Balance patch is made by main skill designers and PvE only.

[felix.2386]

it is made by main skill designers, not skill balance team like CMC

and it is made to be prepare for EoD.

 

and we all know these skill designers only care about pve with minor touch to wvw, they care about more open world then pvp in the end.

these balances basically has 0 thought for wvw and pvp in general.

 

if you actually read the description of the classes, it's all about PvE balancing, Open world, Questing.

 

 

few example.

"Berserker has been in a great place with strong support, power, and condition builds that are successful in all content"

 

"Rifle is also receiving an improvement pass, improving its ability to combat multiple targets and giving it more utility as a ranged power weapon in general mission and open-world play."

 

"Thief has had some of the least build diversity in PvE gameplay for a while now, and it’s overdue for some improvement."

 

"This change will allow Renegade power builds to be more viable for general play in open-world and mission contexts, although it is unlikely to create a Renegade power build for high-end PvE content."

 

"In this patch, we’re weakening “Sic ‘Em!” when used by a Soulbeast by lowering the damage bonus to 25%, matching the current balancing for this skill in PvP and WvW. "

 

"Chronomancer has been steeply overperforming in a damage role in all content"

 

notably from chrono/berserker's comment you can see that, their mean of "all content" doesnt include PvP at all.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

There's more build diversity in PVE anyway...I'd rather see PVE changes to mechanics, then PVP numerical nerfs.

 

Still not really sure yet of my opinion on the patch...but some of the changes make sense and some of do not. Or rather, that some of these changes are rather uninspired and could have been better but they held back on things.

 

For example, Warrior Banners now requires a trait to effect 10 people...why? Why neuter the build diversity of raids or WvW by limiting the target cap. Then on the flip side they gave it a decent mechanic which is that it now creates a light field when placed...I mean that's a great change...and yet these two changes completely conflict with each other AND they don't fix the actual issues with banners...which is that they basically straight up suck in everything but raid fights. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[mistsim.2748]

I mean that makes sense because the changes will entirely kill Mallyx is pvp lol. 

[Quadox.7834]

Yep. And of course you could say that "PvE is what most people play and what brings in the money", but many of these changes seem to particularly target high-end content such as raids (for example, the emphasis on PChrono), and we know that the overwhelming majority of players do not play raids - which is why they paused development on raids. So it seems to me that you can't even make this excuse. They didn't balance after what most people play, they balanced after mid-to-high-end PvE and almost nothing else. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a PvE player.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[Leonidrex.5649]

they just flipped torment.
it gets 50% buff for pve damage, and 50% nerf to pvp damage.
so by default any pve build that uses torment gets stronger, and pvp gets a nerf.
BTW they nerf chrono in pve since it has ridiculous 42,5k benchmark, but after the torment changes, rev will push out something in the ballpark off 45k, same thing with mirage.
This entire patch is a sad joke.
Other than QoL improvements, almost everything is fucked be it for pvp or pve

[Quadox.7834]

31 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

they just flipped torment.
it gets 50% buff for pve damage, and 50% nerf to pvp damage.
so by default any pve build that uses torment gets stronger, and pvp gets a nerf.
BTW they nerf chrono in pve since it has ridiculous 42,5k benchmark, but after the torment changes, rev will push out something in the ballpark off 45k, same thing with mirage.
This entire patch is a sad joke.
Other than QoL improvements, almost everything is fucked be it for pvp or pve

And they inadvertently nerfed PvP power chrono as well by nerfing the slow trait. That should have been a split or something, or they should have just nerfed PvE chronophantasma to mirror the PvP version (i.e. 50% damage reduction) instead of touching the slow trait.

[UNOwen.7132]

1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

they just flipped torment.
it gets 50% buff for pve damage, and 50% nerf to pvp damage.
so by default any pve build that uses torment gets stronger, and pvp gets a nerf.
BTW they nerf chrono in pve since it has ridiculous 42,5k benchmark, but after the torment changes, rev will push out something in the ballpark off 45k, same thing with mirage.
This entire patch is a sad joke.
Other than QoL improvements, almost everything is fucked be it for pvp or pve

Yeah this patch was a real headscratcher. Talk about how thief lacks diversity in PvE ... and then remove one of the few builds that exist in boon thief. While also making thief in general significantly worse. Not that thief was even any good in PvE to begin with. Outside of like rifle DE on 2 bosses, but rifle DE is just a pain to play.

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, Quadox.7834 said:

And they inadvertently nerfed PvP power chrono as well by nerfing the slow trait. That should have been a split or something, or they should have just nerfed PvE chronophantasma to mirror the PvP version (i.e. 50% damage reduction) instead of touching the slow trait.

or they should remove this stupid kitten slow trait and buff mesmer skills to compensate.
I dont see power mirage or power core overperforming.
oh wait, turns out quadrupling phantasms and giving like 25% dmg modifier will turn kitten skills into OP skills.
who would have thought!

[Quadox.7834]

46 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

or they should remove this stupid kitten slow trait and buff mesmer skills to compensate.
I dont see power mirage or power core overperforming.
oh wait, turns out quadrupling phantasms and giving like 25% dmg modifier will turn kitten skills into OP skills.
who would have thought!

Chronophantasma should be removed but not the slow trait. 10% crit dmg on slow is not really strong in PvP at all. I mean, Superiority Complex already exists (25% crit dmg). And Vicious Expression (15%). Only reason it can overperform in PvE is because stacking chronos let you have perma slow but this will never be the case in PvP. The obvious solution is to simply split the slow trait modifier.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[Bazsi.2734]

I thought this update will be way bigger. But it's barely enough to ruin the "balance" in PvP we achived by deleting every rune/trait/amulet in need of actual balancing so... I just love how this gamemode is not even considered anymore.

[Kuma.1503]

There are a few things that could have been done better, but overall I'm more happy about the contents of this patch than I've been about virtually every PvP nerf patch we've gotten since Feb 2020. 

 

This is the kind of thing I like to see. New life given to underperformers (I've wanted to play Scrapper in PvE for ages), some new builds being given life (Mirage may compete for a slot with Alacrigade) neutered weapons being un-neutered (Engi Rifle), they finally nerfed holo and put some of that damage back into core. I have very few complaints. I'd like to see more of this. 

[KryTiKaL.3125]

Overall unless EoD is actually mindblowing and ANet is hard addressing what is fundamentally wrong in PvP, this game's PvP playerbase is going to have an even larger exodus to practically any of the upcoming MMORPGs releasing later this year (Elyon, Sword of Legends, Lost Ark, New World).

[Cynz.9437]

The fun part, they say there is little build diversity in pve for thieves and at the same time nerf detonate plasma so groups don't bring boon thief/drd anymore... just lol.

 

But yeah, I guess pvp doesn't count as game mode anymore.

[Quadox.7834]

7 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

There are a few things that could have been done better, but overall I'm more happy about the contents of this patch than I've been about virtually every PvP nerf patch we've gotten since Feb 2020. 

 

This is the kind of thing I like to see. New life given to underperformers (I've wanted to play Scrapper in PvE for ages), some new builds being given life (Mirage may compete for a slot with Alacrigade) neutered weapons being un-neutered (Engi Rifle), they finally nerfed holo and put some of that damage back into core. I have very few complaints. I'd like to see more of this. 

They didnt nerf holo, in fact they buffed prot holo. We are on the PvP forums.

[JazzXman.7018]

buffing necros and engis good idea, esp since they already have the most potent builds in pvp atm.

deleting counterplay from mantras and turning them into ammo shouts also plain stupid in a mechanical view.

lets see if they delete the whole playstyle from the game with the 24 secs ammo count recharge cd overnerf (daze mantra) or if they fine adjust that count recharge to a balanced lvl of 10-15 secs (what is a bit more than atm and shouldnt be more since powerblock and the short daze itself would be too overnerfed with more cd) but then they just buffed it mechanically by deleting counterplay... both ways are bad, so no bright light at the end of the tunnel...

 

the torment stuff is the only thing i like but that is also only accidently good for pvp not bc the devs had pvp in mind at any point... oh i also like the retal changes

 

so waiting for the pvp related patch notes and laugh about the number tweaks they will do trying to reduce the pve mechanic mess they produce.   

Edited May 11, 2021 by JazzXman.7018

[Dadnir.5038]

Retal is no more, there will be more counterplay to conditions and less conditions damage in sPvP... Sure it's not exactly what the PvP players wanted, right?

That said, the little speechs on the professions sure are misleading.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

13 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

There are a few things that could have been done better, but overall I'm more happy about the contents of this patch than I've been about virtually every PvP nerf patch we've gotten since Feb 2020. 

 

This is the kind of thing I like to see. New life given to underperformers (I've wanted to play Scrapper in PvE for ages), some new builds being given life (Mirage may compete for a slot with Alacrigade) neutered weapons being un-neutered (Engi Rifle), they finally nerfed holo and put some of that damage back into core. I have very few complaints. I'd like to see more of this. 

Just with endurance food and vigor a mirage can provide 60% alac uptime. That's without counting energy sigils\signet of inspiration\mirrors\any form of expertise.

Chrono should be the spec about manipulating time, but a mirage can provide about 100% alac uptime just with staff ambush spam. Literally wtf.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

I mean, you rite.

It's a PvE patch only affecting PvP through the skill/boon/condi changes.

 

On paper though, its much better and more interesting than the constant stream of nerfs and amulet removals we've been getting for over a year. 😴

Reworks and buffs; even if they only affect PvP indirectly, are still additions that will open up new ways to play. 👍

[Bast.7253]

It's definitely pve oriented with very little impact on pvp.

The biggest impact will come from the resistance change and the torment change. Other minor things will be the buff to the current core condi thief build by giving them bleeds in addition to the rest of their burst.

I am excited about the mantra change, removal of retaliation for my poor ele in wvw that no longer has to worry about trying to zerg break while defending a keep, and celestial amulet getting expertise and concentration. 

[Dadnir.5038]

6 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

It's definitely pve oriented with very little impact on pvp.

The biggest impact will come from the resistance change and the torment change. Other minor things will be the buff to the current core condi thief build by giving them bleeds in addition to the rest of their burst.

I am excited about the mantra change, removal of retaliation for my poor ele in wvw that no longer has to worry about trying to zerg break while defending a keep, and celestial amulet getting expertise and concentration. 

 

I think you're underestimating a lot how many skill changes will impact sPvP/WvW. There is like 1/5th PvE only changes while the other 4/5th affect all gamemodes. (And out of the 1/5th, there is quite a lot of changes that normalize PvE numbers with sPvP/WvW numbers)

 

All in all:

- Elementalist: None of the change will really impact any gamemode (at best a slight overall decrease in dps everywhere).

- Engineer: Buff everywhere. Overcharged shot no longer self knock down, alleluia! (this will greatly impact sPvP/WvW)

- Guardian: Power will become more aggressive while condi will probably fade away. (nearly all changes will impact sPvP/WvW)

- Mesmer: Staff and mantra will make a come back in sPvP/WvW with more reactivity and more defensive potential.

- Necromancer: another gain of sustain in sPvP/WvW, this will make players cry in sPvP/WvW.

- Ranger: Less burst, more CC. This will impact sPvP/WvW.

- Revenant: the patch look like a PvE only one, but, in fact, it will increase the potency of both retribution and devastation in sPvP/WvW.

- Thief: globally more way to apply condition but most build will miss the 3 extra point of initiative in trickery.

- Warrior: Nonsense from begining to the end... But, overall in sPvP it will translate into a loss of burst potential and sheer condition resilience for a slight increase of sustained damage.

[Quadox.7834]

11 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

I think you're underestimating a lot how many skill changes will impact sPvP/WvW. There is like 1/5th PvE only changes while the other 4/5th affect all gamemodes. (And out of the 1/5th, there is quite a lot of changes that normalize PvE numbers with sPvP/WvW numbers)

 

All in all:

- Elementalist: None of the change will really impact any gamemode (at best a slight overall decrease in dps everywhere).

- Engineer: Buff everywhere. Overcharged shot no longer self knock down, alleluia! (this will greatly impact sPvP/WvW)

- Guardian: Power will become more aggressive while condi will probably fade away. (nearly all changes will impact sPvP/WvW)

- Mesmer: Staff and mantra will make a come back in sPvP/WvW with more reactivity and more defensive potential.

- Necromancer: another gain of sustain in sPvP/WvW, this will make players cry in sPvP/WvW.

- Ranger: Less burst, more CC. This will impact sPvP/WvW.

- Revenant: the patch look like a PvE only one, but, in fact, it will increase the potency of both retribution and devastation in sPvP/WvW.

- Thief: globally more way to apply condition but most build will miss the 3 extra point of initiative in trickery.

- Warrior: Nonsense from begining to the end... But, overall in sPvP it will translate into a loss of burst potential and sheer condition resilience for a slight increase of sustained damage.

why would mesmer mantra make a comeback when they just nerfed them?

[Daishi.6027]

Not even surprised in the slightest, in fact this completely meets my expectation.
There is 0 thought, and this PvE vs PvP topic has been beaten to death since day 1.

The formula is simple: You balance classes around PvP, then you balance PvE around the PvP class balance = Everyone wins.

Instead A-net, as always takes the cheap and lazy path that continues to lead to their demise. Not just for PvP, although they are usually the first to suffer. But their numbers as a whole, desperate endeavors to expand the playerbase, always end up moot; because they are coming into everything we've already been suffering with. Then they go and make updates like last story which isn't going to cater very well to any PvE player anyways. Lol 
-Pro tip A-net: if you're bleeding players and money with what you have now, you're going to continue to bleed players even after you add more to the pool, unless you patch the problematic holes properly first.

We constantly fall into these loops and it needs to stop. Especially since as PvPers- you know, the major points the game was marketed on, that carried a certain level of expectation especially if coming from GW1; We have essentially been lied to.

Everyone who cares about PvP for this game should not buy the new expansion. Even if elite specs seem pretty good or interesting it doesn't matter. Look at PoF, look at HoT. Where are your classes now? Where were your classes then? Most likely butchered to the point of unrecognizable from what was originally sold to you. Which we expect some level of change in a MMO, but we also as consumers should expect a level of quality with consistency, and they just do not meet it time and time again. But maybe you're lucky, maybe you're the select few who were pandered to and propped up by bias from A-net's internals along with equally transient and evanescent pros with an agenda. But even then it serves you better to not buy the expac knowing just how volatile and fleeting things could be.

For as small as the PvP population is, the expansion sales are relied on enough to hurt A-nets bottom line if everyone who cared refused, and frankly that's the only voice PvP has.

[Dadnir.5038]

10 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

why would mesmer mantra make a comeback when they just nerfed them?

In a word: Playability.

 

Mantras without charging time become extremly reactive skills. The fact that you no longer have to watch yourself in order to avoid spending all charge and be forced to "reload" relieve a bit of mental burden that's better spent fighting. Sure the 2.5s cast time give you some one time wonders but in a highly reactive gamemode like sPvP, 2.5 cast time is 2s to long.

[JazzXman.7018]

6 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

In a word: Playability.

 

Mantras without charging time become extremly reactive skills. The fact that you no longer have to watch yourself in order to avoid spending all charge and be forced to "reload" relieve a bit of mental burden that's better spent fighting. Sure the 2.5s cast time give you some one time wonders but in a highly reactive gamemode like sPvP, 2.5 cast time is 2s to long.

deleting counterplay to the instant dazes was the worst decision anet could make for pvp/ wvw. also mesmer never would have waited for the overly long recharge count (like 24 secs cd for nothing else than a short daze? no thank you). even without f3 reset mesmer used both charges on demand (esp on daze mantra as interupt tool you cannot just braindead spam when using powerblock you used it when you needed to interrupt a keyskill in a keymoment) and then recharged the mantra to reset both charges after 12 secs without waiting for the overly long 24 secs ammo count recharge. mechanically its a buff or more accurate a dumb down of the mechanic by deleting counterplay to the instant charges and if this will be an overall buff (aside from the dumb down) or a cd overnerf deletion of interrupt gameplay on mes is still unknown and depends on how they fine tune the count recharge.

 

24 secs for a short daze and a relating trait like powerblock which is already way more situational/ less consistent/ less permanent trait reward and with way higher skill and effort requirement for the player compared to other skills/ traits is just way too long to take mantra or powerblock compared to other utilities and traits. so gg for dumping down the mechanic and double gg if anet just overnerfs the cds and with that deletes interrupt gameplay from mesmer and with that the most interesting, challening and skillful playstyle this casual game had to offer. so if they dont reduce the ammo cd recharge to around 10 secs (what is a bit more cd then currently) then it means back to non reactive easy to play stealthspam oneshot for power mes and even more braindead spam on condi mes.

Edited May 3, 2021 by JazzXman.7018

[Quadox.7834]

5 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

deleting counterplay to the instant dazes was the worst decision anet could make for pvp/ wvw. also mesmer never would have waited for the overly long recharge count (like 24 secs cd for nothing else than a short daze? no thank you). even without f3 reset mesmer used both charges on demand (esp on daze mantra as interupt tool you cannot just braindead spam when using powerblock you used it when you needed to interrupt a keyskill in a keymoment) and then recharged the mantra to reset both charges after 12 secs without waiting for the overly long 24 secs ammo count recharge. mechanically its a buff or more accurate a dumb down of the mechanic by deleting counterplay to the instant charges and if this will be an overall buff (aside from the dumb down) or a cd overnerf deletion of interrupt gameplay on mes is still unknown and depends on how they fine tune the count recharge.

 

24 secs for a short daze and a relating trait like powerblock which is already way more situational/ less consistent/ less permanent trait reward and with way higher skill and effort requirement for the player compared to other skills/ traits is just way too long to take mantra or powerblock compared to other utilities and traits. so gg for dumping down the mechanic and double gg if anet just overnerfs the cds and with that deletes interrupt gameplay from mesmer and with that the most interesting, challening and skillful playstyle this casual game had to offer. so if they dont reduce the ammo cd recharge to around 10 secs (what is a bit more cd then currently) then it means back to non reactive easy to play stealthspam oneshot for power mes and even more braindead spam on condi mes.

They won't reduce count recharge