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Trapper Rune is still in the game?

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  • @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @Zephoid.4263 said:
    (...)
    Without the rune, DH is straight garbage teir again. It was on par with core engy and chrono for lack of viable builds. Lack of swiftness anywhere relevant in guard skillset makes Lynx necessary, which completely kills build diversity.
    (...)

    I am always confused by people arguing like this.

    If this is true, then DH can never get buffed without making it OP, because of the rune.

    Change/delete the rune, then buff the rest of DH - slightly, noone likes passive trap bots, but the pushing/pulling playstyle was fun and challenging. This also enables more build diversity, because the rune is less of a straight up addon to some few burst builds.

    I agree 100%. If dh is viable because of trapper rune and gbage without it that clearly indicates not only are their sever problems with the dh spec but also with trapper runes.
    Trapper ruins 6th bonus needs a rework or hard nerf and if needed dh some buffs in area to make it viable, hopefully in a manner that doesn't promote a skill less playstyle as is trap dh currently.

    "B-but Trapper Rune has remained unchanged for years kwkwkwkwkw."

    Yeah, not like other changes happened that indirectly and massively buffed the rune, LEL. The most skill-less, monotone and low risk promoting rune.

    But we get it, Anet and CMC. You hate roamers, you hate timing-reliant risk/reward builds.

  • love those rand posts:

    stealths is ok but if someone else gets acces to it it becomes OP... mmmm OK

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Honestly all those DH underpowered claims. I guess Meditrapper never was a thing? I remember playing it, I still see people playing it. (Mes afaik) Was decent and fun.

    An ICD won't kill the build but make decisions something to value upon.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • @Shao.7236 said:
    Honestly all those DH underpowered claims. I guess Meditrapper never was a thing? I remember playing it, I still see people playing it. (Mes afaik) Was decent and fun.

    An ICD won't kill the build but make decisions something to value upon.

    That’s what the build need to stop being braindead go to steal for escape or land your damage.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Honestly all those DH underpowered claims. I guess Meditrapper never was a thing? I remember playing it, I still see people playing it. (Mes afaik) Was decent and fun.

    An ICD won't kill the build but make decisions something to value upon.

    Meditrapper was a thing in an entirely different meta. It was one of my main picks during the late HoT era, I remember how PoF dropped midseason (yes they released a whole expansion in the middle of a PvP season) and that was the last time meditrapper was meta. Scourge took over the area denial role, and there was excessive amount of stability and stunbreaks flying around. Not to mention reflects became common because of deadeyes.
    DH currently is underpowered. Go ahead and play power DH with Lynx rune instead of Trappers. It's definitely possible, but it's like playing staff ele or core engineer... of course you can but why would you? Do you hate yourself that much?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    give it ICD and make it work in combat only
    1 it stops them from stealth ganking if they are not in combat but also allows them to stack traps on nodes that they are capping

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So based on forum posts we should:

    • Remove Trapper rune to balance DH

    • Remove Resistance rune to balance Herald

    • Remove Speed rune to balance Renegade

    Should we throw Soldier rune in there? It would hit Tempest, Healbreaker and Core shout guard in one fell swoop. That aught to tone down sustain.

    The game will be balanced in no time at this rate. Runes can't carry builds if there are no runes left.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @megilandil.7506 said:
    love those rand posts:

    stealths is ok but if someone else gets acces to it it becomes OP... mmmm OK

    Yeah cuz thiefs burst out stealth is anywhere comparable to a burn dh using trapper, gimmie a break. If thief had that burst out stealth everyone would cry so hard lol. Dh was designed to have less mobility than trapper rune gives it and isn't designed to have access to stealth, that is the difference and why now that dh is using it for its braindead cheese build it makes the class stupid. People can go on and defend guards just like necros defend lich and cores sustain yet there's a reason they are the fotm classes. Braindead cheese low effort good reward gbage. Most matches have two guard or necros on each team....for a reason. Literally the same handful of classes/builds are seen over and over cuz gw2 players for the most part regardless of their main scramble to the fotm broken classes to spam em, pvp in this game lol can't surprise anyone its almost dead.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2021

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    So based on forum posts we should:

    • Remove Trapper rune to balance DH

    • Remove Resistance rune to balance Herald

    • Remove Speed rune to balance Renegade

    Should we throw Soldier rune in there? It would hit Tempest, Healbreaker and Core shout guard in one fell swoop. That aught to tone down sustain.

    The game will be balanced in no time at this rate. Runes can't carry builds if there are no runes left.

    The problem is how th 6th bonus of some runes are absolutely broken OP. Just compare the 6th bonus on something like Rune of the Water: AoE (small range though) condicleanse after using a healing skill on a 20 seconds ICD... to 3 seconds of stealth and superspeed on trap usage with no ICD... what? They are not even in the same ballpark. Not to mention trap is a type of skill that guardians have access to... which of course fits perfectly. The brave defenders of Tyria, using the powers of light, justice and stealth.

    Rune of Speed turns swiftness into superspeed. How do you justify an easy access 66% speedboost when some classes are designed and balanced around being slow? Even if it's not broken currently, I don't want a necro running around with a 66% speedbuff. You want to play necro? Deal with being slow.

    I don't see problem with the rest though. I mean Resistance and Soldier runes are actually useful(unlike 90% of the runesets we get to choose from), so I get why some people are whinging about them, but they are not over the top.

    My point is, sometimes removal of a thing can be a good thing. Especially when the studio is working on the next x-pac and can't be bothered with reworks.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Honestly all those DH underpowered claims. I guess Meditrapper never was a thing? I remember playing it, I still see people playing it. (Mes afaik) Was decent and fun.

    An ICD won't kill the build but make decisions something to value upon.

    Meditrapper was a thing in an entirely different meta. It was one of my main picks during the late HoT era, I remember how PoF dropped midseason (yes they released a whole expansion in the middle of a PvP season) and that was the last time meditrapper was meta. Scourge took over the area denial role, and there was excessive amount of stability and stunbreaks flying around. Not to mention reflects became common because of deadeyes.
    DH currently is underpowered. Go ahead and play power DH with Lynx rune instead of Trappers. It's definitely possible, but it's like playing staff ele or core engineer... of course you can but why would you? Do you hate yourself that much?

    Don't recall Meditrapper to be an AoE denial type of role, more like a 1v1 sidenodder with some form of control normally.

    Doesn't have to be meta to be viable, it's honestly still good and fun to play on, the main source of damage which is Test of Faith was not even touched in term of damage either. The flow is relatively the same so really, it's just as good as it was back then because everything was toned down. Sure, it can be more effort to play on but that's the fun part of it. Are reflects that much of an issue? Why is Renegade Shortbow not having that problem then? I think it doesn't really matter if you manage projectiles right.

    Asking me if I hate myself that much? I play Core Revenant on a daily basis in several ways, not counting other Herald or Renegade variants with a great deal of success.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    So based on forum posts we should:

    • Remove Trapper rune to balance DH

    • Remove Resistance rune to balance Herald

    • Remove Speed rune to balance Renegade

    Should we throw Soldier rune in there? It would hit Tempest, Healbreaker and Core shout guard in one fell swoop. That aught to tone down sustain.

    The game will be balanced in no time at this rate. Runes can't carry builds if there are no runes left.

    The problem is how th 6th bonus of some runes are absolutely broken OP. Just compare the 6th bonus on something like Rune of the Water: AoE (small range though) condicleanse after using a healing skill on a 20 seconds ICD... to 3 seconds of stealth and superspeed on trap usage with no ICD... what? They are not even in the same ballpark. Not to mention trap is a type of skill that guardians have access to... which of course fits perfectly. The brave defenders of Tyria, using the powers of light, justice and stealth.

    Rune of Speed turns swiftness into superspeed. How do you justify an easy access 66% speedboost when some classes are designed and balanced around being slow? Even if it's not broken currently, I don't want a necro running around with a 66% speedbuff. You want to play necro? Deal with being slow.

    I don't see problem with the rest though. I mean Resistance and Soldier runes are actually useful(unlike 90% of the runesets we get to choose from), so I get why some people are whinging about them, but they are not over the top.

    My point is, sometimes removal of a thing can be a good thing. Especially when the studio is working on the next x-pac and can't be bothered with reworks.

    Removing something can be a good thing, but it should always be a last resort.

    Imagine if doctors treated patients the same way Anet does balance.

    "So doc, I stubbed my toe this morning... I think it might be bruised."

    "Yup, that's gonna have to come off"

    "I beg your pardon--"

    "Nurse, grab the Gilgi saw!"

    Whether they're busy or not is no excuse for poor balance. It's a large corporation not a small indie dev team. If they wanted to devote resources to PvP they could. 1 or 2 people spending 1 day out of the week work over PvP issues would more than suffice. Balance would be slow, but they could at least ensure patches were of higher quality.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2021

    aw man removing runes and amulets, and dumbing down the game please guys stop

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • @Shao.7236 said:
    Honestly all those DH underpowered claims. I guess Meditrapper never was a thing? I remember playing it, I still see people playing it. (Mes afaik) Was decent and fun.

    An ICD won't kill the build but make decisions something to value upon.

    Meditrapper was fine before the rework. Slightly on the weaker side, but playable into a lot of comps. I was an avid player of it, and enjoyed great a many hours on it.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:
    aw man removing runes and amulets, and dumbing down the game please guys stop

    Keep the rune, remove the stealth.

    The class that makes the most use of it should not have stealth

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) nom nom nom🥔
    Fun Daredevil

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2021

    @Axl.8924 said:
    aw man removing runes and amulets, and dumbing down the game please guys stop

    While the thread sounds like it asks for being deleting, the majority agree's to adjust. Giving it an ICD ain't much for Anet to work with and it'll put forth more thinking into the build rather than outright deleting or keeping it stupidly easy to use as it is.

    May be strange Anet made such Rune, I can see why as using Traps is a game of constant repositioning but without the ICD, it definitely goes beyond what Anet wanted to do.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2021

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    So based on forum posts we should:

    • Remove Trapper rune to balance DH

    • Remove Resistance rune to balance Herald

    • Remove Speed rune to balance Renegade

    Should we throw Soldier rune in there? It would hit Tempest, Healbreaker and Core shout guard in one fell swoop. That aught to tone down sustain.

    The game will be balanced in no time at this rate. Runes can't carry builds if there are no runes left.

    The problem is how th 6th bonus of some runes are absolutely broken OP. Just compare the 6th bonus on something like Rune of the Water: AoE (small range though) condicleanse after using a healing skill on a 20 seconds ICD... to 3 seconds of stealth and superspeed on trap usage with no ICD... what? They are not even in the same ballpark. Not to mention trap is a type of skill that guardians have access to... which of course fits perfectly. The brave defenders of Tyria, using the powers of light, justice and stealth.

    Rune of Speed turns swiftness into superspeed. How do you justify an easy access 66% speedboost when some classes are designed and balanced around being slow? Even if it's not broken currently, I don't want a necro running around with a 66% speedbuff. You want to play necro? Deal with being slow.

    I don't see problem with the rest though. I mean Resistance and Soldier runes are actually useful(unlike 90% of the runesets we get to choose from), so I get why some people are whinging about them, but they are not over the top.

    My point is, sometimes removal of a thing can be a good thing. Especially when the studio is working on the next x-pac and can't be bothered with reworks.

    Removing something can be a good thing, but it should always be a last resort.

    Imagine if doctors treated patients the same way Anet does balance.

    "So doc, I stubbed my toe this morning... I think it might be bruised."

    "Yup, that's gonna have to come off"

    "I beg your pardon--"

    "Nurse, grab the Gilgi saw!"

    Whether they're busy or not is no excuse for poor balance. It's a large corporation not a small indie dev team. If they wanted to devote resources to PvP they could. 1 or 2 people spending 1 day out of the week work over PvP issues would more than suffice. Balance would be slow, but they could at least ensure patches were of higher quality.

    When your little finger has a cancerous growth, taking time to weigh your options puts you at risk for metastasis. Trapper Rune is not a bruise, it's one of the main reason players leave the gamemode in drowes. If you take too long to balance, there will be no point in balancing. You're not operating on a dead patient.

    To be fair, every time something becomes popular and strong in PvP it becomes the new "main reason why players are leaving". I've heard the same thing about condi rev, renegade, nade holo, condi thief...

    The best things I could compare to a cancerous growth would be gamebreaking bugs, bots, exploits, cheating/hacking, wintrading. These are the kinds of things that need to be dealt with immediately. (And unfortunately, many of them haven't).

    The problem in this context that we're too quick to call for an excision before we've even done a proper diagnosis. That mole growing on your foot might be benign, it sure would suck to lose an entire foot to something that would have caused you a few inconveniences at worse, but enough of the medical analogies.

    Others have suggested ways that these runes can be balanced without the need to remove them. Whether it be an ICD, rework, or other tweaks.

    With their limited man power in mind, the easiest solution would be to give the rune an ICD. If it still proves to be problematic despite attempts to balance it, then removal should be considered.

    Also them working on EoD is not an excuse, it's a reason. I abhore how they just let the MMO with the best combat system rot away like this, but hey, I'm not the one giving the devs next months payckeck so... all I can do is casually boo from the sidelines.

    Sucks when the average player seems to care 10x more about the game than the creators (specifically the higher ups) do, but yeah. It's about all we can do.

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Honestly all those DH underpowered claims. I guess Meditrapper never was a thing? I remember playing it, I still see people playing it. (Mes afaik) Was decent and fun.

    An ICD won't kill the build but make decisions something to value upon.

    Meditrapper was a thing in an entirely different meta. It was one of my main picks during the late HoT era, I remember how PoF dropped midseason (yes they released a whole expansion in the middle of a PvP season) and that was the last time meditrapper was meta. Scourge took over the area denial role, and there was excessive amount of stability and stunbreaks flying around. Not to mention reflects became common because of deadeyes.
    DH currently is underpowered. Go ahead and play power DH with Lynx rune instead of Trappers. It's definitely possible, but it's like playing staff ele or core engineer... of course you can but why would you? Do you hate yourself that much?

    Don't recall Meditrapper to be an AoE denial type of role, more like a 1v1 sidenodder with some form of control normally.

    Doesn't have to be meta to be viable, it's honestly still good and fun to play on, the main source of damage which is Test of Faith was not even touched in term of damage either. The flow is relatively the same so really, it's just as good as it was back then because everything was toned down. Sure, it can be more effort to play on but that's the fun part of it. Are reflects that much of an issue? Why is Renegade Shortbow not having that problem then? I think it doesn't really matter if you manage projectiles right.

    Asking me if I hate myself that much? I play Core Revenant on a daily basis in several ways, not counting other Herald or Renegade variants with a great deal of success.

    No, it's not the same as it was. Trueshot has double the cooldown. Deflecting shot no longer deals damage, has an additional. 75s cast time and half the travel speed.
    Spear or justice has 3 times the cast speed.
    Sword 2 lost 50% of its initial damage. Smite condition and lesser smite condition lost 95% (yes, 95%) of its damage.
    Judges intervention lost 66% of its dmg. Hunters ward became backloaded.
    Test of faith received an internal cooldown.
    Traps no longer daze. Hunters determination got removed from the game.

    Should I keep going?

    I'm not arguing wether or not the class is strong or weak, I'm just saying that your claim of "its just as good as it was relative to everything else" is false.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Honestly all those DH underpowered claims. I guess Meditrapper never was a thing? I remember playing it, I still see people playing it. (Mes afaik) Was decent and fun.

    An ICD won't kill the build but make decisions something to value upon.

    Meditrapper was a thing in an entirely different meta. It was one of my main picks during the late HoT era, I remember how PoF dropped midseason (yes they released a whole expansion in the middle of a PvP season) and that was the last time meditrapper was meta. Scourge took over the area denial role, and there was excessive amount of stability and stunbreaks flying around. Not to mention reflects became common because of deadeyes.
    DH currently is underpowered. Go ahead and play power DH with Lynx rune instead of Trappers. It's definitely possible, but it's like playing staff ele or core engineer... of course you can but why would you? Do you hate yourself that much?

    Don't recall Meditrapper to be an AoE denial type of role, more like a 1v1 sidenodder with some form of control normally.

    Doesn't have to be meta to be viable, it's honestly still good and fun to play on, the main source of damage which is Test of Faith was not even touched in term of damage either. The flow is relatively the same so really, it's just as good as it was back then because everything was toned down. Sure, it can be more effort to play on but that's the fun part of it. Are reflects that much of an issue? Why is Renegade Shortbow not having that problem then? I think it doesn't really matter if you manage projectiles right.

    Asking me if I hate myself that much? I play Core Revenant on a daily basis in several ways, not counting other Herald or Renegade variants with a great deal of success.

    No, it's not the same as it was. Trueshot has double the cooldown. Deflecting shot no longer deals damage, has an additional. 75s cast time and half the travel speed.
    Spear or justice has 3 times the cast speed.
    Sword 2 lost 50% of its initial damage. Smite condition and lesser smite condition lost 95% (yes, 95%) of its damage.
    Judges intervention lost 66% of its dmg. Hunters ward became backloaded.
    Test of faith received an internal cooldown.
    Traps no longer daze. Hunters determination got removed from the game.

    Should I keep going?

    I'm not arguing wether or not the class is strong or weak, I'm just saying that your claim of "its just as good as it was relative to everything else" is false.

    Yeah sure.. Let's point out everything alone in a vacuum while forgetting that everything in the game also was affected. You can't be for real either, caring about some of the big cheese of it that was fixed too, test of faith having an internal cooldown? Must have been carrying people back in the days, because I picked it up again and it's not really changing the pace at all.

    Like said, relative to everything else right now. It's fine and the word should be going by.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The problem is less trapper rune and more:
    1. Reveal on hit for stealth is a bad mechanic for PvP
    2. DH has two unevadeable CC pulls, which combined with Reveal-on-hit makes for uninteractive and unskillful "spam AoEs " gameplay

    If you fixed stealth and removed unevadeables ( No skill needs to be unevadeable unless you are trash. Learn to count your opponents dodges ) trapper rune would be fine.

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    The problem is less trapper rune and more:
    1. Reveal on hit for stealth is a bad mechanic for PvP
    2. DH has two unevadeable CC pulls, which combined with Reveal-on-hit makes for uninteractive and unskillful "spam AoEs " gameplay

    If you fixed stealth and removed unevadeables ( No skill needs to be unevadeable unless you are trash. Learn to count your opponents dodges ) trapper rune would be fine.

    Dh has no unevadable pulls.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Honestly all those DH underpowered claims. I guess Meditrapper never was a thing? I remember playing it, I still see people playing it. (Mes afaik) Was decent and fun.

    An ICD won't kill the build but make decisions something to value upon.

    Meditrapper was a thing in an entirely different meta. It was one of my main picks during the late HoT era, I remember how PoF dropped midseason (yes they released a whole expansion in the middle of a PvP season) and that was the last time meditrapper was meta. Scourge took over the area denial role, and there was excessive amount of stability and stunbreaks flying around. Not to mention reflects became common because of deadeyes.
    DH currently is underpowered. Go ahead and play power DH with Lynx rune instead of Trappers. It's definitely possible, but it's like playing staff ele or core engineer... of course you can but why would you? Do you hate yourself that much?

    Don't recall Meditrapper to be an AoE denial type of role, more like a 1v1 sidenodder with some form of control normally.

    Doesn't have to be meta to be viable, it's honestly still good and fun to play on, the main source of damage which is Test of Faith was not even touched in term of damage either. The flow is relatively the same so really, it's just as good as it was back then because everything was toned down. Sure, it can be more effort to play on but that's the fun part of it. Are reflects that much of an issue? Why is Renegade Shortbow not having that problem then? I think it doesn't really matter if you manage projectiles right.

    Asking me if I hate myself that much? I play Core Revenant on a daily basis in several ways, not counting other Herald or Renegade variants with a great deal of success.

    No, it's not the same as it was. Trueshot has double the cooldown. Deflecting shot no longer deals damage, has an additional. 75s cast time and half the travel speed.
    Spear or justice has 3 times the cast speed.
    Sword 2 lost 50% of its initial damage. Smite condition and lesser smite condition lost 95% (yes, 95%) of its damage.
    Judges intervention lost 66% of its dmg. Hunters ward became backloaded.
    Test of faith received an internal cooldown.
    Traps no longer daze. Hunters determination got removed from the game.

    Should I keep going?

    I'm not arguing wether or not the class is strong or weak, I'm just saying that your claim of "its just as good as it was relative to everything else" is false.

    Yeah sure.. Let's point out everything alone in a vacuum while forgetting that everything in the game also was affected. You can't be for real either, caring about some of the big cheese of it that was fixed too, test of faith having an internal cooldown? Must have been carrying people back in the days, because I picked it up again and it's not really changing the pace at all.

    Like said, relative to everything else right now. It's fine and the word should be going by.

    I didn't point out things in a vacuum. I simply listed the changes that has slowed down the pace of the class immensely.

    Also, Valor (medi) dh doesn't have enough damage to kill a single duelist right now. To have the slightest kill potential you have to drop Valor for radiance, in which case it loses all sustain.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    The problem is less trapper rune and more:
    1. Reveal on hit for stealth is a bad mechanic for PvP
    2. DH has two unevadeable CC pulls, which combined with Reveal-on-hit makes for uninteractive and unskillful "spam AoEs " gameplay

    If you fixed stealth and removed unevadeables ( No skill needs to be unevadeable unless you are trash. Learn to count your opponents dodges ) trapper rune would be fine.

    Dh has no unevadable pulls.

    Hunters Verdict is unevadeable, and anyone who can't land SoJ from stealth is literally the worst DH in the entire game.

    Dragons maw is practically unevadeable. The skill itself is technically evadeable, but the AoE CC it creates when triggered is not. Thing is, evading through the trap triggers it. So the skill is for all intensive purposes unevadeable. You can also buffer/precast the skill into a teleport to instant-cast it on someone from long range -dodging this will not work even with godlike reflexes since you will still trigger the unevadeable AoE.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Math.5123 Test of faith still hit for 5k on Marauders, it's not unreasonably hard to get multiple hits along the other skills either and that's without Radiance. It's above the typical burst you see in the game of around 10k before people evade randomly and that keeps it in a good place.

    Deflecting Shot being slower is debatable as a bad thing, before it was pretty instant, more reasons to get good at it because instant is annoyingly cheesy for the game. All CC's lost damage so nothing new here for the pace of everything else.

    Never found a reason to cheese my way at it with Judge Intervention as it gets boring, feels like everyone want that in their build while Signet of Judgement is equally good over time and after for the sustain part of things, plays at a lower CD for the stunbreak. I get it. Must jump on people by port, trap, true shot, deflecting shot at the same time but because that one takes longer doesn't mean you can't swap and shield push instead, there's other ways to combine Deflecting Shot reliably regardless.

    Afaik having to put more effort into it often means "slowed down" these days but I'll never agree to it, bringing a bunker in the topic won't have me change my mind either. Have yet to see one survive a proper not key mash 1v2, the moment I'll be seeing bunkers like Chrono/Scrapper that can sit directly on node like in 2016 then I'll express some concerns.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    The problem is less trapper rune and more:
    1. Reveal on hit for stealth is a bad mechanic for PvP
    2. DH has two unevadeable CC pulls, which combined with Reveal-on-hit makes for uninteractive and unskillful "spam AoEs " gameplay

    If you fixed stealth and removed unevadeables ( No skill needs to be unevadeable unless you are trash. Learn to count your opponents dodges ) trapper rune would be fine.

    Dh has no unevadable pulls.

    Hunters Verdict is unevadeable, and anyone who can't land SoJ from stealth is literally the worst DH in the entire game.

    Dragons maw is practically unevadeable. The skill itself is technically evadeable, but the AoE CC it creates when triggered is not. Thing is, evading through the trap triggers it. So the skill is for all intensive purposes unevadeable. You can also buffer/precast the skill into a teleport to instant-cast it on someone from long range -dodging this will not work even with godlike reflexes since you will still trigger the unevadeable AoE.

    First of all, if a dh is using his Spear. He loses all the damage from SoJ, which is about 90% of the damage on burn dh. So you should be happy if he uses it. Means you won the fight.

    You realize you can leap through the trap, run through with a block, with one stack of aegis, dodgeroll through, or simply stab it.

    I'm not defending trapper rune or burn dh. But you're targeting the wrong areas.

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @Math.5123 Test of faith still hit for 5k on Marauders, it's not unreasonably hard to get multiple hits along the other skills either and that's without Radiance. It's above the typical burst you see in the game of around 10k before people evade randomly and that keeps it in a good place.

    Deflecting Shot being slower is debatable as a bad thing, before it was pretty instant, more reasons to get good at it because instant is annoyingly cheesy for the game. All CC's lost damage so nothing new here for the pace of everything else.

    Never found a reason to cheese my way at it with Judge Intervention as it gets boring, feels like everyone want that in their build while Signet of Judgement is equally good over time and after for the sustain part of things, plays at a lower CD for the stunbreak. I get it. Must jump on people by port, trap, true shot, deflecting shot at the same time but because that one takes longer doesn't mean you can't swap and shield push instead, there's other ways to combine Deflecting Shot reliably regardless.

    Afaik having to put more effort into it often means "slowed down" these days but I'll never agree to it, bringing a bunker in the topic won't have me change my mind either. Have yet to see one survive a proper not key mash 1v2, the moment I'll be seeing bunkers like Chrono/Scrapper that can sit directly on node like in 2016 then I'll express some concerns.

    You never used JI for the damage or the stunbreak. You used it for mobilty and chase potential, and the extra healing and fury from monks focus. Marauder dh won't kill a scrapper, weaver or Renegade even if they unbind their dodge.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021

    @Starbreaker.6507 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    the best is when the dh leaves a full trap bomb on point then walks to the other side of them map and kills you when you try to cap said point. cuz skill boys.

    Yep, totally the DH's fault that people are oblivious and waddle onto a point thinking it would be a 100% clear.

    Too bad demanding nerfs doesn't make the remaining playerbase any smarter

    @Math.5123 said:
    Dh has no unevadable pulls.

    Just felt like quoteposting this because it was funny.

    Also, while the second one is just untrue, being killed by traps while DH is on the other side of the map is not a problem with trapper rune.

    The "Balance" is a fantasy -- another mortal superstition.

  • @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    being killed by traps while DH is on the other side of the map is not a problem with trapper rune.

    thats true. i wasn't talking about trapper rune.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Starbreaker.6507 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    the best is when the dh leaves a full trap bomb on point then walks to the other side of them map and kills you when you try to cap said point. cuz skill boys.

    Yep, totally the DH's fault that people are oblivious and waddle onto a point thinking it would be a 100% clear.

    Too bad demanding nerfs doesn't make the remaining playerbase any smarter

    @Math.5123 said:
    Dh has no unevadable pulls.

    Just felt like quoteposting this because it was funny.

    Also, while the second one is just untrue, being killed by traps while DH is on the other side of the map is not a problem with trapper rune.

    It's not untrue. You can dodge the first application of Spear. It has almost a second cast time. There is no excuse to ever being hit by it.
    If you somehow managed to get tethered, you can counter it with stab, stunbreak when the pull happens or running out of range to break the tether. It does not function like magebane tether.
    Just because you choose to ignore all the ways to counter a skill doesn't make it good.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021

    @Math.5123 But what really kills anything that bunks outside the overblown meta builds, it's even debatable if they'd die by anything at all 1v1 as it requires teamwork to do so, those can still be fought on node that belongs to you for a long time.

    You're not the only one here and because you ain't viable doing that exclusively doesn't mean everything else is. Your view is WAY too narrow on the matter.

    For mention that Elementalists be it Weaver or Tempest absolutely gets destroyed by Power damage the moment their flow is broken, that's not just for Meditrapper but anything. Power DH still breaks hard through Light Armor.

    Also, why do you care so much for chasing potential if you got the node, you won the fight. To think people care about teleporting from 1200 units when you already have a weapon that can hit up to 1500 units, sure you can chase better but what guaranteeds the kill that you wouldn't have been able to get with your already strong range because of what, LoS? Having one utility to skill to fix that is very inefficient.

    Something that can move around this fast is likely to trick you into going back on the node and if you already used your port for "mobility or offensive damage", then you probably lost the point.

    JI is honestly way more useful on Core than DH because you need to close the gap for damage, DH doesn't have that issue with Longbow.

    The healing on JI is also VERY negligible overtime compared having a 10% damage reduction across the board, do the math. Less damage means that your healing has much more value in the end on top of being free Retaliation for Teamfights and a lower cooldown stunbreak.

    Also please stop acting like getting hit by anything is laughable and stupid, it's quite easy to land anything when you can hit people after dodge. If they double dodge, that's a good trade in utility cd for endurance.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    being killed by traps while DH is on the other side of the map is not a problem with trapper rune.

    thats true. i wasn't talking about trapper rune.

    My bad, probably misunderstood if you were making another point.

    @Math.5123 said:

    If you somehow managed to get tethered, you can counter it with stab, stunbreak when the pull happens or running out of range to break the tether. It does not function like magebane tether.

    This is true.

    Just because you choose to ignore all the ways to counter a skill doesn't make it good.

    This is true.

    It's not untrue. You can dodge the first application of Spear. It has almost a second cast time. There is no excuse to ever being hit by it.

    Trapper rune stealth application.

    The "Balance" is a fantasy -- another mortal superstition.

  • Do you smell that? It smells like removing options from the game, because something is strong right now. No doubt when you remove that something, something else is going to be too strong. You heard them anet, remove more options!

  • What makes it op on DH but not on a ranger? Dunno just seems that the problem isn't the rune. A 10 ICD is a fair adjustment.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    What makes it op on DH but not on a ranger? Dunno just seems that the problem isn't the rune. A 10 ICD is a fair adjustment.

    It did make ranger OP until they nerfed their traps (I can garantee you that the build was very effective, trap ranger used to be nigh uncatchable). It also did make thiefs OP until they nerfed their trap (Same here a super effective build, even more effective than the ranger's in fact, I mean, the thief wasn't even revealed when it's traps were triggered and it's foes litterally melted without even seeing it's shadow)... It even somehow led the devs to change thieves trap into preparations to be more thorough. I'm sure DH traps can be nerfed to the ground as well so that the runeset don't make them OP anymore but do the playerbase want that?

    Stealth is just to strong on a runeset (even as a base ability for a profession it tend to make players argue that it's to strong). New e-specs are coming in a few month, if any of them get traps, it will be just a question of time before players come here ask for a nerf of this runeset.

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2021

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    What makes it op on DH but not on a ranger? Dunno just seems that the problem isn't the rune. A 10 ICD is a fair adjustment.

    Ranger traps got nerfed.
    Thief traps got removed completely.
    An immobile class that is definitely designed around NOT having stealth by all means (abundance of blocks, heal, regen, aegis, condi cleanse, team support, some hard cc and invuls) got really easy access not only to stealth but also superspeed - what could go wrong %D You guys may defend this all you want eventually thanks to this rune DH, not the rune, but DH will be nerfed, just other classes did because of this rune. I wonder though if you really will enjoy it.

    Remember how mesmers defended mirage on launch instead of admitting that EM was too good and giving constructive feedback? Yeah. Look where mirage is now.

    Meh~

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    What makes it op on DH but not on a ranger? Dunno just seems that the problem isn't the rune. A 10 ICD is a fair adjustment.

    It did make ranger OP until they nerfed their traps (I can garantee you that the build was very effective, trap ranger used to be nigh uncatchable). It also did make thiefs OP until they nerfed their trap (Same here a super effective build, even more effective than the ranger's in fact, I mean, the thief wasn't even revealed when it's traps were triggered and it's foes litterally melted without even seeing it's shadow)... It even somehow led the devs to change thieves trap into preparations to be more thorough. I'm sure DH traps can be nerfed to the ground as well so that the runeset don't make them OP anymore but do the playerbase want that?

    Stealth is just to strong on a runeset (even as a base ability for a profession it tend to make players argue that it's to strong). New e-specs are coming in a few month, if any of them get traps, it will be just a question of time before players come here ask for a nerf of this runeset.

    How would you nerf DH traps though, they're balanced right now. It's only the "trap" attribute that makes them even considered for use, Dragon Maw would be the only trap ever used otherwise if it wasn't for the Rune on Condition damage.

    SoJ is where all the damage comes from and if we're talking Power, Scepter skill 2 is a much bigger issue right now as it stands it's actually stronger in PvP than WvW or PvE. (No wonder it's being used so much in favor of anything else.)

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    What makes it op on DH but not on a ranger? Dunno just seems that the problem isn't the rune. A 10 ICD is a fair adjustment.

    It did make ranger OP until they nerfed their traps (I can garantee you that the build was very effective, trap ranger used to be nigh uncatchable). It also did make thiefs OP until they nerfed their trap (Same here a super effective build, even more effective than the ranger's in fact, I mean, the thief wasn't even revealed when it's traps were triggered and it's foes litterally melted without even seeing it's shadow)... It even somehow led the devs to change thieves trap into preparations to be more thorough. I'm sure DH traps can be nerfed to the ground as well so that the runeset don't make them OP anymore but do the playerbase want that?

    Stealth is just to strong on a runeset (even as a base ability for a profession it tend to make players argue that it's to strong). New e-specs are coming in a few month, if any of them get traps, it will be just a question of time before players come here ask for a nerf of this runeset.

    How would you nerf DH traps though, they're balanced right now. It's only the "trap" attribute that makes them even considered for use, Dragon Maw would be the only trap ever used otherwise if it wasn't for the Rune on Condition damage.

    SoJ is where all the damage comes from and if we're talking Power, Scepter skill 2 is a much bigger issue right now as it stands it's actually stronger in PvP than WvW or PvE. (No wonder it's being used so much in favor of anything else.)

    I have faith in Anet nerfing skills: something along the line "added 300 sec CD" lol. You know, the usual type of "balance".

    Meh~

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    What makes it op on DH but not on a ranger? Dunno just seems that the problem isn't the rune. A 10 ICD is a fair adjustment.

    It did make ranger OP until they nerfed their traps (I can garantee you that the build was very effective, trap ranger used to be nigh uncatchable). It also did make thiefs OP until they nerfed their trap (Same here a super effective build, even more effective than the ranger's in fact, I mean, the thief wasn't even revealed when it's traps were triggered and it's foes litterally melted without even seeing it's shadow)... It even somehow led the devs to change thieves trap into preparations to be more thorough. I'm sure DH traps can be nerfed to the ground as well so that the runeset don't make them OP anymore but do the playerbase want that?

    Stealth is just to strong on a runeset (even as a base ability for a profession it tend to make players argue that it's to strong). New e-specs are coming in a few month, if any of them get traps, it will be just a question of time before players come here ask for a nerf of this runeset.

    How would you nerf DH traps though, they're balanced right now. It's only the "trap" attribute that makes them even considered for use, Dragon Maw would be the only trap ever used otherwise if it wasn't for the Rune on Condition damage.

    SoJ is where all the damage comes from and if we're talking Power, Scepter skill 2 is a much bigger issue right now as it stands it's actually stronger in PvP than WvW or PvE. (No wonder it's being used so much in favor of anything else.)

    Imo you can get more condition damage out of DH runeset than you can get out of trapper's runeset. The rune's condition damage isn't even close to be the main selling point of the runeset.

    As for your question, you can't really decently nerf DH traps but it doesn't mean that it won't happen. They can change the way Procession of blade work for example. They can put a 2s ICD on being hit by test of faith, they can make light's judgment tic every 2s instead of every seconds... etc. It's not that difficult to find crippling nerfs that would just end up making traps not weaker on paper but close to useless (to the point that the stealth become meaningless) in practice.

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    being killed by traps while DH is on the other side of the map is not a problem with trapper rune.

    thats true. i wasn't talking about trapper rune.

    My bad, probably misunderstood if you were making another point.

    @Math.5123 said:

    If you somehow managed to get tethered, you can counter it with stab, stunbreak when the pull happens or running out of range to break the tether. It does not function like magebane tether.

    This is true.

    Just because you choose to ignore all the ways to counter a skill doesn't make it good.

    This is true.

    It's not untrue. You can dodge the first application of Spear. It has almost a second cast time. There is no excuse to ever being hit by it.

    Trapper rune stealth application.

    What you fail to realize is that is a dh uses spear, he loses almost all his damage. Over 80% of the damage comes from the passive proc.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Math.5123 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    being killed by traps while DH is on the other side of the map is not a problem with trapper rune.

    thats true. i wasn't talking about trapper rune.

    My bad, probably misunderstood if you were making another point.

    @Math.5123 said:

    If you somehow managed to get tethered, you can counter it with stab, stunbreak when the pull happens or running out of range to break the tether. It does not function like magebane tether.

    This is true.

    Just because you choose to ignore all the ways to counter a skill doesn't make it good.

    This is true.

    It's not untrue. You can dodge the first application of Spear. It has almost a second cast time. There is no excuse to ever being hit by it.

    Trapper rune stealth application.

    What you fail to realize is that is a dh uses spear, he loses almost all his damage. Over 80% of the damage comes from the passive proc.

    Ur last sentence perfectly shows how badly designed dh is and why it needs reworked.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2021

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Ur last sentence perfectly shows how badly designed dh is and why it needs reworked.

    The problem here is that DH had been designed with power damage in mind, yet Burning as a condition so atrociously strong that DH is better at Condition damage. So the problem is one of balancing, not of design.

    It doesn't help that rune of the Trapper is just exacerbating the problem and gives DH things that Guardians ought to not have access to.

    Suffice to say, both this rune and Burning are too strong.
    A bit of shaving is necessary, alongside with a rework of the rune's 6th effect.

    DH's design is fine for what is supposed to be, it just suffers from the February 25th patch of last year.
    If anything, I'd just replace Pure of Sight, as being further away should not result in higher damage.

  • @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Ur last sentence perfectly shows how badly designed dh is and why it needs reworked.

    its not dh, its permeating wrath + symbolic power.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Ur last sentence perfectly shows how badly designed dh is and why it needs reworked.

    its not dh, its permeating wrath + symbolic power.

    It's only permeating wrath. Making the burn aoe and trigger twice as often (I know it's 40%) is the issue.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • @Math.5123 said:
    It's only permeating wrath. Making the burn aoe and trigger twice as often (I know it's 40%) is the issue.

    hah, no. symbolic power is most definitely a problem. anyone reading the skill description should be able to figure it out for themselves.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2021

    @Math.5123 said:
    Dh has no unevadable pulls.

    @Math.5123 said:
    It's not untrue. You can dodge the first application of Spear. It has almost a second cast time. There is no excuse to ever being hit by it.

    @Math.5123 said:
    What you fail to realize is that is a dh uses spear, he loses almost all his damage. Over 80% of the damage comes from the passive proc.

    We weren't talking about DH Spear damage though. We were talking about whether the skill is un-evadable and if that un-evadable aspect is easily applied/there is an excuse to being hit by it. the answer to both of those questions is yes on Trapper rune builds, since trapper rune makes it easier to apply the first spear skill.

    Even if we were, the spear damage is not solely relevant to the synergy with Trapper runes. My issue is that Trapper Runes gives guardians a means to hide animations that high damage skills rely on to justify them. Spear tether is just one of those.

    @Cynz.9437 said:
    An immobile class that is definitely designed around NOT having stealth by all means (abundance of blocks, heal, regen, aegis, condi cleanse, team support, some hard cc and invuls) got really easy access not only to stealth but also superspeed - what could go wrong

    ^.
    Guardians already have generous amounts of damage mitigation built into their core. Their weaknesses- Namely that they are ordinarily highly visible and have telegraphed animations/are only mobile in bursts are all covered by Trapper Rune.

    The "Balance" is a fantasy -- another mortal superstition.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2021

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Ur last sentence perfectly shows how badly designed dh is and why it needs reworked.

    its not dh, its permeating wrath + symbolic power.

    U guys are right, I only meant that its extremely bad that the largest majority of dh/ burn guards damage is from passive burn procs, either those traits need changed, procs significantly reduced or burn itself needs significantly nerfed or whatever knowledgeable guard players think needs to happen if their honest lol. I haven't played guard or its specs for yrs so I can't rightly give suggestions on how to nerf it properly.
    That said 6th bonus of rune needs to be changed as it gives dh both invisibility and quickness to a spec that definitely should not have easy access to both.

  • NorthernRedStar.3054NorthernRedStar.3054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2021

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Math.5123 said:
    Dh has no unevadable pulls.

    @Math.5123 said:
    It's not untrue. You can dodge the first application of Spear. It has almost a second cast time. There is no excuse to ever being hit by it.

    @Math.5123 said:
    What you fail to realize is that is a dh uses spear, he loses almost all his damage. Over 80% of the damage comes from the passive proc.

    We weren't talking about DH Spear damage though. We were talking about whether the skill is un-evadable and if that un-evadable aspect is easily applied/there is an excuse to being hit by it. the answer to both of those questions is yes on Trapper rune builds, since trapper rune makes it easier to apply the first spear skill.

    Even if we were, the spear damage is not solely relevant to the synergy with Trapper runes. My issue is that Trapper Runes gives guardians a means to hide animations that high damage skills rely on to justify them. Spear tether is just one of those.

    @Cynz.9437 said:
    An immobile class that is definitely designed around NOT having stealth by all means (abundance of blocks, heal, regen, aegis, condi cleanse, team support, some hard cc and invuls) got really easy access not only to stealth but also superspeed - what could go wrong

    ^.
    Guardians already have generous amounts of damage mitigation built into their core. Their weaknesses- Namely that they are ordinarily highly visible and have telegraphed animations/are only mobile in bursts are all covered by Trapper Rune.

    Not to mention it's impossible to be looking around you at a 360-degree angle at all times. Being hit by spear is, by all means, a real possibility even in part thanks to foul luck.