Boonsharing classes undermine class viability - they are simply too powerful

The biggest problem of them all is that a few classes get way too much boosting power compared to other classes. One class can boost damage of other classes by what 30-50% or something, that makes the few classes who can do that almost mandatory, which in turn reduces the viability of other classes/builds. That is the biggest root of the issue, it is even inherited in fractal setups where to optimize small group dps output you need these classes because their boosts are too large.

Additionally i should discuss separation of boons. As there seem to be multiple types of boons - the long duration uptime ones: Fury, alacrity, might, quickness, vigor and maybe swiftness, but there are also the high powered shorter duration ones: Aegis, protection, retaliation and stability, finally there is regeneration which is more a healing thing of it's own. In this post i address mainly the long duration boons.

How then, would you nerf them? We have seen a lot of talk here about how some classes share multiple powerful boons - they then suggest not being able to keep up durations of all because they are afraid to lose one. Let me warn you against this approach - it will lead to class stacking instead in order to achieve full uptime on the most powerful buffs. Instead i would suggest to strip away the reliable multiboon sharing across the board, and making it easier for single classes to share a particular single boon. In fact i would attack the whole support class ideology. What is that all about? having a wanker there just because his passive buffs are game breaking? - there is another way to achieve the same support by spreading it out among more classes in their regular functions without being dedicated support wankers.

If we look at the greater perspective and more classic designs of games throughout time - i find wisdom in each class being able to share a particular thing. That gives them all more relevance, a relevance that can also help to overall overcome them lacking dps compared to some others when picking raid compositions. It makes stacking the same class less attractive, while at the same time putting performance in focus more because when classes are closer performance matters more. So a funny observation/reiteration here is that a class buff system of not broken op buffs spread out among all classes acts as a buffer system resisting both smaller imbalances to class performance like dps by putting more emphasis on having a wider variety of classes but at the same time also resisting the reverse situation that all different classes are required in order to achieve acceptable performance and through that allows individual players to be considered attractive over bringing bad players of the missing class. I again question the value of dedicated support builds. A build for slackers who don't have to work as hard to earn their rewards? A role which only undermines others' and makes less classes viable? I will also bring you back to remember that not being able to achieve full uptime promotes class stacking. With that in mind:

• Dial back all multiboonsharing classes as they only undermine the roles and spots of other classes
• Seek to ideally only have 1 boon reliably shared by each class, with some classes sharing the same boon and the highest dps builds not sharing any. Classes can still apply other boons only to themselves
• Make it easier to achieve full uptime on the classes main party buff, provided you use your rotation well as a normal good player would
• Remove Concentration from the game. This stat serves no real purpose - it screams: "hey i take this and my performance matters not so much, coz i just need to be here for buffs, and an abitrary demand for concentration to be able to maintain them". Everyone should contribute equally. There is no need for a slacker role at all, healers are already the real support role. Again it only undermines roles of other classes. It makes people gear to be wanker and less relevant in other content/own play.

At the end of the day - if you do not remove big chunks of the abused power(primarily boonsharing) from the most broken classes, you will have the same meta and things will not change. Many things results in a subset of classes pushing out most other classes - but this is one of the big factors.

The above are goals of idealism, something to shifts towards if one does not wish to make a larger change. I believe them all to be well reasoned.

So you want us to look for "1 war 1 guard 1 rev 1 ranger 1 thief 1 engi 1 mes 1 necro 2 eles" instead of "2 chronos 1 druid 1 war 6 dps". You are making it too complicated.

This isn't fixing the problem.

so the solution is to make all classes share at least 8 different boon types, and not interfere with their DPS traits. BOOM! Everyone gets into raids now.

That would make party finding even more toxic. People would only look for the professions that share fury, protection and might for pretty much the whole game.

The problem with the game's balance is not 25 stacks of might, or everlasting fury or any boon whatsoever, its the constant disproportionate buffing/nerfing of classes' own traits/skills.

The premise is wrong and the proposed solution is unnecessary.

Chronos have too many boons and needs to lose some of them.

Well, this would kill diversity even more... only the professions with quickness, alacrity, fury and might for groups needed. Why protection, vigor or swiftness when you can have more damage... especially in small groups. Not many professions have access to group quickness and alacrity... these group slots are more or less fix. The other boons will be only shared by the classes with most utility/damage. This dictates 4 out of 5 slots in a group... Diversity at it's finest. Now we only have chrono + support (mostly druid) as core of a group. 2 out of 5 fix. I think I don't need to show why your "solution" would outright kill diversity in small groups (fractals and maybe mirror comp for raids).

So let's assume that all classes become raid viable this way (they won't) and let's assume that making groups becomes easier (which it won't) thus toxicity decreases as a result (which it won't).

How do you now solve the problem of having disproportionate amount of people playing different classes? Chrono which currently occupies 2 fixed spots in raids is constantly in demand and basically allows any one easy access to this content. Yet people do not en mass fill that demand.

What makes you believe people will evenly distribute among all classes thus preventing possible bottlenecks on now 9 classes instead of 2-3?

That said, you must be new to forums or convincing people. In general, being condescending or arrogant makes it harder to get your point across. Especially when it is a questionable point which doesn't even tackle the main issues.

Its just 3 boons main that braking the game aegis quickness and alacrity.

OP, eat a Snickers. You get a little hostile when you're hungry.

Refills his popcorn bowl.

Please, tell me more.

@"Crackmonster.2790" said:

• Remove Concentration from the game. This stat serves no real purpose - it screams: "hey i take this and my performance matters not so much, coz i just need to be here for buffs, and an abitrary demand for concentration to be able to maintain them". Everyone should contribute equally. There is no need for a slacker role at all, healers are already the real support role. Again it only undermines roles of other classes. It makes people gear to be kitten and less relevant in other content/own play.

Because only dps players need to follow rotations? Because playing chrono with concentration in fractals results in easy and braindead perma boons for the whole party?I'm happy that this isn't wow 2.0 and a true buffing support with active gameplay exists.The problem is that chrono is the only buffer profession in the game. Firebrand and Herald/renegade are hybrids that don't work on their own.This game just needs more true buffer builds. Firebrand can grant quickness and have really powerfull heals at the same time. Giving him alacrity or renegade quickness would only work if they would reduce their healing capability by a lot. They can be used together to be an alternative to chrono though.

I'm not even sure why lots of players think that healing is the only form of support. The original support role in pve was always boons and utility and never healing. This only came with raids and started spreading into other gamemodes.

The problem is not that chrono is too op. It just has no competition with being the only utility boon profession. Well it can also heal but comes not even close to the output of a true healer.They could change scrapper into that role aswell. So it would have usage except of being a bad joke. Yes scrapper is still in the game for everyone wondering. Scrapper has to be the most useless abomination there is. Just give it a role already.

@"Schnuschnu.9857" said:Well, this would kill diversity even more... only the professions with quickness, alacrity, fury and might for groups needed. Why protection, vigor or swiftness when you can have more damage... especially in small groups. Not many professions have access to group quickness and alacrity... these group slots are more or less fix. The other boons will be only shared by the classes with most utility/damage. This dictates 4 out of 5 slots in a group... Diversity at it's finest. Now we only have chrono + support (mostly druid) as core of a group. 2 out of 5 fix. I think I don't need to show why your "solution" would outright kill diversity in small groups (fractals and maybe mirror comp for raids).

Both weaver and warrior gain +7% damage from swiftness ... maybe others too.

That is easily solved by not letting any one person maintain too many boons in too many players.You don't have to replace that with each profession maintaining their own boons, just like it wasn't necessary to give the 'lost' epidemic condition upkeep by giving it to someone else.

You just get rid of it altogether.

What I'd like to see is some skills and traits that add duration to some boons on self, so they can build up and ramp up instead being something that is bursted and then goes down.Like a skill that makes the 3rd hit of an autoattack chain give 1 might and add 2s to might to any existing might on self, or the sigil of battle adding +1 might and +2s to existing might instead adding a flat amount of might with a fixed duration.

This way instead having to have one or many professions constantly spamming boons, there can be different sources for boons, and then part of the job of maintaining them goes to each profession. "I give you the might, you keep it up".That would also make boon stripping more impactfull since it' would be easier to stay at 25 stacks of might, but it'll take longer to go from 1 to 25.

Of course that would also mean that boon stripping would have to be a bit less readily available, moving to a rhythm of abut 30s instead the current of 10s.

I think it would be good to split boons up to be profession specific. Divide it up evenly: Three professions get alacrity, three get might, three get protection, three get quickness, etc etc. Each profession would get about 2-3 boons that they could give. That would be a good way to share it out and keep boons and grouping in demand, even in open world.

Man, I main mesmer in open world and abhor how they're pretty much boonbots in raiding, but even I know it's a necessary thing for a game with no dedicated healing/support class system.If they nerfed boonsharing too much, Mesmers would be effectively pushed out of raid parties unless they get pretty substantial tweaks to their versatility elsewhere. They're already a nonlinear class, and I don't know if players would take to that very well.

@TigStripe.2379 said:Man, I main mesmer in open world and abhor how they're pretty much boonbots in raiding, but even I know it's a necessary thing for a game with no dedicated healing/support class system.If they nerfed boonsharing too much, Mesmers would be effectively pushed out of raid parties unless they get pretty substantial tweaks to their versatility elsewhere. They're already a nonlinear class, and I don't know if players would take to that very well.

They should spread it out a bit more(who knows maybe they are planning too.) One class shouldnt be able to do all the boons. But it for sure does Not need to be limited to one boon per class.

The way i see it, it is going to be very hard to avoid facing spreading them out among classes instead of letting mega bots do multiple or many at once.You are facing a situation where you basically have to either spread them out, remove them, or give them all to more to more classes. - assuming you want a more even representation of classes.I personally am not a fan of giving more the full package - first because i think the passive buff supporter role is tame but also because it reminds me more of the wow no-brainer clear role separation setup.Essentially, instead of having a couple of +30-50% group efficiency classes that are mostly mandatory, it would be better to have more classes with 5-15% effiency boosts to groups. Previous removed arguments had a fair point. Lets say everything is solved now with 2 classes - then it is easier to just have a group with 2 fixed slots for all groups and 3 open spots. Whereas say if you had to have 3-4 specific builds to get all buffs - then that leaves only 1-2 open slots.That is why it is essential that if you spread buffs out, there must be 2-3 classes that can apply each buff meaning there will be a lot more open choices for filling the slots.If it was done this way, the penalty for not having a perfect setup would be lower than it currently is now - meaning it would be more attractive or less punishing depending on how you like to look at it. I will also remind you GW2 is not balanced around needing perfection - but near perfection will always be there for those who want to min-max the groups and even in that case this would open up more potential variety.

As far as whether one boon per class is too little - i would have to advice caution when adding multiple shareable boons to classes, it can more easily result in uber combinations that far outweigh other combinations, but i guess if all packages for all classes were intelligently balanced that may work as well. I would certainly advice against stronger combinations than strong+weak, medium+medium.If you really wanted to get technical you could go more in depth about it. Say healer's could have the best boon packages, the strongest dps classes the least, and other such groupings but always make sure nothing gets too much package and that all things can be achieved with variable setups.Keep in mind i have suggested only limitation of shared boons - what classes get internally depends on them.

You understand the problem correctly, but your solution is bad. Chronos and Druids just needed to be nerfed. There's simply too much boon sharing too easily in the game now.

@"Khisanth.2948" said:Both weaver and warrior gain +7% damage from swiftness ... maybe others too.

The question is: Would such professions be played if other professions could reach similar DPS without the need for a "useless" (at least for other professions) boon? Weaver would be killed of due to reliance on Bountiful power. Any profession too reliant on specific boons could suffer. So, as I said... it would restrict diversity even more.

@Einlanzer.1627 said:You understand the problem correctly, but your solution is bad. Chronos and Druids just needed to be nerfed. There's simply too much boon sharing too easily in the game now.

And what will nerfing will solve at this point of time? Boons is the only thing that keeps Druids in raids instead of FB/Tempests. Nerf Chrono and the all can just play power. Wev need more boonsharing porofessions not nerf ot the existing ones.

@starlinvf.1358 said:so the solution is to make all classes share at least 8 different boon types, and not interfere with their DPS traits. BOOM! Everyone gets into raids now.

Not quite, but if boons worked like in more raid-centric MMORPGs, it'd be worlds easier.

@starlinvf.1358 said:so the solution is to make all classes share at least 8 different boon types, and not interfere with their DPS traits. BOOM! Everyone gets into raids now.

But then there's only one (max two) slots per class available. That slot is already taken? You're out of luck. There's no one playing engi available at the moment? You're out of luck.Besides, i don't really think that the 1 healer 9 dps setup is any more interesting than what we have now.

@Dante.1763 said:

@TigStripe.2379 said:Man, I main mesmer in open world and abhor how they're pretty much boonbots in raiding, but even I know it's a necessary thing for a game with no dedicated healing/support class system.If they nerfed boonsharing too much, Mesmers would be effectively pushed out of raid parties unless they get pretty substantial tweaks to their versatility elsewhere. They're already a nonlinear class, and I don't know if players would take to that very well.

Remember, that we currently have two distinct types of support sources. First is a pure support build (currently, only chrono) - class whose role is to give out boons, and practically nothing else. Second is a class that does something else (dps or healing) and gives out boons at a practically no cost (or negligible cost) to that role (druid, , all the passive boon traits like spotter, etc). Well, there's also a hybrid role, that gives out suport while still dealing decent dps (BS warrior). And it's because all the other classes can give out boons as a secondary goal, without impacting their primary goal much, that they are inferior to support chrono in the boon department.

Think of it that way - if we nerf support on support class soo much, we'll end up running with only dps classes, which would be boring. On the other hand, if we nerf it to the point current chrono setup won't cut it anymore, but not to the point support's no longer worth to run, we would incease the number of support slots.

Support option at the moment takes 20% of the whole squad (30% if we count druid, 40% if we're running double druid setup), which is a good balance. Anything more, and we'd be running more support than dps (with devastating negative consequences on raid squad setup times, seeing as support options are already in short supply). Anything less, and we're going into pure dps setups. Which some people might perhaps like, but i'm not sure if it could be called an impreovement.

Give it the epidemic treatment.

Seems like the larger issue is that not all boons stacks are created equal. Some are crap, some can be powerful but are very situational. The ones that boost DPS are not only nearly always beneficial regardless of the situation, but they compound one another, such that each makes the others still more valuable.

That being the case, splitting up boons isn't really solving the problem. People will still select whoever brings alacrity, might, fury, and quickness. Everything else is optional.

Maybe if offense involved as much counterplay as defense does, and offensive support boosted specific aspects of that, and was less spammy and AoE-based, things would be better.