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Make losing and winning matter

Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭

Make changes to reward system wich rewards your winning i think this would encourage more to play and add a incentive to win skirmishes and matchups. And add debuffs or loses for losing

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  • archmagus.7249archmagus.7249 Member ✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Make changes to reward system wich rewards your winning i think this would encourage more to play and add a incentive to win skirmishes and matchups. And add debuffs or loses for losing

    They had that with the influence system before megaservers, and it wasn't very fun. If you were the top ranked world, then yes it was really nice because you had a sizable buff, but not so much if you were a lower ranked world, because you were at a major disadvantage.

    Maybe something like gold, claim tickets, memories of battle, gear, potions of wvw xp/reward track, etc. The higher your world's score, the more loot you get at wvw reset. It doesn't affect other players, and it can give players an incentive to play.

  • Carrots don’t really help . Tho could always precursor % loot or what not that would drive anybody into wvw .

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Two blues and a green for the best job of server stacking, every week.
    Worth $20 a quarter to any real Pvper

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  • SpellOfIniquity.1780SpellOfIniquity.1780 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    I'll just copy/paste what I said on Reddit yesterday in a thread about WvW changes and rewards.

    The problem I have with that suggestion, and many people who make similar ones, is the focus on rewards.

    I do think it's important for rewards to be present, but due to the nature of WvW, it is very easy to exploit gaining rewards in a way that is harmful to others. Similar to how you have people who graveyard in PvE and/or people who brain AFK during meta/champ/legendary/etc. fights where DPS is more important, increasing rewards too much could also attract these players that will exert only minimal effort. We already have this problem even with rewards as low as they are.

    It is very possible to make a decent amount of gold in WvW but you have to be willing to convert it through materials. Heavy Loot Bags give quite a lot of them.

    If rewards are ever to be increased I think it's important that ANet focuses on making those rewards require a certain degree of effort. I like the suggestion that taking objectives that are of a higher upgrade tier offer better rewards for example because that incentivizes going for those structures rather than ktraining paper ones all the time.

    Something as simple as a stacking short duration WXP/Magic Find buff for killing players while alone (calculated based on players present within X vicinity) would also be a nice small bonus for roamers engaging in combat.

    //

    The rewards for winning would have to be minimal or we would have server stacking worse than we do now. The problem with a lot of these things is that a lot of players want to contribute as little effort as possible for the highest reward. I don't think it's possible to avoid this completely but the impact can definitely be reduced. Fortunately, because rewards for winning are so minimal, server stacking isn't as bad as it was some years ago because people don't care about winning as much as they used to. But we do still have lots of guilds that transfer en masse for the easiest victories despite this.

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  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    something like:

    rewards = (PPT conquered + PPT defended + PPK earned) / (ppl online in your team) x (ppl online in enemy teams)

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @enkidu.5937 said:
    something like:

    rewards = (PPT conquered + PPT defended + PPK earned) / (ppl online in your team) x (ppl online in enemy teams)

    Good luck getting rewards when you have to divide by 0.

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  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @enkidu.5937 said:
    something like:

    rewards = (PPT conquered + PPT defended + PPK earned) / (ppl online in your team) x (ppl online in enemy teams)

    Good luck getting rewards when you have to divide by 0.

    That’s infinite rewards B)

    But (ppl online in enemy teams) should be left of / anyway (more rewards, if you get your points vs more enemies). If (ppl online in your team) Is 0 then there is no need to compute a reward for no one.

  • Solanum.6983Solanum.6983 Member ✭✭✭

    Rewards for WvW playtime and activity are very lacking compared to the other gamemodes but I think you have to be careful with rewards since it could just end up becoming a situation where three teams just go around the map capping each others things.
    Defending I agree should be more important but first they need to buff defensive gameplay.

    Just some Ideas but they could:
    Make outnumbered mean something more than additional pips.
    Dragon Banners need to only work in the location they came from, making them a defensive tactic.
    Airstrike, chilling fog, EWP, Invulnerable all need to only be able to be pulled when a keep/tower is under attack to prevent trolls.
    Rework the downstate revive so a blob cant insta ress.
    Possibly Buff AC, Cannon and Ballista damage

  • has been discussed several times. if u want make winning matter (not skirmishes tho, that's too small and pointless - this would be really encouraging the burning out which Anet argumented the cutting of tournaments), then there should be rewards in terms of mattering (good) loot and/or gold weeky

    currently weekly rewards are what? 1 warlords armor chest, some claim tickets, some mystic coins, 3-4 shards (grandm. mark shards)

    the losing-ppt server mustn't get stat debuffs for losing skirmishes, that'd be just and plainly dumb. often losing ppt is just due to the numerical imbalance, regardless how hard u wipe them in battles. @Laila Lightness.8742

    there is yet the issue of borderland bloodlust, which is combined with the non working numerical balance one big problem in Wvw. gives the number advantage additionally more stats, across all maps. just bullcrap.

    overall, in a reform, player kills should count WAY more. currently they have barely any effect. they could maybe just let playerkillcount run parallel to ppt count, and have a 1st 2nd 3rd and resulting point there as well.

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 the stacking thing isn't that bad, i doubt it would become way more than we have now... pptstacking is yet big, same with guilds stacking - like 5 servers contain most of the better guilds.
    about ppt, ofc there is the problem that also scamming players who want to be carried bandwagoned to it, but this is yet the case, despite no real use of it.

    that is bc the system needs a fix anyways, then the rewards can be fixed.

  • phreeak.1023phreeak.1023 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    Yeah give people rewards for winning (get a tier up or 1st in T1) and a reason to bandwagon even more......not.

    I want the pvp wing backpack in wvw. Not that kitten wvw one who only fits on charrs.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Another wave of these types of threads?

    There already is something that matters for winning and losing, there is a ladder on which to compete.

    What is broken is what defines who wins or loses and that is why no one cares about the ladder.

    It is the same reason that makes any form of item-based rewards pointless until what is broken gets fixed.

  • Reward should be divided by how many team mate is in your squad/zerg

  • My suggest is to have a stone or something at citadel wp where we show pretty simple statistics like "most kills on your server" or "guild with highest K/D".

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    thats really debateable tho. if we're beeing honest, beeing t1 is worthless in the end. that one reason why nobody cares about the tiers, other than for manipulation matchups. casuals hop to get easy farms as pugs on onto good fighting base servers, no matter which tier.

    so again, not worth wasting time thinking about updating rewards really, as long as the matchmaking system is this stale and easy to manipulate.

    and no @SweetPotato.7456 that makes questionable sense only.
    neither if u want to give more players on a group better nor if u want to give them worse rewards would really change much currently.

    while it is maybe a okayish thought to improve rewards for big groups, since it forces people to stop doing single kitten actions constantly.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    as long as population are imbalanced af. its useless since it is impossible to play for incentives when enemies are ist 5 times more players.

  • Won't work for a very simple reason.
    Put debuffs on those that lost, and you just succesfully chased off a large proportion of the WvW player base.
    You simply would put the final nail into WvW.

    Debuff my rewards? Ok am out. Back to PvE permanently, I got enough GoB to last quite a while anyways.

    How to make WvW interesting again?

    Give us ACTUAL rewards that are usefull and valuable. It is insane that you go back to PvE to "make gold" because WvW is such a borked and uninteresting reward system that you cannot even get half the rewards you get, compared to some low effort farming runs in PvE.

    Personally I would
    a: Revamp the Participation system. (Running a Dolyak gets you quicker to t6 than actual fighting enemies, specially on longer fights you easely bleed participation - wrong way to go about it)
    b: Revamp the Reward Tracks. Some of the later ones give more trash than anything valuable - with the drizzlewood coast one being a very lazy copy/paste from dragonhall. Shamefully low effort that I cannot understand Anet doesn't feel ashamed about.
    c: Give better loot on capture (here is your winning reward most easely implemented) Scale reward with the type and tier of the objective captured.
    d: remove silly PvE style content like the vets and the "friendship" thing.

    Just my 2 cents. You can agree or disagree, I don't have all the answers obviously, but these are the most obvious things that come to my mind.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2020

    Better access to Ascended gear (similar to Fractals) and better liquid gold rewards is all you need. WvW is already the best place to get many items like stat-selectable Exotic gear, Transmutation Charges, and rewards too difficult to farm in PvE.

    One example I can think of was the /rockout emote, which was awful to get in PvE, but reasonable in WvW.

    The biggest problem is that there's just no liquid profit, so as a game mode it can't sustain players, even for regular, everyday costs that are barely covered by dailies, and that's assuming you actually manage to do all of them. Then its nothing compared to the 25-30g/hour you can make in PvE, of course no one's asking for it to be so high but at least 5g/hour liquid profit would be reasonable.

    The issue here is the devs are afraid to fully separate WvW from PvE. In most Realm Vs Realm (RvR, or what other games call WvW), games I've played, the game mode is entirely self-sustaining with even having cities in their warzones. Max level players can enter the game mode entirely as the end-game and never return to the PvE environment they levelled up in, that's far from the case in GW2.

    You can't even log out of WvW without being sent back to PvE without Armistice Bastion pass. And there's no guild hall in the Mists, and many other hangups that keep it from being a self-sustaining game mode, and thats why the population is low.

    If the devs don't want the game mode to die steps must be taken to make it more self-sustaining, including liquid profit.

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  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Even more stacking and bandwagonning?

  • @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:
    thats really debateable tho. if we're beeing honest, beeing t1 is worthless in the end. that one reason why nobody cares about the tiers, other than for manipulation matchups. casuals hop to get easy farms as pugs on onto good fighting base servers, no matter which tier.

    so again, not worth wasting time thinking about updating rewards really, as long as the matchmaking system is this stale and easy to manipulate.

    and no @SweetPotato.7456 that makes questionable sense only.
    neither if u want to give more players on a group better nor if u want to give them worse rewards would really change much currently.

    while it is maybe a okayish thought to improve rewards for big groups, since it forces people to stop doing single kitten actions constantly.

    what questionable sense? i do not understand what you are saying /replying/commenting on what i said. please explain

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @aspirine.6852 said:
    Even more stacking and bandwagonning?

    This is why they can't give rewards. Anyone remember how bad all the flying and teleport hacking was when there were orbs? If you gave winners any tangible reward they would just stack harder and cheat more often.

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  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    we already have +1, and +2 pips on each tick for winner. It more valuable than any strange debuff, or something else.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tuna Bandit.3786 said:
    Give us ACTUAL rewards that are usefull and valuable.

    Just to point out the problem with this, since it depends entirely upon what each individual consider to be useful and valuable. Personally I can't think of a single thing in the game I'd find to be either atm, neither in wvw, pvp nor pve.

    And if rewards is the answer, then the game just stops whenever people have had enough rewards to lose interest in it.

    WvW always worked because of the gameplay, the players that stuck around and played for long periods of time never stuck with it for the rewards. So focusing on the rewards will only give short term players, and won't actually solve the long term issues.

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  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:
    we already have +1, and +2 pips on each tick for winner. It more valuable than any strange debuff, or something else.

    Yeah. The varied tick rate is already quite noticeable, especially if you're a sub-500-rank player.

    (And, because it's scoped to a "skirmish" period, you aren't overly penalized for other servers out-PPTing you while you sleep.)

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2020

    I don't think there needs to be any more of a special reward for playing WvW unless it's more cosmetics hyping up our game mode. I think the devs should have npc chatter and world announcements with quick commentary or updates about what's going on in other game modes, with some aesthetic or tie-in to current story releases, and maybe something subtle but noticeable on the screen you can click on that starts to show off some basic features about that mode and it's rewards and tracks that pertain to whatever the current living world content is going on or what map you're on. Some player mostly doing pve might find that they can knock out some part of their shopping list by playing less but more intense time in one of the other game modes and can adjust their routines or trajectory.

    Something like that could make the game feel less fractured and could help people make the most out of the time they have to log in.

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  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    What's funny is that people tanked to manipulate match ups so that blackgate players would think they won something each week and every week please don't ruin it they've been thinking for years that they are undefeated champions of all time.

  • Straegen.2938Straegen.2938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2020

    If you weren't around for tournaments, I can understand how this might make sense. However rewards for winning creates an obscene bandwagoning situation as we have seen in each WvW tournament. Until they can fix the bandwagon issue, competitive play with higher rewards creates far more problems than it solves.

    Oddly they would be better off creating rewards for players willing to balance out matches not rewards for stacking.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    tl; dr version: We could get there but via a different route outside of just winning.

    We have seen in the past that rewards tied to winning will encourage stacking. So we throw out a system due to the way people used the system versus the merits of the system. So if you can't have it the way you want it, want it another way. This has been a topic that pops up over time but its worth the couple of minutes to readdress.

    As stated above, tying things to winning has the potential to lead to stacking and night capping. It might also might lead to burn out as different personality types might apply more or less energies to the actual result of the end of the week and therefore it becomes unfun. That said giving people things to work towards are a key element that define MMOs. Now done wrong these can also be called grinds. So instead of paying the server a better system would be to reward the individual. Right now we have a passive system that rewards people for time spent. A personalized reward system could work in tandem with that type of system.

    So for sake of discussion and to fit the the game concepts in that are already in the game, let's call it a WvW Bounty. Create a mechanic where WvWers can claim bounties for the week that are tied into activities that they would already be potentially doing anyway. So these are weekly activities that players would buy with either coin or badges and if completed would return those funds and additional reward chests. The more challenging the bounty the higher the price and the bigger reward. Uncompleted quests would result in a lose in that bounty fee to discourage people from gathering more than they can do. The bounties themselves would be activities people already do to advance WvW. Kill x players from server y. Kill x number of class y. Take x towers from blue. Escort x number of yaks. Capture and hold bloodlust for x time. Capture x number of sentries. Kill x number of invaders in your objectives. Kill x number of players on EBG, DBL, ABL, EoTM. Again include activities that players will perform anyway but give them goals to work on over the week. You could also throw in experimental ones to try if the pattern was seen where people weren't doing certain activities that they should be. Kill x number of Green players while outnumbered. Kill x number of invaders while defending a T0 keep. Take x number of towers while outnumbered. You could even have more dynamic ones, quests that become available when a server is trailing the lead server in score for example or quests targeting the server with the highest KDR.

    By going a personal reward system versus server you remove some of the issues with stacking and night capping but still get the same result of more reasons to do things that can promote winning without directly rewarding for just the win. Make it about the journey instead of the destination.

    Now as in previous threads people will point out that some players might try and kill trade to game the system, but that could be coded and or the bounties could include numbers that don't make that feasible and or include aspects in the bounties could be adjusted if people abuse the system. Take x number of towers becomes take x number of T2 and above towers.

    Personally there should also be weekly guild bounties that require the scribes to craft the writs to launch them during the week that reward the guild like a tiered community event. This would give guilds common things to work to towards and be more player drive content as well as act like a counter sync for more common materials. Ok, we want the quests to take 30 keeps, we need 30 standard catapult blueprints, x mithril, x elder wood and such, for a tier 1, a tier 2 version will require 60 catapults and we need to take 60 keeps, tier 3..... Harder quests cost more mats but pay better guild rewards for each level tier crafted to. If you made these guild bounties tradable on the TP you create more items that are of value for WvWers while they play the game mode as well as creating common goals.

    Anyway we have lots of options and its a matter of brainstorming to get to something that's more that just win the week. Good hunting!

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  • @joneirikb.7506

    My reasoning was not to make rewards prime reason to come play WvW.

    @Hannelore.8153 Described it bette,. The need to play PvE because of lack of rewards.

    I don't wanna lure PvE players to WvW, but rather see for hardcore WvW players, the need to farm PvE taken away.

    I play both with pleasure, but I know a lot that are purely here for WvW and see PvE grinding for gold and mats as a "necessary evil"

  • waxx.3619waxx.3619 Member ✭✭

    Why not just give cash? 1st place get 50g, 2nd place gets 15g, 3rd 2g

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2020

    @waxx.3619 said:
    Why not just give cash? 1st place get 50g, 2nd place gets 15g, 3rd 2g

    Why not give 3rd place 50g, 2nd place 15g and 1st place 2g?

    Nobody should argue with that since its been decreed that PPTers only care about PPT and guilds are only in it for fights.

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  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @waxx.3619 said:
    Why not just give cash? 1st place get 50g, 2nd place gets 15g, 3rd 2g

    This is exactly what they shouldn't do. This would encourage stacking more than anything else. It would also tear servers apart as people would long in for 1 minute and then not for the rest of the week and those remaining that would normally play have to cover all their numbers. We need a system that rewards based on participation throughout the the week. It's just what we have now doesn't quite cover it.

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  • waxx.3619waxx.3619 Member ✭✭

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    @waxx.3619 said:
    Why not just give cash? 1st place get 50g, 2nd place gets 15g, 3rd 2g

    This is exactly what they shouldn't do. This would encourage stacking more than anything else. It would also tear servers apart as people would long in for 1 minute and then not for the rest of the week and those remaining that would normally play have to cover all their numbers. We need a system that rewards based on participation throughout the the week. It's just what we have now doesn't quite cover it.

    But your server has to win to get maximum gold. If people are not participating and AFKing instead then their server is not winning. Sorry If I misunderstood your post.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @waxx.3619 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:

    @waxx.3619 said:
    Why not just give cash? 1st place get 50g, 2nd place gets 15g, 3rd 2g

    This is exactly what they shouldn't do. This would encourage stacking more than anything else. It would also tear servers apart as people would long in for 1 minute and then not for the rest of the week and those remaining that would normally play have to cover all their numbers. We need a system that rewards based on participation throughout the the week. It's just what we have now doesn't quite cover it.

    But your server has to win to get maximum gold. If people are not participating and AFKing instead then their server is not winning. Sorry If I misunderstood your post.

    No you understood, its the assumption that people can't win and still have AFKers, they can. The problem with out right winning is you will have people that try extra hard and then have bandwagoners that fill the ranks and do nothing to get the same reward for but a minute of time. That's why it needs to be earned as individuals over the week.

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  • Gorani.7205Gorani.7205 Member ✭✭✭

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    tl; dr version: We could get there but via a different route outside of just winning.

    I am all for "individual" over "server rewards" and want to know if you think that based on your suggestions, a less restrictive guild missions thing (that's already in game) could fill in that role?
    If guild missions would not require three people for every mission (on one server) they would be played a lot more and automatically create conflict vs. players, as one team on server X has "defend structure A" vs. a team from server Y that has to "take over structure A" on the same map. The would be people interested for all kinds of things, including escorting/killing dolyaks, aggressively taking and defending towers and camps.
    Wouldn't that be kind of what you have in mind?

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    People aren't willing to compete anymore,
    They are only willing to win.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    well if there are rewards for winning, you could also have decreased rewards for stacking and winning.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2020

    For people to care about winning points, point gameplay needs to also be fun. This used to be partly true in the past but unfortunately not anymore.

    What they need to do:

    • Increase upgrade times of keeps and castles to 40/80/160 and 60/120/240 dollies + Make packed dolyaks not count as 2 towards upgrade. Less upgraded stuff is in general more fun to attack because there is less siege and it takes less time if there are no defenders. And if there are more attackers than just that one overstacked server in the matchup, defending and logging in to WvW is more rewarding also.
    • Reduce claim buff all the way down to 20 or 30 stats each (Battles within keeps should be possible)
    • Fix siege vs siege damage (double it), defensive siege is useless ever since they made condis affect siege meaning not only attacking is relying on numbers but also defending. Make shield gen bubbles not block other siege fire but instead pulse damage reduction that also affects siege.
    • Buff wall/gate HP a bit
    • Remove relinkings (server linkings are fine) and fix transfer costs. If you're fighting for your server, not random 2 monthly mishmash, you will feel more dedicated and players will have clearer understanding of strong timezones
    • Remove incombat gliding. More epic moments as a reward for attacking. Pewpew and glide away with 100% survivability rate (even against roamers) shouldn't be option for gameplay style.
    • Reduce superspeed potency and upkeep so there are more strategies than "outman and train through opponent"
    • Nerf AoE boon application and condition cleanse cooldowns a bit.

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  • Dahkeus.8243Dahkeus.8243 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Totally agree with this. One of the reason I seldom touch WvW outside of needing a Gift of Battle or something like that is because what happens there really doesn't matter.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2020

    I think you've made this argument before, so let me respond and split it up into two points.

    @Threather.9354 said:
    For people to care about winning points, point gameplay needs to also be fun. This used to be partly true in the past but unfortunately not anymore.

    What they need to do:

    • Increase upgrade times of keeps and castles to 40/80/160 and 60/120/240 dollies + Make packed dolyaks not count as 2 towards upgrade. Less upgraded stuff is in general more fun to attack because there is less siege and it takes less time if there are no defenders. And if there are more attackers than just that one overstacked server in the matchup, defending and logging in to WvW is more rewarding also.
    • Reduce claim buff all the way down to 20 or 30 stats each (Battles within keeps should be possible)
    • Fix siege vs siege damage (double it), defensive siege is useless ever since they made condis affect siege meaning not only attacking is relying on numbers but also defending. Make shield gen bubbles not block other siege fire but instead pulse damage reduction that also affects siege.
    • Buff wall/gate HP a bit

    This stuff is all fine and well if the discussion was about PPT balance. However, how do you propose that this will motivate players to play more and make losing or winning feel more important?

    • Remove relinkings (server linkings are fine) and fix transfer costs. If you're fighting for your server, not random 2 monthly mishmash, you will feel more dedicated and players will have clearer understanding of strong timezones
    • Reduce superspeed potency and upkeep so there are more strategies than "outman and train through opponent"
    • Nerf AoE boon application and condition cleanse cooldowns a bit.

    Hopefully this does not come off more harsh than it is meant, but, with these arguments it makes me question if you've been away from a good server with guilds for too long because it feels like you're making the same mistake that newbies tend to do.

    If I just grab the last video posted on GotM, which is this one from Panq and tF from yesterday, let us look at what you claim:

    Melee, superspeed, boons and conditions?
    They're playing 2 support and 3 range (or in some clips 3 "support" with Warriors on healing gear who only rotate into melee to bubble), while the whole squad never ever really go into or cross through opponents unless they've already won and are just mopping up. They may be pushed hard by a sizably larger group that is sure of its chances to win at times but the video also shows how good enough groups deal with that to come out ontop. I would say that the video overall is representative of the meta from 15 to 50. That is the meta, the meta is ranged and it reflects the actual balance between melee and range. The idea that the meta would be melee is something you, like the inexperienced players who sometimes makes their first few posts on these forums, believe because you come up against much better groups that are so sure of their dominance that they will push early. That's not a balance problem, it's a "you" problem (or a population problem) and the actual balance suggests the direct opposite of what impression you have.

    So you are essentially asking for people to be able to do what they do in that video. There you have it, it is already the most popular way to play, by far.

    Making players even more bogged down in control conditions will not help you deal with better groups. That idea is self-delusional. It will just shift the balance further in favour of range, which already is dominant and will just push melee-damage classes and builds further away from viability and balance.

    Transfer/relinks:
    That goes for the overarching argument that I've seen you make a couple of times lately too: Making the servers even more locked down to transfers. That won't let groups recruit or make guilds and commanders stay on your server. Most guilds move so they can recruit. They move to get away from players that clog up their recruitment pool to leech their content. If you lock transfering down more that is not going to help the guilds recruit and stay alive. That will make them able to recruit even less and it is already one of the #1 problems with content in this game: That it is difficult for guilds to recruit or for friends to play together. What you're suggesting will just make more guilds die, more players quit, less commanders lead, less content be shared to pickups and more delusion run rampant among players who are not members of guilds, who can not do the things you may see in the video and create no content to speak of. It reads like you, from a server-perspective, want to force guilds to stay with you but that's just delusional, goes against their will and their needs to stay alive and simply won't pan out well for the game mode.

    I assume that is the direct opposite of what you are trying to achieve.

  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    Some days, some nights
    Some live, some die
    In the way of the samurai
    Some fight, some bleed
    Sun up to sun down
    The sons of a battlecry

    -- Nujabes --

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    It just encourages more people to bandwagon for free stuff, as if bandwagoning wasn't already a worthwhile incentive for a majority of players who just want to ktrain.

    It's not like people who want a PvP experience are going in for the loot, anyways. Fix the balancing and numbers will rise. Fix the boonball and AoE bomb effectiveness and the smaller scale fights will ensue with larger engagements demanding more tactics and leadership rather than stack and smack.

    Nothing else is gonna make this mode get more players. The PvP audience recognizes the profession balance and design is horrible and the people wanting a content grind have no incentive to bother because PvE is always gonna be the best for that, else there's no point in making the content.

    Unfortunately what ANet missed the boat on is that there's a massive amount of untapped players who want just PvP in the PC gaming sphere. See: LoL.
    That was their original idea for the game with combat visibility and with loot selling for Karma and loot in WvW/sPvP rewards, but they abandoned ship because ten billion new currencies forcing you to play the game their way with the carrot on the stick makes more money from their PvE base than otherwise.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2020

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    I think you've made this argument before, so let me respond and split it up into two points.

    @Threather.9354 said:
    For people to care about winning points, point gameplay needs to also be fun. This used to be partly true in the past but unfortunately not anymore.

    What they need to do:

    • Increase upgrade times of keeps and castles to 40/80/160 and 60/120/240 dollies + Make packed dolyaks not count as 2 towards upgrade. Less upgraded stuff is in general more fun to attack because there is less siege and it takes less time if there are no defenders. And if there are more attackers than just that one overstacked server in the matchup, defending and logging in to WvW is more rewarding also.
    • Reduce claim buff all the way down to 20 or 30 stats each (Battles within keeps should be possible)
    • Fix siege vs siege damage (double it), defensive siege is useless ever since they made condis affect siege meaning not only attacking is relying on numbers but also defending. Make shield gen bubbles not block other siege fire but instead pulse damage reduction that also affects siege.
    • Buff wall/gate HP a bit

    This stuff is all fine and well if the discussion was about PPT balance. However, how do you propose that this will motivate players to play more and make losing or winning feel more important?

    • Remove relinkings (server linkings are fine) and fix transfer costs. If you're fighting for your server, not random 2 monthly mishmash, you will feel more dedicated and players will have clearer understanding of strong timezones
    • Reduce superspeed potency and upkeep so there are more strategies than "outman and train through opponent"
    • Nerf AoE boon application and condition cleanse cooldowns a bit.

    Hopefully this does not come off more harsh than it is meant, but, with these arguments it makes me question if you've been away from a good server with guilds for too long because it feels like you're making the same mistake that newbies tend to do.

    If I just grab the last video posted on GotM, which is this one from Panq and tF from yesterday, let us look at what you claim:

    Melee, superspeed, boons and conditions?
    They're playing 2 support and 3 range (or in some clips 3 "support" with Warriors on healing gear who only rotate into melee to bubble), while the whole squad never ever really go into or cross through opponents unless they've already won and are just mopping up. They may be pushed hard by a sizably larger group that is sure of its chances to win at times but the video also shows how good enough groups deal with that to come out ontop. I would say that the video overall is representative of the meta from 15 to 50. That is the meta, the meta is ranged and it reflects the actual balance between melee and range. The idea that the meta would be melee is something you, like the inexperienced players who sometimes makes their first few posts on these forums, believe because you come up against much better groups that are so sure of their dominance that they will push early. That's not a balance problem, it's a "you" problem (or a population problem) and the actual balance suggests the direct opposite of what impression you have.

    So you are essentially asking for people to be able to do what they do in that video. There you have it, it is already the most popular way to play, by far.

    Making players even more bogged down in control conditions will not help you deal with better groups. That idea is self-delusional. It will just shift the balance further in favour of range, which already is dominant and will just push melee-damage classes and builds further away from viability and balance.

    Transfer/relinks:
    That goes for the overarching argument that I've seen you make a couple of times lately too: Making the servers even more locked down to transfers. That won't let groups recruit or make guilds and commanders stay on your server. Most guilds move so they can recruit. They move to get away from players that clog up their recruitment pool to leech their content. If you lock transfering down more that is not going to help the guilds recruit and stay alive. That will make them able to recruit even less and it is already one of the #1 problems with content in this game: That it is difficult for guilds to recruit or for friends to play together. What you're suggesting will just make more guilds die, more players quit, less commanders lead, less content be shared to pickups and more delusion run rampant among players who are not members of guilds, who can not do the things you may see in the video and create no content to speak of. It reads like you, from a server-perspective, want to force guilds to stay with you but that's just delusional, goes against their will and their needs to stay alive and simply won't pan out well for the game mode.

    I assume that is the direct opposite of what you are trying to achieve.

    I think were looking at wrong video because the one you linked me has very little conditions, chills and cripples (soft CC) are made irrelevant by scrapper in party, stability upkeep is permanent and there no group has actual positional control of an area, just cooldown waiting to have superspeed so that cooldowns and distances are redundant. This applies to fights within the keeps. So there is absolutely 0 positional judgement to make up for mediocrity of your group, just short 5 second cooldown management. That is issue with people like you that put things in boxes of either ranged gameplay or melee gameplay when the actual question you should ask how much factor is interactive gameplay, Cooldown management and decisionmaking affect outcome in current meta.

    Current meta just summarizes shortly as this: learn your class while there being 0 space for in-combat-creativity and teamwork for in current combat system. Of course people that are not in position of power, like casual pugs and guild raiders instead of raid leaders, scouts and commanders, might not fathom the lack of meaningful decisions in this meta. Like the fact that your healthbar+boons are either full or empty is obvious testimony, which also you should be able to see, of a screwed meta that has very little adaptibility and skill involved.

    It is interesting how you took from my comment that I wanted to lock transferring down when all I wanted was to make population balancing decent (to account for total population of main+link) so servers (and guild content to some extent) aren't completely destroyed every 2 months due to bad linkings. You can focus all you want on things like relinkings actually help to recruit players but its not like guilds already don't transfer around every 2 or 4 months due to bad population in their current server, they could do so very well in my suggested system as well just they could choose not to transfer once finding a server they really like. I do agree that their recruitment pool will obviously be larger in higher tier servers even though it will stay more constant, but they will also have more time to convince people to join them.

    Nowhere did I say I wanted to make servers more locked down for transfers, what I wanted is to make less full servers by fixing obvious mistake in their current population calculation algorithm that forces guilds to be on links instead of having variety in what kind of tier to chose for preferred kind of gameplay and scale while having to build some kind of community with rest of their perceived home server instead of perceiving every outsider as scrubs due to 2-monthly reset. Obviously there would still be main servers that are medium status, if anything over 500 gems is too much for you with the current reward system where WvW income is crazy compared to old times, but they would typically have less players and be in more CPU-friendly tiers so you would also contribute towards fixing lack of population over there.

    Tbf I don't see whats so hard about understanding the miscomings of current meta and server system. These things are fairly obvious if you compare it to memories of community, group play and commanding you have during PoF, HoT and pre-HoT.

    Btw people play for fun and to "feel they found their place" so increasing rewards and whatever is not solution to make them enjoy PPT more. Making them feel like they're meaningful is. Thats why promoting weaker groups options against stronger groups is important. Thats why increasing wall hp, fixing siege balance and upgrade times to give options for different actions instead of just the stronger server at the timezone is essential. Like if you build a catapult, there should be a counter and there should be a counter to the counter and ultimately one with faster actions and thinking should come on top with numbers/gameplay skill mattering but not being only thing that matters. But these intearctions are obsolete in this meta leaving people in desperation as they lose their keeps without being able to even slow enemy down. Same applies to attacking things, if almost everything is T3 always, your options are very very bad, and either you enjoy the one kind of active gameplay (bashing your head against T3 objectives and feeding bags or getting too strong for your own good) that current balancing promotes or you feel meaningless like a fly. losing and winning only matters if you put some effort in and if the game is more fun and you felt like you have more impact about the outcome, you will put more effort in. In real life there was even a research where people would have been paid to start exercising and it had no impact, monetary rewards just isn't a good motivation to care as it just doesn't fix the things that fit in your comfortzone.

    Riformed - On break from commanding
    Diamond Legend
    ~Waiting for them to fix WvW~

  • KeyOrion.9506KeyOrion.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    Play for fun? WvW was capture the flag. If all your going to do is fight, you can close down WvW and go straight to GvG. Seriously.