Installed ArcDPS for the first time. It opened my eyes to how bad wvw balance is. - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Installed ArcDPS for the first time. It opened my eyes to how bad wvw balance is.

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  • avey.4201avey.4201 Member ✭✭✭

    balance is trash atm, but arc is a pve meter, top dps != top kills != win fight != contributing to your team
    pve meter wont teach anything about pvp

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2020

    Top deeps means nothing if you die in the first 5 seconds of the fight. It also doesn't mean anything if you lose. Also if you're just dpsing a keep lord that's also silly.

    However, assuming people are comparing oranges to oranges and running the same builds (eg comparing different scourges), it's a bit silly to attribute the discrepancies due to dpsing downed players. Maybe it's a sign people aren't running the right builds. There's of course many aspects to a fight.

    Also Bomb Kit engi is good...

  • Right now there is more build diversity in large scale WvW fights than ever before, so idk why you're complaining about balance now. Weavers and revs can easily out-DPS burn guards, and the fights have been very enjoyable -- this is coming from someone who plays support spellbreaker, dps spellbreaker, power rev, power scourge, support scrapper, and support firebrand.Even ranger has a place in the meta with the very strong immob build that people are running these days. The real balance issues are now in sPvP and small scale fights.

    The biggest problem facing WvW is the lack of population. They need to do something big to bring people back to the game.

  • SWI.4127SWI.4127 Member ✭✭✭

    People are disregarding DPS numbers way too much. No they don't tell the whole story, but chances are if someone is near the top of the DPS meter, then they are dropping their damage at the correct times. Otherwise they probably would have wasted their skills hitting aegis, fully buffed up enemies and doing very little. If damage is coordinated with corrupts and CC, they're going to be hitting people with stripped boons and usually doing a lot more damage by hitting multiple people at once. Are there some top DPSers with padded numbers? I'm sure it happens. Usually isn't not the case though assuming you have NPC and gadget damage turned off.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SWI.4127 said:
    People are disregarding DPS numbers way too much. No they don't tell the whole story, but chances are if someone is near the top of the DPS meter, then they are dropping their damage at the correct times.

    Exactly. A scourge isn't going to be doing much damage if the player is just placing wells on one or two guys when wells are off cooldown.

  • OscLin.7253OscLin.7253 Member ✭✭

    What kitten zerg were you in? Neither scourge nor burn guard should be top dps in a zerg.

  • nthmetal.9652nthmetal.9652 Member ✭✭✭

    @enkidu.5937 said:
    What it doesnt show is who generates downstates? E. g. Burn guard is good in cleaving that downies, but dependent on the enemy cleanse coverage, you can either down a bunch of ppl at once when they stand around a cata and dont pay attention, or you can be a deliverer for aegis :#

    What it also doesnt show is tactical damage. Burn guard and Necro spread their damage quite unspecificly, so if you want to down the SpB who is rushing in, or focus down FBs, free casters, or low HPs that retreat to the backline, you are better off with ranger or thief.

    What it also doesnt show is presure damage. I imagine this should not be put aside easily. In this one-push Meta, you want to trigger cooldowns on the big skills before or between the pushes. Otherwise the enemy will just use the necessary skills when they push. Spreading out unspecific AoE damage outside a coordinated bomb might not be enough to trigger those big skills, cause its just too thinned out among too many enemies. But what if you can focus one specific target and get it low HP or loaded with a condi bomb? The support classes in that subgroup have a problem then: waste big skills on that one single player, or lose that player and save the big skills for the push?

    While much of that is true, over the sum of a zerg, part of this line of thinking is irrelevant.
    Yes, AoE damage is spread unspecificly by a single guard or necro, but over the sum of a group, if a bomb is dropped, it is dropped all on the same group, dealing massive damage and conditions to the group.
    Where thieves and rangers each focus one target and down it, the guards and necros, when dropping a bomb don't only deal more damage. They also down more people. Only when you look at a single guard or necro, of if your AoE casters cannot coordinate their bombs does their damage not also equal downs.

    That said, there are professions, which are better in roaming and smallscale, and there are professions, which are better large scale. But if only really two professions take top DPS large scale, I'd still follow the reasoning of the OP that we do indeed have a balancing problem. Specific builds allowing for variance in playstyles across one professions should be a lot more relevant. I would love to see more and harder work on Anet's side to enable us the character we really want to play, in the situation we want to play them in.

    "and then we know that we have looked back through the ivory gates into that world of wonder which was ours before we were wise and unhappy"
    -- H. P. Lovecraft - Celephais

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.
    80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.

    Must have been a lot of incompetent players you played with. Revs should do more damage than necro, same goes for engis (depending on playstyle of the group)
    Yesterday we went full melee with our public, and an engi did double the amount of damage than second placed rev.

    In that regard, yes. Not balanced.

    I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).

    Yep overperforming build right now. Yet anet somehow thought that a 0,5 second nerf on burn duration of one trait would be enough.

    Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

    If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Talindra.4958 said:
    just because people play necro more because necro master of spamming skills and easy to play. weaver and rev etc other prof can reach the top on the arcdps meter too. its called meta people running.

    I wouldn't say that necro is easy to play. I see it every day that people are extremely bad on playing a supposedly easy to play class.

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭

    Pro tip is to take headstart. Attack before blob attack. Enemy don't wanna waste skills one dude so you can ramp up damage before fight even starts.

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • thealbatross.6853thealbatross.6853 Member ✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    Half of the people I've seen bragging about their burn guard and it's deeps don't sort their stats to exclude NPCs and objects. I remember quite vividly one dude bragging about his burn dh when 80% of the damage went to rams. Against organized groups that burn and vuln is getting ez converted into aegis and protection unless you outnumber them. Which is why you don't see them used in great numbers in gvgs. It's great against pugs, unorganized blobs, and PPT groups though.

  • This thread was a wonderful litmus test to see which apes were actually running dire/trailblazer proudly. Please learn what high risk / high reward means and kindly turn it into your life mantra instead of being the cowards you actually are.

  • Permeating Wrath just needs to get the Dhuumfire treatment to end all the hype on such a 4head faceroll build:

    1s ICD in pve, 5s ICD in WvW. I'll even settle for 1s ICD in WvW at this point. But Permeating Wrath is literally the only thing carrying burn guard at all.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MokoToko.6890 said:
    Permeating Wrath just needs to get the Dhuumfire treatment to end all the hype on such a 4head faceroll build:

    1s ICD in pve, 5s ICD in WvW. I'll even settle for 1s ICD in WvW at this point. But Permeating Wrath is literally the only thing carrying burn guard at all.

    Rather they nerf reflects because they have uncapped targets, and redo the zeal trait for spirit weapons. Half the spirit weapons don't fully benefit from tier 3 trait (only hammer and sword can apply burn for example).

    The rate of burn application on symbols is stable. But the spinny-spirit-sword when traited and reflects are ridiculous.

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • Vlad Morbius.1759Vlad Morbius.1759 Member ✭✭✭

    Balance is horrid, i watched a scrapper survive 5 people including a zerker with a kitten ton of burst. Scrapper is op, perma stealth thief is cancer, druid is op, condition damage has flipped again. Not one bloody person at Anet cares they've not commented on anything for months. Sick of all of it sick of all the broken promises like alliances, new xpack, regular balance, lies all bloody lies!

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:
    Balance is horrid, i watched a scrapper survive 5 people including a zerker with a kitten ton of burst.

    And I will assume that in your scenario the scrapper also instantly killed the 5 with a single AoE and went OOC in a second, mounted up and stomped all 5.

    Because if he instead could do nothing well he wasnt very usefull, was he.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The amount of "oh, this is again a l2p issue..." is huge in this thread...

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2020

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.
    80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.

    Must have been a lot of incompetent players you played with. Revs should do more damage than necro, same goes for engis (depending on playstyle of the group)
    Yesterday we went full melee with our public, and an engi did double the amount of damage than second placed rev.

    In that regard, yes. Not balanced.

    I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).

    Yep overperforming build right now. Yet anet somehow thought that a 0,5 second nerf on burn duration of one trait would be enough.

    Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

    If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

    burn stacks atm are overperforming, the moment one cleanse a instant 8k tick u receive a similiar burns stack fright after,
    Range gamplay is overperforming above melee combat, atm theres to much gapm due how range classes easilly can avoind mellee, due mobiulity and necro stacking that will counter melee groups.

    WvW atm is who as more aoe spam(more necros) wins.

    kitten a very sluguish combat...

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:
    Balance is horrid, i watched a scrapper survive 5 people including a zerker with a kitten ton of burst. Scrapper is op, perma stealth thief is cancer, druid is op, condition damage has flipped again. Not one bloody person at Anet cares they've not commented on anything for months. Sick of all of it sick of all the broken promises like alliances, new xpack, regular balance, lies all bloody lies!

    Were you the zerker?

    Did you miss your burst?

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Arc dps = your damage x no. Of people hit

    Apply it to heals and cleans also.

    What it does show is the amount of ae a certain class can dish.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:
    Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.

    Everything on your list except Protection also counters most sources of condition damage. Because condition damage still comes from attacks hitting you.

    Yes, but once conditions are on you, blocks, invuls etc do jack sh it, one is left with either cleanse or resistance.

    Invulns block all damage, including conditions that are already on you as well

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2020

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:
    Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.

    Everything on your list except Protection also counters most sources of condition damage. Because condition damage still comes from attacks hitting you.

    Yes, but once conditions are on you, blocks, invuls etc do jack sh it, one is left with either cleanse or resistance.

    Invulns block all damage, including conditions that are already on you as well

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    What sort of invul though, I ask since if you pop endure pain, you still receive damage from conditions. All warriors can testify this.

    Maybe invul in terms of ri? Or staying in spawn?

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @hobotnicax.7918 said:
    Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.

    Everything on your list except Protection also counters most sources of condition damage. Because condition damage still comes from attacks hitting you.

    Yes, but once conditions are on you, blocks, invuls etc do jack sh it, one is left with either cleanse or resistance.

    Invulns block all damage, including conditions that are already on you as well

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

    What sort of invul though, I ask since if you pop endure pain, you still receive damage from conditions. All warriors can testify this.

    Maybe invul in terms of ri? Or staying in spawn?

    Endure pain is not an invuln, it is a Damage Prevention skill as the wiki states. The wiki also lists all of the skills that apply invuln.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    All of the spirited debate about the minutia aside, the fact remains that the ability for professions to do AoE damage at a far distance is not balanced between professions. I don't mean 'poorly balanced,' I mean there's no balance at all. Not even an attempt.

    I don't see why that is a problem. What fun would it be if every build had equal strengths? Scourge is king of AoE corrupts, and arguably damage , but what about damage vs. single target, like in a 1v1 situation? Would a Scourge out damage a Holo? I highly doubt it. You may feel that a Holosmith has no place in a zerg, but they are still top tier when it comes to roaming, 1v1 and small engagements. Same holds true for Thief, Ranger, etc.

    Nearly every build I can think of has a place in WvW either in a large squad/zerg composition, or in a small group / playing solo. Different builds for different roles, which is no different than how sPvP or PvE works. You take a team fighter build to solo far, don't be upset at getting easily pushed off by a side noder. Use the right tool for the job. You may want to bring your Greatsword Spellbreaker into T4 fractals, but if you're the only warrior in the group, they would all be better off if you ran Berserker Axe/Axe + Mace/Mace banner slave.

    As one poster in the PVP section put it, in a competitive game mode, it isn't about what you think is fun to play, but about what works. I'd argue the same holds true for endgame PvE content. The builds people take into raids and T4 fractals aren't what 'is fun', but 'what works'.

    ...Did you even read my post? You just admitted that my assessment on engineer is accurate. You aren't addressing the problem I raised. You're just dancing around it.

    Yes I did, I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment on engineer, I was disagreeing with the notion that it was a problem.

    Not every build of every profession is equally effective in every role in every game mode in every MMO. In GW2 we see this with all roles in WvW, sPvP and PvE respectively. You just need to make peace with it.

  • PPT.3086PPT.3086 Member

    iNstAllEd aRc dPs gAme bAlEnse oMeGaLUl tOp dMg eZ bUrN lEl aNet

  • @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    All of the spirited debate about the minutia aside, the fact remains that the ability for professions to do AoE damage at a far distance is not balanced between professions. I don't mean 'poorly balanced,' I mean there's no balance at all. Not even an attempt.

    I don't see why that is a problem. What fun would it be if every build had equal strengths? Scourge is king of AoE corrupts, and arguably damage , but what about damage vs. single target, like in a 1v1 situation? Would a Scourge out damage a Holo? I highly doubt it. You may feel that a Holosmith has no place in a zerg, but they are still top tier when it comes to roaming, 1v1 and small engagements. Same holds true for Thief, Ranger, etc.

    Nearly every build I can think of has a place in WvW either in a large squad/zerg composition, or in a small group / playing solo. Different builds for different roles, which is no different than how sPvP or PvE works. You take a team fighter build to solo far, don't be upset at getting easily pushed off by a side noder. Use the right tool for the job. You may want to bring your Greatsword Spellbreaker into T4 fractals, but if you're the only warrior in the group, they would all be better off if you ran Berserker Axe/Axe + Mace/Mace banner slave.

    As one poster in the PVP section put it, in a competitive game mode, it isn't about what you think is fun to play, but about what works. I'd argue the same holds true for endgame PvE content. The builds people take into raids and T4 fractals aren't what 'is fun', but 'what works'.

    ...Did you even read my post? You just admitted that my assessment on engineer is accurate. You aren't addressing the problem I raised. You're just dancing around it.

    Yes I did, I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment on engineer, I was disagreeing with the notion that it was a problem.

    Not every build of every profession is equally effective in every role in every game mode in every MMO. In GW2 we see this with all roles in WvW, sPvP and PvE respectively. You just need to make peace with it.

    There is a difference between being unequally effective, and having no effect at all. Every profession can solo roam/small scale. They're designed to be able to do this for sPvP's sake. But not every profession can large scale, which is what naturally happens in WvW. If half of the professions are effectively dead weight to a commander, then that presents a pretty big problem. Imagine if a new mesmer main shows up to WvW, only to find that he is completely ineffective and commanders don't want him for this ineffectiveness.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @aaron.7850 said:
    Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi [..]?

    Ganking. Ganking is the answer to your question.

    It's a valid role, but people who do it are low. We all know this, yet some try to dress it up with fancy rhetoric i.e. "Roaming".

    Thief OP? Better nerf Scourge ... again.
    Hashtag BlameMcLain

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @aaron.7850 said:
    80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians.

    this is OK.

    15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.

    this is also ok. No one distrub them play any class and any biuld that thay want.

    I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).

    nice

    Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it.

    The truth is - you can choose any class and any biuld.

    Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

    if you want- you can

    If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes.

    no one can't distrub take only necro and guard. Welcome! come, take, and play.

    Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

    no problem! This is main target of wvw - take what you want and do action.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • shiri.4257shiri.4257 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2020

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    All of the spirited debate about the minutia aside, the fact remains that the ability for professions to do AoE damage at a far distance is not balanced between professions. I don't mean 'poorly balanced,' I mean there's no balance at all. Not even an attempt.

    I don't see why that is a problem. What fun would it be if every build had equal strengths? Scourge is king of AoE corrupts, and arguably damage , but what about damage vs. single target, like in a 1v1 situation? Would a Scourge out damage a Holo? I highly doubt it. You may feel that a Holosmith has no place in a zerg, but they are still top tier when it comes to roaming, 1v1 and small engagements. Same holds true for Thief, Ranger, etc.

    Nearly every build I can think of has a place in WvW either in a large squad/zerg composition, or in a small group / playing solo. Different builds for different roles, which is no different than how sPvP or PvE works. You take a team fighter build to solo far, don't be upset at getting easily pushed off by a side noder. Use the right tool for the job. You may want to bring your Greatsword Spellbreaker into T4 fractals, but if you're the only warrior in the group, they would all be better off if you ran Berserker Axe/Axe + Mace/Mace banner slave.

    As one poster in the PVP section put it, in a competitive game mode, it isn't about what you think is fun to play, but about what works. I'd argue the same holds true for endgame PvE content. The builds people take into raids and T4 fractals aren't what 'is fun', but 'what works'.

    ...Did you even read my post? You just admitted that my assessment on engineer is accurate. You aren't addressing the problem I raised. You're just dancing around it.

    Yes I did, I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment on engineer, I was disagreeing with the notion that it was a problem.

    Not every build of every profession is equally effective in every role in every game mode in every MMO. In GW2 we see this with all roles in WvW, sPvP and PvE respectively. You just need to make peace with it.

    There is a difference between being unequally effective, and having no effect at all. Every profession can solo roam/small scale. They're designed to be able to do this for sPvP's sake. But not every profession can large scale, which is what naturally happens in WvW. If half of the professions are effectively dead weight to a commander, then that presents a pretty big problem. Imagine if a new mesmer main shows up to WvW, only to find that he is completely ineffective and commanders don't want him for this ineffectiveness.

    imagine, if over half of the professions were usable in wvw. imagine if the player figures out how to optimize his mesmer for wvw roles. imagine that perhaps anet isn't the problem, but perhaps the player?

    Spectre [VII] - Wood League Champion. Making "fight guilds" stack on higher tiers since 2013.
    Michelin rated WvW guild since 2015. The gold standard. Never transferred, never reformed, adapting and reloading with or without Anet.

  • @shiri.4257 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    All of the spirited debate about the minutia aside, the fact remains that the ability for professions to do AoE damage at a far distance is not balanced between professions. I don't mean 'poorly balanced,' I mean there's no balance at all. Not even an attempt.

    I don't see why that is a problem. What fun would it be if every build had equal strengths? Scourge is king of AoE corrupts, and arguably damage , but what about damage vs. single target, like in a 1v1 situation? Would a Scourge out damage a Holo? I highly doubt it. You may feel that a Holosmith has no place in a zerg, but they are still top tier when it comes to roaming, 1v1 and small engagements. Same holds true for Thief, Ranger, etc.

    Nearly every build I can think of has a place in WvW either in a large squad/zerg composition, or in a small group / playing solo. Different builds for different roles, which is no different than how sPvP or PvE works. You take a team fighter build to solo far, don't be upset at getting easily pushed off by a side noder. Use the right tool for the job. You may want to bring your Greatsword Spellbreaker into T4 fractals, but if you're the only warrior in the group, they would all be better off if you ran Berserker Axe/Axe + Mace/Mace banner slave.

    As one poster in the PVP section put it, in a competitive game mode, it isn't about what you think is fun to play, but about what works. I'd argue the same holds true for endgame PvE content. The builds people take into raids and T4 fractals aren't what 'is fun', but 'what works'.

    ...Did you even read my post? You just admitted that my assessment on engineer is accurate. You aren't addressing the problem I raised. You're just dancing around it.

    Yes I did, I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment on engineer, I was disagreeing with the notion that it was a problem.

    Not every build of every profession is equally effective in every role in every game mode in every MMO. In GW2 we see this with all roles in WvW, sPvP and PvE respectively. You just need to make peace with it.

    There is a difference between being unequally effective, and having no effect at all. Every profession can solo roam/small scale. They're designed to be able to do this for sPvP's sake. But not every profession can large scale, which is what naturally happens in WvW. If half of the professions are effectively dead weight to a commander, then that presents a pretty big problem. Imagine if a new mesmer main shows up to WvW, only to find that he is completely ineffective and commanders don't want him for this ineffectiveness.

    imagine, if over half of the professions were usable in wvw. imagine if the player figures out how to optimize his mesmer for wvw roles. imagine that perhaps anet isn't the problem, but perhaps the player?

    No, because they don't have any good options.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • scerevisiae.1972scerevisiae.1972 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2020

    ele > scrapper > thief > reaper > rev > then maybe necro

    IMHO this is somewhere between "wrong" and "overly simplistic".

    for a mainly ranged / pirate ship situation, it would be:
    glass weaver > rev/ranger >> scourge/reaper >>> scrapper >>> warrior

    for a push comp that only pushes when shades/wells are up:
    glass weaver > reaper/scrapper > scourge, rev, warrior

    for a push comp that prefers to brawl:
    reaper, warrior > scrapper > weaver > scourge, rev

    something like that. thief and weaver are heavily dependent on player skill and situation, too much to generalise.

    scourge and scrapper are the lowest skill DPS tha get the job done which is why most groups use them, but they're definitely not highest DPS unless you only look at fights that are orchestrated around shade/well CDs. good commanders will recognise this kind of group and avoid bombs and run over scourge/scrapper groups when they're CDs are down and their DPS sucks.

    groups that run only scourges/scrappers often get lolpwned by pug rangers and any kind of ranged/clouding/pirate ship situation.

    the key to success in WVW is diversity and playing to your comps strengths/weaknesses, but nearly any comp can work.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i dunno when i run thief in guild i can easily keep up with the 1111 scrapper if not out dps them.
    im idd not fan of range stuff i always go balls deep.

    but ye all in all every1 has a spot that it shines at scourge > reaper when u go for ranged but in melee the reaper outshine scourge again.
    and so on.

    the dps meter just irritates me for a while already, u cant base full raid on dmg only.
    no dmg can be done when u have bad support and no dmg can be done when u have commander that favors ranged fights over melee then every1 will say melee is kitten while if u put a weaver in a melee situation for example (wont happen but w/e) then every1 will say weaver sucks.

    so ye at the end it comes down to the way the commander plays in my opinion.

  • shiri.4257shiri.4257 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @shiri.4257 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    All of the spirited debate about the minutia aside, the fact remains that the ability for professions to do AoE damage at a far distance is not balanced between professions. I don't mean 'poorly balanced,' I mean there's no balance at all. Not even an attempt.

    I don't see why that is a problem. What fun would it be if every build had equal strengths? Scourge is king of AoE corrupts, and arguably damage , but what about damage vs. single target, like in a 1v1 situation? Would a Scourge out damage a Holo? I highly doubt it. You may feel that a Holosmith has no place in a zerg, but they are still top tier when it comes to roaming, 1v1 and small engagements. Same holds true for Thief, Ranger, etc.

    Nearly every build I can think of has a place in WvW either in a large squad/zerg composition, or in a small group / playing solo. Different builds for different roles, which is no different than how sPvP or PvE works. You take a team fighter build to solo far, don't be upset at getting easily pushed off by a side noder. Use the right tool for the job. You may want to bring your Greatsword Spellbreaker into T4 fractals, but if you're the only warrior in the group, they would all be better off if you ran Berserker Axe/Axe + Mace/Mace banner slave.

    As one poster in the PVP section put it, in a competitive game mode, it isn't about what you think is fun to play, but about what works. I'd argue the same holds true for endgame PvE content. The builds people take into raids and T4 fractals aren't what 'is fun', but 'what works'.

    ...Did you even read my post? You just admitted that my assessment on engineer is accurate. You aren't addressing the problem I raised. You're just dancing around it.

    Yes I did, I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment on engineer, I was disagreeing with the notion that it was a problem.

    Not every build of every profession is equally effective in every role in every game mode in every MMO. In GW2 we see this with all roles in WvW, sPvP and PvE respectively. You just need to make peace with it.

    There is a difference between being unequally effective, and having no effect at all. Every profession can solo roam/small scale. They're designed to be able to do this for sPvP's sake. But not every profession can large scale, which is what naturally happens in WvW. If half of the professions are effectively dead weight to a commander, then that presents a pretty big problem. Imagine if a new mesmer main shows up to WvW, only to find that he is completely ineffective and commanders don't want him for this ineffectiveness.

    imagine, if over half of the professions were usable in wvw. imagine if the player figures out how to optimize his mesmer for wvw roles. imagine that perhaps anet isn't the problem, but perhaps the player?

    No, because they don't have any good options.

    They do, your theory crafting is just bad or you fail to execute what's necessary for the squad. There are 8 classes below and they function in a zerg from one capacity to another. The issue isn't the classes aren't viable to a zerg. The issue are the players believe the zerg revolves around them.

    Mesmer- commander class, some of the best commanders in the game use the chrono/mesmer of some sort. Also use them in squads for veils, portals, and primarily focus pulls to setup engages.

    Guardian- FB/DH/burn guards

    Necro- Scourges- dont even need to explain that

    Warriors - Spellbreakers can run as dps or support. Then there's the jihad warrior or burstzerker as others call it.

    Elementalist- function as auramancers, immob eles, or weavers

    Engineers - bruiser or medic scrappers

    revenants - still there and provide a good combo for a range dps synergizing with the mesmer focus pulls.

    Soulbeast - there are squads using them for immobs, clearing siege, and driver sniping. The issue is most soulbeasts don't know how to do eitiher of those 3 to any effectiveness. They are either sniping some random bronze invader, lolligagging at the gates/walls or immobing the ambient that's attacking their pet.

    Thiefs- might be the least useful in a zerg fight. but if there are thieves that help the squad in the bigger scheme of things such as flipping supply lines and camps, tapping keeps, or cutting off reinforcements, that works too. again the issue with this class in the zerg is 9/10 thieves join squad and lolligag around the map or more likely not even on the right map. they come into a squad and expect to have party priority trying to face tank a blob with their pogo stick.

    So at worst-case scenario, if you exclude soulbeast and thieves from wvw viability. you have 6/8 classes that are playable in a squad. with the 4th/5th party slot competing for a slot. Which is alot more than in vanilla gw2. The primary issue is l2p or l2build. it's like the PHD basket weaver coming into silicon valley and trying to tell them how to make computers.

    Spectre [VII] - Wood League Champion. Making "fight guilds" stack on higher tiers since 2013.
    Michelin rated WvW guild since 2015. The gold standard. Never transferred, never reformed, adapting and reloading with or without Anet.

  • @shiri.4257 said:
    Stuff

    Because you've dropped my whole original point, let me restate it: They don't have any good long-range offensive options. If you run one in a zerg, your job is to run around doing very little until whatever niche support that the good professions don't have is required. This is an issue, because the other professions can mount a long range assault while also supporting a zerg. All of your examples on how to l2p are really "learn to do something else,' which is just an affirmation of what I said in the first place.

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    Honestly this is just tiring, as you don't even know what your argument is anymore.

    My argument has been consistent. You're the one who forgets what I said over my brevity.

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    I agree. Just as every profession can play in a Zerg.

    And then you proceed to ignore everything I said, because you'd rather scream that I don't know what I'm talking about then actually pay attention to what I'm talking about. Prime example of this, you say:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Engineer = Medi Scrapper + Bomb Kit Scrapper

    When I said earlier:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Personally, one of the professions I always wanted to bring into WvW but don't is the engineer, largely because they have no offensive presence in a zerg. My options are **to spam heals and hope everyone else is competent, or to small scale roam. **

    Bolded for emphasis. Confused? That I already mentioned the things that you claim that I don't know? That is on you:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Confused? I have no doubt. Because your original argument was that not every build for every profession was useful in a zerg, to which I pointed out, the same rules apply to small group / solo roaming.

    That's not what I said. It's not every build for every profession. It's every profession. You give the example of spamming heals, which nearly every profession can do. The large scale classes are Guardian, Elementalist, Necromancer, Revenant, and Ranger. Every one of them has a support, and every one of them can do good damage at a long range. This gives them the ability to sustain at least some offense while supporting, while also giving them the flexibility to switch between roles in the zerg simply by switching templates. The other professions don't have this, and any perceived ability to solo roam on those professions doesn't compensate for this. For a veteran with multiple professions and multiple builds on them, this isn't as much of an issue. But not every player has this.

    The reason why none of this makes sense to you is because you presumed what my argument was, and have refused to budge from that position.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @shiri.4257 said:
    Stuff

    Because you've dropped my whole original point, let me restate it: They don't have any good long-range offensive options. If you run one in a zerg, your job is to run around doing very little until whatever niche support that the good professions don't have is required. This is an issue, because the other professions can mount a long range assault while also supporting a zerg. All of your examples on how to l2p are really "learn to do something else,' which is just an affirmation of what I said in the first place.

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    Honestly this is just tiring, as you don't even know what your argument is anymore.

    My argument has been consistent. You're the one who forgets what I said over my brevity.

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    I agree. Just as every profession can play in a Zerg.

    And then you proceed to ignore everything I said, because you'd rather scream that I don't know what I'm talking about then actually pay attention to what I'm talking about. Prime example of this, you say:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Engineer = Medi Scrapper + Bomb Kit Scrapper

    When I said earlier:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Personally, one of the professions I always wanted to bring into WvW but don't is the engineer, largely because they have no offensive presence in a zerg. My options are **to spam heals and hope everyone else is competent, or to small scale roam. **

    Bolded for emphasis. Confused? That I already mentioned the things that you claim that I don't know? That is on you:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Confused? I have no doubt. Because your original argument was that not every build for every profession was useful in a zerg, to which I pointed out, the same rules apply to small group / solo roaming.

    That's not what I said. It's not every build for every profession. It's every profession. You give the example of spamming heals, which nearly every profession can do. The large scale classes are Guardian, Elementalist, Necromancer, Revenant, and Ranger. Every one of them has a support, and every one of them can do good damage at a long range. This gives them the ability to sustain at least some offense while supporting, while also giving them the flexibility to switch between roles in the zerg simply by switching templates. The other professions don't have this, and any perceived ability to solo roam on those professions doesn't compensate for this. For a veteran with multiple professions and multiple builds on them, this isn't as much of an issue. But not every player has this.

    The reason why none of this makes sense to you is because you presumed what my argument was, and have refused to budge from that position.

    dude, do you wvw at all? dps scrapper can top the charts no problem lmao

    every class has at least one viable zerg build. The only class that's particularly difficult to play well in a zerg is thief, but good ones can pump out some great damage with staff daredevil

  • @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    dude, do you wvw at all? dps scrapper can top the charts no problem lmao

    every class has at least one viable zerg build. The only class that's particularly difficult to play well in a zerg is thief, but good ones can pump out some great damage with staff daredevil

    Considering the subject of this thread is that guardians, necromancers, and elementalists dwarf everyone in sustained zerg DPS, this is what I am going off of. There's already spirited debate on the minutia of how useful that DPS is, but the limited application of melee weapons in zerg combat makes me skeptical that scrapper tops the charts.

    Personally, I play ele. The reason is simple: it can do everything. I've melted entire groups with a single meteor storm, swapped to sword to small scale/roam, and I've even had some experience healing and commanding at the same time. The zerg play is fairly feast or famine, but once that storm hits I can turn the tide of the battle. Before PoF I played rev. Back then, it could do everything on a single build. I didn't heal much with it, but I did drop the tablet on siege every once in awhile.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    dude, do you wvw at all?

    Obviously he does. Well, in an alternate dimension where the ranger is one of the "large scale" meta zerg classes at least.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2020

    What are you talking about; you get awesome dps on your own team when you reflect it back to them!

    Anyhow, check out bomb kit scrapper.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    dude, do you wvw at all? dps scrapper can top the charts no problem lmao

    every class has at least one viable zerg build. The only class that's particularly difficult to play well in a zerg is thief, but good ones can pump out some great damage with staff daredevil

    Considering the subject of this thread is that guardians, necromancers, and elementalists dwarf everyone in sustained zerg DPS, this is what I am going off of. There's already spirited debate on the minutia of how useful that DPS is, but the limited application of melee weapons in zerg combat makes me skeptical that scrapper tops the charts.

    Personally, I play ele. The reason is simple: it can do everything. I've melted entire groups with a single meteor storm, swapped to sword to small scale/roam, and I've even had some experience healing and commanding at the same time. The zerg play is fairly feast or famine, but once that storm hits I can turn the tide of the battle. Before PoF I played rev. Back then, it could do everything on a single build. I didn't heal much with it, but I did drop the tablet on siege every once in awhile.

    Have you ever visited youtube.com? It's a neat new site with endless videos of zerg fights, set the filter to show the most recent ones. Look for some with arcdps up, scrappers can pump out 30k aoes with their AA

    I think some of the videos you find will be enlightening now that you can also see your damage with arcdps

  • Sandzibar.5134Sandzibar.5134 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2020

    Once upon a time in game design Ranged AOE was weakest, with single target Melee being the strongest in terms of dmg output.

    So brave of the Anet balance professionals to subvert expectations.

  • Vornollo.5182Vornollo.5182 Member ✭✭✭

    Balance isn't good, but it's better then how it was prior to the March patch.
    Conditions should be reduced to be more on-par with power (as you can currently spike with "DoTs" just as hard as Power).

    But don't forget that you cannot judge WvW zerg efficiency just on DPS.
    Try doing that DPS without a Firebrand and/or Scrapper carrying you from point A to point B with their support.
    Try to get those numbers without Spellbreakers popping their ridiculously OP Winds of Disenchantment (e.g. completely disabling the enemy FB's/Scrappers who are carrying their DPS's).
    In a good zerg/group, everyone has their own little role to perform. Individually those builds will be dreadful, but in a group they'll be nearly unstoppable.
    So sure, you can use DPS-meters for some idea of what's happening (and establishing that balance is still not quite there yet and hasn't been since HoT's powercreep), you can also use it to establish that the enemy is doing bad on condi-cleansing/maintaining resistance, or that your spellbreakers are doing a good job at controlling the enemy's resistance and such.
    Heck, there's fights where you got some annoying mesmer on the side who decides to Moa the commander, completely swinging the engage in their sides' favor, but you won't see that on your DPS meter.

    So yeah, agreed that balance isn't good yet (mainly condi and Winds of Disenchantment need looking at), but you cannot just judge all of it on a DPS meter.

    [PUSH] Constant Pressure

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2020

    what the hell lol. its pretty obvious you are contributing to downs as a burn guard if you see consecutive 5k+ burn tics. ugh zero logic brains going at it makes me tired. on one hand i've always liked playing burn guard but on the other i know its borken asf and needs to be nerfed properly. is whatever.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • shiri.4257shiri.4257 Member ✭✭✭✭

    my man in here. i just contacted arcdps tech support. he's advised me on the trick to topping the dps charts, it works with any build and any class you want too!

    1) Step 1- buy commander tag for 300g
    2) Step 2 - create squad
    3) Step 3 - close squad before people can join.
    4) Step 4 - Rejoice in your top dps!

    Spectre [VII] - Wood League Champion. Making "fight guilds" stack on higher tiers since 2013.
    Michelin rated WvW guild since 2015. The gold standard. Never transferred, never reformed, adapting and reloading with or without Anet.

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    what the hell lol. its pretty obvious you are contributing to downs as a burn guard if you see consecutive 5k+ burn tics. ugh zero logic brains going at it makes me tired. on one hand i've always liked playing burn guard but on the other i know its borken asf and needs to be nerfed properly. is whatever.

    Who tf is letting you get consecutive 5k+ burn ticks on them? They're kitten at the game.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    what the hell lol. its pretty obvious you are contributing to downs as a burn guard if you see consecutive 5k+ burn tics. ugh zero logic brains going at it makes me tired. on one hand i've always liked playing burn guard but on the other i know its borken asf and needs to be nerfed properly. is whatever.

    Who tf is letting you get consecutive 5k+ burn ticks on them? They're kitten at the game.

    yeah its so hard

    Te lazla otstara.

  • SWI.4127SWI.4127 Member ✭✭✭

    Burn guard is tough to balance because it is very much a test of how competent a zerg is. If they have proper comp and know when to use their skills, it will do close to nothing. If they don't even have supports or proper parties set up, it will melt people.

  • V Winter.5371V Winter.5371 Member ✭✭
    edited June 24, 2020

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    what the hell lol. its pretty obvious you are contributing to downs as a burn guard if you see consecutive 5k+ burn tics. ugh zero logic brains going at it makes me tired. on one hand i've always liked playing burn guard but on the other i know its borken asf and needs to be nerfed properly. is whatever.

    Who tf is letting you get consecutive 5k+ burn ticks on them? They're kitten at the game.

    yeah its so hard

    A single stack of burn ticks for 411 dmg on the most popular burn guard build (450 on the most unrealistically maxed out for burn dmg build, let's use that instead) or wait (you can tick for 590 using the unrealistic build and a full 25 stacks of might, lets settle on this one). So yeah, you'd need over 8 stacks of burn, not just once, but consecutively to get the "not so hard consecutive 5k+ burn ticks". Again I ask, who tf is letting you maintain 8+ burn stacks on them? They're kitten at the game.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @V Winter.5371 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    what the hell lol. its pretty obvious you are contributing to downs as a burn guard if you see consecutive 5k+ burn tics. ugh zero logic brains going at it makes me tired. on one hand i've always liked playing burn guard but on the other i know its borken asf and needs to be nerfed properly. is whatever.

    Who tf is letting you get consecutive 5k+ burn ticks on them? They're kitten at the game.

    yeah its so hard

    A single stack of burn ticks for 411 dmg on the most popular burn guard build (450 on the most unrealistically maxed out for burn dmg build, let's use that instead) or wait (you can tick for 590 using the unrealistic build and a full 25 stacks of might, lets settle on this one). So yeah, you'd need over 8 stacks of burn, not just once, but consecutively to get the "not so hard consecutive 5k+ burn ticks". Again I ask, who tf is letting you maintain 8+ burn stacks on them? They're kitten at the game.

    SoJ hits 5 targets and applies 4 stacks per cast. PW triggers every 3rd damage packet. SoJ hits 20 times (25 w/ fire sigil), applying 25/3= 8 aoe burn stacks. So SoJ alone applies 12 stacks of burning.

    It's very realistic to run full vipers/grieving burn dh and you self apply 2 stacks of might with scepter equipped on each PW activation. 8 activations=16 might per cast.

    Or we can look at scepter 2, which hits 7x per second and counts double towards PW activation so long as you're running zeal. 14/3= 4 aoe burn stacks per second = 8 might each second.

    Each SoJ takes ~2s to fully apply damage. Place both on the same spot and you generate 20 aoe burn burn stacks in 2s while gaining 32 stacks of might. The key to playing it well is whether you can keep a group in place for 2s, either because they're stacked tightly or in a choke or due to immob.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    snips

    thanks, i don't have the energy.

    Te lazla otstara.