[FEB 25TH BALANCE PATCH] Examining the Feb 2020 balance one year later. What worked, what didn't. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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[FEB 25TH BALANCE PATCH] Examining the Feb 2020 balance one year later. What worked, what didn't.

Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited March 5, 2021 in PVP

This is a thread that I wrote in pieces and mostly 6 month ago, and decided to post close to the anniversary of the Feb 25th mega-patch of 2020. The point of this thread is to showcase various errors in that patch that to date have not really been addressed, and have now evolved within the meta to result in some noticeable problems in the gameplay. This thread also exists to highlight some of the good ideas from the patch that proved successful in improving gameplay. Most of this also applies to WvW.

1. Downstate was never updated to match the changes in damage. ( Oversight )

A side effect of damage being reduced across the board is that downstate generally now lasts noticeably longer, and cleaving out a downed target can be a losing game in the presence of support specs. It seems that downstate was just never really accounted for when factoring in the DPS reductions, and this has had some serious repercussions.

-”Support Balls” where multiple support/aoe damage hybrid builds ball together can be all but unkillable if they work together, because they can just instantly revive each other. This has proven an effective strategy in AT s, and is an extremely easy strategy to execute.
-Traits that help with resurrection are now a lot stronger and can at times pretty much instantly revive someone. Blood necro is especially strong at this.
-People in general staying in downstate for much longer than they previously would seems to hurt the flow of the game much more than anything. It also greatly increases the “Team rallybot” problem, where a teamfight can be won not by who plays better but by which team brought more stomp+revive options. “Build wars” aren’t fun.

Possible fixes:
-Consider reducing the HP pool of downstate, or the HP gained during revives by at least 10%
-Consider nerfing traits/skills that aid in revival

2. Pet / Summon / Spirits HP and stats were never updated to match the changes in damage. ( Oversight )

“Pets” such as spirit summons, Necromancer minions, and other summoned “Adds” were never updated to reflect the changes in DPS. The most noticeable of this being their health pool. This means that builds that could previously be countered much easier by simply killing the adds ( Kalla Renegade and Minion master are two notable examples ) now take a lot longer to take down. It also results in various implementations of the “run away/sustain while pets play the game for me” ""“strategy”"" which are never good for the game.

Possible fixes:
-Just reduce the base stats of all pets/summons to match the damage reduction from Feb 25th 2020, and the inherent counterplay to these types of builds will be restored. This one is a pretty easy solution, as none of these builds were especially effective pre-patch.

3. Poor visual tells and poor balancing of the "Cast time + Effect" tradeoff continues to be one of the biggest balance problems plaguing GW2 PvP.

One of the good things about the Feb25th patch was that it did focus on some level of the concept that "Big damage should come from big tells." Unfortunately, it just didn't do enough. This continues to be the biggest issue with GW2 PvP, and why so many builds and skills that would otherwise be fine feel extremely frustrating to play against or feel very gimmicky to play due to the fact that a large portion of the damage comes from abilities that have very low cast times and/or poor quality visual tells. There's also the problem of big AoE abilties casting as fast as single target abilities, while doing either the same or even more damage. The result of this is a lot of mindless "Stand on point, spam AoEs" builds continue to dominate in conquest.

A good example of this done right would be looking at the game SMITE by Hirez. All abilities have clear animations. You can easily understand what abilities are being used from a fair distance away. The vast majority of the most powerful abilities have a noticeable windup time to give players a chance to react. There are many reasons why Smite has a pro league and GW2 doesn't, and this one of them.

Possible fixes
-This issue is pretty self explanatory. Less damage coming from invisible passive sources, more coming from clearly recognizable abilities. This is something the patch did right, but just didn't do enough.
-Consider adding a system of glowing skill symbols for certain abilities that appear over a characters head, similar to what existed for many skills ( Such as Ressurection signet ) from GW1. These "extra animations" Could be toggled on/off in player options.
-Certain visual tells actually get blocked by damage text depending on your settings. This is a considerable oversight. Consider allowing players better control of the UI so this doesn't happen as often.
-Consider giving more AoE skills the "Shackling wave" Treatment: IE, increase the cast time by double, and then increase the damage proportionate to the cast time increase in PvE to make up for the DPS loss so the change doesn't hurt PvE-only players. Having tons of AoE abilities that can be quickly cast in succession due to all of them being <1s casting time is one of the biggest factors in GW2 that causes the game to feel like the gameplay is "spammy".
-"Reveal on hit" instead of "Reveal on cast" as a stealth mechanic is extremely controversial.
-Consider giving stability a noticeable visual tell. This boon is easily the most important buff in PvP, and yet it has no visual tell at all. This forces players to constantly check their targets status bar. As a basic example from smite, CC immune players gain a golden VFX to their model.

4. The problems behind Condition damage were not directly addressed.

When it comes to power damage, the Feb 25th patch generally hit the mark: Spike damage needed to come down, because oneshots were way too easy as a result of the previous two expansions massive powercreep. However when it comes to how condition damage works, the changes that were mostly the reduction of passive stacks and increase to cooldowns didn’t quite touch on what specifically causes condi builds to be oppressive in PvP.

To put it simply, the real issue with conditions is that they have three upsides to two downsides.
Downsides: 1. Damage over time is inferior to instant damage 2. Can be removed/transferred.
Upsides: 1. Damage is overall higher 2. Stat advantage ( Only 1 stat required -condition damage- VS 3 stats -Power, Precision, Ferocity- ) 3. Condi abilities generally have low visual tells and/or are heavily carried by invisible passives and AoE spam.

The Feb 25th patch didn’t address this disparity at all, and instead tried to mask it with random numbers nerfs and dartboard cooldown hits. The result is that condi builds don’t really feel like they have seen any improvement in gameplay over the last year at all, and still for the most part come down to build wars instead of skill.

Possible fixes:
-To put it simply, either one of the upsides of condition damage should be reduced, or conditions need a new downside.
-IMO the best solution is unfortunately the one that requires the most work: Condi skills should have the same level of animated tells and cast times as Power based skills. Getting hit with invisible passives and fast casting unblockable AoEs is probably what most people dislike about condi builds the most. In other words, see problem #3.
-A band-aid solution is to increase the number of conditions removed by most condi clears by one. This isn’t the best solution by any means, but it's relatively easy to implement.

5. Not all CC s are created equal, and they haven’t really received the post-rework treatment that most expected. This has resulted in most CC skills being either a lot stronger or weaker than they should be

The basic change to CC in GW2 that came along Feb 25th is something I personally found favorable. Reducing stability and stunbreaks meant people actually had to actively try to avoid CC ( As opposed to just running around with 10 billion stacks of stab and never having to learn what the tells are for CC skills ), while removing the damage from CC also meant that CC now had to be used as a part of a skill combo than as a free kill when it lands.

That being said, the main oversight here is this rework made it so CC that takes a long time to cast and have huge animations are not nearly as strong as they once were, while CC that have poor visual tells or comes with additional benefits such as being multi-hit in a huge AoE, unblockable, or even unevadeable got a huge indirect buff. So yet again, see problem #3. This disparity has not been well addressed over the last year, leading more and more builds to gravitate towards CC spam of unevadeables and unblockables. Gale, Dragon’s Maw, Shock aura, Sleight of Hand, and Darkrazor's Daring are just a few example skills/mechanics that are now much stronger than they need to be. Meanwhile, certain elite CC with huge tells like PLB still seem underwhelming.

Possible fixes:
-Consider removing the mechanic of unevadeable CCs from the game entirely. Unblockable CCs already perform the job of being able to break through block-spam, so unevadeable CCs don't really add anything to the game other than to further encourage the "Stand on point, spam AoEs" cheese-strategy. Unevadeables also severely lack counterplay and are thus just in general bad for the game.
-Severely tone down CC s that have no visual tell, or give them a visual tell.
-Consider “gain stability for 2s when you break a stun” a default mechanic of all stun breaks, similar to the trait “Glaring Resolve” minus the heal ( You only get the stab if you are actually CC-d when you use a stunbreak skill ). What this does is cut down on the effectiveness of CC spam, without the problems cause by “On demand” stability.

6. While sustain was brought down to match the damage reduction, Indirect sources of sustain really were not.

Many players warned before the patch went live that indirect sources of sustain such as barrier-spam and Necro lifeforce were not really being touched as much as they should. A year later, things have slightly improved, but this issue has overall proven to be a noticeable side effect. This can also result in a lot of builds that are better at bunkering than they should, because they gain a source of sustain that can be easily spammed. "Decap" builds are a solid example.

Possible fixes
-Skills and traits that have no ( Or an extremely low ) ICD tend to be the biggest offenders.
-Pay close attention to bunker builds and what enables them. Too much bunker leads to an extremely stale meta.
-Continue to monitor indirect forms of sustain that add more health but don't technically "Heal".
-New players tend to have problems with skills like Defiant stance ( Warrior ) or Infused light ( Rev ) that convert incoming damage into healing. While it's easy to tell these players to "gitgud", and in many ways it really is a L2P issue, it's also another case of problem #3. The visual tell on these skills just aren't good enough to match how serious of a skill they are, to the point where it is easier to notice them by looking at their status-bar than their player model. The stats ( Cooldown/Duration ) on these skills and how they function are fine, but consider adding a brighter glow to them to help the noobs out.

7. "Just increase the cooldown" didn't work at all.

See thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97262/why-increasing-cooldowns-does-not-reduce-spam-and-can-even-make-spam-worse#latest

Most of what I warned about in that thread has come to pass. The most effective method to kill someone in the game right now is to +1 them. While this has always been true, it's far easier now since the chances of two players engaged in an on point 1v1 being out of cooldowns is noticeably higher. This is not some weird theorycrafting opinion, it is a mathematically demonstrable fact. If the average CD of skills is 20, and this is increased to 40, the odds of a person being out of CDs when they are +1ed is roughly 50% higher. All "Just increase the cooldown" as a primary balancing method does is encourage outnumbering as a primary strategy.

Possible fixes
-Consider why a skill is overpowered before nerfing it. More often than not, the cooldown has little to do with it.
-In the case of GW2 especially, most skills that ended up getting a cooldown nerf actually have a cast-time problem rather than a cooldown problem.
-In other words, see problem #3.
-Consider reverting most cooldown nerfs, replacing them with actual nerfs.

Comments

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2021

    Return damage to all cc's and adjust damage done based on cast tines, cd, ease of counter etc. Uve got one cc doing a single target knockdown and another pulsing knockdown for .....secs,the damage needs to be adjusted for each individual cc, blanket adjustments are lazy and just cause issues elsewhere.
    When adding damage back to cc remove their ability to crit.
    Increase healing signet slightly as its literally useless and never used now.
    Remove passive burns on guard, change the 6th bonus on trapper rune.
    Slight shave to core necro sustain, its still too high post feb.
    Ren sustain needs hammered and aoe's coverage reduced.
    Return dodge on Mirage so it feels less clunky for Mirage players but shave its evade frames elsewhere or else its evade potential will be too high.
    Lower the hp on Ranger vines further to match feb damage nerf.
    Explosive entrance needs a nerf as does flash bang.
    Revert the cost of Infiltrator’s arrow, remove the blind and lower range to 800.

  • Aktium.9506Aktium.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2021

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    1. Downstate was never updated to match the changes in damage. ( Oversight )
    A side effect of damage being reduced across the board is that downstate generally now lasts noticeably longer, and cleaving out a downed target can be a losing game

    This was most definitely intended. Anet never wanted cleaving downed people to be as outright better than stomping as it became prior to the February patch last year. I think it's a healthy change. If a change does have to be made it should be something that keeps cleaving downed people somewhat ineffective but slows down the ressing itself like making the ress heal ramp up happen slower or something.

    -Traits that help with resurrection are now a lot stronger and can at times pretty much instantly revive someone. Blood necro is especially strong at this.

    Are you aware that Transfusion and Lesser Well of Blood revives for just 1% each in PvP? You pretty much only take Ritual of Life these days so you get an auto heal on yourself and a ticking heal to help sustain you while you ress. It practically does nothing to actually speed up the ressing process. It just helps you tank cleave while you ress if anything. Same with Transfusion. If you slot it in a build, you just want the heal for sustain, although moving downed people to you can be good.

  • Loboling.5293Loboling.5293 Member ✭✭✭

    Since I don't agree with everything you said, but appreciate a new discussion on the topic, 1 year later.

    Point 1 - Downstate was never updated to match the changes in damage. ( Oversight )
    I simply don't agree, and I think the balance between cleaving and stomping/rezzing is good.

    However, one of your fixes touches on a real issue, is that some more work needs to go into balancing rez skills.

    Point 2 - Pet / Summon / Spirits HP and stats were never updated to match the changes in damage. ( Oversight )

    Again, I don't think any changes to pet or summon hp are required. I don't see the issue here.

    Point 3 - Poor visual tells and poor balancing of the "Cast time + Effect" tradeoff continues to be one of the biggest balance problems plaguing GW2 PvP.
    I mostly agree with this. It's not as bad as when standing next to a scourge would 1 shot you on a rev if you just swapped into shiro, or when mirages would be nearly permanently evading while all their clones blow you up. I think the balance between visual commitment and perceived attack is better, but it still needs more work.

    Point 4 - The problems behind Condition damage were not directly addressed.

    I don't think this issue is separate from point 3. If skills that did lots of damage were obvious to the player, including condi attacks, players could respond more easily. Besides seeing a few very slight shaving to some skills. I think it's fine for condi damage to scale differently. Especially if they do the right thing and bring back damage with certain CC skills. Which will increase the burst of power builds. Skills like Prime Light Beam, Headbutt, Warrior Hammer 4, 5, etc. Skills that look impactful, should deal some damage. Even if it's a bit less than other skills. That would even out the damage disparity, and increase the pace of the games more, without making the gameplay more toxic.

    Point 5 - Not all CC s are created equal, and they haven’t really received the post-rework treatment that most expected. This has resulted in most CC skills being either a lot stronger or weaker than they should be

    Completely agree.

    Point 6 - While sustain was brought down to match the damage reduction, Indirect sources of sustain really were not.

    I mostly agree. I'm just worried A-Net would go overboard with nerfs. I really think they need to be improving the underdog builds that could keep them in check instead. If they could bring builds like berserker, or zerker staff ele into the mix, they would wreck bunkers. But they keep giving them nerfs like Meteor shower doing less damage on each attack, and remove the damage on Headbutt and bull charge. They need to be careful about nerfing the very builds that keep bunkers from getting out of control.

    Point 7 - "Just increase the cooldown" didn't work at all.

    I completely agree.

  • Just tired of the bunker builds. If you down someone today, good luck stomping. There's so much CC and passive healing going around that actually finishing a kill is a luxury if there are 2 people.

  • @Sheobix.8796 said:
    Just tired of the bunker builds. If you down someone today, good luck stomping. There's so much CC and passive healing going around that actually finishing a kill is a luxury if there are 2 people.

    It's true. I've been playing a CC-spam bunker warrior build and I tend to get the rez off on most of the people that go down.

    Nerfing CC just lead to an overabundance of it. Why use it to combo when the CC itself does no damage, and the follow up skill only does a fraction of the damage it used to?
    Why go full zerks to do less damage than demolisher's used to do when I can load up on tank stats & 13 different CC skills, boop someone once, and force them to use their stunbreaks which take a good 5% of the entire match to recharge now?

    Without a doubt, probably the single worst patch in PvP's history. The follow up patches haven't really been any better, essentially getting praise for solving issues the patch created months after the fact. Dug people into a hole, then gave them a shovel, now everything's good. 👌
    Amazing. 10/10. It was a good step in the right direction.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.
    "You cannot learn a thing you think you know..."

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sheobix.8796 said:
    Just tired of the bunker builds. If you down someone today, good luck stomping. There's so much CC and passive healing going around that actually finishing a kill is a luxury if there are 2 people.

    That's why I list it as a problem regardless of whether or not it was intended, failing to reduce the downstate pushed things towards bunker meta in a not very good way. Support specs that can instares can thus just build super tanky and yet force the other team to deal with them since they can res squishies over and over.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2021

    @Loboling.5293 said:

    Point 4 - The problems behind Condition damage were not directly addressed.

    I don't think this issue is separate from point 3. If skills that did lots of damage were obvious to the player, including condi attacks, players could respond more easily. Besides seeing a few very slight shaving to some skills. I think it's fine for condi damage to scale differently. Especially if they do the right thing and bring back damage with certain CC skills. Which will increase the burst of power builds. Skills like Prime Light Beam, Headbutt, Warrior Hammer 4, 5, etc. Skills that look impactful, should deal some damage. Even if it's a bit less than other skills. That would even out the damage disparity, and increase the pace of the games more, without making the gameplay more toxic.

    You aren't wrong.

    I was mainly just trying to over-emphasize the problem of poor visual tells by showcasing various parts of the game where it's a big problem. Condi skills and traits in general have extremely poor quality animations and very low cast times when compared to their power counterparts. The fact that condi metas tend to get more hate than power metas is not a coincidence to this. It's an advantage that these abilities simply do not need to have, and adds nothing to the game other than to encourage spammy and unskillful gameplay.

    Like right now in the meta, I would much rather fight a good power Reaper necro than a Vanilla condi necro, even though the Reaper is actually capable of far more damage and utility. The reason is simple: Core condi nec has bad visual tells, and this makes it less interactive to fight. Half the skills coming out of it look like some variant of barely discernible auto attack handwaves that are so small you can't even see them over the damage number graphics. Even GW1 curse necros had better animations than this when you account for the fact that they had a casting bar. It also causes the build to require much less skill than it should, since the animation quality is so poor the most effective strategy is thus to just 1234512345 as fast as you can and defeat your opponents via Gish-Gallop.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You gotta be careful with nerfs if reaper gets nerfed in sustain and dmg and ends up not being a scary monster who chases you with their reaper shroud, it would ruin the elite spec entirely.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:
    You gotta be careful with nerfs if reaper gets nerfed in sustain and dmg and ends up not being a scary monster who chases you with their reaper shroud, it would ruin the elite spec entirely.

    I doubt the thread is focused on nerfing the reaper.

    I think some of the thread points are outdated, thought, a lot of tweaks have been made since 2020 feb patch that this thread don't seem to take into account.

    The thread also ecchoed the common prejudices about things like downstate and condition damage. Which really are less about balance than simply disliking game mechanisms. Afterall, the optimal way to deal with a downed foe is and should be to stomp it while condition skills do have just as many tells as power skills does.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    You gotta be careful with nerfs if reaper gets nerfed in sustain and dmg and ends up not being a scary monster who chases you with their reaper shroud, it would ruin the elite spec entirely.

    I doubt the thread is focused on nerfing the reaper.

    And you would be correct. I consider Reaper to be the best designed spec that Necro has. Best animations, requires the most skill to play, most rewarding.

    Reaper vs Corenec vs Scourge is actually one of the best examples of what I meant by the problem of condi abilities lacking good quality animations. You generally can't tell which ability a scourge is using unless you intentionally get hit by them, and the casting animation of most staff skills are the same "Hold staff wave hand" nonsense. Reaper on the other hand has clearly discernible animations for each skill.

    IMO we really should just have an option for cast bars to put over players heads that can be toggled in options. GW1 had it and it increased the counterplay a ton. The idea for GW2 to not have cast bars was based around the idea of having animations, a design choice that WOULD be correct if the animations were actually well made. But they just aren't.

  • darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭

    Literally nothing worked. Thread solved

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    Still standing by the fact Riposting Shadows and Empty Vessel were the worst thing ever created and made Revenant stupidly easy.

    By the time you're done stunbreaking you'll have 15% anyway that of which makes the profession finally able to be stunlocked in 1v1's.

    This patch has honestly done wonders and I have yet to be extremely disappointed. I am more satisfied by the complexity added rather than 2 seconds fights, that mind you can still happen.

    Anything I try to play has some form of success and potential which before I couldn't have. It was a good patch and learning to adapt is the way to enjoy it.

    The small stuff that still made their way around it will be dealt with afterwards.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    @Axl.8924 said:
    You gotta be careful with nerfs if reaper gets nerfed in sustain and dmg and ends up not being a scary monster who chases you with their reaper shroud, it would ruin the elite spec entirely.

    People are asking to nerf that stupid gutling gun Elite 11111 spam, that would make things much more tolerable....or at the very least stop the elite from being affected by quickness, due to this boons you'll receive around 12k dmg within 1s

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    everyone is so doom and gloom about the megapatch, but it was the lack of follow up that was the suicide move. the one shot meta was garbage and anyone who wants to return to it probably relied on cheap builds. sustain meta isn't much better but at least noobs can't roll some brain dead build and gank you with zero brain effort. now they run around and deal no damage, better then them getting kills imo.

    So its better now if bust type specs or builds that one shot run around doing no damage than doing a appropriate damage for a burst spec, or its better now there's braindead builds like core necro,burn guard/trap dh etc? I mean atleast pre feb u saw more classes represented, now every match is multiple guards/dh, necros, rens and holo's with the rest spattered here and there, was definitely better pre feb imo. Most it seems agree as post feb pvp lost even more players at a faster rate. Had they did proper follow up then who knows maybe more would stayed.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Still standing by the fact Riposting Shadows and Empty Vessel were the worst thing ever created and made Revenant stupidly easy.

    By the time you're done stunbreaking you'll have 15% anyway that of which makes the profession finally able to be stunlocked in 1v1's.

    This patch has honestly done wonders and I have yet to be extremely disappointed. I am more satisfied by the complexity added rather than 2 seconds fights, that mind you can still happen.

    Anything I try to play has some form of success and potential which before I couldn't have. It was a good patch and learning to adapt is the way to enjoy it.

    The small stuff that still made their way around it will be dealt with afterwards.

    The patch was a mess due to the actual process behind it, they just applied numerical changes without any regard for each class raw stats and basic gameplay, EX: a flat number reduction in healing will affect a class like ele differently from say a thief or mesmer or necro which have access to better inbuilt defensive mechanics and don't rely on heal burst to stay alive, this is the reason builds disappear.

    When Anet talks about sustain nerfs they just go around nerfing raw numbers, professions like ele mostly and guardian will ofc suffer the most but other professions with access to evades, blocks and stealth won't care at all for the so called "sustain nerfs"

    A balance patch means numerical AND mechanical changes necessary to reach a state of balance between professions, when you go and nerf raw healing number what about : block and reflection uptime? barrier spam? stealth and clones? shroud generation? evades rotations?

    They do the same thing with dmg, they go and nerf dmg across the board but...some skills will still have 1+ cast time plus after cast and becoming worthless, other sources of dmg will now have just lower dmg but will still be insta cast.........How can we consider that balance?

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    lol pre-feb even glass cannon fights usually took ~20s when both parties were on equal level, meanwhile now I have fights where I zone out, and forget to dodge anything for 1min and still dont die, cuz you know, everyone is a bunker since going for damage is a risk with no reward.
    Supports in gw2 are done poorly, in most games supports are REALLY easy to kill and have to be defended since they bring massive value with damage buffs, heals and utility. But in gw2 supports are absolute kitten un-killable bunkers, like warrior with its 26k hp and 2,4k armor. Legit 2x effective HP of dps classes with more on demand defensive skills to boot. If you dont focus them you cant kill anything since they keep healing and then drop an insta-rez but if you focus them you cant kill them since they are kitten bunkers, and if there are 2 kitten supports combined then kitten me.
    Legit boredom incarnate, for all the faults off DH its the only thing that can kill those kitten things.
    And IMO we need more damage in the game, and less sustain.

  • We lost intense fast paced fights for mindless slogs where you just try to out rotate your opponent and eventually land a cc burst when they are out of cds, and thats only if its not a stalemate. Yeah there were issues before, but the feb patch created more problems than it fixed.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    EX: a flat number reduction in healing will affect a class like ele differently from say a thief or mesmer or necro which have access to better inbuilt defensive mechanics and don't rely on heal burst to stay alive, this is the reason builds disappear.

    Don't you think that's an heavily biased argument you got there? Just from core and without even including traits, elementalist got the ability to equip defensive mean amongst:

    • invuln (Obsidian flesh, mist form, fortify)
    • block (arcane shield)
    • instant mobility often coupled with dodge frame (lightning flash, burning speed, burning retreat, Lightning leap, Fiery whirl, fiery rush, earthen rush, updraft)
    • Reflect/block missiles (magnetic aura, magnetic surge, magnetic wave, ring of earth, swirling wind)
    • Without forgetting about barrier access (crippling shield, stone shift, magnetic shield), boons (protection, vigor, stability), conditions (weakness, blind, chill, cripple), aura (frost aura), hard CCs... etc.
    • Even elementalist's ability to condi cleanse options are underestimated granted that at any given moment you can have up to 4 cleansing skills sloted (Ice elemental's crashing wave, cleansing fire, ether renewal, cleansing wave, magnetic wave, healing rain)

    I doubt there is another core profession with this many active defense skills and effects available in game, maybe elementalist relying on heal burst isn't it's only option to stay alive. I would say that the reason build disappear is often narrowmindness, people focusing on a single aspect that proved to work well at a moment and forgetting that there is many other aspects that only wait to be exploited.

    NB.: Traitlines and elite specs only had more to this list.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    You gotta be careful with nerfs if reaper gets nerfed in sustain and dmg and ends up not being a scary monster who chases you with their reaper shroud, it would ruin the elite spec entirely.

    People are asking to nerf that stupid gutling gun Elite 11111 spam, that would make things much more tolerable....or at the very least stop the elite from being affected by quickness, due to this boons you'll receive around 12k dmg within 1s

    I don-t know if its truly necessary or not considering a few things: They can be kited and are very slow. If the damage was nerfed by lets say 50-70% on 1 they would be a joke in reaper shroud.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Lucentfir.7430Lucentfir.7430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    everyone is so doom and gloom about the megapatch, but it was the lack of follow up that was the suicide move. the one shot meta was garbage and anyone who wants to return to it probably relied on cheap builds. sustain meta isn't much better but at least noobs can't roll some brain dead build and gank you with zero brain effort. now they run around and deal no damage, better then them getting kills imo.

    It was naïve to think Anet would follow up appropriately given their track record for good execution and delivery. Even more so with how much they care and support the PvP activity side of the game. Everyone who knows Anet well, already knew it was going to be bad and there were going to be issues. Lazy blanket changes is what we got instead of deep dive class/spec tuning, and you can't tell me otherwise or disprove it when there's an entire traitline and traits that were broken intentionally with 5 minute ICDs that have a sticky note with a "will fix later" from over a year ago.

    Funny thing talking about noobs, one in a bunker build/meta can make a bunch of severe mistakes and still be alive. Though a noob in a burst build/meta, they'll kill people easier , but crumbles under pressure and panic because all s/he knows is how to execute damage, and they'll make some really bad mistakes good players can capitalize on. Punishing players for making critical errors/mistakes is a rewarding factor of good pvp, especially in a game with fluid action combat like Gw2's.

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    EX: a flat number reduction in healing will affect a class like ele differently from say a thief or mesmer or necro which have access to better inbuilt defensive mechanics and don't rely on heal burst to stay alive, this is the reason builds disappear.

    Don't you think that's an heavily biased argument you got there? Just from core and without even including traits, elementalist got the ability to equip defensive mean amongst:

    • invuln (Obsidian flesh, mist form, fortify)
    • block (arcane shield)
    • instant mobility often coupled with dodge frame (lightning flash, burning speed, burning retreat, Lightning leap, Fiery whirl, fiery rush, earthen rush, updraft)
    • Reflect/block missiles (magnetic aura, magnetic surge, magnetic wave, ring of earth, swirling wind)
    • Without forgetting about barrier access (crippling shield, stone shift, magnetic shield), boons (protection, vigor, stability), conditions (weakness, blind, chill, cripple), aura (frost aura), hard CCs... etc.
    • Even elementalist's ability to condi cleanse options are underestimated granted that at any given moment you can have up to 4 cleansing skills sloted (Ice elemental's crashing wave, cleansing fire, ether renewal, cleansing wave, magnetic wave, healing rain)

    I doubt there is another core profession with this many active defense skills and effects available in game, maybe elementalist relying on heal burst isn't it's only option to stay alive. I would say that the reason build disappear is often narrowmindness, people focusing on a single aspect that proved to work well at a moment and forgetting that there is many other aspects that only wait to be exploited.

    NB.: Traitlines and elite specs only had more to this list.

    Now of all the ones you have mentioned tell me how many can be used in the same build. I answer you 1.

    you can have multiple locks but only use 1 that is feasible.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    @Lucentfir.7430 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    everyone is so doom and gloom about the megapatch, but it was the lack of follow up that was the suicide move. the one shot meta was garbage and anyone who wants to return to it probably relied on cheap builds. sustain meta isn't much better but at least noobs can't roll some brain dead build and gank you with zero brain effort. now they run around and deal no damage, better then them getting kills imo.

    It was naïve to think Anet would follow up appropriately given their track record for good execution and delivery. Even more so with how much they care and support the PvP activity side of the game. Everyone who knows Anet well, already knew it was going to be bad and there were going to be issues. Lazy blanket changes is what we got instead of deep dive class/spec tuning, and you can't tell me otherwise or disprove it when there's an entire traitline and traits that were broken intentionally with 5 minute ICDs that have a sticky note with a "will fix later" from over a year ago.

    Funny thing talking about noobs, one in a bunker build/meta can make a bunch of severe mistakes and still be alive. Though a noob in a burst build/meta, they'll kill people easier , but crumbles under pressure and panic because all s/he knows is how to execute damage, and they'll make some really bad mistakes good players can capitalize on. Punishing players for making critical errors/mistakes is a rewarding factor of good pvp, especially in a game with fluid action combat like Gw2's.

    Anet def has issues they need to fix:

    The specs that are core being far outdone by elites for instance. Make sure core warr is just as viable as its elites, same with ele mes and engi.

    I'd like to see them adress that issue first by making something unique that cannot be effected by nerfing the elites, so if the elites suffer the core spec which might not be overtuned doesn't. I don't know how they can pull that off though.

    I would love if they found a solution to CC and mobility spam on some classes for real. Some of the newest elites have a lot of clutter spam and power creep to a extreme degree and bring it back to more bearable levels such as to hot or even before hot levels of spam and clutter. PVP was enjoyable in 2018 when i started or somewhere around that time.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Archer.4362 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Don't you think that's an heavily biased argument you got there? Just from core and without even including traits, elementalist got the ability to equip defensive mean amongst:

    • invuln (Obsidian flesh, mist form, fortify)
    • block (arcane shield)
    • instant mobility often coupled with dodge frame (lightning flash, burning speed, burning retreat, Lightning leap, Fiery whirl, fiery rush, earthen rush, updraft)
    • Reflect/block missiles (magnetic aura, magnetic surge, magnetic wave, ring of earth, swirling wind)
    • Without forgetting about barrier access (crippling shield, stone shift, magnetic shield), boons (protection, vigor, stability), conditions (weakness, blind, chill, cripple), aura (frost aura), hard CCs... etc.
    • Even elementalist's ability to condi cleanse options are underestimated granted that at any given moment you can have up to 4 cleansing skills sloted (Ice elemental's crashing wave, cleansing fire, ether renewal, cleansing wave, magnetic wave, healing rain)

    I doubt there is another core profession with this many active defense skills and effects available in game, maybe elementalist relying on heal burst isn't it's only option to stay alive. I would say that the reason build disappear is often narrowmindness, people focusing on a single aspect that proved to work well at a moment and forgetting that there is many other aspects that only wait to be exploited.

    NB.: Traitlines and elite specs only had more to this list.

    Now of all the ones you have mentioned tell me how many can be used in the same build. I answer you 1.

    you can have multiple locks but only use 1 that is feasible.

    Only 1 what?

    I mean, unless you didn't really read properly, I said that all these options were available to use. Just slot earth shield you'll have 1 invuln, 1 reflect, ton of barrier and protect. Use focus to get another invuln, projectile block, projectile reflect and condi cleanse. Use dagger and you'll enjoy 2 evade skills and projectile block. We are at 1 MH weapon, 1 off hand weapon and a single utility skill slot used here. Yet that's already 2 invuln, 2 reflects, 2 evade skills, a projectile block on 6 s CD, barrier, cleanse 3 condi, weakness output and boon prot access. What more could we get from 1 elite, 1 heal skill, 2 utility skills and a bunch of traits? 8 conditions cleansed with ether renewal? Another invuln with mist form? 3 conditions cleansed from cleansing fire? A 5 seconds CD evade skill on fiery greatsword? What would that make? 3 invuln, 2 reflect, a projectile block, 3 evade skills, 14 condition cleansed throught 3 skills used, weakness and protection?

    You're free to build how you want, thinking that only a single option is valid is a lock you put on yourself, not a lock that ANet put on you. In fact just using D/F prove your argument wrong.

  • foste.3098foste.3098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021

    One thing i will never understand about the feb mega patch is why did they nerf everything across the board? Why were skills/traits that had never been an issue since the games launch gotten nerfed?
    For example eviscerate has always had a scaling of 2.0/2.5/3.0 depending on adrenaline, so why change it? There are huge number of skills like that that got changed in pvp/wvw seemingly for the sake of slowing down the game, or reducing power creep. But in reality the reason for the powercreep and the fast time to kill was not that skills had to much scaling (although there were outliers) but that skills had become overbloated.

    For a good example look at bull's charge: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bull's_Charge
    Note the path of fire pre-patch of August 08, 2017, the skill got a triple damage buff and became an evade. Before hand the skill was a long knockdown, a long gap closer/gap creator, and a leap finisher that dealt slightly higher damage than 1st skill in the greatsword auto attack chain; all in all a an al-round useful and good skill, so why the kitten make it an evade and a 2nd stage eviscerate burst in addition to all the utility it had before?
    This is just the most clear example of skill bloating that lead to the powercreep but there are countless cases like that. So if the issue is idiotic bloating of skills why then blanket nerf damage across the board, leave the bloated skill design, and never follow through on further balance when it is clear that there are massive issues still?

    The dumbest part is if they wait to release the new expansion before deciding to actually do some balance, because that way the new elite spec are doomed to ether be broken op or broken useless since they are being set up upon broken foundation.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @foste.3098 said:
    One thing i will never understand about the feb mega patch is why did they nerf everything across the board? Why were skills/traits that had never been an issue since the games launch gotten nerfed?
    For example eviscerate has always had a scaling of 2.0/2.5/3.0 depending on adrenaline, so why change it? There are huge number of skills like that that got changed in pvp/wvw seemingly for the sake of slowing down the game, or reducing power creep. But in reality the reason for the powercreep and the fast time to kill was not that skills had to much scaling (although there were outliers) but that skills had become overbloated.

    For a good example look at bull's charge: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bull's_Charge
    Note the path of fire pre-patch of August 08, 2017, the skill got a triple damage buff and became an evade. Before hand the skill was a long knockdown, a long gap closer/gap creator, and a leap finisher that dealt slightly higher damage than 1st skill in the greatsword auto attack chain; all in all a an al-round useful and good skill, so why the kitten make it an evade and a 2nd stage eviscerate burst in addition to all the utility it had before?
    This is just the most clear example of skill bloating that lead to the powercreep but there are countless cases like that. So if the issue is idiotic bloating of skills why then blanket nerf damage across the board, leave the bloated skill design, and never follow through on further balance when it is clear that there are massive issues still?

    The dumbest part is if they wait to release the new expansion before deciding to actually do some balance, because that way the new elite spec are doomed to ether be broken op or broken useless since they are being set up upon broken foundation.

    Question then do you remember how druid was when it was first released?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    EX: a flat number reduction in healing will affect a class like ele differently from say a thief or mesmer or necro which have access to better inbuilt defensive mechanics and don't rely on heal burst to stay alive, this is the reason builds disappear.

    Don't you think that's an heavily biased argument you got there? Just from core and without even including traits, elementalist got the ability to equip defensive mean amongst:

    • invuln (Obsidian flesh, mist form, fortify)
    • block (arcane shield)
    • instant mobility often coupled with dodge frame (lightning flash, burning speed, burning retreat, Lightning leap, Fiery whirl, fiery rush, earthen rush, updraft)
    • Reflect/block missiles (magnetic aura, magnetic surge, magnetic wave, ring of earth, swirling wind)
    • Without forgetting about barrier access (crippling shield, stone shift, magnetic shield), boons (protection, vigor, stability), conditions (weakness, blind, chill, cripple), aura (frost aura), hard CCs... etc.
    • Even elementalist's ability to condi cleanse options are underestimated granted that at any given moment you can have up to 4 cleansing skills sloted (Ice elemental's crashing wave, cleansing fire, ether renewal, cleansing wave, magnetic wave, healing rain)

    I doubt there is another core profession with this many active defense skills and effects available in game, maybe elementalist relying on heal burst isn't it's only option to stay alive. I would say that the reason build disappear is often narrowmindness, people focusing on a single aspect that proved to work well at a moment and forgetting that there is many other aspects that only wait to be exploited.

    NB.: Traitlines and elite specs only had more to this list.

    As I stated in past comments, the CD is way to high on defensive skills, the downtime between them is too great to allow a smooth transaction not requiring a huge investment in healing power, on top of that conjure casting time makes them a liability that requires precise "foresight" from the player, where a player on other professions can afford to be at ease by simply looking one step ahead....an ele player must see 3-4 steps in the future for equall or just about better results.

    Not even I after 8k hrs spent on ele can look that far ahead in the future and plan my next move accordingly, that's why it's rare for me to lose to an ele player, players that make ele appear OP are as rare as white flies .

    There is no more arcane/fire celestial d/d or "immortal" Tempest, what you see now is 100% pure skill, again I consistently lose to the same eles I known for years....certainly I don't lose against Tom or Jerry who started ele few months ago and same cannot be said for other professions, few months is all you need to become a threat...maybe not serious threat but still one nevertheless.

    On paper and by word of mouth it seems as ele is the most OP class while having this and that but in practice it takes few days for new players to realize all they heard on the forum about ele was horse manure.

    People always try to shift the focus on the ability to stay alive..well good for you I guess but...I can play something like mender SA thief and never die too, good good but now can you actually kill anything?...d/f...d/f...d/f yeah we get it although if it was really that easy I believe that gold/silver rank would be populated by d/f eles and not by guardians/necros am I wrong?

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @foste.3098 said:
    One thing i will never understand about the feb mega patch is why did they nerf everything across the board? Why were skills/traits that had never been an issue since the games launch gotten nerfed?
    For example eviscerate has always had a scaling of 2.0/2.5/3.0 depending on adrenaline, so why change it? There are huge number of skills like that that got changed in pvp/wvw seemingly for the sake of slowing down the game, or reducing power creep. But in reality the reason for the powercreep and the fast time to kill was not that skills had to much scaling (although there were outliers) but that skills had become overbloated.

    For a good example look at bull's charge: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bull's_Charge
    Note the path of fire pre-patch of August 08, 2017, the skill got a triple damage buff and became an evade. Before hand the skill was a long knockdown, a long gap closer/gap creator, and a leap finisher that dealt slightly higher damage than 1st skill in the greatsword auto attack chain; all in all a an al-round useful and good skill, so why the kitten make it an evade and a 2nd stage eviscerate burst in addition to all the utility it had before?
    This is just the most clear example of skill bloating that lead to the powercreep but there are countless cases like that. So if the issue is idiotic bloating of skills why then blanket nerf damage across the board, leave the bloated skill design, and never follow through on further balance when it is clear that there are massive issues still?

    The dumbest part is if they wait to release the new expansion before deciding to actually do some balance, because that way the new elite spec are doomed to ether be broken op or broken useless since they are being set up upon broken foundation.

    For CMC the plan was to apply a ground level foundation and then smooth things over, he did foresee and openly admit that many builds would end up being OP or UP after the patch but that everything would have been solved with follow up patches...that never came to be.

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2021

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Archer.4362 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Don't you think that's an heavily biased argument you got there? Just from core and without even including traits, elementalist got the ability to equip defensive mean amongst:

    • invuln (Obsidian flesh, mist form, fortify)
    • block (arcane shield)
    • instant mobility often coupled with dodge frame (lightning flash, burning speed, burning retreat, Lightning leap, Fiery whirl, fiery rush, earthen rush, updraft)
    • Reflect/block missiles (magnetic aura, magnetic surge, magnetic wave, ring of earth, swirling wind)
    • Without forgetting about barrier access (crippling shield, stone shift, magnetic shield), boons (protection, vigor, stability), conditions (weakness, blind, chill, cripple), aura (frost aura), hard CCs... etc.
    • Even elementalist's ability to condi cleanse options are underestimated granted that at any given moment you can have up to 4 cleansing skills sloted (Ice elemental's crashing wave, cleansing fire, ether renewal, cleansing wave, magnetic wave, healing rain)

    I doubt there is another core profession with this many active defense skills and effects available in game, maybe elementalist relying on heal burst isn't it's only option to stay alive. I would say that the reason build disappear is often narrowmindness, people focusing on a single aspect that proved to work well at a moment and forgetting that there is many other aspects that only wait to be exploited.

    NB.: Traitlines and elite specs only had more to this list.

    Now of all the ones you have mentioned tell me how many can be used in the same build. I answer you 1.

    you can have multiple locks but only use 1 that is feasible.

    Only 1 what?

    I mean, unless you didn't really read properly, I said that all these options were available to use. Just slot earth shield you'll have 1 invuln, 1 reflect, ton of barrier and protect. Use focus to get another invuln, projectile block, projectile reflect and condi cleanse. Use dagger and you'll enjoy 2 evade skills and projectile block. We are at 1 MH weapon, 1 off hand weapon and a single utility skill slot used here. Yet that's already 2 invuln, 2 reflects, 2 evade skills, a projectile block on 6 s CD, barrier, cleanse 3 condi, weakness output and boon prot access. What more could we get from 1 elite, 1 heal skill, 2 utility skills and a bunch of traits? 8 conditions cleansed with ether renewal? Another invuln with mist form? 3 conditions cleansed from cleansing fire? A 5 seconds CD evade skill on fiery greatsword? What would that make? 3 invuln, 2 reflect, a projectile block, 3 evade skills, 14 condition cleansed throught 3 skills used, weakness and protection?

    You're free to build how you want, thinking that only a single option is valid is a lock you put on yourself, not a lock that ANet put on you. In fact just using D/F prove your argument wrong.

    You forgot to mention skill and utility CD, for new players :

    1) Mistform - 75s CD
    2) Obsdidian Flesh - 60s CD
    3) Conjure Earth shield - 60s CD
    4) Fiery Greatsword - 180s CD

    This is more than enough to prove how wrong you are...unless we want to start comparing a d/f ele with the all defenses possible to a core necro MM and see where we can go from there

    P.S conjure earth can be picked by enemy too for the unaware

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Loboling.5293Loboling.5293 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2021

    I posted this to another thread, but I figure it belongs here. These are my suggested changes for the next PvP balance patch.

    The following changes:

    Warrior:
    Headbutt (0.8)
    Bull charge (0.6)
    Hammer 5 (0.4)
    Ground stomps (zerker one and physical stunbreak one) (0.3)

    Guardian
    Hammer 4 (0.6)
    Spirit hammer (0.3)
    Spirit sword (-1 hit)
    Virtue burning proc (+1 hit required per interval)

    Revenant:
    Glint elite knockback (0.5)
    Shiro elite (0.4)
    Staff 5 (0.3)

    Ranger
    Axe 4 (0.8)

    Engineer
    Holo elite (0.5)
    Nerf holo 1 PvP by 20%
    Holo 5 (0.3)
    Scrapper explosion gyro (0.8)
    Big ol' bomb (0.8)

    Thief:
    Daredevil elite (0.3, 0.3, 0.6)

    Elementalist
    Focus water 5 (0.3)
    Meteor shower no longer reduced dmg per hit in PvP (no -20% per hit)
    Weaver barrier skill (-20% barrier)

    Necromancer
    Reaper elite (0.4)
    Minion elite (0.3)

    Mesmer:
    Greatsword 5 (0.3)
    Chrono elite (0.2, 0.3, 0.5)
    Pistol 5 (0.3)

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    You forgot to mention skill and utility CD, for new players :

    1) Mistform - 75s CD
    2) Obsdidian Flesh - 60s CD
    3) Conjure Earth shield - 60s CD
    4) Fiery Greatsword - 180s CD

    This is more than enough to prove how wrong you are...unless we want to start comparing a d/f ele with the all defenses possible to a core necro MM and see where we can go from there

    P.S conjure earth can be picked by enemy too for the unaware

    Sure do it, give all the defense possible to a core necro MM. I mean If it's a "MM" it probably won't take to long of your time anyway.

    You're pointing out CDs, I'm pointing out that you actually have many choice of skills that can all be taken together. Look, that's Ele D/F if you want "CDs":

    • 2 dodges and easy access to vigor for a 50% endurance regen rate increase (allowing the elementalist to dodge 3 time where the necromancer would dodge 2 times. You won't disagree with me here right?)
    • Burning speed evade skill on 15s CD
    • Earthen rush evade skill on 18s CD
    • Shocking aura on 25s CD (not really a true damage avoidance skill, but quite annoying for the attacker)
    • Swirling wind 6s projectile destruction on 30s CD
    • Magnetic wave 3s projectile reflection on 25s CD (+ 3 condi cleanse)
    • Earthen ring Block missiles on a 6s CD.
    • Obsidian flesh 3s invuln on 60s CD.
    • Gale 3s knockdown.
    • Convergence 3s weakness on 8s CD.
    • Comet 2s daze on 25s CD.

    That was just D/F alone (no trait, no utility).
    It's overkill but I could add like you said:

    • Earthshield and it's various skills on 60s CD (but well if you manage to pick your second bundle the invuln is on 30s CD)
    • Fiery GS and it's various skills on 120s CD (fiery wirlwind still having 5 second CD when you wield the conjured weapon)
    • mist form 75s CD
    • Arcane shield 3 blocks on 45s CD
    • Signet of air area blindness 25s CD.
    • Gliph of storm: Sandstorm 11 pulse of area blindness over 10s on 40s CD.

    NB.: If an enemy can use your conjured weapons then it's a bug that ANet need to fix not a feature. But I'm pretty sure it's not the case.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    This is a thread that I wrote in pieces and mostly 6 month ago, and decided to post close to the anniversary of the Feb 25th mega-patch of 2020. The point of this thread is to showcase various errors in that patch that to date have not really been addressed, and have now evolved within the meta to result in some noticeable problems in the gameplay. This thread also exists to highlight some of the good ideas from the patch that proved successful in improving gameplay. Most of this also applies to WvW.

    1. Downstate was never updated to match the changes in damage. ( Oversight )

    A side effect of damage being reduced across the board is that downstate generally now lasts noticeably longer, and cleaving out a downed target can be a losing game in the presence of support specs. It seems that downstate was just never really accounted for when factoring in the DPS reductions, and this has had some serious repercussions.

    -”Support Balls” where multiple support/aoe damage hybrid builds ball together can be all but unkillable if they work together, because they can just instantly revive each other. This has proven an effective strategy in AT s, and is an extremely easy strategy to execute.
    -Traits that help with resurrection are now a lot stronger and can at times pretty much instantly revive someone. Blood necro is especially strong at this.
    -People in general staying in downstate for much longer than they previously would seems to hurt the flow of the game much more than anything. It also greatly increases the “Team rallybot” problem, where a teamfight can be won not by who plays better but by which team brought more stomp+revive options. “Build wars” aren’t fun.

    Possible fixes:
    -Consider reducing the HP pool of downstate, or the HP gained during revives by at least 10%
    -Consider nerfing traits/skills that aid in revival

    2. Pet / Summon / Spirits HP and stats were never updated to match the changes in damage. ( Oversight )

    “Pets” such as spirit summons, Necromancer minions, and other summoned “Adds” were never updated to reflect the changes in DPS. The most noticeable of this being their health pool. This means that builds that could previously be countered much easier by simply killing the adds ( Kalla Renegade and Minion master are two notable examples ) now take a lot longer to take down. It also results in various implementations of the “run away/sustain while pets play the game for me” ""“strategy”"" which are never good for the game.

    Possible fixes:
    -Just reduce the base stats of all pets/summons to match the damage reduction from Feb 25th 2020, and the inherent counterplay to these types of builds will be restored. This one is a pretty easy solution, as none of these builds were especially effective pre-patch.

    3. Poor visual tells and poor balancing of the "Cast time + Effect" tradeoff continues to be one of the biggest balance problems plaguing GW2 PvP.

    One of the good things about the Feb25th patch was that it did focus on some level of the concept that "Big damage should come from big tells." Unfortunately, it just didn't do enough. This continues to be the biggest issue with GW2 PvP, and why so many builds and skills that would otherwise be fine feel extremely frustrating to play against or feel very gimmicky to play due to the fact that a large portion of the damage comes from abilities that have very low cast times and/or poor quality visual tells. There's also the problem of big AoE abilties casting as fast as single target abilities, while doing either the same or even more damage. The result of this is a lot of mindless "Stand on point, spam AoEs" builds continue to dominate in conquest.

    A good example of this done right would be looking at the game SMITE by Hirez. All abilities have clear animations. You can easily understand what abilities are being used from a fair distance away. The vast majority of the most powerful abilities have a noticeable windup time to give players a chance to react. There are many reasons why Smite has a pro league and GW2 doesn't, and this one of them.

    Possible fixes
    -This issue is pretty self explanatory. Less damage coming from invisible passive sources, more coming from clearly recognizable abilities. This is something the patch did right, but just didn't do enough.
    -Consider adding a system of glowing skill symbols for certain abilities that appear over a characters head, similar to what existed for many skills ( Such as Ressurection signet ) from GW1. These "extra animations" Could be toggled on/off in player options.
    -Certain visual tells actually get blocked by damage text depending on your settings. This is a considerable oversight. Consider allowing players better control of the UI so this doesn't happen as often.
    -Consider giving more AoE skills the "Shackling wave" Treatment: IE, increase the cast time by double, and then increase the damage proportionate to the cast time increase in PvE to make up for the DPS loss so the change doesn't hurt PvE-only players. Having tons of AoE abilities that can be quickly cast in succession due to all of them being <1s casting time is one of the biggest factors in GW2 that causes the game to feel like the gameplay is "spammy".
    -"Reveal on hit" instead of "Reveal on cast" as a stealth mechanic is extremely controversial.
    -Consider giving stability a noticeable visual tell. This boon is easily the most important buff in PvP, and yet it has no visual tell at all. This forces players to constantly check their targets status bar. As a basic example from smite, CC immune players gain a golden VFX to their model.

    4. The problems behind Condition damage were not directly addressed.

    When it comes to power damage, the Feb 25th patch generally hit the mark: Spike damage needed to come down, because oneshots were way too easy as a result of the previous two expansions massive powercreep. However when it comes to how condition damage works, the changes that were mostly the reduction of passive stacks and increase to cooldowns didn’t quite touch on what specifically causes condi builds to be oppressive in PvP.

    To put it simply, the real issue with conditions is that they have three upsides to two downsides.
    Downsides: 1. Damage over time is inferior to instant damage 2. Can be removed/transferred.
    Upsides: 1. Damage is overall higher 2. Stat advantage ( Only 1 stat required -condition damage- VS 3 stats -Power, Precision, Ferocity- ) 3. Condi abilities generally have low visual tells and/or are heavily carried by invisible passives and AoE spam.

    The Feb 25th patch didn’t address this disparity at all, and instead tried to mask it with random numbers nerfs and dartboard cooldown hits. The result is that condi builds don’t really feel like they have seen any improvement in gameplay over the last year at all, and still for the most part come down to build wars instead of skill.

    Possible fixes:
    -To put it simply, either one of the upsides of condition damage should be reduced, or conditions need a new downside.
    -IMO the best solution is unfortunately the one that requires the most work: Condi skills should have the same level of animated tells and cast times as Power based skills. Getting hit with invisible passives and fast casting unblockable AoEs is probably what most people dislike about condi builds the most. In other words, see problem #3.
    -A band-aid solution is to increase the number of conditions removed by most condi clears by one. This isn’t the best solution by any means, but it's relatively easy to implement.

    5. Not all CC s are created equal, and they haven’t really received the post-rework treatment that most expected. This has resulted in most CC skills being either a lot stronger or weaker than they should be

    The basic change to CC in GW2 that came along Feb 25th is something I personally found favorable. Reducing stability and stunbreaks meant people actually had to actively try to avoid CC ( As opposed to just running around with 10 billion stacks of stab and never having to learn what the tells are for CC skills ), while removing the damage from CC also meant that CC now had to be used as a part of a skill combo than as a free kill when it lands.

    That being said, the main oversight here is this rework made it so CC that takes a long time to cast and have huge animations are not nearly as strong as they once were, while CC that have poor visual tells or comes with additional benefits such as being multi-hit in a huge AoE, unblockable, or even unevadeable got a huge indirect buff. So yet again, see problem #3. This disparity has not been well addressed over the last year, leading more and more builds to gravitate towards CC spam of unevadeables and unblockables. Gale, Dragon’s Maw, Shock aura, Sleight of Hand, and Darkrazor's Daring are just a few example skills/mechanics that are now much stronger than they need to be. Meanwhile, certain elite CC with huge tells like PLB still seem underwhelming.

    Possible fixes:
    -Consider removing the mechanic of unevadeable CCs from the game entirely. Unblockable CCs already perform the job of being able to break through block-spam, so unevadeable CCs don't really add anything to the game other than to further encourage the "Stand on point, spam AoEs" cheese-strategy.
    -Severely tone down CC s that have no visual tell, or give them a visual tell.
    -Consider “gain stability for 2s when you break a stun” a default mechanic of all stun breaks, similar to the trait “Glaring Resolve” minus the heal ( You only get the stab if you are actually CC-d when you use a stunbreak skill ). What this does is cut down on the effectiveness of CC spam, without the problems cause by “On demand” stability.

    6. While sustain was brought down to match the damage reduction, Indirect sources of sustain really were not.

    Many players warned before the patch went live that indirect sources of sustain such as barrier-spam and Necro lifeforce were not really being touched as much as they should. A year later, things have slightly improved, but this issue has overall proven to be a noticeable side effect. This can also result in a lot of builds that are better at bunkering than they should, because they gain a source of sustain that can be easily spammed. "Decap" builds are a solid example.

    Possible fixes
    -Skills and traits that have no ( Or an extremely low ) ICD tend to be the biggest offenders.
    -Pay close attention to bunker builds and what enables them. Too much bunker leads to an extremely stale meta.
    -Continue to monitor indirect forms of sustain that add more health but don't technically "Heal".
    -New players tend to have problems with skills like Defiant stance ( Warrior ) or Infused light ( Rev ) that convert incoming damage into healing. While it's easy to tell these players to "gitgud", and in many ways it really is a L2P issue, it's also another case of problem #3. The visual tell on these skills just aren't good enough to match how serious of a skill they are, to the point where it is easier to notice them by looking at their status-bar than their player model. The stats ( Cooldown/Duration ) on these skills and how they function are fine, but consider adding a brighter glow to them to help the noobs out.

    7. "Just increase the cooldown" didn't work at all.

    See thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97262/why-increasing-cooldowns-does-not-reduce-spam-and-can-even-make-spam-worse#latest

    Most of what I warned about in that thread has come to pass. The most effective method to kill someone in the game right now is to +1 them. While this has always been true, it's far easier now since the chances of two players engaged in an on point 1v1 being out of cooldowns is noticeably higher.

    Possible fixes
    -Consider why a skill is overpowered before nerfing it. More often than not, the cooldown has little to do with it.
    -In the case of GW2 especially, most skills that ended up getting a cooldown nerf actually have a cast-time problem rather than a cooldown problem.
    -In other words, see problem #3.

    I basically agree with this whole thing. A few things I'd like to add, one of which is a disagreement of sorts.
    To condition damage stacks: I think reducing the stacks of conditions was a good step, however some things weren't touched at all (i.g. burning proccs from guardians per skill as well as the passive trait's threshold for the attacks to apply burning). A few things would need to occur as well in tandem with lowering the stacks (per the amount of conditions applied, cooldown of said skill, etc) such as increased/decreased uptime using an example.

    To condition damage downsides: I agree completely with this. One thing I also suggested was doing what they changed way back then, and one of the main reasons why some condition damage builds are still highly oppressive after said change: in PvP and WvW only, place burning and poison back to 1 stack only. By doing this, a lot of the stacks and uptimes changes would not need to be changed, as well as the re-introduction of the one boon that mitigated condition damage in the past, Regeneration. As it stands now, Regen is very niche, and doesn't do much to mitigate much condition damage with burn and poison the way it is now.

    Other than that, honestly we share the same mindset on a lot of things. Very good and well thought out post.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • foste.3098foste.3098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2021

    @Axl.8924 said:
    Question then do you remember how druid was when it was first released?

    I remember that the cele avatar skills had absurd base healing values with low healing power scaling, that staff was a dumb aa spaming weapon with a mobility skill- ancestral grace which was an evade a heal and a blast, that lunar impact was a 2 sec daze, that cele avatar had 10 sec cd.
    I also remember that the biggest issue about druid itself was the druidic clarity & celestial shadow traits which together gave a easy way to kite during a fight by entering avatar -> dropping lunar impact -> exiting avatar which took less than a second and ensured the druid could leisurely rest himself before reengaging or just running away.

    I also remember that the dumbest part of it all were the pets which were either overtuned - smokescale which hit like a truck with every skill, or just badly designed and overtuned - bristilback which had a command skill that was a oneshot at close range but missed every single shot against targets that were not hugging the pet, same with its rain of spikes skill which missed every spike and did nothing unless a enemy was standing on top of the pet in which case it was an instagb.
    I also recall how most other ranger pets were total kitten by comparison and how they are unable to even hit a moving target, which is still true today hence why you almost always see Hot or Pof pets being used in pvp/wvw with the exception of birds and cats which are the only 2 core pet families that can reliably hit moving enemies.

    So what's your point on druid? did you just raise it because of my icon?

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @foste.3098 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    Question then do you remember how druid was when it was first released?

    I remember that the cele avatar skills had absurd base healing values with low healing power scaling, that staff was a dumb aa spaming weapon with a mobility skill- ancestral grace which was an evade a heal and a blast, that lunar impact was a 2 sec daze, that cele avatar had 10 sec cd.
    I also remember that the biggest issue about druid itself was the druidic clarity & celestial shadow traits which together gave a easy way to kite during a fight by entering avatar -> dropping lunar impact -> exiting avatar which took less than a second and ensured the druid could leisurely rest himself before reengaging or just running away.

    I also remember that the dumbest part of it all were the pets which were either overtuned - smokescale which hit like a truck with every skill, or just badly designed and overtuned - bristilback which had a command skill that was a oneshot at close range but missed every single shot against targets that were not hugging the pet, same with its rain of spikes skill which missed every spike and did nothing unless a enemy was standing on top of the pet in which case it was an instagb.
    I also recall how most other ranger pets were total kitten by comparison and how they are unable to even hit a moving target, which is still true today hence why you almost always see Hot or Pof pets being used in pvp/wvw with the exception of birds and cats which are the only 2 core pet families that can reliably hit moving enemies.

    So what's your point on druid? did you just raise it because of my icon?

    Well i did ask because of the icon and you mention gs which made me think of gs which people complain about on rangers with extremely useful counter attack .

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2021

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    You forgot to mention skill and utility CD, for new players :

    1) Mistform - 75s CD
    2) Obsdidian Flesh - 60s CD
    3) Conjure Earth shield - 60s CD
    4) Fiery Greatsword - 180s CD

    This is more than enough to prove how wrong you are...unless we want to start comparing a d/f ele with the all defenses possible to a core necro MM and see where we can go from there

    P.S conjure earth can be picked by enemy too for the unaware

    Sure do it, give all the defense possible to a core necro MM. I mean If it's a "MM" it probably won't take to long of your time anyway.

    You're pointing out CDs, I'm pointing out that you actually have many choice of skills that can all be taken together. Look, that's Ele D/F if you want "CDs":

    • 2 dodges and easy access to vigor for a 50% endurance regen rate increase (allowing the elementalist to dodge 3 time where the necromancer would dodge 2 times. You won't disagree with me here right?)
    • Burning speed evade skill on 15s CD
    • Earthen rush evade skill on 18s CD
    • Shocking aura on 25s CD (not really a true damage avoidance skill, but quite annoying for the attacker)
    • Swirling wind 6s projectile destruction on 30s CD
    • Magnetic wave 3s projectile reflection on 25s CD (+ 3 condi cleanse)
    • Earthen ring Block missiles on a 6s CD.
    • Obsidian flesh 3s invuln on 60s CD.
    • Gale 3s knockdown.
    • Convergence 3s weakness on 8s CD.
    • Comet 2s daze on 25s CD.

    That was just D/F alone (no trait, no utility).
    It's overkill but I could add like you said:

    • Earthshield and it's various skills on 60s CD (but well if you manage to pick your second bundle the invuln is on 30s CD)
    • Fiery GS and it's various skills on 120s CD (fiery wirlwind still having 5 second CD when you wield the conjured weapon)
    • mist form 75s CD
    • Arcane shield 3 blocks on 45s CD
    • Signet of air area blindness 25s CD.
    • Gliph of storm: Sandstorm 11 pulse of area blindness over 10s on 40s CD.

    NB.: If an enemy can use your conjured weapons then it's a bug that ANet need to fix not a feature. But I'm pretty sure it's not the case.

    The CDs mean everything to me, anything above 50s CD is excessive and clearly overnerfed , it's too risky and not worth to play "high risk builds" that rely on long CD defensive rotations between one burst and another and otherwise...the CD would be sort of justified if the burst would come from range which is not the ele case, a class mostly forced at melee range.

    Logic dictates that melee builds should have shorter CD on defensive skills...not longer which is the case for most ranged builds, you listing all the defensive utilities/skills of ele mean very little when it's the ele player the one who need to push to apply pressure ( unless you talk about PvP where you just sit on the point making things easier )

    Those players who can make ele appear OP are truly praiseworthy, they can make something work with very little, to juggle between conjures, weaver rotations and kiting while having a mere 13k HP is not easy feat, not as easy as pressing F1 3-5-4 or elite 1 spam, those ele players do all that at melee range with no ranged option available other than 2 CC to get close and set up combos after careful planning

    You have taken this defensive stance like elementalist is easier to play than necro while being more survivable and doing more dmg, none of those are arguably true instead we can see the actual opposite happening

    This is quite funny though, it reminds me of what was happening years ago with necro, long before the whole buffing process started, we had players like : @Nos and @Zombify claiming that necro was fine and players simply had to learn to play....fast forward and we have things like core necro, scourge and reaper, that's all fine good but now we have those same necro players claiming that ele is fine...as long as you play like a Top 100 AT player...isn't that hypocritical?

    Ele is fine and strong as long as you are : @Grimjack or @Blamthrax or @Boyce or someone else at that level of dedication isn't it funny though? I guess necro should have been left at a level where only players at the same level of @Nos could make it work.

    After 8k hrs I can't make ele work like that anymore in PvP...maybe some of you in this thread can show the forum how it is done

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    You have taken this defensive stance like elementalist is easier to play than necro while being more survivable and doing more dmg, none of those are arguably true instead we can see the actual opposite happening

    I didn't. I said that your argument were biased and that elementalist have many more way to deal with damage than just poor plain healing sustain.

    To the plain and objective facts that I deliver to you (I mean thoses skills are there right?) you just oppose subjective arguments. I won't disagree if you say that more isn't necessarily better but I won't agree with your stance that somehow the elementalist is more impacted by healing nerf than any other professions (It doesn't mean that it's less impacted, but it's not more impacted).

    You often ask players to be "honest", be honest and face the fact that the elementalist is just loaded with defensive skills that players might not be using optimally because they favor going for the "kill" more than keeping a point caped.

    NB.: You're the one obsessed by necromancer, my argument stand for any of the other 8 professions not just "necro".

  • gmmg.9210gmmg.9210 Member ✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    This is a thread that I wrote in pieces and mostly 6 month ago, and decided to post close to the anniversary of the Feb 25th mega-patch of 2020. The point of this thread is to showcase various errors in that patch that to date have not really been addressed, and have now evolved within the meta to result in some noticeable problems in the gameplay. This thread also exists to highlight some of the good ideas from the patch that proved successful in improving gameplay. Most of this also applies to WvW.

    1. Downstate was never updated to match the changes in damage. ( Oversight )

    A side effect of damage being reduced across the board is that downstate generally now lasts noticeably longer, and cleaving out a downed target can be a losing game in the presence of support specs. It seems that downstate was just never really accounted for when factoring in the DPS reductions, and this has had some serious repercussions.

    -”Support Balls” where multiple support/aoe damage hybrid builds ball together can be all but unkillable if they work together, because they can just instantly revive each other. This has proven an effective strategy in AT s, and is an extremely easy strategy to execute.
    -Traits that help with resurrection are now a lot stronger and can at times pretty much instantly revive someone. Blood necro is especially strong at this.
    -People in general staying in downstate for much longer than they previously would seems to hurt the flow of the game much more than anything. It also greatly increases the “Team rallybot” problem, where a teamfight can be won not by who plays better but by which team brought more stomp+revive options. “Build wars” aren’t fun.

    Possible fixes:
    -Consider reducing the HP pool of downstate, or the HP gained during revives by at least 10%
    -Consider nerfing traits/skills that aid in revival

    2. Pet / Summon / Spirits HP and stats were never updated to match the changes in damage. ( Oversight )

    “Pets” such as spirit summons, Necromancer minions, and other summoned “Adds” were never updated to reflect the changes in DPS. The most noticeable of this being their health pool. This means that builds that could previously be countered much easier by simply killing the adds ( Kalla Renegade and Minion master are two notable examples ) now take a lot longer to take down. It also results in various implementations of the “run away/sustain while pets play the game for me” ""“strategy”"" which are never good for the game.

    Possible fixes:
    -Just reduce the base stats of all pets/summons to match the damage reduction from Feb 25th 2020, and the inherent counterplay to these types of builds will be restored. This one is a pretty easy solution, as none of these builds were especially effective pre-patch.

    3. Poor visual tells and poor balancing of the "Cast time + Effect" tradeoff continues to be one of the biggest balance problems plaguing GW2 PvP.

    One of the good things about the Feb25th patch was that it did focus on some level of the concept that "Big damage should come from big tells." Unfortunately, it just didn't do enough. This continues to be the biggest issue with GW2 PvP, and why so many builds and skills that would otherwise be fine feel extremely frustrating to play against or feel very gimmicky to play due to the fact that a large portion of the damage comes from abilities that have very low cast times and/or poor quality visual tells. There's also the problem of big AoE abilties casting as fast as single target abilities, while doing either the same or even more damage. The result of this is a lot of mindless "Stand on point, spam AoEs" builds continue to dominate in conquest.

    A good example of this done right would be looking at the game SMITE by Hirez. All abilities have clear animations. You can easily understand what abilities are being used from a fair distance away. The vast majority of the most powerful abilities have a noticeable windup time to give players a chance to react. There are many reasons why Smite has a pro league and GW2 doesn't, and this one of them.

    Possible fixes
    -This issue is pretty self explanatory. Less damage coming from invisible passive sources, more coming from clearly recognizable abilities. This is something the patch did right, but just didn't do enough.
    -Consider adding a system of glowing skill symbols for certain abilities that appear over a characters head, similar to what existed for many skills ( Such as Ressurection signet ) from GW1. These "extra animations" Could be toggled on/off in player options.
    -Certain visual tells actually get blocked by damage text depending on your settings. This is a considerable oversight. Consider allowing players better control of the UI so this doesn't happen as often.
    -Consider giving more AoE skills the "Shackling wave" Treatment: IE, increase the cast time by double, and then increase the damage proportionate to the cast time increase in PvE to make up for the DPS loss so the change doesn't hurt PvE-only players. Having tons of AoE abilities that can be quickly cast in succession due to all of them being <1s casting time is one of the biggest factors in GW2 that causes the game to feel like the gameplay is "spammy".
    -"Reveal on hit" instead of "Reveal on cast" as a stealth mechanic is extremely controversial.
    -Consider giving stability a noticeable visual tell. This boon is easily the most important buff in PvP, and yet it has no visual tell at all. This forces players to constantly check their targets status bar. As a basic example from smite, CC immune players gain a golden VFX to their model.

    4. The problems behind Condition damage were not directly addressed.

    When it comes to power damage, the Feb 25th patch generally hit the mark: Spike damage needed to come down, because oneshots were way too easy as a result of the previous two expansions massive powercreep. However when it comes to how condition damage works, the changes that were mostly the reduction of passive stacks and increase to cooldowns didn’t quite touch on what specifically causes condi builds to be oppressive in PvP.

    To put it simply, the real issue with conditions is that they have three upsides to two downsides.
    Downsides: 1. Damage over time is inferior to instant damage 2. Can be removed/transferred.
    Upsides: 1. Damage is overall higher 2. Stat advantage ( Only 1 stat required -condition damage- VS 3 stats -Power, Precision, Ferocity- ) 3. Condi abilities generally have low visual tells and/or are heavily carried by invisible passives and AoE spam.

    The Feb 25th patch didn’t address this disparity at all, and instead tried to mask it with random numbers nerfs and dartboard cooldown hits. The result is that condi builds don’t really feel like they have seen any improvement in gameplay over the last year at all, and still for the most part come down to build wars instead of skill.

    Possible fixes:
    -To put it simply, either one of the upsides of condition damage should be reduced, or conditions need a new downside.
    -IMO the best solution is unfortunately the one that requires the most work: Condi skills should have the same level of animated tells and cast times as Power based skills. Getting hit with invisible passives and fast casting unblockable AoEs is probably what most people dislike about condi builds the most. In other words, see problem #3.
    -A band-aid solution is to increase the number of conditions removed by most condi clears by one. This isn’t the best solution by any means, but it's relatively easy to implement.

    5. Not all CC s are created equal, and they haven’t really received the post-rework treatment that most expected. This has resulted in most CC skills being either a lot stronger or weaker than they should be

    The basic change to CC in GW2 that came along Feb 25th is something I personally found favorable. Reducing stability and stunbreaks meant people actually had to actively try to avoid CC ( As opposed to just running around with 10 billion stacks of stab and never having to learn what the tells are for CC skills ), while removing the damage from CC also meant that CC now had to be used as a part of a skill combo than as a free kill when it lands.

    That being said, the main oversight here is this rework made it so CC that takes a long time to cast and have huge animations are not nearly as strong as they once were, while CC that have poor visual tells or comes with additional benefits such as being multi-hit in a huge AoE, unblockable, or even unevadeable got a huge indirect buff. So yet again, see problem #3. This disparity has not been well addressed over the last year, leading more and more builds to gravitate towards CC spam of unevadeables and unblockables. Gale, Dragon’s Maw, Shock aura, Sleight of Hand, and Darkrazor's Daring are just a few example skills/mechanics that are now much stronger than they need to be. Meanwhile, certain elite CC with huge tells like PLB still seem underwhelming.

    Possible fixes:
    -Consider removing the mechanic of unevadeable CCs from the game entirely. Unblockable CCs already perform the job of being able to break through block-spam, so unevadeable CCs don't really add anything to the game other than to further encourage the "Stand on point, spam AoEs" cheese-strategy.
    -Severely tone down CC s that have no visual tell, or give them a visual tell.
    -Consider “gain stability for 2s when you break a stun” a default mechanic of all stun breaks, similar to the trait “Glaring Resolve” minus the heal ( You only get the stab if you are actually CC-d when you use a stunbreak skill ). What this does is cut down on the effectiveness of CC spam, without the problems cause by “On demand” stability.

    6. While sustain was brought down to match the damage reduction, Indirect sources of sustain really were not.

    Many players warned before the patch went live that indirect sources of sustain such as barrier-spam and Necro lifeforce were not really being touched as much as they should. A year later, things have slightly improved, but this issue has overall proven to be a noticeable side effect. This can also result in a lot of builds that are better at bunkering than they should, because they gain a source of sustain that can be easily spammed. "Decap" builds are a solid example.

    Possible fixes
    -Skills and traits that have no ( Or an extremely low ) ICD tend to be the biggest offenders.
    -Pay close attention to bunker builds and what enables them. Too much bunker leads to an extremely stale meta.
    -Continue to monitor indirect forms of sustain that add more health but don't technically "Heal".
    -New players tend to have problems with skills like Defiant stance ( Warrior ) or Infused light ( Rev ) that convert incoming damage into healing. While it's easy to tell these players to "gitgud", and in many ways it really is a L2P issue, it's also another case of problem #3. The visual tell on these skills just aren't good enough to match how serious of a skill they are, to the point where it is easier to notice them by looking at their status-bar than their player model. The stats ( Cooldown/Duration ) on these skills and how they function are fine, but consider adding a brighter glow to them to help the noobs out.

    7. "Just increase the cooldown" didn't work at all.

    See thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97262/why-increasing-cooldowns-does-not-reduce-spam-and-can-even-make-spam-worse#latest

    Most of what I warned about in that thread has come to pass. The most effective method to kill someone in the game right now is to +1 them. While this has always been true, it's far easier now since the chances of two players engaged in an on point 1v1 being out of cooldowns is noticeably higher.

    Possible fixes
    -Consider why a skill is overpowered before nerfing it. More often than not, the cooldown has little to do with it.
    -In the case of GW2 especially, most skills that ended up getting a cooldown nerf actually have a cast-time problem rather than a cooldown problem.
    -In other words, see problem #3.

    TL;DR- ANET needs to hire some animators.

    Imagine there's no condi

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2021

    @gmmg.9210 said:

    TL;DR- ANET needs to hire some animators.

    It's a bit more complicated than just animations. It's also cast times and a lack of meaningful risk-reward factor in way too many abilities, which leads to "spammy" gameplay.

    Anet seems to not want to accept the fact that having huge AoEs with under 1s cast time is bad for the game, and instead tries to cover up said bad skill design by slapping longer cooldowns on them, which does not work and just leads to zerg-meta. They also need to accept the fact that mechanics that have low counterplay are very difficult, if not impossible to balance. Something that has no counter either has the numbers to win, and thus immediately becomes broken-tier in the meta because there is nothing to stop it from winning, or it does not have the numbers to win and thus does not see any play. This is the crux as to why games like Smite have more fun PvP than GW2. No, it's not because that game was designed for PvP. It's because the devs understand that everything needs counterplay or else you literally cannot balance your game, and it devolves into a spamfest of poorly designed busted abilities.

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2021

    Lack Of Communication Is What Killed this game.

    No Discussion On what was Next
    No Discussion On What they were planning to address/doing
    No Respond from any of the staff when they ghosted us for a year after the huge update
    No Respond when asked On Discord/Stream about what was happening
    No Respond to all the Bots/Hacks/Rascal slurs that were going unban
    No Respond to Any of the "follow up's" they planned on doing
    No Respond to Any of the "tournaments" they planned on doing for us

    Overall what really KILLED this game for a majority of the top end players that actually took the game serious was the lack of not knowing what the heck was happening and why balance patch drops were happening every 3-6 months. Toward the Middle of Covid everything went downhill once Hacks/Bots were given a free pass for an entire year. It's beyond to late to "Fix" or "Update" this game to make it "enjoyable" for the players that enjoyed the amazing combat system they had to offer. Mind you I'm only talking about the SPvp issues and not even touching up on the WvW issues that has far more problems which has been also ignored longer then SPvp.

    My advise to the community would be to look into something else with a more promising future, rather to sink in time/effort on a good post like this that would probably get ignored.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2021

    @zoopop.5630 said:
    Lack Of Communication Is What Killed this game.

    No Discussion On what was Next
    No Discussion On What they were planning to address/doing
    No Respond from any of the staff when they ghosted us for a year after the huge update
    No Respond when asked On Discord/Stream about what was happening
    No Respond to all the Bots/Hacks/Rascal slurs that were going unban
    No Respond to Any of the "follow up's" they planned on doing
    No Respond to Any of the "tournaments" they planned on doing for us

    Lack of communication is annoying for sure, but it wouldn't be nearly as bad if their balance decisions and updates were actually good. I'd rather have a well maintained healthy meta and silent devs than vocal devs who do dartboard changes.

    And the meta right now is 100% Mindless AoE spam trash. 3v3 exposes just how bad it really is. Of course all builds are going to be AoE spam when AoE spam does just as much damage and casts just as fast as other abilities.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Loboling.5293 said:
    I posted this to another thread, but I figure it belongs here. These are my suggested changes for the next PvP balance patch.

    The following changes:

    Warrior:
    Headbutt (0.8)
    Bull charge (0.6)
    Hammer 5 (0.4)
    Ground stomps (zerker one and physical stunbreak one) (0.3)

    Guardian
    Hammer 4 (0.6)
    Spirit hammer (0.3)
    Spirit sword (-1 hit)
    Virtue burning proc (+1 hit required per interval)

    Revenant:
    Glint elite knockback (0.5)
    Shiro elite (0.4)
    Staff 5 (0.3)

    Ranger
    Axe 4 (0.8)

    Engineer
    Holo elite (0.5)
    Nerf holo 1 PvP by 20%
    Holo 5 (0.3)
    Scrapper explosion gyro (0.8)
    Big ol' bomb (0.8)

    Thief:
    Daredevil elite (0.3, 0.3, 0.6)

    Elementalist
    Focus water 5 (0.3)
    Meteor shower no longer reduced dmg per hit in PvP (no -20% per hit)
    Weaver barrier skill (-20% barrier)

    Necromancer
    Reaper elite (0.4)
    Minion elite (0.3)

    Mesmer:
    Greatsword 5 (0.3)
    Chrono elite (0.2, 0.3, 0.5)
    Pistol 5 (0.3)

    giving rev staff 0.3 coof would make it a nuke, as it can hit 5+ times and sometimes upwards of 8 or 9 hits.
    on the same boat ranger axe 4 hits 2 times so giving it 0.8 coof would make it hit harder then maul, maybe having the first hit deal some damage and return to pull, but
    the skill is kind of whack. VERY unreliable.
    Most CC skills dont need damage. Mesmer p5/gs5 for example are fine without damage. And I dislike how you wanna shove damage into skills like bulls-charge. As it will be do everything on low cd skill again. Maybe introducing damage to CC elites like grav well, chilled to the bone and laser first would be a step in the right direction.