Whats the best roaming-camp flipping-duelist? Soulbeast? Deadeye? Scrapper? Holo? Daredevil? something else?

[Fiddler.5174]

Whats the best roaming-camp flipping-duelist? Soulbeast? Deadeye? Scrapper? Holo? Daredevil? something else?

 

[Dawdler.8521]

All of them and none of what you spec because a "duelist" build will probably be bad for camp killing but you have templates to shift between. 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

If I were to rank them in my experience:

 

#1: Thief.  Daredevil, Deadeye, doesn't matter. 

#2: Scrapper.

#3: Weaver

#4: Soulbeast

#5: Dragonhunter

 

Other professions I've either never played, never seen, or they're bad at dueling and flipping camps.  Personally I prefer to play Celestial Weaver and Marauder Scrapper.  

[Gorem.8104]

Good dueling SB will always win with a boonbeast build, but for camp flipping any strong class does it well. 

Playing a thief means you love running away and not killing any actual good player. 

[MrForz.1953]

And here we go again.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

If you know what Los is then everyone can cap camps very fast. 

 

People I know just switch to a "camp" template, pull the entire camp into a corner, kill all npcs in 2-3 seconds and switch back to the roaming build. 

[Widmo.3186]

The best is what your best class is. Period. Trust me, if you played warrior for 8 years and then switch to soulbeast because its better, it wont make you instantly S-tier player. And not even in next few months. High skilled mechanical player can play whatever class they want and make it A-tier, the visible difference is only on top level that you probably wont ever achieve so who cares.

And as usual teef haters because it has stealth access and highest mobility in the game. Keep crying and providing us content lol.

[Clownmug.8357]

The best camp flipper is the friends you made along the way.

[anduriell.6280]

5 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

If I were to rank them in my experience:

 

#1: Thief.  Daredevil, Deadeye, doesn't matter. 

#2: Scrapper.

#3: Weaver

#4: Soulbeast

#5: Dragonhunter

 

Other professions I've either never played, never seen, or they're bad at dueling and flipping camps.  Personally I prefer to play Celestial Weaver and Marauder Scrapper.  

This is pretty accurate IMO. Depending on your preferred gameplay style soulbeast can go higher up to #2 if you like to pewpew things better than meleish. 

[bigo.9037]

1: thief (dd or de) best duelist, best mobility but not I’m not sure how fast they can actually kill the npcs. 

 

2: holo or scrapper, very versatile, good mobility, only wins out vs soulbeast cus of nades tbh. Scrapper has reflects for npcs so cleaving camp is ez and fast. 

 

3: soulbeast good mobility, best single target dmg but not as much aoe dmg as nade engi, has pet to agro npcs for easy cleaving

 

4: probably warrior, reve or mesmer, maybe weaver but idk. War has good mobility, good sustain and aoe, rev has good mobility and probably higher dmg than war but less cc, mesmer has 2nd best mobility in game but power is not great, relies on condi stats which have low dmg on camp npcs.

 

5: everything except necro is a tie from here

[Aeolus.3615]

1 hour ago, bigo.9037 said:

1: thief (dd or de) best duelist, best mobility but not I’m not sure how fast they can actually kill the npcs. 

 

2: holo or scrapper, very versatile, good mobility, only wins out vs soulbeast cus of nades tbh. Scrapper has reflects for npcs so cleaving camp is ez and fast. 

 

3: soulbeast good mobility, best single target dmg but not as much aoe dmg as nade engi, has pet to agro npcs for easy cleaving

(...)

Pretty much same opinion but not sure if i would not throw soulbeast towards 2nd and tie with holo.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

6 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Good dueling SB will always win with a boonbeast build, but for camp flipping any strong class does it well. 

Playing a thief means you love running away and not killing any actual good player. 

That's not true, yeah on a duelist build like boonbeast etc u are way more effective at killing things but a good thief can still kill good players by doing what their good at, porting in when that good player is almost dead from a already ongoing engagement and finishing them off 😀

[bigo.9037]

33 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Pretty much same opinion but not sure if i would not throw soulbeast towards 2nd and tie with holo.

You might be right, but I haven’t fought a holo in wvw on my level in quite a while so.. at high tier play the difference is very small in 1v1, and holo has more aoe and group utility than a boonbeast does, and you need to play boonbeast to be comparable to holo in 1v1, but then you suffer in dmg and cleaving camps. That’s why I still think it’s higher tier even tho they are probably close to 50/50 in 1v1.. scrapper wins most of the time, but oddly can lose to things like heralds which soulbeast has an easy time with. But nades being what they are means it’s solid #2. 

[Shroud.2307]

I think opinions on this will be pretty divided depending on what people perceive to be the hardest thing to kill or the thing they hate fighting most.

My list would be like this,

1. Ranger
2. Thief
3. Revenant
4. Engineer
5. Mesmer

First I want to establish the difference between skill floor and skill ceiling.
A skill floor is the minimum requirement to be effective with a given class or build, and a skill ceiling is the maximum you can achieve when you've "mastered" it.

Ranger has the most versatility and the most low skill floor builds, with most of them being effective enough to compete with builds that are more demanding. "Boonbeast" for example is a low skill floor build with high potential when played well. 
Although the class as a whole has a relatively high skill ceiling, most of the builds that are more difficult to play are significantly less rewarding.

Thief could arguably be placed in position 1, but I put it in position 2 for a few reasons;
It is extremely dependent on having field control and mobility to win, it becomes dramatically weaker the larger the scale of the fight, and most of the low skill floor builds are terrible, meaning the barrier to entry is pretty high. 
Although I personally feel that Thief is one of, if not the only classes with a nearly infinite skill ceiling, meaning you can always get better with it - realistically only a very small fraction of players will ever get that good. The vast majority will struggle against even the lowest skill floor builds if they can't abuse LOS or mobility - and smart players will use that to their advantage. 
To put it simply, an exceptionally good Thief should be able to beat anything, but realistically there are too many things that neuter their potential unless the person playing it is one of that tiny percentage.

Revenant is another similar to Thief in that it has an extremely high skill ceiling, but also has more than a few effective low skill floor builds. For example, Shortbow Rene doesn't have a lot of losing match ups and is strong enough to deal with builds that are more demanding assuming it's played well.
Revenant also has the virtue of scaling well with groups in that it provides a lot of defensive and offensive support, and the weakness of poor sustain that many of its builds have becomes less significant with allies to fall back on.

Engineer is in a similar position to Ranger. It has a lot of low skill floor builds, but unlike Ranger fewer of them are competitively effective. Most of the more difficult builds are the ones that have higher versatility, but with the current state of Engineer's balance, the lowest skill floor builds are the better ones just because they're so significantly more forgiving. 
Eg. A Grenade Kit Scrapper is extremely low skill floor, but it also gets countered very hard. Where as a core build might be able to handle a wider range of builds, the reward potential just isn't there for the effort needed. 

And for Mesmer, I don't play the class, period. I cannot give experienced thoughts from the perspective of a Mesmer player, but I can say that I know it has a high skill ceiling, is versatile and provides utility in small - medium scale fights (and is great for commanding if you go full support), but is food for most Thief builds even if played well.

[bigo.9037]

37 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

I think opinions on this will be pretty divided depending on what people perceive to be the hardest thing to kill or the thing they hate fighting most.

My list would be like this,

1. Ranger
2. Thief
3. Revenant
4. Engineer
5. Mesmer

First I want to establish the difference between skill floor and skill ceiling.
A skill floor is the minimum requirement to be effective with a given class or build, and a skill ceiling is the maximum you can achieve when you've "mastered" it.

Ranger has the most versatility and the most low skill floor builds, with most of them being effective enough to compete with builds that are more demanding. "Boonbeast" for example is a low skill floor build with high potential when played well. 
Although the class as a whole has a relatively high skill ceiling, most of the builds that are more difficult to play are significantly less rewarding.

Thief could arguably be placed in position 1, but I put it in position 2 for a few reasons;
It is extremely dependent on having field control and mobility to win, it becomes dramatically weaker the larger the scale of the fight, and most of the low skill floor builds are terrible, meaning the barrier to entry is pretty high. 
Although I personally feel that Thief is one of, if not the only classes with a nearly infinite skill ceiling, meaning you can always get better with it - realistically only a very small fraction of players will ever get that good. The vast majority will struggle against even the lowest skill floor builds if they can't abuse LOS or mobility - and smart players will use that to their advantage. 
To put it simply, an exceptionally good Thief should be able to beat anything, but realistically there are too many things that neuter their potential unless the person playing it is one of that tiny percentage.

Revenant is another similar to Thief in that it has an extremely high skill ceiling, but also has more than a few effective low skill floor builds. For example, Shortbow Rene doesn't have a lot of losing match ups and is strong enough to deal with builds that are more demanding assuming it's played well.
Revenant also has the virtue of scaling well with groups in that it provides a lot of defensive and offensive support, and the weakness of poor sustain that many of its builds have becomes less significant with allies to fall back on.

Engineer is in a similar position to Ranger. It has a lot of low skill floor builds, but unlike Ranger fewer of them are competitively effective. Most of the more difficult builds are the ones that have higher versatility, but with the current state of Engineer's balance, the lowest skill floor builds are the better ones just because they're so significantly more forgiving. 
Eg. A Grenade Kit Scrapper is extremely low skill floor, but it also gets countered very hard. Where as a core build might be able to handle a wider range of builds, the reward potential just isn't there for the effort needed. 

And for Mesmer, I don't play the class, period. I cannot give experienced thoughts from the perspective of a Mesmer player, but I can say that I know it has a high skill ceiling, is versatile and provides utility in small - medium scale fights (and is great for commanding if you go full support), but is food for most Thief builds even if played well.

Holo has very high skill ceiling also. 
 

Shadow arts daredevil with durability runes is actually incredibly easy to play.. you hardly ever die. Not the best dmg but because of steal and interrupts you can prevent sustain builds from healing back up and that’s why they’re able to beat everything 1v1, not to mention stealth.

 

a group of thieves will absolutely DEMOLISH a group of rangers. Ranger can get focused incredibly easily in a small group fight especially by 1-2 thieves, and because ranger has limited mobility other than stealth here and there, after thieves take away your stab, the rest of the classes have an easy time focusing a ranger also. 
 I find it crazy you don’t consider holo or scrapper as a top 5 contender. 
 

but yea overall agree on skill floor vs skill ceiling. Some specs have floors that are way too high. Imo boonbeast needs significant nerfs. I don’t use that setup 99% of the time, but on my skirmish dmg build i have a hard time dealing with mediocre players running boonbeast and often have to swap to mirror them to beat them (it gets easy at that point but it still takes forever). 
 

i genuinely think high skill floors is one of gw2s main problems when it comes to balance. Much of this boils down to boons. It’s such a crutch.

[Arheundel.6451]

I just hate this type of threads...it will end up like every other similar thread.... it always boils down to the same mentality : "My build is skilled and your class/build takes no skill and should be nerfed"

Edited July 27, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[bigo.9037]

1 minute ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I just hate this type of threads...it will end up like every other similar thread, filled to the brim with overly biased opinions from people wishing to destroy anything but the spec/class they play and it always boils down to the same mentality : "My build is skilled and your class/build takes no skill and should be nerfed"

Who’s being biased here? And biased against what?

[Aeolus.3615]

6 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I just hate this type of threads...it will end up like every other similar thread.... it always boils down to the same mentality : "My build is skilled and your class/build takes no skill and should be nerfed"

 

Feels like more people are pointing out rock paper scisor wel lmore or so

 

There are defenitly best classes and builds for certain roles duelist teams that m8 have some advantage when encountering some players defending camps or that respondo to.

 

Theres even a soulbeast(must be norn) that hit on misntrels with protection  arround 10-15k... if is skilled not me to say it, but defenitly soulbeast is one of the top 3 more efectiva classes to play for roamers and people that focus on small scale.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Arheundel.6451]

6 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

Who’s being biased here? And biased against what?

From the OP there is already bias! I just hate that this community recognize as "skilled" only what they identify with and everything else is deemed "less skilled" and should be nerfed. This is what I have mentioned in my other thread about the wrong mentality of this playerbase , I win duels on a core ele, is the spec now the best roaming spec? I think not, when it comes to duels/roaming I only experience good and bad players...who they die regardless of what they play.

 

The nerf mentality starts when people refuse to recognize the opponent skill level, this creates a vicious cycle of nerfs/buffs that will only damage the whole game in the end, by killing build diversity and fun factor

 

There is low and high skill floor gameplay on every class and players should be free to play whichever way they want, when you nerf A...B will rise and then you nerf B...but C appears and when you reach and nerf Z...then A will rise again

Edited July 27, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Zyreva.1078]

3 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

1: thief (dd or de) best duelist, best mobility but not I’m not sure how fast they can actually kill the npcs. 

 

2: holo or scrapper, very versatile, good mobility, only wins out vs soulbeast cus of nades tbh. Scrapper has reflects for npcs so cleaving camp is ez and fast. 

 

3: soulbeast good mobility, best single target dmg but not as much aoe dmg as nade engi, has pet to agro npcs for easy cleaving

 

4: probably warrior, reve or mesmer, maybe weaver but idk. War has good mobility, good sustain and aoe, rev has good mobility and probably higher dmg than war but less cc, mesmer has 2nd best mobility in game but power is not great, relies on condi stats which have low dmg on camp npcs.

 

5: everything except necro is a tie from here

I'd put DH and weaver/tempest above warrior, otherwise i'm inclined to agree.

[bigo.9037]

19 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

From the OP there is already bias! I just hate that this community recognize as "skilled" only what they identify with and everything else is deemed "less skilled" and should be nerfed. This is what I have mentioned in my other thread about the wrong mentality of this playerbase , I win duels on a core ele, is the spec now the best roaming spec? I think not, when it comes to duels/roaming I only experience good and bad players...who they die regardless of what they play.

 

The nerf mentality starts when people refuse to recognize the opponent skill level, this creates a vicious cycle of nerfs/buffs that will only damage the whole game in the end, by killing build diversity and fun factor

 

There is low and high skill floor gameplay on every class and players should be free to play whichever way they want, when you nerf A...B will rise and then you nerf B...but C appears and when you reach and nerf Z...then A will rise again

OP was just listing some regular roaming specs, I don’t think that’s biased. This thread seems very reasonable to me. 
 

but yes, you are correct. Skill is big factor, but I still don’t find it enjoyable that I have a very very hard time dealing with mediocre boonbeast players on my regular build that I play 99% of the time simply because boonbeast carries players so far with mediocre skill. How do I know they are mediocre? Cus when I swap templates to mirror their build, suddenly they are very easy to kill or outrotate (since boonbeast v boonbeast suffers from stalling). It’s very often I encounter a boonbeast who gives me trouble, then i swap build and they can’t figure out what to do and play defensively the entire time because their rotation is much worse than mine. 
 

TLDR: Skill is very important but build wars 2 is also VERY real and I think high skill floor builds need to be addressed, but other than that play whatever you think is fun

[Shroud.2307]

3 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

Holo has very high skill ceiling also. 

I don't disagree, although I now realize I didn't say it does. Engi in general has one of the higher skill ceilings, but personally I feel core has the highest of its 3 specs. I definitely think Scrapper and Holo are objectively better than core (who doesn't), but I also think core has the highest potential for outplays. Holo and Scrapper have more definitive specialties, where as core can do a little bit of everything. 
That doesn't mean I think it's better nor that it can beat anything though, just that you'd be surprised at how dangerous a good one can be. I can think of a few that are, and I prefer to play core myself and know how much more freedom I feel I have with it compared to the elites (even if it's still in need of some serious buffs and rework).

 

3 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

 I find it crazy you don’t consider holo or scrapper as a top 5 contender.

I did, I placed it at rank 4. I named each as the core specs for clarity, not necessarily because the core classes are what are most effective. Like, there's a big difference between Engineer and Holo as I'd said above. The list would be a lot longer if I were separating them based on elite specs, and I'd have put Holo and Scrapper a lot higher than Engineer if I did.

So I mostly agree with you, yes.
Prot Holo is probably the only of Engi's current builds that's both low skill floor and high potential though. Grenade Kit Scrapper and Grenade Kit Holo are both great, but like I'd said, they also get countered very hard. The Scrapper version is extremely weak to Condi and the Holo version is extremely weak to CC and burst Condi. Nade Scrapper can also only sustain itself if it can keep hitting you. If you really want to cheese one with a Condi build just stack a few on them then hard kite and they won't be able to get any Barrier to absorb it. Rinse and repeat and they die real quick, because typically they have 0 cleanse.
 

3 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

i genuinely think high skill floors is one of gw2s main problems when it comes to balance. Much of this boils down to boons. It’s such a crutch.

Agree 100%. 
I strongly prefer to play high risk and/or bad builds because I feel my skill is more impactful and it's more obvious when I make mistakes. I generally don't enjoy builds that are forgiving, although being as mediocre as I am it would benefit me a lot to play stuff that's easier, lol.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Shroud.2307

[bigo.9037]

31 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

I don't disagree, although I now realize I didn't say it does. Engi in general has one of the higher skill ceilings, but personally I feel core has the highest of its 3 specs. I definitely think Scrapper and Holo are objectively better than core (who doesn't), but I also think core has the highest potential for outplays. Holo and Scrapper have more definitive specialties, where as core can do a little bit of everything. 
That doesn't mean I think it's better nor that it can beat anything though, just that you'd be surprised at how dangerous a good one can be. I can think of a few that are, and I prefer to play core myself and know how much more freedom I feel I have with it compared to the elites (even if it's still in need of some serious buffs and rework).

 

I did, I placed it at rank 4. I named each as the core specs for clarity, not necessarily because the core classes are what are most effective. Like, there's a big difference between Engineer and Holo as I'd said above. The list would be a lot longer if I were separating them based on elite specs, and I'd have put Holo and Scrapper a lot higher than Engineer if I did.

So I mostly agree with you, yes.
Prot Holo is probably the only of Engi's current builds that's both low skill floor and high potential though. Grenade Kit Scrapper and Grenade Kit Holo are both great, but like I'd said, they also get countered very hard. The Scrapper version is extremely weak to Condi and the Holo version is extremely weak to CC and burst Condi. Nade Scrapper can also only sustain itself if it can keep hitting you. If you really want to cheese one with a Condi build just stack a few on them then hard kite and they won't be able to get any Barrier to absorb it. Rinse and repeat and they die real quick, because typically they have 0 cleanse.
 

Agree 100%. 
I strongly prefer to play high risk and/or bad builds because I feel my skill is more impactful and it's more obvious when I make mistakes. I generally don't enjoy builds that are forgiving, although being as mediocre as I am it would benefit me a lot to play stuff that's easier, lol.

Holy kitten, sorry for being so blind lol. 
but a proper built nade holo has enough boons and stab to avoid getting caught off guard from CC to consider that an issue imo, other than that I agree with everything.

[XenesisII.1540]

We're ranking classes for flipping camps?

😑

 

[Sviel.7493]

When defending a camp, the scariest thing for me to see is a necro.

I'll kill them, sure, but I can't hold the ring so I'm going to lose the camp anyway.