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Some thoughts on balancing

Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited March 31, 2021 in PVP

Since this will be kind of a doomer post, I'll start with something positive:
I'm pleasantly surprised we got back to more frequent balance patches and actual communication. I honestly thought we'll get the silent treatment with maybe 1 balance patch every 6 month until pre-patch for EoD drops. I'm making this post because of that, this feedback might even get to the devs in some form.

The last few balance patches hit all the right targets. So there are no problems identifying problem builds. The way nerfs/adjustments are rolled out however, that I find extremely problematic.

Overnerfing:
Some overperforming builds just get cut in half, or literally chopped to pieces. Renegade and burnguard springs to mind, these builds were absolutely smitersbooned. Yes they were too strong, but they needed adjustments, not straight up deletion. Cutting effects/durations in half, tripling cooldowns... could we not? This is actually just creating problems on the long run. By deleting FoTM builds(and hurting builds with overlapping traits) you just give rise to new/old problematic builds, which noone even saw as a possibility few patches prior.

Be less radical with nerfing please, and consider rebuffing whenever you overnerf.

Balancing through removal of options:
Not actually balancing. "My arm hurts, guess I'll cut it off" - There is only so many times that you can pull this off before you run out of limbs. The passives gutted 14 months ago are still useless... they just got smitersbooned. Expertise and concentration amulets got removed, and a myriad of playstyles along with them. And ever since that infamous february patch, almost every patch we see more amulets go. Mender's and Marshal's are up next.

Don't! Please stop! Balance the builds causing the meta being slow. You created this situation by removing true support amulets and lowering damage to the level that support classes can outsustain it wearing bruiser amulets like menders. If anything I would go in the opposite direction, adding back healing mainstat/concentration amulets and nerfing the scaling with healing power on every ability in the game. That way supports would not be able to do damage(which would actually make people care not to overstack them), and would be reliant on boons. Not to mention the sustain of every bruiser would be hit aswell. We had metas like that, and they were more healthy than what we currently have.

Where the past year of balancing has led us:
If I look at the changes one by one from the past few patches, all of them seem to solve a problem. If I add them up and look at them togheter however, they create a new problem: We are running out of options. PvP is becoming bland and boring. PvE has way too many playstyles and builds that have no PvP counterpart anymore. I hope at least the pre-patch for EoD adds all of those back, not having most stat combos and passive traits (or whatever you rework them into) is dumbing PvP down to the level I can hardly tolerate anymore.

Comments

  • dDuff.3860dDuff.3860 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    Balancing through removal of options:
    Not actually balancing. "My arm hurts, guess I'll cut it off" - There is only so many times that you can pull this off before you run out of limbs. The passives gutted 14 months ago are still useless... they just got smitersbooned. Expertise and concentration amulets got removed, and a myriad of playstyles along with them. And ever since that infamous february patch, almost every patch we see more amulets go. Mender's and Marshal's are up next.

    I agree with that part. Most of the options removed were compensated by nothing, however i feel like, there are plenty of options to bring some builds back to life with jsut new runes and sigils.

    So for every removed thing one could wish one introduced thing. For example rune of perplexity from PvE can bring certain mesmers builds up, and even some other classes too.
    For example, take a look at trapper runes — this thing alone made burn DH build viable. It could get addressed first without actually killing the class in pvp with overwhelming nerfs.

    Regarding mender part — what if you change power stat to precision one, for example. This will lower the strenght level of bunkers to a certain degree, without killing the bunker/support part.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    Since this will be kind of a doomer post, I'll start with something positive:
    I'm pleasantly surprised we got back to more frequent balance patches and actual communication. I honestly thought we'll get the silent treatment with maybe 1 balance patch every 6 month until pre-patch for EoD drops. I'm making this post because of that, this feedback might even get to the devs in some form.

    The last few balance patches hit all the right targets. So there are no problems identifying problem builds. The way nerfs/adjustments are rolled out however, that I find extremely problematic.

    Overnerfing:
    Some overperforming builds just get cut in half, or literally chopped to pieces. Renegade and burnguard springs to mind, these builds were absolutely smitersbooned. Yes they were too strong, but they needed adjustments, not straight up deletion. Cutting effects/durations in half, tripling cooldowns... could we not? This is actually just creating problems on the long run. By deleting FoTM builds(and hurting builds with overlapping traits) you just give rise to new/old problematic builds, which noone even saw as a possibility few patches prior.

    Be less radical with nerfing please, and consider rebuffing whenever you overnerf.

    Balancing through removal of options:
    Not actually balancing. "My arm hurts, guess I'll cut it off" - There is only so many times that you can pull this off before you run out of limbs. The passives gutted 14 months ago are still useless... they just got smitersbooned. Expertise and concentration amulets got removed, and a myriad of playstyles along with them. And ever since that infamous february patch, almost every patch we see more amulets go. Mender's and Marshal's are up next.

    Don't! Please stop! Balance the builds causing the meta being slow. You created this situation by removing true support amulets and lowering damage to the level that support classes can outsustain it wearing bruiser amulets like menders. If anything I would go in the opposite direction, adding back healing mainstat/concentration amulets and nerfing the scaling with healing power on every ability in the game. That way supports would not be able to do damage(which would actually make people care not to overstack them), and would be reliant on boons. Not to mention the sustain of every bruister would be hit aswell. We had metas like that, and they were more healthy than what we currently have.

    Where the past year of balancing has led us:
    If I look at the changes one by one from the past few patches, all of them seem to solve a problem. If I add them up and look at them togheter however, they create a new problem: We are running out of options. PvP is becoming bland and boring. PvE has way too many playstyles and builds that have no PvP counterpart anymore. I hope at least the pre-patch for EoD adds all of those back, not having most stat combos and passive traits (or whatever you rework them into) is dumbing PvP down to the level I can hardly tolerate anymore.

    Without forgetting nerfs to shadow art..."nerf the scaling with healing power" ...sure...we do that after reworking defensive skills across the board and overall :

    1) Specs become "problematic" when a team wins official tournaments while running 3 iterations of the same class or when your typical PvP match comprise of 5 players out of 10 running same class
    2) Specs are not problamatic because some forum overlord lost his duel in the arena
    3) The GW2 community started the whole circle jerk of amulet removal, you all started this circus out of convenience :
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/103077/remove-knights-amulet and similar threads ; you all cried and cried until the specs you were losing to got removed...now people cry wolf...because their favourite build/class is being touched as well, it only hurts when it burns you am I right?

    Said years ago and will say it again : nerfs will eventually get back at you,and right now you're asking to nerf bruiser because of support specs...eventually "your class" would get nerfed even if it doesn't rely on healing power trust me

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Removing amuletts might not be the smartest move but pvp had always (only once not hot man that was so not fun) limited stats variaty, keep in mind eod is coming thus year and we don't know anything about the especs, but I am pretty sure there gonna be broken af, and not all but most builds that are brokenbunkers or decapper use menders or Marshall
    I would like to have a somewhat kinda playable meta till eod before we rly get into big balance steps

    To be fair, classes that are broken should not be balanced arround stats but we are in this meta since a while and removing the amuletts did work pretty well for the to strong builds that where out there, I would not like to see if cavalier Ranger would be still arround, you were tanky as kitten but still criting with the 8k's

    Imagine decap druid would run this now or scourge or guard with knight Amulett

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Avatar.3568 said:
    I would like to have a somewhat kinda playable meta till eod before we rly get into big balance steps

    Funny thing about this, we are still in the middle of fixing the chaos that the release of PoF caused. We never settled into a balanced state since 2017. Both vanilla and HoT saw a few reworks/rebalances simply aiming at changing things for the sake of change, to keep the game fresh. But since PoF came out, powercreep, reworks, more powercreep, and since last february it's just flailing around with the nerbat to get the leftovers escaping the initial weave.
    If we were to reach a meta with a semblance of balance, now is the time. Before the new expansion stirs things up big time. Even with the dumbing down of the trait system, and the removal of most stat combos, PvP balance will have to consider 9 new elite specialisations, things wont get easier or faster to manage once EoD is out. If we can't get balance now, we won't get it ever.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Necros and holos don't need buffs, but I do think thieves need a damage buff. Mesmers need a sustain buff.

    Honestly, I'd say just nerf holo and the various necro builds and don't touch anything else. Sort out the rest after the new elite specs are released.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Necros and holos don't need buffs, but I do think thieves need a damage buff. Mesmers need a sustain buff.

    Honestly, I'd say just nerf holo and the various necro builds and don't touch anything else. Sort out the rest after the new elite specs are released.

    Thief and mesmer do not need damage buffs, especially before dealing with SA and IH

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Burn Guardian and Renegade are still strong in PvP, just not as oppressively anti-fun over-performing as they were before.
    The people who died to Burn Dragonhunter before will still die to it.

  • mixxed.5862mixxed.5862 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't get your problem with removing Mender's. While build diversity is cool in an MMO we're talking about sPvP - a very specific game mode that gets insanely boring when half the players run a bunker build. Removing Mender's is the most effective and only viable way to fix that right now.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    removing menders will do absolutely nothing. ppl will switch to prot holo, avatar/ sage/ marshal ventari rev/ druid/ scourge/ tempest/ core guard. with the heal sigil essentially nothing will change, damage might be higher but these are still bunker builds so ppl will complain about higher damage bunkers. maybe some fruity paladin bunker bruisers will emerge from less represented classes. damage needs buff, some cds need lowered.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    removing menders will do absolutely nothing. ppl will switch to prot holo, avatar/ sage/ marshal ventari rev/ druid/ scourge/ tempest/ core guard. with the heal sigil essentially nothing will change, damage might be higher but these are still bunker builds so ppl will complain about higher damage bunkers. maybe some fruity paladin bunker bruisers will emerge from less represented classes. damage needs buff, some cds need lowered.

    They already said Marshall will go with menders, when they go

    Avatar and sage aren't nearly as bad, probably no one gonna use avatar because sage is better in every way but ye

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Avatar.3568 said:
    Removing amuletts might not be the smartest move but pvp had always (only once not hot man that was so not fun) limited stats variaty, keep in mind eod is coming thus year and we don't know anything about the especs, but I am pretty sure there gonna be broken af, and not all but most builds that are brokenbunkers or decapper use menders or Marshall
    I would like to have a somewhat kinda playable meta till eod before we rly get into big balance steps

    To be fair, classes that are broken should not be balanced arround stats but we are in this meta since a while and removing the amuletts did work pretty well for the to strong builds that where out there, I would not like to see if cavalier Ranger would be still arround, you were tanky as kitten but still criting with the 8k's

    Imagine decap druid would run this now or scourge or guard with knight Amulett

    EoD is coming 2022

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @Avatar.3568 said:
    I would like to have a somewhat kinda playable meta till eod before we rly get into big balance steps

    Funny thing about this, we are still in the middle of fixing the chaos that the release of PoF caused. We never settled into a balanced state since 2017. Both vanilla and HoT saw a few reworks/rebalances simply aiming at changing things for the sake of change, to keep the game fresh. But since PoF came out, powercreep, reworks, more powercreep, and since last february it's just flailing around with the nerbat to get the leftovers escaping the initial weave.
    If we were to reach a meta with a semblance of balance, now is the time. Before the new expansion stirs things up big time. Even with the dumbing down of the trait system, and the removal of most stat combos, PvP balance will have to consider 9 new elite specialisations, things wont get easier or faster to manage once EoD is out. If we can't get balance now, we won't get it ever.

    My problem with the Balance these days is that is done on AT level and its batting AT builds in the head, might be done correctly but some things lingered for far too long, this is probably good for the expansion as making a general baseline, but by just reducing stuff and not fixing old problems is just kicking the can for the future all the while there is less ways to play right now , which in turn just makes everyone bored, since there isn't anything new to be excited about .
    I also find issue with leaving some classes/elites to rot without giving them purpose to exist since they lack identity or worse elites overlap each other and one is clearly superior.
    First one that pops to mind is Chrono which got reworked 50 times for pve cause the didnt know what the kitten they want with it, when its played its on the slot of roamer assassin these days even though the one dodge miracle performs better, so what does chrono have, shield and aoe support wells so it should probably be a support/bruiser of some sort but noo lets leave it clunky and go against its core idea for whatever reason.
    Then we have the Berserker which that got nerfed because of trait changes to make spellbreaker a thing and then it got a rework that made it less clunky but it also broke its traits to fit an RP that does not function for PVP since oneshots are stupid but ok more damage might be playable , next patch nerf damage don't do kitten about the negatives that were introduced to get the damage. Now the playstyle revolves about kiting and thinking for every move you or the opponents make instead of you know going Berserk and fighting which the name implies. It needs some reason to exist idk roamer, teamfighter bunker killer or something, anything.
    Core ele, engi and rev. Ele just lacks something special that its elites have to bring it on par with them, I think they added retroactively a special skill on rev which would probably work on ele too or give core ele weapon swap of some sorts or conjure weapon, something that when taking the elites is lost. I mentioned Rev since they added a band aid but i don't think they ever intended rev to function well without elites so this one lacks a reason to be anywhere since the elites fill every niche better.
    Core engi has the elite tool belt slot but they kind of suck and are outright worse then the elites (Even though scrapper is kinda lacking on being special by being just engi++), so some touch ups here and there would be nice.
    I think the only class currently that has clear identity on all its specks is necro, every build revolves around fighting multiple opponents but in a different flavour, which also gives them some leeway to pick up a secondary position, so for example Reaper is great at +1 since it has the damage and cc to crack bunkers but it has bad 1v1, while core necro has good 1v1 these days but lacks the oomph of reaper in the teamfight damage department and scourge which is kitten POF area denial speck, but it can support which the other builds are not that great at.
    So it would be nice if all professions were more like necro and had distinct playstyles that all have their place and merits to be used.

  • @mixxed.5862 said:
    I don't get your problem with removing Mender's. While build diversity is cool in an MMO we're talking about sPvP - a very specific game mode that gets insanely boring when half the players run a bunker build. Removing Mender's is the most effective and only viable way to fix that right now.

    Or maybe just make damage worth playing.

    Still plenty of bunker-friendly amulets in a bunker-friendly meta.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.
    "You cannot learn a thing you think you know..."

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734

    Certainly hope they take your OP post to heart. Couldn't have written it better myself.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Necros and holos don't need buffs, but I do think thieves need a damage buff. Mesmers need a sustain buff.

    Honestly, I'd say just nerf holo and the various necro builds and don't touch anything else. Sort out the rest after the new elite specs are released.

    Thief and mesmer do not need damage buffs, especially before dealing with SA and IH

    None of them NEED damage buffs. The overperforming spammy easy damage professions need nerfs to bring them down with everything else more than anything.

    Have any of the last few mirage metabuilds even used IH? I use it on glass builds but then I sacrifice condi cleanse and a stun break and have to be much more careful with my playstle.

    And with the amount of aoe cleave from reapers, holos, and auramancer tempests clones die pretty quickly and can be easily los'd.

  • lovemghool.7613lovemghool.7613 Member ✭✭✭

    I do not believe in the balance approach that destroys options and build diversity and out right deletes specs from pvp with no compensation.

    And I certainly cannot believe in a balance team that takes its direction from select individuals on discord. What kind of professional credibility lends itself to a team and a company like that? what is wrong? is the team lacking in vision, in numbers, in capable hands or all the above?

  • Paradoxoglanis.1904Paradoxoglanis.1904 Member ✭✭✭✭

    With menders 1/3 of your stats are healing power. That should not be able to out sustain 1-2 players with 100% of their stats going to dps. Amulets and stats are not the problem, but removing them is the lazy "solution" that we will probably get.

  • Ronald McDonald.8165Ronald McDonald.8165 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @Bast.7253 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Necros and holos don't need buffs, but I do think thieves need a damage buff. Mesmers need a sustain buff.

    Honestly, I'd say just nerf holo and the various necro builds and don't touch anything else. Sort out the rest after the new elite specs are released.

    Thief and mesmer do not need damage buffs, especially before dealing with SA and IH

    None of them NEED damage buffs. The overperforming spammy easy damage professions need nerfs to bring them down with everything else more than anything.

    Have any of the last few mirage metabuilds even used IH? I use it on glass builds but then I sacrifice condi cleanse and a stun break and have to be much more careful with my playstle.

    And with the amount of aoe cleave from reapers, holos, and auramancer tempests clones die pretty quickly and can be easily los'd.

    Nah, no one plays with IH. Mirage doesn't need more damage, it needs more sustain. Faster cooldown on heals would be nice.

  • FrownyClown.8402FrownyClown.8402 Member ✭✭✭

    I think removing menders is a bit short-sighted. I also think lowering healing multipliers makes healing power worthless. Start buffing damage on weapon skills and nerf mender scourge. That is all. Lowering auto attack damage hurt a lot of the ability to apply consistent pressure in fights. Power ele felt it and so did thief. You basically have 1 or 2 burst skills and then mediocre damage for the rest of it.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    I think removing menders is a bit short-sighted. I also think lowering healing multipliers makes healing power worthless. Start buffing damage on weapon skills and nerf mender scourge. That is all. Lowering auto attack damage hurt a lot of the ability to apply consistent pressure in fights. Power ele felt it and so did thief. You basically have 1 or 2 burst skills and then mediocre damage for the rest of it.

    The damage having been lowered was a good step away from power-creeped one-shot metas.
    But sustain, AoE pressure, CC and condition damage still need to follow.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    I think removing menders is a bit short-sighted. I also think lowering healing multipliers makes healing power worthless. Start buffing damage on weapon skills and nerf mender scourge. That is all. Lowering auto attack damage hurt a lot of the ability to apply consistent pressure in fights. Power ele felt it and so did thief. You basically have 1 or 2 burst skills and then mediocre damage for the rest of it.

    The damage having been lowered was a good step away from power-creeped one-shot metas.
    But sustain, AoE pressure, CC and condition damage still need to follow.

    It wasnt. It replaced power creep with power dip. Which is the same, but in reverse, and much worse for the game. They completely overshot, and now we need to start increasing damage across the board.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @lovemghool.7613 said:
    I do not believe in the balance approach that destroys options and build diversity and out right deletes specs from pvp with no compensation.

    And I certainly cannot believe in a balance team that takes its direction from select individuals on discord. What kind of professional credibility lends itself to a team and a company like that? what is wrong? is the team lacking in vision, in numbers, in capable hands or all the above?

    Effectively balance becomes worst every time the balance team listens to the forum rather than these selected individuals at the very least these individuals have tried all professions against actual decent players and not potatoes or golems , for how questionable their judgement may be...it's still preferable to those who barely play a single spec from a single class and dare to talk about balance

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Effectively balance becomes worst every time the balance team listens to the forum rather than these selected individuals at the very least these individuals have tried all professions against actual decent players and not potatoes or golems , for how questionable their judgement may be...it's still preferable to those who barely play a single spec from a single class and dare to talk about balance

    I mean it's known knowledge that CMC takes balance decisions directly from a discord server that is mostly of former ESL players. I think he also looks at the forums to guage a broader audience, but to your point he already does this. He LOOKS at AT's and MAT's as a way to evaluate builds, and this is even stated in the Pre-Patch Notes...

    So no it's not preferable if this is the state of the game after a year of this behavior. Like i always say, just because you are good at a game, does not make you qualified to balance one.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Effectively balance becomes worst every time the balance team listens to the forum rather than these selected individuals at the very least these individuals have tried all professions against actual decent players and not potatoes or golems , for how questionable their judgement may be...it's still preferable to those who barely play a single spec from a single class and dare to talk about balance

    I mean it's known knowledge that CMC takes balance decisions directly from a discord server that is mostly of former ESL players. I think he also looks at the forums to guage a broader audience, but to your point he already does this. He LOOKS at AT's and MAT's as a way to evaluate builds, and this is even stated in the Pre-Patch Notes...

    So no it's not preferable if this is the state of the game after a year of this behavior. Like i always say, just because you are good at a game, does not make you qualified to balance one.

    You'd rather balance the game around individuals who get killed by a warhorn dps tempest? Specifically they make a whole thread about Lightning orb...this is the kind of people who come on the forum and you expect the game to be balanced around them and then you complain about the build diversity...seriously?

    Build diversity is not destroyed at the top where only a handful of builds manage to achieve something....build diversity is destroyed at the bottom where you have players who don't even know where the dodge button is and rely on the FOTM cheese to facetank everything then come whining on the forum when they get steamrolled by somebody who managed to kill them while using a not FOTM build...

    Just look at this forum....
    -"nerf healing power coefficients"...say those who play stealth spamming clown builds, it's not like Healing power nerf would affect them
    -"reintroduce dmg to cc skills"....say those playing CC spamming clown builds
    -"cut cleanse".,..say those running some condi cheese spamming build....

    How can this forum be considered any better than the people on discord?....to me it looks much worst

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Effectively balance becomes worst every time the balance team listens to the forum rather than these selected individuals at the very least these individuals have tried all professions against actual decent players and not potatoes or golems , for how questionable their judgement may be...it's still preferable to those who barely play a single spec from a single class and dare to talk about balance

    I mean it's known knowledge that CMC takes balance decisions directly from a discord server that is mostly of former ESL players. I think he also looks at the forums to guage a broader audience, but to your point he already does this. He LOOKS at AT's and MAT's as a way to evaluate builds, and this is even stated in the Pre-Patch Notes...

    So no it's not preferable if this is the state of the game after a year of this behavior. Like i always say, just because you are good at a game, does not make you qualified to balance one.

    You'd rather balance the game around individuals who get killed by a warhorn dps tempest? Specifically they make a whole thread about Lightning orb...this is the kind of people who come on the forum and you expect the game to be balanced around them and then you complain about the build diversity...seriously?

    Build diversity is not destroyed at the top where only a handful of builds manage to achieve something....build diversity is destroyed at the bottom where you have players who don't even know where the dodge button is and rely on the FOTM cheese to facetank everything then come whining on the forum when they get steamrolled by somebody who managed to kill them while using a not FOTM build...

    Just look at this forum....
    -"nerf healing power coefficients"...say those who play stealth spamming clown builds, it's not like Healing power nerf would affect them
    -"reintroduce dmg to cc skills"....say those playing CC spamming clown builds
    -"cut cleanse".,..say those running some condi cheese spamming build....

    How can this forum be considered any better than the people on discord?....to me it looks much worst

    I mean, its no different on discord.
    Y the ranger wants ranger buffed
    X the thief wants thief buffed
    Z the rev says rev is fine and people are just bad

  • XxsdgxX.8109XxsdgxX.8109 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2021

    If this is the state of the game after a year of only listening to ex ESL players then...

    The only reason certain builds might seem overtuned is because almost everything else is severely underperforming. Build diversity has never been this bad.

    What did you expect would happen when you can't kill people fast enough because nothing does enough damage anymore? And now many skills don't even deal damage at all.

    Whats next after support builds are dead enough because you finally removed more amulets? Shaving off even more mobility and evasiveness of classes (again)? Then what? Removing any amulet with vitality or toughness on it (Knight Amulet???)? Fix/change traits interactions first, rework them if its necessary. Don't just cut values in half.
    What an endless stream of hyper balance bulls***.
    And don't just suddenly go and buff thief to deal more damage now, everyone needs and deserves more damage. Or actually no one does at all but then actually put effort on tweaking and reworking skills.

    My point is that ANET shouldn't exclusively listen to such a small group of people. Because again, just as someone already said, being the best at the game doesn't automatically make you good at game design.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Effectively balance becomes worst every time the balance team listens to the forum rather than these selected individuals at the very least these individuals have tried all professions against actual decent players and not potatoes or golems , for how questionable their judgement may be...it's still preferable to those who barely play a single spec from a single class and dare to talk about balance

    I mean it's known knowledge that CMC takes balance decisions directly from a discord server that is mostly of former ESL players. I think he also looks at the forums to guage a broader audience, but to your point he already does this. He LOOKS at AT's and MAT's as a way to evaluate builds, and this is even stated in the Pre-Patch Notes...

    So no it's not preferable if this is the state of the game after a year of this behavior. Like i always say, just because you are good at a game, does not make you qualified to balance one.

    You'd rather balance the game around individuals who get killed by a warhorn dps tempest? Specifically they make a whole thread about Lightning orb...this is the kind of people who come on the forum and you expect the game to be balanced around them and then you complain about the build diversity...seriously?

    Build diversity is not destroyed at the top where only a handful of builds manage to achieve something....build diversity is destroyed at the bottom where you have players who don't even know where the dodge button is and rely on the FOTM cheese to facetank everything then come whining on the forum when they get steamrolled by somebody who managed to kill them while using a not FOTM build...

    Just look at this forum....
    -"nerf healing power coefficients"...say those who play stealth spamming clown builds, it's not like Healing power nerf would affect them
    -"reintroduce dmg to cc skills"....say those playing CC spamming clown builds
    -"cut cleanse".,..say those running some condi cheese spamming build....

    How can this forum be considered any better than the people on discord?....to me it looks much worst

    I mean, its no different on discord.
    Y the ranger wants ranger buffed
    X the thief wants thief buffed
    Z the rev says rev is fine and people are just bad

    Indeed but...so far the nerfs have been far less destructive than in the past when Anet was seriously taking into consideration this circus of a forum...you'd still have your mesmer if they'd have listened to players like @Helseth and not the clowns on the forum, they'd have nerfed the right things...rather than the common butchering as the only thing left to please the angry mob

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Effectively balance becomes worst every time the balance team listens to the forum rather than these selected individuals at the very least these individuals have tried all professions against actual decent players and not potatoes or golems , for how questionable their judgement may be...it's still preferable to those who barely play a single spec from a single class and dare to talk about balance

    I mean it's known knowledge that CMC takes balance decisions directly from a discord server that is mostly of former ESL players. I think he also looks at the forums to guage a broader audience, but to your point he already does this. He LOOKS at AT's and MAT's as a way to evaluate builds, and this is even stated in the Pre-Patch Notes...

    So no it's not preferable if this is the state of the game after a year of this behavior. Like i always say, just because you are good at a game, does not make you qualified to balance one.

    You'd rather balance the game around individuals who get killed by a warhorn dps tempest? Specifically they make a whole thread about Lightning orb...this is the kind of people who come on the forum and you expect the game to be balanced around them and then you complain about the build diversity...seriously?

    Build diversity is not destroyed at the top where only a handful of builds manage to achieve something....build diversity is destroyed at the bottom where you have players who don't even know where the dodge button is and rely on the FOTM cheese to facetank everything then come whining on the forum when they get steamrolled by somebody who managed to kill them while using a not FOTM build...

    Just look at this forum....
    -"nerf healing power coefficients"...say those who play stealth spamming clown builds, it's not like Healing power nerf would affect them
    -"reintroduce dmg to cc skills"....say those playing CC spamming clown builds
    -"cut cleanse".,..say those running some condi cheese spamming build....

    How can this forum be considered any better than the people on discord?....to me it looks much worst

    I mean, its no different on discord.
    Y the ranger wants ranger buffed
    X the thief wants thief buffed
    Z the rev says rev is fine and people are just bad

    Indeed but...so far the nerfs have been far less destructive than in the past when Anet was seriously taking into consideration this circus of a forum...you'd still have your mesmer if they'd have listened to players like @Helseth and not the clowns on the forum, they'd have nerfed the right things...rather than the common butchering as the only thing left to please the angry mob

    I dont think you have to be a pro player to know that listening to people like bad med or that guy that writes pointless long posts are a bad idea.
    Good peeps have their bias and their different personal view for the game. As said, X is a thief 1trick and will want thief to be strong, so he might suggest some changes to create meta better for his class, Y doesnt like condi so he might want condi builds nerfed, Z multi-classes and prefers sidenode games so he doesnt want kitten like bunker-scrapper to be good, etc. Sure good chunk of them might be good ideas, but fair amount of those peeps have hidden agendas or bias that they themselves dont even realize.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That's because Anet isn't doing balancing.
    They're doing nerfing down as if to make up for over 5 years of power creep.

    Weak classes get weaker, and when meta stuff become weak, the next popular build that pops up gets nerfed down as well
    That's why the game is slowly feeling like it's going into the caveman days of hitting each other with rocks (Bunker vs Bunker meta)

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • eksn.7264eksn.7264 Member ✭✭✭

    But Rene and Guard are still fine. The nerfs might seem like a lot but if you combine those specs with 1-2 Scourges the anti fun aoe spam is the same as before.

  • snoow.1694snoow.1694 Member ✭✭✭

    100% agree with you, especially with the overnerfing and rebuffing part. We have an extremely high amount of specs that are unplayable - Berserker, Firebrand, Chronomancer and alot of core specs instantly spring into mind. By overnerfing them they do nothing but make entire classes unplayable for several months or even longer, decrease build variety and cause huge mechanical issues for classes.
    I think exactly that is a big reason why the PvP population has so rapidly declined - no one will wait half a year or so until they maybe fix specs they have gutted into uselessness.

    Balance Patch every 6 weeks kappa

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2021

    as a rev main who played shiro renegade from the start (i know i mostly comment about warrior, but most people in-game thought i mained rev, that's how much i played rev and barely played warrior for the past year, i told them i mained war they didn't believe it, anyway)
    i think the nerf is fine, the sustain it has is insane for it to do any more damage than now

    people can still build for higher damage but need to face higher risk, that's all. but people aren't used to this, people are used to having incredible damage and still survive without proper positioning thanks to all the power creep
    definitely missed the good old 2013 days, where people actually need to try to survive with proper positioning for the high damage build they ran..it was fun time..but i guess daredevil killed it all

    The same goes for burnguard, the amount of sustain and damage doesn't add up.

    also after the removal of mender, it's gonna be a lot better.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @snoow.1694 said:
    100% agree with you, especially with the overnerfing and rebuffing part. We have an extremely high amount of specs that are unplayable - Berserker, Firebrand, Chronomancer and alot of core specs instantly spring into mind. By overnerfing them they do nothing but make entire classes unplayable for several months or even longer, decrease build variety and cause huge mechanical issues for classes.
    I think exactly that is a big reason why the PvP population has so rapidly declined - no one will wait half a year or so until they maybe fix specs they have gutted into uselessness.

    Haven't smelled an average berserker build with a purpose for like what 4 years, Sacrificed on the alter of PoF, great expansion for making pvp in the game terrible, if that was their idea 5/7 gg no re.

  • mistsim.2748mistsim.2748 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2021

    You're not running out of options. A lot of old school builds have made a comeback. Use different amulets and theorycraft a bit. The build variety is there if you look for it.

    We just need Mender's and Scourges removed from the game, and a bunch more builds will open up.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mistsim.2748 said:
    You're not running out of options. A lot of old school builds have made a comeback. Use different amulets and theorycraft a bit. The build variety is there if you look for it.

    We just need Mender's and Scourges removed from the game, and a bunch more builds will open up.

    "You're not running out of options"

    Mind saying that again for the ele mains in the back?

  • mistsim.2748mistsim.2748 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @mistsim.2748 said:
    You're not running out of options. A lot of old school builds have made a comeback. Use different amulets and theorycraft a bit. The build variety is there if you look for it.

    We just need Mender's and Scourges removed from the game, and a bunch more builds will open up.

    I have 12K hours played, several top 100 titles on EU, and multiclass. Apparently I am not on a high enough level yet to see all those options that you are implying here, could you enlighten me on how to make viable builds for the following purposes:

    • Attrition style bruiser, what necro was originally supposed to be.
    • Condition pressure builds, what core engineer was for a long time.(With 5-15 second duration condis that hit hard and arent reapplicable every 2 seconds)
    • A support based around solely healing/buffing the team, depending on teammates for protection(assuming menders is getting deleted).

    This list could go on for much longer, but I'm pretty sure I've already made my point. As far as I am aware, you cannot make builds filling these roles that could compete with the current meta. Now, show me the light! I want hope - I need these builds!

    So the condi Poison Master Soulbeast is already your second one, and it's been viable for a long time. It only got stronger with all the recent nerfs to meta cancer. Stronger and stronger. I was in P1 with it last year, along with a few top 100 rangers.

    In terms of support builds you'll still be able to run the +500 HP amulets, especially if they buff healing to allies like CMC was saying. Sage comes to mind. I was experimenting with a Sage druid last year anyway, but it was getting overshadowed by all the junk that already got nerfed. So I'll be trying that again once Minstrel is gone.

    Attrition style bruiser? You mean what's been meta during the last 8 years of GW2? You mean every side noder build? You want MORE of that? I'm guessing you loved the Cele days, aka the most boring meta.

    If you look at meta now it's all Minstrel. As happy as I am to be running the old school shout core guardian again, it's pretty cancerous.

    Like Trevor unsarcastically said - "Don't worry bro, we will have more options when they remove options". This guy gets it.

    Edit: omg I mean Mender's.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @mistsim.2748 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @mistsim.2748 said:
    You're not running out of options. A lot of old school builds have made a comeback. Use different amulets and theorycraft a bit. The build variety is there if you look for it.

    We just need Mender's and Scourges removed from the game, and a bunch more builds will open up.

    I have 12K hours played, several top 100 titles on EU, and multiclass. Apparently I am not on a high enough level yet to see all those options that you are implying here, could you enlighten me on how to make viable builds for the following purposes:

    • Attrition style bruiser, what necro was originally supposed to be.
    • Condition pressure builds, what core engineer was for a long time.(With 5-15 second duration condis that hit hard and arent reapplicable every 2 seconds)
    • A support based around solely healing/buffing the team, depending on teammates for protection(assuming menders is getting deleted).

    This list could go on for much longer, but I'm pretty sure I've already made my point. As far as I am aware, you cannot make builds filling these roles that could compete with the current meta. Now, show me the light! I want hope - I need these builds!

    So the condi Poison Master Soulbeast is already your second one, and it's been viable for a long time. It only got stronger with all the recent nerfs to meta cancer. Stronger and stronger. I was in P1 with it last year, along with a few top 100 rangers.

    Thats a condi burst build. I even gave the example of old core engi for reference.

    In terms of support builds you'll still be able to run the +500 HP amulets, especially if they buff healing to allies like CMC was saying. Sage comes to mind. I was experimenting with a Sage druid last year anyway, but it was getting overshadowed by all the junk that already got nerfed. So I'll be trying that again once Minstrel is gone.

    There are two ways this can play out. Either the compensation the sigil gives is negligible, which means the death of every support build that provides sustain through healing. Or there will be enough compensation to outgoing healing with sigils/traits/whatever, which would mean the current disgusting meta of stacking 2 scourges on a capture point would play out exactly like it does right now. Except they would also do somewhat more damage, so even less incentive to run offensive builds.
    Also... Minstrel? What?

    Attrition style bruiser? You mean what's been meta during the last 8 years of GW2? You mean every side noder build? You want MORE of that? I'm guessing you loved the Cele days, aka the most boring meta.

    Guess I'll have to define what I mean by attrition bruiser. It's a sturdy build with good cleansing/tanking ability(has to excel at least one of these), but absolutely bad self-healing and average mobility at best. These builds win fights by outlasting the enemy, this playstyle can only exist if the enemy bruiser also takes damage way over its sustain. Vanilla core necro with curses/spite and WITHOUT blood magic was the epitome of this.
    So no, this is was absolutely not the meta during the last 8 years. I wouldn't be here complaining about balancing if that was the case.

    If you look at meta now it's all Minstrel. As happy as I am to be running the old school shout core guardian again, it's pretty cancerous.

    I had to look up what Minstrel stats are, because it's not a thing in PvP, and I stopped raiding back in 2017. I'm just going to assume you meant Menders. And yes you are right, now that damage has been toned down repeatedly in every patch since last february, we reached the limit where this bruiser amulet can outheal almost everything.
    The sensible thing would be to tone down healing by nerfing how skills scale with healing power. Which I already stated in my OP... noone even tried to argue that it would be a bad idea. The only argument I got was that "removing menders is easier and faster".
    Which is of course not something I'd dispute, the lazy and destructive approach is always the easiest. Though.... do we really want to play a game that is managed that way?

    And this is where the serious answer stops and the snark begins:

    Like Trevor unsarcastically said - "Don't worry bro, we will have more options when they remove options".

    Unsarcastically. I like that word.

    This guy gets it.

    What makes you say that? He seems like the giving type to me.

  • mistsim.2748mistsim.2748 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @mistsim.2748 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @mistsim.2748 said:
    You're not running out of options. A lot of old school builds have made a comeback. Use different amulets and theorycraft a bit. The build variety is there if you look for it.

    We just need Mender's and Scourges removed from the game, and a bunch more builds will open up.

    I have 12K hours played, several top 100 titles on EU, and multiclass. Apparently I am not on a high enough level yet to see all those options that you are implying here, could you enlighten me on how to make viable builds for the following purposes:

    • Attrition style bruiser, what necro was originally supposed to be.
    • Condition pressure builds, what core engineer was for a long time.(With 5-15 second duration condis that hit hard and arent reapplicable every 2 seconds)
    • A support based around solely healing/buffing the team, depending on teammates for protection(assuming menders is getting deleted).

    This list could go on for much longer, but I'm pretty sure I've already made my point. As far as I am aware, you cannot make builds filling these roles that could compete with the current meta. Now, show me the light! I want hope - I need these builds!

    So the condi Poison Master Soulbeast is already your second one, and it's been viable for a long time. It only got stronger with all the recent nerfs to meta cancer. Stronger and stronger. I was in P1 with it last year, along with a few top 100 rangers.

    Thats a condi burst build. I even gave the example of old core engi for reference.

    In terms of support builds you'll still be able to run the +500 HP amulets, especially if they buff healing to allies like CMC was saying. Sage comes to mind. I was experimenting with a Sage druid last year anyway, but it was getting overshadowed by all the junk that already got nerfed. So I'll be trying that again once Minstrel is gone.

    There are two ways this can play out. Either the compensation the sigil gives is negligible, which means the death of every support build that provides sustain through healing. Or there will be enough compensation to outgoing healing with sigils/traits/whatever, which would mean the current disgusting meta of stacking 2 scourges on a capture point would play out exactly like it does right now. Except they would also do somewhat more damage, so even less incentive to run offensive builds.
    Also... Minstrel? What?

    Attrition style bruiser? You mean what's been meta during the last 8 years of GW2? You mean every side noder build? You want MORE of that? I'm guessing you loved the Cele days, aka the most boring meta.

    Guess I'll have to define what I mean by attrition bruiser. It's a sturdy build with good cleansing/tanking ability(has to excel at least one of these), but absolutely bad self-healing and average mobility at best. These builds win fights by outlasting the enemy, this playstyle can only exist if the enemy bruiser also takes damage way over its sustain. Vanilla core necro with curses/spite and WITHOUT blood magic was the epitome of this.
    So no, this is was absolutely not the meta during the last 8 years. I wouldn't be here complaining about balancing if that was the case.

    If you look at meta now it's all Minstrel. As happy as I am to be running the old school shout core guardian again, it's pretty cancerous.

    I had to look up what Minstrel stats are, because it's not a thing in PvP, and I stopped raiding back in 2017. I'm just going to assume you meant Menders. And yes you are right, now that damage has been toned down repeatedly in every patch since last february, we reached the limit where this bruiser amulet can outheal almost everything.
    The sensible thing would be to tone down healing by nerfing how skills scale with healing power. Which I already stated in my OP... noone even tried to argue that it would be a bad idea. The only argument I got was that "removing menders is easier and faster".
    Which is of course not something I'd dispute, the lazy and destructive approach is always the easiest. Though.... do we really want to play a game that is managed that way?

    And this is where the serious answer stops and the snark begins:

    Like Trevor unsarcastically said - "Don't worry bro, we will have more options when they remove options". This guy gets it.

    How would you know if the guy gets it? He seems like the giving type to me.

    Obviously by Minstrel I mean Mender's. I'm working on some wvw theorycrafting so I have a headache.

    Also, lol.

    Overall I agree with your points.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    The only way that builds with the removal of menders will be viable, is if they give people 100% Healing bonus on the new transfusion sigils. Since no Healing power, everything will be based on the base heal, and so base healing will be equalized as a consequence of this.

    Right now with a menders amulet Conjure Frost bow's auto does about 1200 healing per attack. It's base healing is 442. a 100% contribution from a sigil will raise that to 900, and any other contribution from traits and other abilities will bring it the healing modifiers to anywhere betwee 120%-160% and bring us back to 1200. This is the only way to replace menders...is by giving us healing modifier sigils that give 100% healing bonuses.

    Now does anyone here truly believe we will get 100% healing bonuses on these new modifiers...i highly doubt it. Anything less then 100% will be a huge huge nerf....And because they aren't removing Avatar's and Sage, it means that they will in NO way give us 100%.

    they will give us 25% transfusion sigils, It will be a huge nerf to all support builds, and there will be even less diversity then there's ever been in the history of the game.

  • aymnad.9023aymnad.9023 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    It depends on the scaling and the base value but 100% would make some skills stronger for outgoing healing so it will likely be less than that. (unless they are fine with it since you make supports a bit easier to kill)

  • mistsim.2748mistsim.2748 Member ✭✭✭

    50% sounds reasonable. Like that Druid GM. 50% is noticeable, but yes 25% will be insufficient.

  • @Bazsi.2734 said:

    Don't! Please stop! Balance the builds causing the meta being slow. You created this situation by removing true support amulets and lowering damage to the level that support classes can outsustain it wearing bruiser amulets like menders. If anything I would go in the opposite direction, adding back healing mainstat/concentration amulets and nerfing the scaling with healing power on every ability in the game. That way supports would not be able to do damage(which would actually make people care not to overstack them), and would be reliant on boons. Not to mention the sustain of every bruiser would be hit aswell. We had metas like that, and they were more healthy than what we currently have.

    To add back concentration stat, global boon durations need to be toned down. Having endless boons like old holos and rangers even firebrands is not what this game needs. Some buffs/boons need to be temporal to show when player is strong and when player is weak. In time when its strong, if it get boon striped/corupted then it will always remain weak.

    I can compare world of warcraft support/healer to guild wars 2 and all i can tell is that in WoW there are larger health pools so it is easier for their healers/supports to work while in guild wars 2 health pools are too small compared to damage that can come out. As long as some spells can deal up to 50%+ health as damage, this game won't be any good neither viable for supports as the difference is from doing burst healing, missing bursting healing or even overhealing(healing nothing above full health).

    What also makes supports bad is that healing out of combat exist, so why needing a healer if you can disengage and heal up to full?

    Another comparation with WoW is that WoW supports have resource bar-"mana" so supports can be good but if they are spamming their spells too much and use high cost spells, at some point they can't keep up supporting. In guild wars 2 it is a healthbar....as long you are alive you can support and once you get pressured you can't even support yourself and that is a reason why we have bunker supports with mender.

    Another good thing that exist in wow are tanks in pvp. They redirect some % of damage on themselves, a real purpose of absorbing some damage for your team. While in gw2 you have tanks/bunkers who only care about their own life sitting on node and that's it. Even now, there is no toughness anymore, tanks just became brusiers or healers and that is where we have "bunker" meta with dps+tank and healer+tank builds.

    All classes need to be good in their own thing not to be good in everything. Moving from there, you can actually have different roles covering each other into good synergy which makes a team.

  • Low and behold. My predictions came true...yet again.

  • Lucentfir.7430Lucentfir.7430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Low and behold. My predictions came true...yet again.

    Becareful you're going to get called a normal Nostradamus at this rate. :lol:

  • salogel.1869salogel.1869 Member ✭✭

    now I'm worried tempest damage is going to get nerfed because tempest actually does somewhat decent attrition damage with avatar amulet ...