Do you think other Mesmer Specs. should change to be less clone centric like the new EoD Spec.?

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

2 hours ago, Daishi.6027 said:

Defensively they need to functionally fool opponents and not in a way that can be foiled easily by AoE or by running behind a wall or kiting.

They need to reflect your HP pool at creation.
They either need to have ALL your currently active buffs and "cannot mount" and crap. OR It needs to be a feature of mesmer and their illusions that buffs are not displayed to anyone but allies.
Clone attack speed needs to match the player, fooling an opponent shouldn't constitute losing DPS and allowing for players to regain cooldowns while we match our auto attacks with the illusions.

If Illusions and searching for players is not a core mechanic to the class, then we are essentially a thief with one or two long cooldowns for stealth, with less evasion/blocks/etc, and less mobility.

 

This. All of this.

 

Clones are almost single-handedly the reason why I picked mesmer as my first class all those years. The whole gameplay of confusing and deceiving your enemies with endless mirror images, leaving them guessing who the real one is, is so on-point for an illusionist class it's almost perfect, removing it altogether would ruin the class for me.

Which is why I never liked that the game emphasizes so much on shatters, it basically reduces your clones to ammo instead of tools of deception.

 

The most unfortunate part is that this deception game actually was a thing in pvp some time ago, but aoe skills became so abundant it makes no different if you can find the real mesmer among the clones, you can just hit everyone at once.

 

Still though, if anet implemented these changes and made clones tanky enough to survive the endless aoes, I'd be much happier with the class.

[Tseison.4659]

2 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

The reason why they did not do this is because if you look at gw1 things were still at a casting style gameplay rather then near instant gameplay in gw2, hex etc would be far too powerful being instant but far too weak if they were casted. That is why the introduced them into conditions like torment or confusion, originally confusion was suppose to be a mesmer only condition but know ANET promising anything that is class exclusive will eventually be brought to every class.

 

Confusion - Mesmer - perplexity runes - everyone accessed it

Torment - Necro 

Alacrity - Chrono - Rev now being able to surpass uptime - Mirage that has no business to do with alacrity now is able to pump it better.

 

 

 

Hexes translated into Guild Wars 2 would essentially be a reverse barrier but anyways, I still think clones and illusions should've been an elite spec of their own.

[Jokubas.4265]

3 hours ago, Tseison.4659 said:

This should’ve been done a long time ago. In my opinion, clones, illusions etc… should’ve been an elite spec and the actually Mesmer profession should’ve been hex-like conditions, denial and control focused. At the end of the day, what’s done is done and it doesn’t seem clones/illusions will be replaced or removed from previous elite specs.

In theory, I think the illusions were supposed to represent those things. There's another thread about concept art of a nightmarish illusion tormenting someone. The problem is, yeah, they've never actually fulfilled that. The illusions shouldn't be able to be countered directly. They shouldn't have to physically run to a target and be susceptible to being stopped along the way because they're already supposed to be in that opponent's mind. Giving illusions a visual representation is fine and gives the profession a unique feel, but the problem is they're not really illusions, they're just minions. Minions with a physical presence and physical vulnerabilities.

  

2 hours ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

Clones are almost single-handedly the reason why I picked mesmer as my first class all those years. The whole gameplay of confusing and deceiving your enemies with endless mirror images, leaving them guessing who the real one is, is so on-point for an illusionist class it's almost perfect, removing it altogether would ruin the class for me.

Which is why I never liked that the game emphasizes so much on shatters, it basically reduces your clones to ammo instead of tools of deception.

I like the sound of Virtuoso for me personally, but I still really hope that Virtuoso committing so directly to the ammo theme means the rest of Mesmer can finally take a good, hard look at its basic premise.

 

I said before that I want the rest of the profession to be more clone focused, but I don't mean that every spec has to be about clones. I just want to see the profession be divorced from the Shatters and let that change cascade. All of these ideas should be able to be Mesmer variants.

Let the basic Mesmer be illusion-based, or maybe Mirage, I don't care. But make it where it revolves around the illusions themselves, not sacrificing them. The F skills could be illusion commands or a way to swap between illusions on the fly. Play up the fantasy of confusing enemies with mirror images.

 

Let another spec bring back the torment, let them conjure a real nightmare. Monstrous images that are attached to the enemy instead of the caster.

[johnnyg.3186]

On 7/29/2021 at 9:18 AM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Just no...as much as I would like the clones way pre expanc days or a rework it isn't going to happen. Fact that the new e-spec is going to remove clones is a indication that they want to stray away from AI clone gameplay. This is disappointing because I don't know how many people remember or watched this video.

 

 

How can anyone forget this vid. My Mesmer is my main, She's my witch and I want my clones to matter, threaten and beguile players while as a coven we kill our enemies.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

2 hours ago, Jokubas.4265 said:

I like the sound of Virtuoso for me personally, but I still really hope that Virtuoso committing so directly to the ammo theme means the rest of Mesmer can finally take a good, hard look at its basic premise.

 

I said before that I want the rest of the profession to be more clone focused, but I don't mean that every spec has to be about clones. I just want to see the profession be divorced from the Shatters and let that change cascade. All of these ideas should be able to be Mesmer variants.

Let the basic Mesmer be illusion-based, or maybe Mirage, I don't care. But make it where it revolves around the illusions themselves, not sacrificing them. The F skills could be illusion commands or a way to swap between illusions on the fly. Play up the fantasy of confusing enemies with mirror images.

 

Let another spec bring back the torment, let them conjure a real nightmare. Monstrous images that are attached to the enemy instead of the caster.

 

When I said "remove clones altogether" I meant from the whole class, including every espec, as a lot of people have wanted for quite some time.

I am very glad that virtuoso is clone-free, not least because it's finally something that differs more from the base class, but also because people who don't like clones now have something to play, and maybe this will give more freedom to work clones over in the other specs and core.

 

I'd be lying if I wasn't worried tho, I don't exactly trust Anet when it comes to mesmer, and there's still a chance this is their experiment in removing clones altogether, like how they reworked gyros and spirit weapons for scrapper and guardian.

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 hours ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

 

When I said "remove clones altogether" I meant from the whole class, including every espec, as a lot of people have wanted for quite some time.

I am very glad that virtuoso is clone-free, not least because it's finally something that differs more from the base class, but also because people who don't like clones now have something to play, and maybe this will give more freedom to work clones over in the other specs and core.

 

I'd be lying if I wasn't worried tho, I don't exactly trust Anet when it comes to mesmer, and there's still a chance this is their experiment in removing clones altogether, like how they reworked gyros and spirit weapons for scrapper and guardian.

This is not going to happen as mirage heavily relies on clones and reworking mirage as a whole including mirage cloak to make it so that it become cloneless is not going to happen, just look at how they decide to nerf mirage, instead of going to the source of the problem they just remove a dodge.

Knowing how ANET is bias towards mesmers over the years and I dont think I am the one who thinks this way 2 considering how they have worked mesmers over the years.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

6 hours ago, Tseison.4659 said:

Hexes translated into Guild Wars 2 would essentially be a reverse barrier but anyways, I still think clones and illusions should've been an elite spec of their own.

That would be Deep Wound. And it should have been on game for a long time.

You can mess around with some ideas on hexes, on top of mind, an hex that interrupts the next skill and deals damage (kind of like guilt/mistrust/wandering eye from gw1), one that negates endurance (akin to exhaust) with each skill performed.

[Dastion.3106]

I’ve always wanted a Mesmer pet spec where you create a permanent illusion that acts sort of like a Ranger pet.  Your F abilities become pet control abilities, clone abilities act as a combo point builder, and phantasm abilities become pet commands with variable effects based on the built up illusionary power from clone abilities. 

[Axl.8924]

On 7/29/2021 at 2:47 AM, SkinnyT.5382 said:

Once upon a time, in a beta a long long time ago, Mesmer's clones had real significance. However, over the years they just became things that you create just to get rid of. Mere balloons, floating on the battle field waiting to be popped. And as of right now, unless you are playing SPvP and/or a Mirage, there's absolutely no reason to keep them alive.

With the release of the new Virtuoso Elite Spec, there is an opportunity to rethink how Mesmers work. Now don't get me wrong. I think clones should still exist as  part of the Mesmer profession. After all it's what make the Mesmer profession unique in GW2. The fact that the Virtuoso gets rid of them completely is kind of a down side. What I'm thinking about is limiting clones, and making them more meaningful.

For this to work, the charging system would have to replace shatters. Like the Virtuoso, every time you create some sort of illusion you would get a charge to later spend on F1-F4 skills. What those F Skills do, would depend on the Elite Specs you have (or a lack there of). Some of them could work like shatters, others could be clone creating skills, but that could be a topic all on it's own.

 

Here's are some skill examples of  what I think clone skills could be.

 

-Staff 2 would function as is, teleporting you back and creating a clone at your original location. However this clone would have more hp and/or armor, and would cast taunt  on enemies around it. This would make the skill a truly disengaging skill, and that clone would have much more impact in a fight.

-Decoy would work similarly, except since you again stealth, the clone would just for example have the hp/armor boost. Making it more of an annoying dummy for the enemies (as it would follow them round).

-Signet of Humility could be reworked all together, so instead of transforming your foe into a moa, it could still stun them, but then create say 2 clones of yourself that would work similar to Thieves Guild and Warband Support skills, except it would be 2 doppelgangers of yourself which work outside the rule of the other clones.

 

Clones would also not be tied to enemies, so instead of having them die once the enemy dies, they would stay alive (unless destroyed) till you are out of combat. There also would have a limit of probably 3 as to not have an army of yourself walking around, as it is right now.

 

 

I just think that there is so much more that can be done with Mesmers and  illusions, and yet we are stuck creating and exploding clones of ourselves as our main mechanic. It gets tiresome sometimes, specially since we already have less skills compared other classes.

 

Didn't chrono focus before on clones that you didn't pop at one time or another? or am i miseremembering?

[Rainbow Dragon.7268]

 in response to thread title No i do not think mesmer should change to be less clone/phantasm centric that's literally the reason i play the class. if they   remove these then i have 0 reason to play guild wars 2 anymore, this is the only unique class that drew me to play in the first place no other game has a class like it that i have played. the only change i would like to see is staff 3 i don't think the vuln stacks are needed and personally would like to see it do some kind of condi  instead [burning please] but that's just my opinion.

[Xaylin.1860]

16 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Elusive mind was free stunbreaks, there is a difference between able to dodge while stunned vs breaking stun, this was huge with mirage cloak sword 1 as a escape card. This wasn't just for power builds as it was super op with condi builds as well, free infinite stunbreaks basically means u can never lock down a mirage that is the real reason why mirage was soo broken at released.

How does this not underline my point? I said it was relevant for PvP (including dueling/roaming). But irrelevant for basically everything else. I didn't say anything about power or condi builds.

[SkinnyT.5382]

16 hours ago, Tseison.4659 said:

Hexes translated into Guild Wars 2 would essentially be a reverse barrier but anyways, I still think clones and illusions should've been an elite spec of their own.

I think the problem with this is if you introduce hexes, then you have to introduce a way to remove them too. Conditions was a general way to gather all degen into basically 1 category. GW1 had a huge amount of skills, and the devs use to say all the time that balancing was a nightmare because of it. Specially since you could mix skills between professions too. So they tried streamlining gw2 as much as they could. I think hexes could be implemented in the same way that the Karka Hatchllings attaches to a player (and you need to dodge to remove it). Even then I see several issues implementing this, specially in pve.

 

 

7 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

Didn't chrono focus before on clones that you didn't pop at one time or another? or am i miseremembering?

I honestly don't recall this ever being the case. I know alacrity management was much easier before, but you always had to shatter to gain it.

[Genesis.5169]

No because clone's is the only unique thing mesmer's have left.

 

Portal was butchered.

Alacrity is on tons of classes now.

Confuse is on tons of classes now.

 

Clone's should be our thing for all the specs to varying degrees, wells should summon phantasms that's how deep i think it should go we are masters of the mind not of time.

[JazzXman.7018]

just no! dont delete mesmer also from other older expansions

Edited August 3, 2021 by JazzXman.7018

[lockhart.6048]

On 7/29/2021 at 2:48 PM, Xaylin.1860 said:

I somewhat disagree.

 

Chrono does have it's issues and is indeed base+. But Mirage is a huge MESS. It might change the gameplay more than Chrono. But it is inconsistent and devalues the original class mechanic. Which makes even less sense in the context of ANet reworking how Illusions/Phantasms work to encourage people to Shatter. 

 

Not saying that Mirage is unplayable. But it most certainly isn't in a good spot. Conceptually it is beautiful. But imho it might be the biggest fail of all e-specs mechanicwise. Even worse than those that don't really have one like Scrapper. Because it got baseline Mesmer nerfed hard.

Mirage is a mess, I don't disagree. However, they really just need a few tweaks here and there. Mirage mirrors definitely need a big facelift. It's whole shpiel (in PvP) is completely befuddling opponents, and it slightly does that thanks to all the de-targeting, Jaunt, ambush attacks, increased mobility etc... And also in PvP they Mirages have the great option of going power shatter spike or condi. 

In PvE, they kind of go against the core mechanic of shattering in favor of IH DPSing, but oh well.  

 

Some of Mirage's utility skills are kind of outplayed [pvp wise] by core mesmer utilities (same problem for chronomancer.) A lot of them are actually decent ideas, but are kind of blockaded by something minor, like the long cast time of Mirage Advance and extreme randomness of Illusionary Ambush. 

 

I see nothing wrong with Mirage Cloak. It really takes some getting used to and manipulating movement. If used correctly, it's very very powerful. If used poorly (like s-keying in mirage cloak to leave damage circles lol) it will be even worse than a dodge, but well git gud to be honest. It becomes even more powerful because it activates ambush skills on demand, some of which are very strong.

[SkinnyT.5382]

On 7/31/2021 at 2:58 PM, Genesis.5169 said:

No because clone's is the only unique thing mesmer's have left...

 Right but if that's the only unique thing about Mesmers, don't you think we have a bigger problem than the clones?

 

The reason I mentioned clones in specific is because  when you look at it, they really are not that unique. Both Ele and Necro also have the ability to create companions to follow them around. They don't look like the player, that's true, but they also live longer (some indefinitely), and they even have unique skills attached to them. The necro even has an "exploding upon death" variant to their creations as well. Clones on the other hand have little to no health, do little to no damage, and die immediately when the enemy they are attached to dies or when you use a shatter skill. At it's core, clones are merely ammo/charges with a physical map placement and  a very fast expiration period.

 

Ele's theme is elements, necro's theme is death, and the Mesmers' is illusion. Out of the 3 classes, the Memer's theme is the most flexible, and has biggest room for interpretation. Yet, we are bound to the idea of clones and their shattering effects which aren't really different between the elite specs. Elite Specs. should open the player to a different play style, yet because of the Mesmer's mechanic being so reliant on clones our Elite Specs do little more than change our utility skills, and weapon availability.

 

What awesome things could the Mesmer do, if the focus of our core mechanic as creating all different sorts of illusions (as the Virtuoso creates daggers), instead of creating clones? As I said in my op, I don't think clones should completely go away, in fact I think they work  specially well with Mirage. However core Mesmer, and Chronomancers would greatly benefit by being separated from clones. This would open the doors to all sorts great and unique skills.

[necromaniac.7629]

no

[Genesis.5169]

11 hours ago, SkinnyT.5382 said:

 Right but if that's the only unique thing about Mesmers, don't you think we have a bigger problem than the clones?

 

The reason I mentioned clones in specific is because  when you look at it, they really are not that unique. Both Ele and Necro also have the ability to create companions to follow them around. They don't look like the player, that's true, but they also live longer (some indefinitely), and they even have unique skills attached to them. The necro even has an "exploding upon death" variant to their creations as well. Clones on the other hand have little to no health, do little to no damage, and die immediately when the enemy they are attached to dies or when you use a shatter skill. At it's core, clones are merely ammo/charges with a physical map placement and  a very fast expiration period.

 

Ele's theme is elements, necro's theme is death, and the Mesmers' is illusion. Out of the 3 classes, the Memer's theme is the most flexible, and has biggest room for interpretation. Yet, we are bound to the idea of clones and their shattering effects which aren't really different between the elite specs. Elite Specs. should open the player to a different play style, yet because of the Mesmer's mechanic being so reliant on clones our Elite Specs do little more than change our utility skills, and weapon availability.

 

What awesome things could the Mesmer do, if the focus of our core mechanic as creating all different sorts of illusions (as the Virtuoso creates daggers), instead of creating clones? As I said in my op, I don't think clones should completely go away, in fact I think they work  specially well with Mirage. However core Mesmer, and Chronomancers would greatly benefit by being separated from clones. This would open the doors to all sorts great and unique skills.

 

No.

I 100% disagree with you.

I've been playing mesmers for 8 years and if they got rid of clones i'd quit the class and the game.

Jesus christ anet please don't listen to this guy.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

No, thank you.

[SkinnyT.5382]

On 8/2/2021 at 6:42 AM, Genesis.5169 said:

 

No.

I 100% disagree with you.

I've been playing mesmers for 8 years and if they got rid of clones i'd quit the class and the game.

Jesus christ anet please don't listen to this guy.

 

LMAO and I've been playing mesmer for 16 years since the OG Mesmer of Guild Wars: Prophecies. If clones are the only thing keeping you in the game then there's truly a bigger problem.

[Moradorin.6217]

On 7/28/2021 at 5:47 PM, SkinnyT.5382 said:

Once upon a time, in a beta a long long time ago, Mesmer's clones had real significance. However, over the years they just became things that you create just to get rid of. Mere balloons, floating on the battle field waiting to be popped. And as of right now, unless you are playing SPvP and/or a Mirage, there's absolutely no reason to keep them alive.

With the release of the new Virtuoso Elite Spec, there is an opportunity to rethink how Mesmers work. Now don't get me wrong. I think clones should still exist as  part of the Mesmer profession. After all it's what make the Mesmer profession unique in GW2. The fact that the Virtuoso gets rid of them completely is kind of a down side. What I'm thinking about is limiting clones, and making them more meaningful.

For this to work, the charging system would have to replace shatters. Like the Virtuoso, every time you create some sort of illusion you would get a charge to later spend on F1-F4 skills. What those F Skills do, would depend on the Elite Specs you have (or a lack there of). Some of them could work like shatters, others could be clone creating skills, but that could be a topic all on it's own.

 

Here's are some skill examples of  what I think clone skills could be.

 

-Staff 2 would function as is, teleporting you back and creating a clone at your original location. However this clone would have more hp and/or armor, and would cast taunt  on enemies around it. This would make the skill a truly disengaging skill, and that clone would have much more impact in a fight.

-Decoy would work similarly, except since you again stealth, the clone would just for example have the hp/armor boost. Making it more of an annoying dummy for the enemies (as it would follow them round).

-Signet of Humility could be reworked all together, so instead of transforming your foe into a moa, it could still stun them, but then create say 2 clones of yourself that would work similar to Thieves Guild and Warband Support skills, except it would be 2 doppelgangers of yourself which work outside the rule of the other clones.

 

Clones would also not be tied to enemies, so instead of having them die once the enemy dies, they would stay alive (unless destroyed) till you are out of combat. There also would have a limit of probably 3 as to not have an army of yourself walking around, as it is right now.

 

 

I just think that there is so much more that can be done with Mesmers and  illusions, and yet we are stuck creating and exploding clones of ourselves as our main mechanic. It gets tiresome sometimes, specially since we already have less skills compared other classes.

Just no. Even if I liked the suggestions (some sound neat) I would still say no. I feel like it would break too many fundamental rules of game design and would mess with too many players. What I mean is, You propose to totally change Gw2 Mesmer into another class at the core level. That means everyone who plays it has to relearn the class. For some that would be fine/welcomed but for many that would just put them off to the point some would quite the game, many would quit Mesmer and its all at the assumption it would be better. At best it would please part of the Mesmer base. It would for sure create a all new balance issues. I think it would waste countless dev. man hours on a thing that wouldn't make Mesmer more popular and may well alienate the player base, at least those who care about Mesmer.

[Obtena.7952]

On 7/28/2021 at 8:47 PM, SkinnyT.5382 said:

Once upon a time, in a beta a long long time ago, Mesmer's clones had real significance. However, over the years they just became things that you create just to get rid of.

That's a weird POV ... I always though that the idea that you 'got rid of' clones to get something WAS the real significance of the class. 

 

Anyways, any move towards more AI wouldn't be too welcome and I'm sure changes to clones to have them stick around or influences by other players, like 'pets' would cause too much class theme overlap with Ranger. I'm doubtful for those reasons mesmer would get a rework. 

[Xion.5694]

This cursed ammo mechanic should be removed from the game. Warlocks in WoW had the same problem with Soulstones and Blizz got rid of it - GW2 shall too. I'm happy with new spec having the clean ammo mechanic, that cant be killed, blinded, dodged, aoeded. 

Clones as a whole shall be at least redesigned in a fashion that could not be killed, shall not move, or do anything other than mimic attacks (without damage).

[Stavros.8249]

I would like the next elite specialization would be all around clones. Like skills that have more damage with the number of clones u have out. Or traits that give more stat by the active clones. And clones with a trait maybe do power damage. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

17 hours ago, SkinnyT.5382 said:

 

LMAO and I've been playing mesmer for 16 years since the OG Mesmer of Guild Wars: Prophecies. If clones are the only thing keeping you in the game then there's truly a bigger problem.

Irrelevant, GW1 Mesmer is something entirely different then GW2 even the game itself is different. I don't know why GW1 vets love to compare cats and dogs.

For a fast pace game and I've said it will have no place for actual casting in GW2.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780