Does it make sense for every skill with a CC to have a multiplier of .01? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Does it make sense for every skill with a CC to have a multiplier of .01?

mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited February 6, 2020 in PVP

For example, dragonhunter's Deflecting Shot will deal damage with a multiplier of .01. Deflecting Shot's damage is currently a decent chunk of DH's DPS. The DPS loss wasn't re-added anywhere. What happens if DH struggles to kill enemies because multiple skills had their multipliers brought down to .01, just because they provide a CC? It does make sense for some skills with CC's to do little to no damage, but some are actually important to the overall rotation. For example, I don't mind Spear of Justice having a .01 multiplier. It provides great functionality.

What do you guys think?

Edit: A great example I continuously see brought up is Warrior's hammer. 3/5 skills will have a multiplier of .01!
Edit #2: A better choice would have been to reduce those skills' damage by 50%.

<1

Comments

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    I think thats good but they need to give sometrade off, lower cast or cd, some skills life reaper 5 have huge cast because of the dmg and cc

  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    I think thats good but they need to give sometrade off, lowef cast or cd

    Yeah, I wouldn't mind a lower CD or added functionality! I realize how important certain skills are for their damage. DPS is already being brought down by ~33% profession wide. Removing an entire skill's damage component can be killer. The current Deflecting Shot can knock off ~15% of a player's HP if it crits. If I lose that damage, I need something to help my other skills pump out enough DPS to compensate for it

  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    @choovanski.5462 said:
    it's a good change. will have to use CC to set up dmg, not just kill someone with bull charge

    6k deflecting shot killing people is funny, but it's not healthy for the game tbh

    I agree, CC skills shouldn't "1 shot" someone, but for it to do close to 0 damage? If they had buffed True Shot's damage, maybe

    Edit: I've never seen a 6k deflecting shot in my life. The DH would have to be super glass to achieve that

  • @mrauls.6519 said:

    @choovanski.5462 said:
    it's a good change. will have to use CC to set up dmg, not just kill someone with bull charge

    6k deflecting shot killing people is funny, but it's not healthy for the game tbh

    I agree, CC skills shouldn't "1 shot" someone, but for it to do close to 0 damage? If they had buffed True Shot's damage, maybe

    everyone is getting damage reductions, and healing reductions. compared to the multipliers on most skills after patch, true shot still hits really hard. so does the auto, and so do the traps

    considering you can insta kill with traps still, I think DH can suffer the loss of 6k deflecting shots. I know I'll still play a bit of meditrapper w my warrior post patch, I think it's gonna still be very strong tbh

    cc skills having big crits has never been a good thing about gw2. skills like hammer 5 on scrapper having any dmg at all has always been stupid

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  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    I'm just going to repost what what I said in the main balance thread. But generally speaking if it has a proper large wind up and a cooldown I don't think a big hit that also CC's is remotely a problem in the game mode.

    I do want to say that I understand the logic in nerfing CC skills heavily in the damage department, I think a lot of this is going too far with it to the point of ruining things like class identity.

    For example: Prime Light Beam. Prime Light Beam is one of my favorite utility skills to have to play against. It's really cool, it fits with Holosmith really well thematically and gameplay wise. If I dodge it, I always feel like I gained a huge advantage in the fight. If I get tagged with it, there's always a wave of panic.

    If I had any one complaint about the skill, the only thing I disliked was that it could be cast from stealth and since it has no projectile from stealth it is genuinely unavoidable. I really only wanted to see self revealed applied to the holosmith when they begin casting the skill so if they try to cast it from stealth I get to see the tell anyway.

    I was fine with the damage. I was fine with the CC. I was fine with the flavor. This applies to other elites like Dragon Maw, Head Butt, ect. ect. Even nonelites like Wild Blow and Big Ol Bomb.

    I think full on the point of balance patches is a massive increase in build diversity. We want to see MATs and one side might have a Greatsword/Dagger+Shield Spellbreaker on one side, and something that seems impossible with the current balance like a Hammer Berserker running Wild Blow. Hammer on warrior is all about having below average damage, little mobility, no defensive options but making up for it with heavy CC. If you do something like gut all the damage out of all the hammer skills that weapon kit will never be seen in game again. Like all the damage on the kit is gone I straight up think it will be outright impossible to score a single kill on any build ever if you have a weapon kit that literally just does not do damage the way you've done with warrior hammer now.

    Warrior hammer, especially considering how it's;
    1. Melee only
    2. No movement skills outside of the modestly ranged burst
    3. Has very little range outside of the cripple shockwave
    4. Has mediocre DPS
    5. Relies on it's high damage CC skills to actually do a reasonable amount of damage

    Goes to show how not entirely well thought out the idea of gutting all damage from CC skills is. You'd have to balance it around doing like 6-7k damage auto attacks for it to have any chance of killing any players.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    I think it's a healthy philosophy for weapon skills, but not for elite skills like Maw, PLB, Chilled to the Bone, Jade Winds, etc.

    I should clarify that this is a generalization, but there should be exceptions when it comes to things like Warrior's hammer that has a kit largely centered around CC.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I certainly agree with where Cohen is going with this, making the skills more focused on its primary ability

    but rather nerf every CC skills' coefficients down to 0.1, i would like to see the base strength of the CC be accounted for
    the stronger the CC the lower the coefficient, the weaker the CC the higher the coefficient is

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  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes

    The biggest offenders will always chain these skills and boom no counter play.

    Good kitten riddance.

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    My Daredevil build after the big patch

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭

    Because this is literally how SB Hammer is played right now.

    Bull Charge, Hammer 4, Hammer Burst, Hammer 5

    This CC chain does so much damage its obnoxious.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    snip

    100% with you on the Hammer build. It's also weird that they emphasize that Hammer 5 -> 2 combo by also allowing the 5 to refresh the 2 with the upcoming changes, while everything, including the Hammer 2, just lost all of the damage on it.

    I propose: GIve it a finisher! We need more of those. Finish downstates instantly, single target. Fits the theme too. I'll never stop saying this, but more big hit finishers that don't involve pressing F, but actual gameplay and choice of either using a skill during a fight or finishing it to literally finish somebody off needs to become more of a thing while we are at it.

    I rather choose death.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    But does hammer need so many CCs? Cant we change hanmer 4 to a spin that does damage (similar to scrapper hammer 2) and gives protection for successful hit? Or something.

    // Yanim

  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    But does hammer need so many CCs? Cant we change hanmer 4 to a spin that does damage (similar to scrapper hammer 2) and gives protection for successful hit? Or something.

    Warrior hammer does have a ton of CC's. Still, I think it's crazy for 3/5 of the weapon skills to have a multiplier of .01. I wouldn't even want to use that weapon in PvP

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    I'm totally fine with this. Considering what bulls charge is capable of(massive damage, long cc, gap closer, leap combo) it doesn't need the damage or the leap combo imo. And nearly all hard cc moves do massive damage. Cc moves should be a set up for bigger combos not the finisher or as a damage contributor, but a setup/utilities.
    As far as hammer goes it already had no play time in PvP so nothing will change there.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    Rework hammer, buff elites

    Cya

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Talking about DS, the skill already requires aiming and setup. It’s damage was buffed recently by 80% cuz the risk and the reward of the skill we’re completely out of whack. To an extent it is still a bit under powered.

    Now Anet removes the damage and adds and additional 0.5 sec cast time. I gurantee you whoever made the change to this skill (as they majority of the balance changes) had no idea what the skill is or does. You would be an absolute moron if you ever even attempt to use this skill in sPvP.

    This goes to many of these weapon changes. Like warrior hammer and mace.

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No, but it’s just a start on balancing. They are just establishing a base line.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭

    The change isnt that bad considering everything got nerfed and test of faith dmg got buffed

  • Alin.2468Alin.2468 Member ✭✭✭

    When it comes to PvP, I consider crowd control the most delicate subject. This is because many people love to disable enemies, and hate to be disabled then demolished. Removing all damage from crowd control is the greatest and most awesome modification Anet made to PvP in the last 7 years (since release). If a player just comes to match to apply crowd controls in chains, then that player should deal no damage, and instead his partners should do that for him, creating coordination. This is actually great tactic; now if we only had teams.

    Thank you Arenanet for keeping crowd controls under surveillance, and for removing damage from CC abilities.

    One man trash another man treasure.

  • @otto.5684 said:
    Talking about DS, the skill already requires aiming and setup. It’s damage was buffed recently by 80% cuz the risk and the reward of the skill we’re completely out of whack. To an extent it is still a bit under powered.

    Now Anet removes the damage and adds and additional 0.5 sec cast time. I gurantee you whoever made the change to this skill (as they majority of the balance changes) had no idea what the skill is or does. You would be an absolute moron if you ever even attempt to use this skill in sPvP.

    This goes to many of these weapon changes. Like warrior hammer and mace.

    Agreed. While the reasoning behind their attempted changes are 'cute', the skill itself will be completely out of competitive viability until it's reverted or changed further in the unforeseeable future. DH's bow damage is low as it stands, and their missile speed is, correct me if I'm wrong, lower than ranger's longbow. With all of their skills more telegraphed than any of warrior's, how on earth are they supposed to deal damage outside trap cheese? None of the traits will be able to save this clunky mess.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    The cc having .01 coefficient change is as idiodic as the many ideas the teams implemented in the past that should have never made it thru even early stages of consideration. Gw2 is a dynamic game and each class has it's own set of dynamics as well with different designs and playstyles, non of which are considered with such a change.
    Classes that arnt designed to utilize a lot of heavy cc to do a significant part of their overall damage, short bursts included will fair far better than a class like warrior for example. Warriors burst are designed to happen after hard cc cuz let's be real no ones eating hundred blades otherwise and still usually don't cuz stunbreaks. The warrior damage were all used to came from bursts and cc but with these changes not only does their burst get lowered like everyone else the hard cc damage is gone which was designed to be part of their burst so this games warrior class is gonna end up weak in melee fights of all things lol. Their hammer kit 3 of 5 skills will have .01 coefficient attached to it. The team needed to evaluate classes that were designed around having and utilizing a lot of hard cc to get its rotations off as well as how much the kitts were designed to have the hard cc compliment their burst damage and make the appropriate changes to compensate for the loss of damage, especially when u consider such a blanket change and how little it effects classes who dont rely heavily on hard cc in their rotations.
    Anyway this patch is going to be a mess when it drops lol.

  • Neil.3825Neil.3825 Member ✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    I think it's a temporary measure. They can't address all in one. This patch is for having a healthy basement. Next ones will address balance.
    Take it as an event "cc don't do damage". It will not last long (1 or 2 months), I'm sure of it.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    @Neil.3825 said:
    I think it's a temporary measure. They can't address all in one. This patch is for having a healthy basement. Next ones will address balance.
    Take it as an event "cc don't do damage". It will not last long (1 or 2 months), I'm sure of it.

    Have to agree with this cuz alternatively they would have to massively rework classes heavily dependent on hard cc as part of their damage due to how prevalent the cc is in their kits otherwise balance would be way off in some cases.
    Let's hope.

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭

    Nope.
    Gravity Well is a elite that has no damage now with out the duration of moa.

    Legit i don't know how they found even more ways to make chrono bad but they did.

    I asked for SPvP changes but i never asked for this...
    This game is ruled by the OW community to the detriment of all other game modes..

  • Neil.3825Neil.3825 Member ✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    Just wait a little, you worrying too much. The patch after will fix this mess.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Neil.3825 said:
    Just wait a little, you worrying too much. The patch after will fix this mess.

    If we know it is a mess, why not fix now? I am not getting this. If we know something is broken, fix it. Not implement broken and fix it later...

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    It's kinda hard to predict how this will pan out after the patch - damage has def gone down, CC + damage has gone down. On the other hand, defenses have also seen some nerfs - not nearly as much as damage, obviously, but if my opponent is less likely to have prot...Or their healing has been slashed, making it more difficult to recover from damage (so the VALUE of damage goes up as the numerical value of damage itself goes down).

    Seems like CC durations have gone up a little, so you have slightly more time to get an extra whack or two in? Anywho, I expect anet will eventually readjust some CCs to have, on average, low AA level damage (so 400-500ish tooltip).

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Reaper shroud 5 will be a funny skill to see hit for 20 lul

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:
    Reaper shroud 5 will be a funny skill to see hit for 20 lul

    Haha yeah such a weighty feeling animation followed by embarrassing damage

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:
    Reaper shroud 5 will be a funny skill to see hit for 20 lul

    Haha yeah such a weighty feeling animation followed by embarrassing damage

    It would honestly probably feel better if they did no damage at all, like, didn't even pop up a number. Its just anti-climatic for stuff to hit for like 10 damage.

    Depression and anxiety are the worst...

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:
    Reaper shroud 5 will be a funny skill to see hit for 20 lul

    Haha yeah such a weighty feeling animation followed by embarrassing damage

    they can fix it making it stun in area or below % the stun is longer, if below 10% the target get killed

  • Hylo.1968Hylo.1968 Member ✭✭

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Talking about DS, the skill already requires aiming and setup. It’s damage was buffed recently by 80% cuz the risk and the reward of the skill we’re completely out of whack. To an extent it is still a bit under powered.

    Now Anet removes the damage and adds and additional 0.5 sec cast time. I gurantee you whoever made the change to this skill (as they majority of the balance changes) had no idea what the skill is or does. You would be an absolute moron if you ever even attempt to use this skill in sPvP.

    This goes to many of these weapon changes. Like warrior hammer and mace.

    Agreed. While the reasoning behind their attempted changes are 'cute', the skill itself will be completely out of competitive viability until it's reverted or changed further in the unforeseeable future. DH's bow damage is low as it stands, and their missile speed is, correct me if I'm wrong, lower than ranger's longbow. With all of their skills more telegraphed than any of warrior's, how on earth are they supposed to deal damage outside trap cheese? None of the traits will be able to save this clunky mess.

    Not only the projectile speed, but also the AA deal less dmg.

  • Neil.3825Neil.3825 Member ✭✭

    The funniest cc will be Drop the hammer nearly 2sec cast time for 2 sec stun with no damage. :')

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    @Neil.3825 said:
    The funniest cc will be Drop the hammer nearly 2sec cast time for 2 sec stun with no damage. :')

    There's gonna be so many skills that look absurd given their damage. A warrior in heavy armor stampeding u with bulls charge body checking u to the ground- knockdown but tickles lol here take a shield bash to the face, sure that would stun anyone but hurt? Nahh that's silliness lol. I could see the shockwave of holo not doing much physical damage but it should do some heavy damage if ur under the holo getting smashed on the head lol. But executioner Scythe with huge wind up gonna look funny as kitten lol.
    I donno the cc= 0.01 coefficient I think won't last for long as there's a lot more variables to consider for each individual class.

  • To be honest, CC skills should be CC only, no or very low damage just enough to trigger the CC. However, other skills in the weapon set should have high meaningful damage.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    To be honest, CC skills should be CC only, no or very low damage just enough to trigger the CC. However, other skills in the weapon set should have high meaningful damage.

    That's not really possible for every weapon. Look at Warrior's hammer. 3/5 skills will deal no damage. That leaves the Auto Attack and 1 other skill... This should not be happening.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mrauls.6519 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    To be honest, CC skills should be CC only, no or very low damage just enough to trigger the CC. However, other skills in the weapon set should have high meaningful damage.

    That's not really possible for every weapon. Look at Warrior's hammer. 3/5 skills will deal no damage. That leaves the Auto Attack and 1 other skill... This should not be happening.

    No it shouldn't, the weapon skills that have hard cc should produce a amount of damage that when combined with the hard cc feels in line with classes that have less hard cc in their kit but more damage, even if that means the hammer skills do 50 of the original damage it's still far better balanced than a blanket .01 coefficient stuck on every cc skill regardless of what kit the cc skills is part of. It's a lazy approach that has become the norm for gw2

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭

    @mrauls.6519 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    To be honest, CC skills should be CC only, no or very low damage just enough to trigger the CC. However, other skills in the weapon set should have high meaningful damage.

    That's not really possible for every weapon. Look at Warrior's hammer. 3/5 skills will deal no damage. That leaves the Auto Attack and 1 other skill... This should not be happening.

    Yeah that sucks way more then my gravity well doing no damage as an elite having a entire weapon get destroyed. I commented on that in the official spvp patch note thread thats absolutely horrendous they did that and i dont play warriors and i have no intentions of playing one.

    I asked for SPvP changes but i never asked for this...
    This game is ruled by the OW community to the detriment of all other game modes..

  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    No it shouldn't, the weapon skills that have hard cc should produce a amount of damage that when combined with the hard cc feels in line with classes that have less hard cc in their kit but more damage, even if that means the hammer skills do 50 of the original damage it's still far better balanced than a blanket .01 coefficient stuck on every cc skill regardless of what kit the cc skills is part of. It's a lazy approach that has become the norm for gw2

    I agree, very lazy. It's like they didn't even try. These type of changes should not go live. I think a 50% damage nerf would've been more appropriate

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:
    Reaper shroud 5 will be a funny skill to see hit for 20 lul

    Haha yeah such a weighty feeling animation followed by embarrassing damage

    they can fix it making it stun in area or below % the stun is longer, if below 10% the target get killed

    or they could remove the stun and keep the damage?

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    @mrauls.6519 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    To be honest, CC skills should be CC only, no or very low damage just enough to trigger the CC. However, other skills in the weapon set should have high meaningful damage.

    That's not really possible for every weapon. Look at Warrior's hammer. 3/5 skills will deal no damage. That leaves the Auto Attack and 1 other skill... This should not be happening.

    That way I see it, Warrior's hammer has too many CC skills when they should have at least 3 damage skills. I agree with their decision on the CC skills and I believe that the base damage should also be reduced. Then they should re-balance the weapons skills, including the Warrior's hammer, to make sure that it's not hit too hard by converting one of the skill from CC to damage.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @mrauls.6519 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    To be honest, CC skills should be CC only, no or very low damage just enough to trigger the CC. However, other skills in the weapon set should have high meaningful damage.

    That's not really possible for every weapon. Look at Warrior's hammer. 3/5 skills will deal no damage. That leaves the Auto Attack and 1 other skill... This should not be happening.

    That way I see it, Warrior's hammer has too many CC skills when they should have at least 3 damage skills. I agree with their decision on the CC skills and I believe that the base damage should also be reduced. Then they should re-balance the weapons skills, including the Warrior's hammer, to make sure that it's not hit too hard by converting one of the skill from CC to damage.

    This would be another solution but instead warrior hammer will go on for years with autos and 1 skill that does damage lol which is pathetic. Look at headbutted elite, a elite cc skill that had a 3.0 coefficient now does 0.01 lol a elite. Honestly the laziness of these devs are epic at this point.

  • Dralor.3701Dralor.3701 Member ✭✭✭

    Think it is a pretty bad change, some of those skills doing no damage is going to remove their viability.

  • xDudisx.5914xDudisx.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    Although I agree with the dmg reduction for CC skills, reducing all CC skills to 0.01 is too much. Considering 2.0 as the top coefficient for skills that only do DPS and nothing else, I believe that 0.1-0.5 would be a good range for CC skills, depending on how strong the CC is. It was insane that things like Rush had a 2.0 coefficient and could hit like a truck, but 0.01 is way too brutal of a nerf.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @mrauls.6519 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    To be honest, CC skills should be CC only, no or very low damage just enough to trigger the CC. However, other skills in the weapon set should have high meaningful damage.

    That's not really possible for every weapon. Look at Warrior's hammer. 3/5 skills will deal no damage. That leaves the Auto Attack and 1 other skill... This should not be happening.

    That way I see it, Warrior's hammer has too many CC skills when they should have at least 3 damage skills. I agree with their decision on the CC skills and I believe that the base damage should also be reduced. Then they should re-balance the weapons skills, including the Warrior's hammer, to make sure that it's not hit too hard by converting one of the skill from CC to damage.

    This would be another solution but instead warrior hammer will go on for years with autos and 1 skill that does damage lol which is pathetic. Look at headbutted elite, a elite cc skill that had a 3.0 coefficient now does 0.01 lol a elite. Honestly the laziness of these devs are epic at this point.

    It's still an Elite skill because it does other things other than just CC and it has a high base damage. I believe that it's ok to have high base damage just because it's an Elite. Other skills should not have a CC, high base damage, and high coef. -- that's just too much for a single non-Elite skill.

    EDIT: We all know that Warriors are overtuned when it comes to power level due to some Dev bias when they are balancing the skills. Hopefully that this new team will make things truly balance.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...