I feel screwed over by the Legendary Armory [Merged]

[Ayrilana.1396]

49 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Yea that's my guess too as to why, however, that doesn't so much justify the extra path to getting the Mistforged skins without buying any Armor. I would guess you could argue that some pvp players dont need the upgraded armor but just the skins, however for wvw that has never been the case. So simply put, looking at the issue historically does help contextualize it but it doesn't mean its balanced or fair. It just explains why it ended up being unbalanced, at best.

How I look at it is that the means to acquire the sets are not exactly balanced either. For the PvE armor, you would typically have to actively be participating and not to mention the time spent to bel able to earn LI. For both sPvP and WvW, it’s more of a time sink that can be done passively. For sPvP, win or lose, you make progress towards the legendary armor. For WvW, you just need to maintain your participation. 

[Moradorin.6217]

1 hour ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

How I look at it is that the means to acquire the sets are not exactly balanced either. For the PvE armor, you would typically have to actively be participating and not to mention the time spent to bel able to earn LI. For both sPvP and WvW, it’s more of a time sink that can be done passively. For sPvP, win or lose, you make progress towards the legendary armor. For WvW, you just need to maintain your participation. 

Meh..that argument has limited viability. I mean, yeh you have to participate to get LI but in same sense that the most lazy type example I can come up with for earning wvw pips is to run around and kill pve mobs and be willing to die some times. You still have to pretty much pay attention and do some basic pve correctly  and also deal with some pvp combat or you will not maintain ur t6 participation, but you will eventually enough tickets to buy armor and gifts. Likewise, the most lazy type raider really isnt forced to do more than just join training and no KP runs on easy mobs like Cairn, VG, etc. It doesnt require they be skilled or be able to get weekly clears to eventually collect 150 LI. The only big skill check of getting Envoy armor is the Envoy 2 collection requiring the person actually does greens correctly on a cairn kill without getting killed. The rest of the collections tasks are very basic and doable by any avg pve player. For the lazy player its only a matter of time before they get into a run that gets them each kill provided they just bring the things like Itzle poison, etc when they raid. That's not really a high bar and arguably not much different from the most lazy route to legendary armor from wvw and pvp. In fact, the WvW and PvP armor will take MUCH MUCH longer if you want the Mistforged skins due to rank requirements for the skins.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Moradorin.6217

[Jong.5937]

I totally agree. I don't buy into this "raid armor hard, PvP/WvW easy argument". Sure it's possible to earn some pips without contributing, but there will be no more than a handful who invest 12 hours a week (or so) for 22-26 weeks (more for mistforged chest piece) per set without committing to the game mode at least as much as some average raider. And if you are that committed you can find ways to be carried in raids too.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Jong.5937

[Junkpile.7439]

Me too. It's too good now, but i don't wanna make one because too much work  to check what mats all those gifts and kittens require.

[ReaverKane.7598]

2 hours ago, Jong.5937 said:

I totally agree. I don't buy into this "raid armor hard, PvP/WvW easy argument". Sure it's possible to earn some pips without contributing, but there will be no more than a handful who invest 12 hours a week (or so) for 22-26 weeks (more for mistforged chest piece) per set without committing to the game mode at least as much as some average raider. And if you are that committed you can find ways to be carried in raids too.

Except that for a long time you could just sit on monuments with a keyboard twitch and keep full participation...
You can even just run around the monuments capping, and you get full participation. Not exactly the same as clearing full raids, and doing chak gerants.

[Ayrilana.1396]

3 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Meh..that argument has limited viability. I mean, yeh you have to participate to get LI but in same sense that the most lazy type example I can come up with for earning wvw pips is to run around and kill pve mobs and be willing to die some times. You still have to pretty much pay attention and do some basic pve correctly  and also deal with some pvp combat or you will not maintain ur t6 participation, but you will eventually enough tickets to buy armor and gifts. Likewise, the most lazy type raider really isnt forced to do more than just join training and no KP runs on easy mobs like Cairn, VG, etc. It doesnt require they be skilled or be able to get weekly clears to eventually collect 150 LI. The only big skill check of getting Envoy armor is the Envoy 2 collection requiring the person actually does greens correctly on a cairn kill without getting killed. The rest of the collections tasks are very basic and doable by any avg pve player. For the lazy player its only a matter of time before they get into a run that gets them each kill provided they just bring the things like Itzle poison, etc when they raid. That's not really a high bar and arguably not much different from the most lazy route to legendary armor from wvw and pvp. In fact, the WvW and PvP armor will take MUCH MUCH longer if you want the Mistforged skins due to rank requirements for the skins.

 

The point was that in order to make legendary progression in PvE, players had to spend time working on their rotations, learning the raids, and actively participating in every encounter for its duration.  This is vastly different from sPvP where you just need to be present in the match or repair the a wall once during a defend objective event (i.e. SMC wall) every 10-12 minutes.  The rest of the time you can just AFK somewhere.  WvW and sPvP can be jumped straight into without by a new player.

 

You claim that it doesn't require skill to be able to weekly clears to eventually collect 150 LI but then what are all of these threads asking for an easy mode and such?  If, according to you, it's not the skill level stopping them then what else is there?  Is the claim now that they're just lazy?

 

Anyway, this is diverting from my point that I made that the acquisition of legendary armor between PvE and SPvP/WvW is different.

[wolfsblut.9435]

2 hours ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

You claim that it doesn't require skill to be able to weekly clears to eventually collect 150 LI but then what are all of these threads asking for an easy mode and such?  If, according to you, it's not the skill level stopping them then what else is there?  Is the claim now that they're just lazy?

Raids are not especially hard - the mechanics and the builds are hard "to learn", because there is not much opportunity to practice. Yes, you can find a group that is patient enough so that you get your time, the time you need. But finding such a group is also not that easy. Most ppl try raids, but end up being kicked and left frustrated.

Fun part? To clear a raid is so easy, that the only focus is on speed clear - No body wants to waste any time.

[Oliber.5142]

What all of the acquisition methods have in common is they require many weeks of game play, which cannot be skipped with gold/gems/cash shop items.

 

If they provide a unique skin or not, it is very frustrating that someone who has put in that extra effort to create multiple of the same type and weight are recompensed, however those that created from a different acquisition method are not.

 

The end result is the same - your character is able to wear one set of armor, and if you did take the time to create more different sets - well, more fool us.

[The Fear.3865]

9 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Meh..that argument has limited viability. I mean, yeh you have to participate to get LI but in same sense that the most lazy type example I can come up with for earning wvw pips is to run around and kill pve mobs and be willing to die some times. You still have to pretty much pay attention and do some basic pve correctly  and also deal with some pvp combat or you will not maintain ur t6 participation, but you will eventually enough tickets to buy armor and gifts. Likewise, the most lazy type raider really isnt forced to do more than just join training and no KP runs on easy mobs like Cairn, VG, etc. It doesnt require they be skilled or be able to get weekly clears to eventually collect 150 LI. The only big skill check of getting Envoy armor is the Envoy 2 collection requiring the person actually does greens correctly on a cairn kill without getting killed. The rest of the collections tasks are very basic and doable by any avg pve player. For the lazy player its only a matter of time before they get into a run that gets them each kill provided they just bring the things like Itzle poison, etc when they raid. That's not really a high bar and arguably not much different from the most lazy route to legendary armor from wvw and pvp. In fact, the WvW and PvP armor will take MUCH MUCH longer if you want the Mistforged skins due to rank requirements for the skins.

The difference is you can make both pve and wvw armor at the same time, you are not timegated between two different game mode sets. If a lot of People got the first pve set, it's waaaay harder and longer to deal with the second one (cuz if you try to make 300 li with cairn vg and escort hf) , while wvw set is like completly free of requierement, and if you are a casual wvw or pvp player, you don't even have to play so much cuz you probably already have some tickets. 

 

Honestly I think people argue with that has no idea how effort is to get envoy. About compensation well, for that reason I think wvw and pvp players with multiple sets and who never try a single raid, should not have the pve skin, they should have give something else like legy weapons or conflux/transcendance. But tbh I don't care, good for them ! 

Edited July 24, 2021 by The Fear.3865

[Moradorin.6217]

14 hours ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

The point was that in order to make legendary progression in PvE, players had to spend time working on their rotations, learning the raids, and actively participating in every encounter for its duration.  This is vastly different from sPvP where you just need to be present in the match or repair the a wall once during a defend objective event (i.e. SMC wall) every 10-12 minutes.  The rest of the time you can just AFK somewhere.  WvW and sPvP can be jumped straight into without by a new player.

 

You claim that it doesn't require skill to be able to weekly clears to eventually collect 150 LI but then what are all of these threads asking for an easy mode and such?  If, according to you, it's not the skill level stopping them then what else is there?  Is the claim now that they're just lazy?

 

Anyway, this is diverting from my point that I made that the acquisition of legendary armor between PvE and SPvP/WvW is different.

Not exactly. You are miss-representing my argument. That is, my argument is that you Don't need weekly clears to get 150 LI and perfected envoy armor. Just like in wvw you dont need full pips each week. In raids, you dont have to really learn rotations or even know the encounters well. I run raids and have done ALLOT of WvW. I KNOW people often join training and practice runs who dont have good rotations or know the mechanics well, but they still get kills on the bosses cause if they join and no one kicks them and the kill happens they get credit. No actual skill required. However, obviously this is not efficient and not necessarily healthy for the raiding but its perfectly doable. In other words, a patient person who wants perfected envoy doesnt need any of the skill you mention. They do, however, at least have to be able to get cairn greens done for envoy 2, as I said.

 

Similarly, in wvw or pvp one will be more efficient and will be a "healthier" part of the WvW scene if they learn a proper build, learn about WvW strats, etc, however, as you argue none of that is "Required". Anyone can just run in circles if they are willing to get killed some times and take a TON of time each week for many many weeks.

 

As I said, the argument that raid armor takes allot of dedicated learning, etc but wvw and pvp doesn't is false.

[Moradorin.6217]

9 hours ago, The Fear.3865 said:

The difference is you can make both pve and wvw armor at the same time, you are not timegated between two different game mode sets. If a lot of People got the first pve set, it's waaaay harder and longer to deal with the second one (cuz if you try to make 300 li with cairn vg and escort hf) , while wvw set is like completly free of requierement, and if you are a casual wvw or pvp player, you don't even have to play so much cuz you probably already have some tickets. 

 

Honestly I think people argue with that has no idea how effort is to get envoy. About compensation well, for that reason I think wvw and pvp players with multiple sets and who never try a single raid, should not have the pve skin, they should have give something else like legy weapons or conflux/transcendance. But tbh I don't care, good for them ! 

Your missing the argument. The issue is that if I make Perfected envoy for say Med and I later want the heavy and light sets I, like anyone, has to craft a precursor ascended set then upgrade to legendary to get the final envoy skin set. If I already crafted light and heavy wvw armor then it ends up requireing I made 2 more sets of useless legendary armor since I only need the skin and legendary function isnt needed once you have a set of light, med & heavy. However, anyone who crafted 3 sets all envoy can just buy the other skins sets without the expense of crafting redundant legendary armor which is useless.

 

Therefore, the result is that people who craft legendary envoy have a large advantage in that they can aquire all 3 skins sets for light, med, heavy after crafting only 1 set for each armor weight. In contrast, anyone who crafted WvW and PvP legendary for one or more sets will be required to make more otherwise useless armor ONLY for the skin.

 

I suggest either wvw and pvp armor is due a 3rd skin set for legendary upgrade version ONLY - OR - The Perfected Envoy skins should have a way to buy JUST the skin. I would also say the Perfected Envoy skins should ONLY be buyable after completing both Envoy 1 and Envoy 2 collections and should probably cost both Mag and Li for each skin. That way its balanced between both modes and no one is forced to pay 400g per armor skin for one while the other is free.

[Moradorin.6217]

Those making the claim that its all ok because "raids hard  wvw/pvp easy" is attempting to ignore the actual issue. They are, in effect, grasping at straws.

[Ayrilana.1396]

 

Be careful about countering someone's argument just for the sake of countering it as one that does this tends to tunnel and it just weakens their position.

 

53 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Not exactly. You are miss-representing my argument. That is, my argument is that you Don't need weekly clears to get 150 LI and perfected envoy armor. Just like in wvw you dont need full pips each week. In raids, you dont have to really learn rotations or even know the encounters well. I run raids and have done ALLOT of WvW. I KNOW people often join training and practice runs who dont have good rotations or know the mechanics well, but they still get kills on the bosses cause if they join and no one kicks them and the kill happens they get credit. No actual skill required. However, obviously this is not efficient and not necessarily healthy for the raiding but its perfectly doable. In other words, a patient person who wants perfected envoy doesnt need any of the skill you mention. They do, however, at least have to be able to get cairn greens done for envoy 2, as I said.

 

Similarly, in wvw or pvp one will be more efficient and will be a "healthier" part of the WvW scene if they learn a proper build, learn about WvW strats, etc, however, as you argue none of that is "Required". Anyone can just run in circles if they are willing to get killed some times and take a TON of time each week for many many weeks.

 

As I said, the argument that raid armor takes allot of dedicated learning, etc but wvw and pvp doesn't is false.

 

WvW and sPvP require no skill level to make progress towards the legendary armor.  A brand new player can go straight to either and make progress.  This is due to sPvP only requiring the player be in the match and pips being rewarded win or lose.  For WvW, it's just a matter of maintaining participation which is fairly easy to do and doesn't require you to be active at all until you need to reset the timer.  Raids, on the other hand, require the player to learn their rotations, learn and be able to execute the boss mechanics, and to get into a group which can succeed.  What's required of the player is different.

 

How many LI do you think those players who join training raids to get carried earn per week?  Let's say that they manage to get five.  That means it'll take them 30 weeks to get the 150 LI through raids not counting the other bosses that they'll need to kill at least once for the collections.  For subsequent armor, it'll take them 60 weeks.  Training runs also do not always end in success so you could spend two hours with a group and not actually get a win.

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Ayrilana.1396

[Dante.1763]

8 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

Be careful about countering someone's argument just for the sake of countering it as one that does this tends to tunnel and it just weakens their position.

 

WvW and sPvP require no skill level to make progress towards the legendary armor.  A brand new player can go straight to either and make progress.  This is due to sPvP only requiring the player be in the match and pips being rewarded win or lose.  For WvW, it's just a matter of maintaining participation which is fairly easy to do and doesn't require you to be active at all until you need to reset the timer.  Raids, on the other hand, require the player to learn their rotations, learn and be able to execute the boss mechanics, and to get into a group which can succeed.  What's required of the player is different.

 

How many LI do you think those players who join training raids to get carried earn per week?  Let's say that they manage to get five.  That means it'll take them 30 weeks to get the 150 LI through raids not counting the other bosses that they'll need to kill at least once for the collections.  For subsequent armor, it'll take them 60 weeks.  Training runs also do not always end in success so you could spend two hours with a group and not actually get a win.

 

Been doing training raids lately, 0 LI so far xD The trainers arent trying to finish the boss encounter, but rather showing off the mechanics. Once all mechanics are shown they do some more runs but none have been truly done.

 

They are also forgetting is that one cannot truly work on both raid and wvw armor at the same time. One has to max out wvw pips every week and that takes a long time every day. I dont think ive reached max pips ever in wvw, due to only playing an hour or two a day in that mode, if that.

[Moradorin.6217]

17 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

Be careful about countering someone's argument just for the sake of countering it as one that does this tends to tunnel and it just weakens their position.

 

WvW and sPvP require no skill level to make progress towards the legendary armor.  A brand new player can go straight to either and make progress.  This is due to sPvP only requiring the player be in the match and pips being rewarded win or lose.  For WvW, it's just a matter of maintaining participation which is fairly easy to do and doesn't require you to be active at all until you need to reset the timer.  Raids, on the other hand, require the player to learn their rotations, learn and be able to execute the boss mechanics, and to get into a group which can succeed.  What's required of the player is different.

 

How many LI do you think those players who join training raids to get carried earn per week?  Let's say that they manage to get five.  That means it'll take them 30 weeks to get the 150 LI through raids not counting the other bosses that they'll need to kill at least once for the collections.  For subsequent armor, it'll take them 60 weeks.  Training runs also do not always end in success so you could spend two hours with a group and not actually get a win.

 

I totally agree that it would be a far from ideal or typical raider who does what I suggest. Likewise, its not a typical wvw player who is going to run in circles around the monuments as was suggested. Therefore, the arguments are equal. That is, both are the minimal effeort paths for each game mode: a lazy raider who joins raids without being properly prepared in hopes of getting carried for kills would eventually get a set of armor but its not efficient and any real raider would resent them to say the least. Likewise, a lazy wvw and pvp player who goes in unprepared in hopes of getting carried which will eventually lead to enough stuff to get a set of armor from pvp and/or wvw, but will not be very popular with the community/server. I made my argument carefully. You just seem unprepared to accept the fact.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Moradorin.6217

[ReaverKane.7598]

1 hour ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

I totally agree that it would be a far from ideal or typical raider who does what I suggest. Likewise, its not a typical wvw player who is going to run in circles around the monuments as was suggested. Therefore, the arguments are equal. That is, both are the minimal effeort paths for each game mode: a lazy raider who joins raids without being properly prepared in hopes of getting carried for kills would eventually get a set of armor but its not efficient and any real raider would resent them to say the least. Likewise, a lazy wvw and pvp player who goes in unprepared in hopes of getting carried which will eventually lead to enough stuff to get a set of armor from pvp and/or wvw, but will not be very popular with the community/server. I made my argument carefully. You just seem unprepared to accept the fact.

Your argument isn't wrong, the armor sets for PVP modes were half-assed, and don't even have a unique skin, using the ascended one.
I think the reason why people aren't grasping your argument, is that nothing changed, this was ALWAYS the case, the Legendary Armory didn't change the situation, you've always had access to the PVP and WVW skins without having to build a legendary, since you always were able to just buy the ascended and get the same skin.

[Ayrilana.1396]

2 hours ago, Dante.1763 said:

Been doing training raids lately, 0 LI so far xD The trainers arent trying to finish the boss encounter, but rather showing off the mechanics. Once all mechanics are shown they do some more runs but none have been truly done.

 

They are also forgetting is that one cannot truly work on both raid and wvw armor at the same time. One has to max out wvw pips every week and that takes a long time every day. I dont think ive reached max pips ever in wvw, due to only playing an hour or two a day in that mode, if that.

It does take awhile. I believe that I was spending an entire day to hit the weekly cap when I farmed the armor and ring. It wasn’t the most enjoyable experience. 

[Dante.1763]

1 minute ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

It does take awhile. I believe that I was spending an entire day to hit the weekly cap when I farmed the armor and ring. It wasn’t the most enjoyable experience. 

Honestly its..just frustrating. W3 seems to be just not done for training much and i hate that i need it.

[Ayrilana.1396]

2 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

I totally agree that it would be a far from ideal or typical raider who does what I suggest. Likewise, its not a typical wvw player who is going to run in circles around the monuments as was suggested. Therefore, the arguments are equal. That is, both are the minimal effeort paths for each game mode: a lazy raider who joins raids without being properly prepared in hopes of getting carried for kills would eventually get a set of armor but its not efficient and any real raider would resent them to say the least. Likewise, a lazy wvw and pvp player who goes in unprepared in hopes of getting carried which will eventually lead to enough stuff to get a set of armor from pvp and/or wvw, but will not be very popular with the community/server. I made my argument carefully. You just seem unprepared to accept the fact.

My argument wasn’t about “how people choose to do a particular mode” but “how a particular mode functions”. In WvW, the bare minimum effort is to do something to reset the timer. Anything else done in between that time does not increase your pip gain for that tick. 
 

There is a difference between acquiring legendary armor through raids compared to sPvP and WvW. This is not a position that I will budge on. 

[Ayrilana.1396]

8 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

Honestly its..just frustrating. W3 seems to be just not done for training much and i hate that i need it.

Xera can also be due to the gliding and perhaps with the bloodstone platforms members get teleported to during the second phase. I’ve seen people mess those up. 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Ayrilana.1396
Included a boss from W2 by accident

[Dante.1763]

7 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

Xera can also be due to the gliding and perhaps with the bloodstone platforms members get teleported to during the second phase. I’ve seen people mess those up. 

Oh no, i mean nobodies doing it at all. They do W1 and W2 constantly, but W3 is a rarity 😕

[Jong.5937]

16 hours ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

My argument wasn’t about “how people choose to do a particular mode” but “how a particular mode functions”. In WvW, the bare minimum effort is to do something to reset the timer. Anything else done in between that time does not increase your pip gain for that tick. 
 

There is a difference between acquiring legendary armor through raids compared to sPvP and WvW. This is not a position that I will budge on. 

You may not budge. Doesn't make it right. Getting a few pips a week rotating around monuments may be possible but it will be a vanishingly small number of people who will do that for some 250 hours over 22+ weeks, per set. There will be a similar vanishingly small number dedicated to leaching raids, in fact, I might argue, maybe more, given the dread most PvE players have for competitive modes!

 

Almost everyone you see with WvW legendary armor is a serious WvW player, at least by the end, with the same commitment to builds and skills as the average raider.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Jong.5937

[ReaverKane.7598]

3 hours ago, Jong.5937 said:

You may not budge. Doesn't make it right. Getting a few pips a week rotating around monuments may be possible but it will be a vanishingly small number of people who will do that for some 250 hours over 22+ weeks, per set. There will be a similar vanishingly small number dedicated to leaching raids, in fact, I might argue, maybe more, given the dread most PvE players have for competitive modes!

 

Almost everyone you see with WvW legendary armor is a serious WvW player, at least by the end, with the same commitment to builds and skills as the average raider.

From my experience, its quite the opposite. Its usually people just roaming and pveing in WvW to get pips because they don't want to go to raids to get legendary armor. Or people that have one or two sets of Raid armor, and finished their other sets with WvW armor since its so much easier (and faster).

No matter how you cut it, wvw and pvp armor are much easier to acquire, and are leechable. Raid armor doesn't just require you to clear raids afk, you need to participate in them to get the achievements done. You have to do Greens and not die in Deimos. That can't be just leeched.

[Ashantara.8731]

21 minutes ago, ReaverKane.7598 said:

From my experience, its quite the opposite. Its usually people just roaming and pveing in WvW to get pips because they don't want to go to raids to get legendary armor.

 

I can't agree on that. All the owners of legendary WvW armor I know (including myself) are serious WvW players.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Probably depends on who you hang out with. I'm in a WvW guild, so not really any dedicated pip farmers.

 

In my PvE group, we have more people that just don't care about legendary armor period or have it. There was no in between and none of them thought it was a good idea to make wvw armor if they didn't like it. But we usually can pull enough people to do w/e raids with no issue. Almost everyone agrees that legendary is a gold sink, and nothing to cry about.

 

What can I say; I don't hang around leeches I guess. . Both my pve and wvw friends would find the idea of capping ruins for a year laughable, but I guess that's what unskilled players have to think of-- don't take that away from them.  I'm not saying people don't do that, but I can't just fathom someone spending the time of a part time job dedicated to not playing the game.

 

 

Then again, I feel "skill" is kind of a red herring here anyways. If you think that having a legendary means "I'm better than you", well, that's in need of a reality check.

 

Edit: In retrospect, Legendary Armor should have required the equivalent of emblems, but I am not sure how people would feel about that, and it would be unfair to make this change now. I suppose you could argue the trinkets from pvp/wvw have marginally a bit more meaning than cycling ruins every day.

Edited July 25, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480