Should traits be expanded? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Should traits be expanded?

Tseison.4659Tseison.4659 Member ✭✭✭
edited February 7, 2021 in Professions

As the title mentions, do you think traits should be expanded on, either by:

  • Allowing us to choose four specializations in the trait interface instead of three (no you won’t be able to run two “Elite” specializations at a time and mostly referring to core specs).
  • Or, giving each of our core specs an extra column of minor and major traits.

It likely will never happen but just thought I’d ask. Thanks for the “positive” feedback.

Should traits be expanded? 72 votes

Yes (Why and what are your ideas?)
25% 18 votes
No (Why not?)
65% 47 votes
Other (Explain)
9% 7 votes

Comments

  • Even if there were 4 Specializations and/or another column of minor and major traits, there would be a meta that those that feel they must use the meta, use.

    Remember, the more choices, the more difficulty balancing becomes.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ... We already had broader trait selection at the cost of depth. Anet changed it to the current system where you have less options but get the full tree for free.

    They aint gonna change it back.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Only Even.6193Only Even.6193 Member ✭✭✭

    Erm... Just one critical Nope exemple for a condi build : Firebrand + Zeal + Radiance + Virtues (almighty Permeating Wrath)... Unless you want to be able to destroy anything in Tyria playing solo, It's not that good of an idea.. But as a player that loves theorycrafting in mmorpg before everything else, I can understand where you are coming from, the actual meta is boring as Kittens.
    But the fact is, a lot of "non-meta" builds or bad builds goes from 0 to kitten if you dare adding one extra Trait, or even one extra Minor, and it's not really consistant between classes, so you can't apply the same rules/restrictions to each of them, It's a good Idea on the paper but I doubt Anet will bother to do that, It's a huge amount of work.. And we don't know yet which direction they will take for the next extension specs (if there are any).

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    "Other" - cause no one voted other yet. Actually I think new elite specs with the next expansion ... would make balancing a lot harder again. (Possibly devaluing the older elite specs.) A new profession would leave us with a different amount per armor weight (currently 3 professions for each - heavy/medium/light).

    So different types of customization would be interesting.
    I thought about weapons. But for traits it also could be interesting.

    For weapons I had something in mind like the materia system in final fantasy 7. Actually slots that could get unlocked that (5 for a 2-handed, 3+2 for main and offhanded and the 1-h that can be used as both ... it would use only the first 2 in off-hand slot). Legendaries would have all the slots for free. Slots available only for ascended as upgrade and not for exotics and lower.

    Should be able to slot stuff like "1 second cd reduction for the skill in that skill slot". (So if out of 5 you place a 1-second skill cd reduction orb in slot 2 it would recude the cd of skill 2 by one.) Needs to be very low (only 1 second or 1/4 second) for the lower skills that already have low CD. (And not available for auto attack.) With the option to "link" more than 1 together. If you use CD reduction for 2 skills there should be an extra bonus.

    There needs to be other stuff as well. Increasing specific boon duration only for a specific skill slow of that weapon. (Not affecting utility skills at all.)

    Or a completely customizable new weapon would be fun. Where you could chose different skills for the 1-5. (A lot more to balance then again. I guess.)


    For the elite and/or normal traits specs I'd like to see different customization. Maybe some customizable trait. With points you have to unlock. Make an extra slot for the 3rd line (where elite gets placed ... and it available for normal trait lines only if they get placed there ... if you use no elite). Then let us unlock stuff similar/fitting to that trait line ... where different things can be combined into that slot. (Give them "points" making the more useful stuff more expensive. So that you can't just take everything.)

    Actually I liked the old system from back then when you had more options of customization and could use all 5 trait lines. But only maxine 1 or 2 and splitting point son the other ones (only getting minor stuff there).

  • Naxos.2503Naxos.2503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not in the way described. It would throw the balance off way too much (more than it is, in some aspects). The only possible expansion I could see is horizontal. Not vertical.

  • HnRkLnXqZ.1870HnRkLnXqZ.1870 Member ✭✭✭✭

    NO - Why not?

    That is a very old Warrior request. They keep asking this for years, because they claim Strength and Discipline to be mandatory in every build = cannot experience build diversity. There is something similar going on with the Thieves at the moment and the tunnel-viewed focus on Trickery (Lead Attacks).

    Giving us the option to select four trait-lines would ultimately boost those classes which already have "mandatory" lines and enhance Elite Specializations even more. Our trait-lines are currently balanced around the fact that you can only select three. Some classes would break through the DPS roof, while others would become indestructible bunkers (e. g. Engineer).


    OTHER

    Instead of adding a new Elite Specialization, they could add Transformations. One per class, which you have to level with Hero Points with its unique trait-line and skills. In combat, you can enter it via F6 and have access to unique weapon-, heal-, utility- and elite-skills. The form has an energy-meter mechanic similar to the revenant, that fills with damage dealt/healed and lowers with skills used. When the energy is depleted, you drop out of the form and cannot access it for X minutes. The transformation only uses its own trait-line, no synergy with the others.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2021

    Vote: No.

    It's called power creep.

    At the same time, what most people do not realize, removing choice (and adding an additional tratline is just that: removal of choice) in general leads to more boring content. Yes, choice does not always need to be positive or welcome (say not being able to get every single trait you want), but it generally leads to more interesting decisions because the decisions have value.

    Once you have 4 traitlines, what is going to prevent the next person to ask for 5 traitlines? What argument will you use to tell them their idea is wrong, when 4 traitlines was okay?

    The argument that this will open up more builds paths, and thus is beneficial to the game, is flawed. What this type of change does is remove choice and homogenizes builds, so yes, it removes outlier builds by mere fact that less choice is available (this in fact removes builds from the game, it does not add any). This is just as useful as removing all traitlines and making all builds identical (which would be the logical conclusion of this idea taken to the extreme). That would essentially make no build unviable, and remove all choice and "fun" from builds.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Big no from me too. I remember the old times where you could select traits from more than 3 lines and what it did to Elementalists. The amazing 10/10/10/10/30 (or something like that?) was born, I can't recall the exact specifics but you were using the minor trait of every element line, because it contained a damage modifier.

    There is a flawed logic, that allowing more choices would lead to more build variety. It will not, because no matter how many choices you add, some of them are simply gonna be better than others. This is the illusion of choice, where you think there are choices, but in reality there aren't.

    You can also see the effect of "choice" in some specializations. There is choice between the 3 major traits on each tier, yet some are clearly better than others. The choice is there, but there is no extra build variety by that choice.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This would be huge power creep.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Only thing i would want is a race based traitline that would only be toggled on in oPvE or a mastery that would allow to give more weapon skills (not a full elite but rather something that chahges core weapons into something different.)

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think trait lines are a mistake, I would let players just choose the ones they like from a list, each trait having a different "trait cost" depending on how useful it is. This way traits can be individually balanced, and not affect the whole trait line after they're adjusted.

    Elite specializations would be chosen separatedly, and have no trait cost.

  • Tseison.4659Tseison.4659 Member ✭✭✭

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    Only thing i would want is a race based traitline that would only be toggled on in oPvE or a mastery that would allow to give more weapon skills (not a full elite but rather something that chahges core weapons into something different.)

    Omg that's a great idea too! :) Would love to have a different selection of skills for our core weapons. (Not elite specs)

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes but not the first option.

    Here's my take. More options in adept master and grandmaster would be great with options that offer a real diversity of build choices. Traits were supposed to replace the complexity of gw1's skill system, which it never did. Not saying it has to or should, but offering more variety would spice up a lot of old builds and could even open up more core class options.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Yes but not the first option.

    Here's my take. More options in adept master and grandmaster would be great with options that offer a real diversity of build choices. Traits were supposed to replace the complexity of gw1's skill system, which it never did. Not saying it has to or should, but offering more variety would spice up a lot of old builds and could even open up more core class options.

    ...but for that to be remotely true, first they would need to make a major rebalance patch to make each trait in their tier much closer performance-wise. Currently that's not the case, so not sure adding yet another underperforming (or overperforming to trample the currently existing ones) trait option would suddenly "increase build variety".
    Didn't you claim you keep going through content with the same build for the past few years (or something like that)? "just add another random trait" hardly seems like a solution for anything.

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭

    I enjoy the current system in GW2 over other MMO I have played, doesn't mean it is great but, I think it's pretty good.

    I get the appeal of adding more to an existing system, but it complicates a lot of balancing and player understanding to do so. I would prefer to maintain the current setup but if it were to change I would adjust the Major Traits in each Specialization to have 4 in tier 1, 3 in Tier 2 and 2 in Tier 3.

    In this theoretical change, I would suggest that the 3 Minor traits help define the Spec and the 2 Major at T3 would build off those Minor traits to create two 'spec defining choices' while the T1 and T2 traits would augment the T3 choices.

    It is a small tweak outwardly, but it would require a big rework of the traits. However it could/should simplify building for players and balancing for Devs while maintaining a decent number of build options overall.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I voted no i see huge problems such as firebrand combining all 3 core or something insane.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • From a different angle why couldn't you have multiple elite trait lines? You would just have to have the traits be 1 major and 2 minor. The major trait would follow the changes (for example if you have reaper major but scourge minor you would have reaper shroud and access to the scourge traits, weapons and skills but not mechanic (shades)). It would need a few skills fiddled with but I think that would greatly allow build diversity and fun combinations. This way you don't have an extra 4th trait power creep bar full of modifiers but still a lot more flexibility. Plus any elites in the Future could add to the pool of choices.

  • Yes to the second bullet point, since it was an "or" question. Thus, I'm not in favor of four traitlines to have on at all times, but I'd like more trait options to choose from, for both the sake of build experimenting again and also to reduce those times when a trait functionality is redesigned into something no one needed while also killing off options of things previously preferred.

  • Tseison.4659Tseison.4659 Member ✭✭✭

    @KidRoleplay.3615 said:
    Yes to the second bullet point, since it was an "or" question. Thus, I'm not in favor of four traitlines to have on at all times, but I'd like more trait options to choose from, for both the sake of build experimenting again and also to reduce those times when a trait functionality is redesigned into something no one needed while also killing off options of things previously preferred.

    Which is totally understandable because I myself never would think they’d add a fourth line but people here seem to be so hostile over people wishful thinking.

    Regardless with that said, I’m all for “cleaning up” the traits for all the professions and condensing existing ones within skills/weapons. I also believe there’s way too many useless traits that have been created and need to be disposed of to make way for something new and unique to make build diversity more “fruitful.”

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kronos.2560 said:
    From a different angle why couldn't you have multiple elite trait lines?

    I would think that this would run counter to the entire design of elite professions.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes but not to the addition of a 4th traitline.. that would greatly hurt the game more than anything.

    I'm voting yes purely for the addition of new minor traits per line that give us a choice.
    Occasionally I find myself running builds that don't always make use of certain minor traits.. thus the traits are completely wasted.
    Having a choice in this area would be nice to have and would give a little more build diversity overall without causing any major balance problems.

    I think the optimal amount of minor traits would be 2 which would give us 6 total minor traits per each specialisation line to complement the 9 Major traits per line we already have.

    Another thing I want to note as well.
    Every single character should get a build template slot exclusively for underwater content.
    When you cross into underwater your headgear changes, your weapons change and your utility skills change but your Traits do not!..
    We need an underwater build template so that we can setup a purely underwater build that our characters will automatically swap too whenever they enter water.

  • The systeme is fine as it is. That said I will be in favor for adding new base class spec, with the addition of more elite spec. The only 4th line of specialisation I want to see, is a racial one, let us choose wich race we want to have the skill (I care for the lore but I would rather have more tool to play with, even if it cost some unlore friendly mechanic, example asura using norn shape shift.)

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2021

    [Other]

    I don't think we need powercreep or just "more", as much as we need better/more interesting choices.
    Way too many Traits are either complete duds, extreme niche cases or bland.

    The Trait system (and their selectable amount) itself imo is mostly fine, those choices just need a major overhaul and balancing pass.
    "This is the PvE Trait, this the PvP Trait and this is the useless Trait no one ever takes" for each line, isn't really a choice.
    Neither are do 10% more damage interesting choices, nor are a majority of "Grandmaster" or line Capstones at all interesting or build defining.

    If I were to redesign the Trait system though, I would get rid of Minor Traits, as well as the concept of Adept and Master Traits, since they have long lost meaning anyway (both design wise, since we don't put points into Trait lines anymore, not making reaching higher tiers in a line an opportunity cost anymore, as well as many Minors or Adepts vastly outperforming Masters or even Grandmasters.

    Instead each Trait line could have 4 slots, in which one can freely slot any Traits of that line in any order, and then a capstone slot at the end, replacing the Grandmaster idea, in which a limited choice of major build/gameplay/visual defining Traits can be slotted, really defining that Traitline via altering a core aspect of the profession in an impactful way.

    So let's say each Trait line has 12+ "minor" Traits associated with it (out of reworked/balanced current minors, adepts, masters and most Grandmasters), 4 of which can be slotted in, and then at the end a choice of one of ~3 Major effects, affecting moment to moment gameplay, visual effects and feel of the build (a good example that I've repeatedly used for this are the Daredevil Dodges, or especially something like Writ of Persistence, which changes Symbols, a core mechanic of Guardian, via gameplay (making them bigger), functionality (adding duration and healing) as well as being visually represented ingame as choice to the player and those around, giving it an identity).

    No more bland but (for PvE at least) must pick do 10% more damage or gain 120 Power/Ferocity, especially not as "Grandmasters".

    TL;DR:
    We need more interesting and meaningful choices at the current scale, not just more bland no brainers added on top.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What I would like to see:

    For each class make all weapons available in OW without requiring their respective elites.

    New utilities available to core, especially elites.

  • same 3 trait line limit, but more choices in each section. 3 is kitten.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • jpsssss.7530jpsssss.7530 Member ✭✭✭

    Just from my experience with reaper, firebrand (condi/hybrid), and weaver they would be far too strong. Reaper would be able to take spite, blood, SR and reaper which is sustain (not as good without well trait) on top of beeg damage. Weaver yould be able to take fire, weaver, Arcane and any of the other 3 for bigger damage or sustain (and hybrid fire weaver needs neither of those things). Lastly, Imagine the standard burn guard, with all of the added bonuses that firebrand gives, like axe, quickness etc.

  • Tseison.4659Tseison.4659 Member ✭✭✭

    @jpsssss.7530 said:
    Just from my experience with reaper, firebrand (condi/hybrid), and weaver they would be far too strong. Reaper would be able to take spite, blood, SR and reaper which is sustain (not as good without well trait) on top of beeg damage. Weaver yould be able to take fire, weaver, Arcane and any of the other 3 for bigger damage or sustain (and hybrid fire weaver needs neither of those things). Lastly, Imagine the standard burn guard, with all of the added bonuses that firebrand gives, like axe, quickness etc.

    Oh of course it would be strong but as I stated and I'm sure Anet aren't naive, they'd definitely have to adjust/balance existing traits so builds aren't too strong...

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    Currently we have 30 combinations of Specializations per Profession with the 3 spec system. That is 10 with Core only, plus 10 per Elite Spec. Another way of considering it is 30 combinations of Minor Traits to select from.

    Each individual Specialization offers 27 different combinations of Traits. This gives you 81 possible Trait combinations within the 3 chosen Specializations for a given build. 81 combinations of Traits for each of the 30 combinations of Specializations. Overall, 2430 different combinations per Profession.

    While individually there are only 21 Minor and 63 Major traits for any given profession, its the number of combinations available that I think are worth noting. While adding more Traits or Specs to this system would provide more options, we already have a lot of options.

    While I am neutral on whether a change like this would be 'good or bad' I am very aware that currently this is one of the more complex/option filled systems for building a character in an MMO, and we haven't included armor types, weapon choices or runes and sigils.

    Do players think we need more options than we currently have, or do we need better options (or even less) to help tighten up what we already have?

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    same 3 trait line limit, but more choices in each section. 3 is kitten.

    Yes, but also kind of pointless while we pretty much have "placeholder traits" for a year now. Fix first, add later. Or fix and add at the same time. Don't just add and leave placeholders or I'll cry.

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Tseison.4659 said:
    Oh of course it would be strong but as I stated and I'm sure Anet aren't naive, they'd definitely have to adjust/balance existing traits so builds aren't too strong...

    They can't even handle balancing what already is possible and you expect them to balance something with even more options?

    True.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Traits are just fine, there aren't enough resources to waste of frivolous things like this.

    This post contains my opinion.

  • Yes, but all damage modifiers should be heavily nerfed. 5-7% maximum, +50-75 stats. Maybe we could avoid power creep.

    Master of garbage builds and being useless.