profitable reward track (the person from the video also didn't gather resource nodes, so the number will be higher than 7g). I think most players are upset about their g/h, because they either not as active as they should be or they simply don't pay attention to their loot. The exotic boxes may not be sellable, yet they still hold value, just like mystic clovers, karma and wvw currencies, so there's also that.

Yeah... That's not really close to what's average, but @gebrechen.5643 already explained pretty much my thoughts on it so i'm not going to repeat it. But you did forget the cost of doing WvW in terms of required buffs etc. But again, already explained by OP.

Also, you're incorrect about ascended acquirement (and for the record, we're talking about exclusive WvW players here).You get 3 grandmaster shards per week. You need 30 - 40 grandmaster shards (3-4 grandmaster marks) for 1 peice. That's 6-9 months of WvW playing for *one ascended piece. 9 months for 1 ascended piece. You need two if you're going to salvage one for balls of dark energy requried for WvW legendary. That's 18 months of playing, not mentioning other stuff that's required.Your more than 1 piece of ascended per 3 months scenario is only viable if you heavily invest time into WvW for diamond each week, plus heavily invest time into PvE as well. That's a lot more time than most people have.

I mostly agree about the diamond chests and skirmish ticket allocation. I also think the shards amount should be increased to match the spvp boxes but not exceed them. And in my opinion the main problem of the WvW rewards is that it's designed to reward you for your time, I think it should reward you for your effort. Maybe if they rework that, they can twick something so more people are pleased. It won't ever be on par with PvE tho.

I agree with the weekly cap, but not the allocation. WvW is designed to reward you for the time but the time requirement it asks of people is not fair. Flattening skirmish ticket rewards across tiers would remedy that without making it too easy to craft a legendary. It would still take considerably longer to make WvW armor for people who can at most reach gold, but not insultingly longer.

I do agree that it should reward you for your effort. That's why @Lan Deathrider.5910 made a thread about the active reward structure that i think would work pretty great (sorry Lan for quoting you again. I just really like your idea! :tongue: ). TLDR; converting emblems into skirmish tickets and other rewards.

And i also agree with you that it will (nor it should be) ever on par with PvE. No one is arguing that. But a balance that respects people's time investment into the mode is in my opinion required. Now... Since Anet doesn't seem to right now be all that interested in WvW, it's anyone's guess how, when and if that'll happen. Alliances when right?

¯_(ツ)_/¯

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@Kondor.2904 said:But pvp game modes are not the main modes in the game, PvE is. And I'm pretty sure guild wars has quite a generous system, compared to other games, that lets pvp players obtain a lot of things without stepping into pve.

This is very much false. GW2 had advertise their game in the beginning solely on WvW aspect. The action combat was made for a PvP style game not PvE, in fact early on their PvE was so weak that almost no one did them, why do you think dungeons are dead. Thing is ANET decided to cop out and instead of trying to work more on their unique part of the game they decided to invest more time into PvE which is what you have now.The whole action combat is PvP based not PvE.