Large world, tiny people - Map Design flaw

[Tazzuki.2648]

Hello! Before I get into my concern.. I’d like to mention I have been an experienced artist for 10+ years, graduated and everything! I am keeping in mind that there’s loads of different artist in the world but I have been interested in all forms of art and I really don’t want to elaborate on myself too much. This is mainly to add context entice other artists to perhaps talk who also have some knowledge which I’m about to talk about.

 
I’ve been a player for eight years and love the game! But for Guildwars and MOST mmos I am absolutely tired of some major design flaws of map designs.

 (Remember this is about what I’m personally tired about, you can eat the same soup and be happy I don’t care.)

So let’s get into it! 
PLAYER SCALE PERSPECTIVE

 A lot of people are confused of what im trying to say since im not really a writer. this is mostly about ‘players scale perspective’. something is messing up my perspective of size which could be ANYTHING with the map even to just textures on the floor. yes this is a fantasy game but im sure anet did not intend for characters to feel like ants 24/7 plus added realism makes a fantasy more epic & some design is overused which is why i mentioned archways later on 😃 like gothic architecture, churches normally have one grand door and the rest are small or loads of small windows and not enough big ones.

 please remember this post is light hearted and supposed to be fun to talk about *end of edit*

 

(most has been talked about here but ill leave it in)

Divinity’s Reach. Why is there so many giant archways? And why would an archway be ten times bigger then a mount to reach a bank? Or a trade post?  Why does a bank look more of like a horse stable then a bank… basically what I’m trying to say is.. the map design dose not sell or convince me that I’m in a world that cares about the reasoning for the architecture and why (as example) the divinity’s reach civilians would need giant archways (as example) 

 

This dives deeper then just some measly archways however.. as characters at the maximum height still look incredibly tiny. I’m sure 90% of DR isn’t used much because people don’t really need to go to that area unless they are completing stories or role playing.

 

lets talk about the issues of clipping/cameras! we do have a first person perspective option so if we did have smaller spaces people could switch to first person if they wished to. Plenty of replies have made fair arguments that a lot of players would dislike the awkwardness of it all and I completely agree. So the solution is not to make things smaller but indeed something else. 

(by the way DR Is just an easy example but there are so many maps with the same issue)

 

Size is great as the lady’s would say.. 👀  (I am a lady FYI) but if the space isn’t needed and is too dramatic it just looks more of an eyesore then eye candy.  
 

thanks for reading 🐸

Edited August 19, 2021 by Tazzuki.2648

[kharmin.7683]

There is a lot of design impracticability in fantasy settings.  GW2 isn't the first.

[Tazzuki.2648]

Indeed! I mentioned in my post Guildwars isn’t the only mmo 😛 I probably should have elaborated on that. But I’m throwing my concern out here so that it raises awareness that I just wish there was more love into the design. 

[Maikimaik.1974]

4 minutes ago, Tazzuki.2648 said:

Indeed! I mentioned in my post Guildwars isn’t the only mmo 😛 I probably should have elaborated on that. But I’m throwing my concern out here so that it raises awareness that I just wish there was more love into the design. 

 

You have to consider that sometimes practicality and technical limitations are more important than realism. 

For example, tiny archways and doors are horrible camera-wise.

 

Also, it's a fantasy game. I really don't care about realism, impressive and fantastical architecture is much nicer to look at.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Maikimaik.1974

[Tazzuki.2648]

Now the instant thought people would go into is ‘reducing size’ however I’m not asking to make the world smaller, just more practical looking as if it made sense while also in a fantasy setting. You raised a very important argument about camera angles but I believe there could be a solution if we seek one.

 

for you, you don’t have to care about what you’re playing but for people like me who absolutely LOVE designs in things and appreciate where a games going in terms of design entirely and evolving.. I’m sure the art devs might be interested

 

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Tazzuki.2648

[Tazzuki.2648]

Or anyone who plans to make their own games. 
 

Maybe when I have time I’ll edit more on why I’m making a topic.. tbh I just thought it’ll be fun to talk about! feel free to reply I’ll read your response later!

Edited August 18, 2021 by Tazzuki.2648

[Sobx.1758]

Check greek/roman/gothic architecture and you'll find that monumental buildings with "doorways way bigger than necessary" aren't just something that takes place in the games. You don't like it, but I guess many do.

 

....and as such, it is not "a design flaw". I've noticed a trend of some people trying to substitute "I don't like it" with "flawed/bad design". 😉 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[DeanBB.4268]

Well, you certainly don't want to see the enormous double doors into my work building. They look nice, and are well balanced so as to be easy to open compared to their size and weight (all wood and glass), but are wholly impractical. Plus 2 of the 4 have already been "out of service" and it has only been about 18 months since the remodel when they were installed.

 

But yeah, I'm not a fan of confined spaces in GW2 due to the camera. Plus, I can turn away from the bank teller, mount my griffon, and fly away!

[Blocki.4931]

Keep in mind the game isn't even to scale.

Many things are shrunk down, others are much bigger depending on the gameplay. The arches are probably real size, while the countless buildings and the majority of the city are shrunk down.

[DeanBB.4268]

Yes, scale. Consider that. You can run across the entire continent in mere minutes.

 

Stick with, "Size matters not."

[Randulf.7614]

As said above, a lot of it is for gameplay/camera reasons. 

 

It is also a good way to represent the magnificence of an urban area which is something that compliments the GW art style well. Divinity's Reach benefits greatly from utilising exaggerated architecture to over size it. Big after all, is beautiful

 

And if it is good enough for Minas Tirith, it is good enough for the Capital of Kryta!

Edited August 18, 2021 by Randulf.7614

[Andy.5981]

1 hour ago, Tazzuki.2648 said:

Hello! Before I get into my concern.. I’d like to mention I have been an experienced artist for 10+ years, graduated and everything. This is not to show-off but it’s important for the subject. 
I’ve been a player for eight years and love the game! But for Guildwars and most mmos I am absolutely tired of some major design flaws of map designs.

 

For example, divinity’s reach. Why is there so many giant archways? And why would an archway be ten times bigger then a mount to reach a bank? Or a trade post?  Why does a bank look more of like a horse stable then a bank… basically what I’m trying to say is.. the map design dose not sell or convince me that I’m in a world that cares about the reasoning for the architecture and why (as example) the divinity’s reach civilians would need giant archways (as example) 

 

This dives deeper then just some measly archways however.. as characters at the maximum hight still look incredibly tiny. I’m sure 90% of DR isn’t used much because people don’t really need to go to that area unless they are completing stories or role playing.

(by the way DR Is just an easy example but there are so many maps with the same issue)

 

Size is great as the lady’s would say.. 👀  (I am a lady FYI) but if the space isn’t needed and is too dramatic it just looks more of an eyesore then eye candy.  
 

thanks for reading 🐸

If you get the chance, come to my home Country, Wales. On average, we are shorter than most British people, however you will find that the Archways to our Castles are absolutely ginormous.

It is an expression of power.

If you have ever seen "This is Spinal Tap" you will also realise how laughable monuments (like Stonehenge) would be if they were three feet high.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Andy.5981

[Stalkingwolf.6035]

fun part. WoW has some realistic doorways and then added bigger mounts. now guess what happend.

[Teratus.2859]

I'm glad things are bigger than needed, I can only imagine how much of a clippy mess getting though some things would be after mounts and giant tonic were added XD

 

[phokus.8934]

They also use perspective to make things look farther away and larger or smaller than what they are.  You ever stand next to a window and you're a giant?

 

These are design principles that even Disney uses.

[Omega.6801]

One could argue that it's fantasy and therefor "don't think too much about it". But wouldn't serve the artists justice I guess, because, at least I hope so, some thought is put into every piece of work. In GW2 you could have reasoning in Lore, because there are far larger beings that semi-regularly interact with mere mortals, Gods are pretty big and maybe aribtrarily big, there are dragons and big beasts, who knows who walks through these doorways beside our characters.

 

But the better argument may lie in real world architecture. I'm not an expert on the matter, but important buildings(Catherdrals, Seats of Parliament, Prisons, Hospitals...) can come with oversized doorways(sometimes even with little, more reasonable sized doors built into them) or extremely high ceilings. This is often not a practical choice but a design choice to imbue an aura of awe for example or to show power. Sometimes these choices are made to show wealth or status as well. It's  the thought that "I might not need a 3m tall door, but I can afford to have one." or "we will build this hallway to feel imposing and threatening, so people know their place."

 

Maybe this thought will help you to accept these things.

 

Something that bothers me more, but is a more recent thing since mounts came to the game, is the forced perspective in DR. On launch, designers put tiny houses at the edge of the map that, when seen from the ground trickes your brain into thinking they're farther away. Now with mounts, you can go to these houses and see that not even an asura could fit through some of the doors. A better example you can find is the aerodrome where, to make the room look taller than it actual is, the airships get smaller and smaller the higher up they are.

Edited August 18, 2021 by lokh.2695

[Danikat.8537]

2 hours ago, Maikimaik.1974 said:

 

You have to consider that sometimes practicality and technical limitations are more important than realism. 

For example, tiny archways and doors are horrible camera-wise.

 

Also, it's a fantasy game. I really don't care about realism, impressive and fantastical architecture is much nicer to look at.

I'm pretty sure this is the reason - a lot of people have the camera above their character's head level, so if the doorways, arches etc. were just tall enough for the tallest characters the camera would either get stuck at head level (making it harder to see what's around you) or it would keep jumping around as the available space changes.

 

Considering one reason people do that is to avoid motion sickness I don't think it would be a good idea to force the camera into restrictive spaces just for the sake of having realistic architecture.

 

Especially since (as various people have mentioned) it's not that unrealistic. A lot of public spaces have incredibly high ceiling and wide walkways, doors etc. Shopping centers for example, there's one near where I used to live where all the shops are 1-2 floors but the walkways between them have 3-4 story ceilings. Mostly I think it's just to get a sense of space and openness even though you're inside, but it also gives them room to hang lots of massive Christmas decorations.

[Zephire.8049]

Sometimes scale needs to be changed in video games—especially MMO—for playability reasons like people said. In the books, it takes days to cross just part of Ascalon while in-game your character could traverse it in ~30 minutes before mounts. Divinity's Reach is supposed to be the last bastion of humanity in Tyria and be home to tens of thousands but the in-game map could only house a couple hundred. Where legions of charr are supposed to bunk in the Black Citadel is beyond me. Hoelbrak is the only norn city of note yet there's only a handful of houses. Asura are small but even then there's not enough living quarters in Rata Sum for them all. And I have no idea what's up with the Grove.

 

Open areas allow for better player movement, less interference with the camera, and are less likely to make players claustrophobic. If it comes down to being "realistic" or make players uncomfortable/literally unable to play the game, 9 times out of 10 the developer will fudge the environment design so players can enjoy it (and be more likely to spend money on the game).

 

Some other real life examples of grand architecture:

• The Forbidden City
• The Taj Mahal
• Notre-Dame
• The Colosseum

 

Humans like building things that are far bigger than they need to be, both to show that they can and because it replicates the outside but isn't subject to weather.

 

Also Tyria has magic so that helps with building things that are visually impressive but architectural nightmares to create.

[Ashen.2907]

Details or features are often exaggerated in order to ensure that they can be/are seen and noticed in a large scale environment such as this. I wouldn't mind more realism in any number of aspects of the game (weapon and armor skins in particular) but it isnt a flaw if it is serving a designed and intended purpose.

[LSD.4673]

Never a good sign of a community when any form of even remote criticism has to be prefaced with "i love the game and have played it for years!"...

[Tazzuki.2648]

Hey! Currently out for brithday things so I’ve been unable to reply to your messages but I’ve been enjoying reading them throughout my afternoon! So somethings I’ll mention first..

 

im from Europe (British) and trust me I absolutely love gothic architecture and giant Greek archways i see it all the time in real life such as churches. One thing I notice mostly is that large arches normally come limited and only when it really compliments the space. (Most Churches only have one large door for example)

 

what my point was that arches normally lead to important cultural places and I just feel it’s overused. Arches was only a small example of what I was trying to explain.

 

(also phone about to die I’ll be back soon! Bare with me 😉 haha) I’ll edit this more later

[Sobx.1758]

20 minutes ago, LSD.4673 said:

Never a good sign of a community when any form of even remote criticism has to be prefaced with "i love the game and have played it for years!"...

Just because someone decided to include that in their post, doesn't somehow mean it needed to be included, that's a weird thing to try and draw conclusions from.

[LSD.4673]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Just because someone decided to include that in their post, doesn't somehow mean it needed to be included, that's a weird thing to try and draw conclusions from.

Like you don't see it all the time...

[firedragon.8953]

As a norn, I don't see a problem.

[Danikat.8537]

47 minutes ago, LSD.4673 said:

Never a good sign of a community when any form of even remote criticism has to be prefaced with "i love the game and have played it for years!"...

By that logic every bit of "constructive criticism" and most of the complaints I've ever recieved in my working life have been a bad sign. Retail customers especially love to preface any complaint with "I've been shopping here for years, I must have spent hundreds" or "I'm one of your best customers" or something similar.

 

I'm not saying the OP doesn't mean it or is wrong to say it, I'm sure it's a sincere addition to the post, but it's also an extremely common format for trying to soften criticism or add extra weight to personal opinions and I don't think there's any need to read more into it than that.