Rune of the Golemancer should be banned or nerfed in WvW
Heibi.4251
Member ✭✭✭
As of late there is at least one guild using this Rune in WvW as a primary means of gaming the system. The guild has at least 10-20 players running this rune. The golems are there to soak up damage(considering AOEs hit random players in the area) and they have CC. This rune is vastly overpowered for WvW. 60 second lifespan 50,000 health and a 600 damage per second with CC on a 60 second cooldown. You have a golem with CC that does more damage per second than any player CC out there. Imagine 20 players using constant CC that you don't have to worry about reviving because they'll just respawn automatically because you're in combat. These golems make that guild almost unstoppable. Whole map queues can't kill them. With their golems constantly respawning they have more "players" than a map queue in their zerg. Please take a serious look at either banning its use in WvW or changing it's stats massively. 3-4 minute cooldown, 30 second lifespan, 5000 to10,000 health, and no CC(in WvW). Thank you for your time.
Henge of Denravi Commander
CA/CH/HOD/AIR
Comments
Just googled it.
From the wiki:
"This rune is not available in Structured PvP."
I wonder why lol.
But hey, you have to give props for mad strats haha. Cool idea.
What server is this on?
Not turning this into a matchup thread. Support said to post it here so the Devs will see it. I removed the guild name who was using it.
Henge of Denravi Commander
CA/CH/HOD/AIR
They are too busy figuring out how to monetize alliances..sorry..
So a third the CC of a normal zerg?
gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
A disorderly group of Asura.
"The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"
This is kind of like saying "I instantly die if a whole guild uses Battle Maul on me at once". In small group fights, the rune isn't a threat since the golem can't heal, unlike players and Ranger pets, and will be dead in a few seconds.
Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 17k hours, 28k AP | ♀♥♀
Mains Mariyuuna/Auramancer(PvE) & Terakura/Healbreaker(WvW) aka Sea of Sorrows Silver Assaulter [SUKI]
No need to be best, only good and kind.
?
This response feels so out of touch, did you actually read the complaint and understand what they were saying?
very nice that some people use it. It make some uniq value for our wvw and fun for people. Should it op or no - no matter. Good, on wvw we not have fair fights anyway and we like it. It is wvw!
want solid balance ? - play chess.
The rune is fine, you're being outplayed. The golems have terrible AI, aggro forward and get quickly cleaved out by the enemy.
Do you have video of it, I would really like to see it
We fought that group yesterday till they bugged our Bay walls and left and from what i can tell, the hp of golem needs to be shaved off and cooldown increase.
Some people in this thread just make assumptions based on their knowledge of rune when haven't fought guilds using this. Few other guilds will catch up onto this and then we'll see.
Can you heal the golems
Skills have target caps. Large groups rely on distributing damage across multiple targets, thus reducing individual damage and allowing for both more offensive movement as well as support to members.
Having golems, or any type of "pet" run alongside you is like buffering the entire group by this golems life. As such a group of 20 players all running this rune are buffering their effective hit points by 20 x 50,000 = 1,000,000 life. Or expressed in a different way, if we assume a players average hit point pool in WvW is around 25k, having these golems tripples the initial EHP of the squad. That's pretty strong for a rune set.
The fact the golems can't be healed is trivial, given their internal cooldown of 1 minute. Damage soaked by a golem is not damage taken by a player which is almost equivalent to damage healed (or rather similar to barrier). Or again simply put: the rune provides a 50,000 value barrier every 1 minute, per player, on a persisting moving entity which also attacks.
Even worse, the target cap on control conditions and hard crowd control, and the priority of cleanses to players, means these golems will soak up a ton of enemy cc while not being initial targets for cleanses, which all go to players.
Not sure how your comment addresses any of these issues. This rune becomes an issue because it scales with number of players and messes with the target cap. In small scale all of these things are non issues because you likely are not hitting the target cap to begin with.
and this is great! why we reason use bad rune? I don't see main line how it can make better or opposite. This is good that people know about runes, wear, and use.
I am first 3 years not use any set runes at all, some random runes without any vision.
Hope EoD bring from new dungeons same type runes, whit dragon minions, whit birds minions, whit elephant minions, whit panda minions!
And dragon > bird, bird > elephant, elephant > panda, and panda > dragon .. oh, it so perfect that we have rune with golem mechanic!
Lets be happy that we have this fun on wvw!
want solid balance ? - play chess.
can be it dominate rune? I don't think so. But if yes - should I worry ? no. We don't cry that pdps for meta have only scholar rune, and other rune is out of meta, ..so IF we will get one meta rune on wvw - this is also OK.
want solid balance ? - play chess.
Maybe the guild likes CoE
Aurora Glade Server Leader
[VR] Violent Resolution - SoS
Who wants a golem massage?
I know I do.
Anywho, if folks were concerned about pets soaking up damage, clone spamming mesmers, necro petting zoos and rangers would be the meta. I'm fairly convinced they're not. While I haven't tested it in a while, I'm fairly certain AoE damage prioritizes players over their pets?
~ Kovu
Ranger, Necromancer, Fort Aspenwood.
Didn’t know about this rune. Gonna have to give it a try and see how much fun it is. Thanks op.
Just another WvW lifer who'll never say die... while dying again and again!
that guild that was in bay last night had at least 5 summoned golems running with them despite they have around 20 people, the overall time that the fight took is roughly around 15mins.
So that means it was summoned roughly about 15 times and imagine 5 of those golems are hitting lord while having roughly 50k HP each. And with the currently murderball meta ,the golems just there to soak damage and CC while the group just sitting back and keep on damaging the lord with not much damage done to them.
This thread reeks of someone who theorycrafted an idea, thought it was op, and never actually saw it in action before posting such an idea on forums.
If this was so Op, 50 man organized zergs would already be using it, but they aren't.
It won't work and here's why : they are extremely unreliable, unresponsive, and randomly popped.
Its summoning condition is too easily fulfilled, and it is burstable with a force of equal size before it can do any real damage.
The sudden presence of 20 of these golems is impossible to be coordinated in a proper zerg v zerg and successfully deployed en masse without some being accidentally summoned early and ruining a potential mass summoning.
Besides yu are pulling numbers off wiki page, and if yu actually fought any of these guys, yu will know that their threat range is pathetically small and an enemy force can easily manauver themselves around it with little effort.
Also a force all utilizing golem rune will result in alot of them having stat deficiencies which could lead in things like boon duration loss, survivability loss, healing power loss, which might seen negligible in a group v group setting, but if yu actually know how group v group works, people can be picked off one by one and killed VERY FAST.
But say, this is actually true and an op strategy :
Get us a video of this happening and it beating a force of the same size.
If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.
You can see it here
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV15K411P7Hw?from=search&seid=635796162028958054
https://space.bilibili.com/75649367?from=search&seid=17553345973644591226
I believe the correct solution isn't to nerf golem or pets... thats more of a quick bandaid.
Instead make AoEs prioritize players first, then pets/npcs. Or even better, make that a toggle option in the Options Menu.
If you're leading a team of 50 or more, you can try it. You need to stand at a point and move, and it works when you're entangled with each other
You need necromancer with as many minions as you can
You need to use the revenant of maklain's minstrel's to remove enemy gains with demons
Then dragonhunter, firebrand, necromancer use superior run of the golemancer; scraper uses superior run of the monk
No theory involved here. This is based on experience.
Sorry, we faced this rune exploit on reset. You have no experience with this build layout. The rune does not take away too much from the zerg. It makes it so they don't need to be concerned about AOE or any direct damage since the golems absorb most of the damage. Not all of the zerg used this rune - but a substantial number does - and tis makes it nigh impossible to defeat them.
Unfortunately for you the guild group we faced was HIGHLY coordinated knowing exactly what the rune does. so please stop making asumptions.
We fought them last night during reset - I'm fully aware of what the rune exploit can do. Sorry to burst your bubble. We didn't just pull the numbers off the wiki.
Henge of Denravi Commander
CA/CH/HOD/AIR
I don't know why people are disagreeing with this. Does no one remember the Fleshreaver meta? That got nerfed for a reason. This is the same thing, lol.
Necromancer / Engineer | Borlis Pass | Diamond Legend | [YWY] Weeping Valley //
Throw lines out? Bring a burn guard to just kill the adds? Walk sideways?
That's a lot of stats to give up for a gimmick
You don’t think the two servers who were facing off against them didn’t think about this?
It might be “working as intended” but it definitely needs to be revisited as did the other gimmicks in the past. If more guild groups start running these I can almost guarantee it won’t be healthy for the game mode.
Its a complaint about a rune in a broken game mode that needs at least dozens of other changes, and instead of listening and implementing any of those changes, the devs look at threads like this and just nerf one thing severely and time marches on.
Players may think they're helping the game like that, but its really just slowly making it worse.
Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 17k hours, 28k AP | ♀♥♀
Mains Mariyuuna/Auramancer(PvE) & Terakura/Healbreaker(WvW) aka Sea of Sorrows Silver Assaulter [SUKI]
No need to be best, only good and kind.
I mean, I agree and disagree. The problem with this is that it's a boonball guild that rolls with 70/30 support/dps and further inflates their durability with the summons from the runes that act as meat shields while also CCing. It's true that they don't generally live long, but because they're summoned on combat entry it cushions their pushes quite a lot.
Sigil Of Demons used to be Sigil Of Summoning. At 25 stacks it would summon a Fleshreaver which did pretty decent damage and had very high health. For a while this sigil was meta for almost the exact same reason. It was a pseudo-buff that soaked AOEs to make groups tankier. Rune Of The Privateer also used to be more popular when the bird it summons did more damage and had more health, although it wasn't so much favored by zergs, it was pretty popular among roamers because the bird frigging hurt.
I don't think nerfing these runes should be top priority or anything, but I do agree with the OP that ANet might want to change them. Boonballs are obnoxious enough as it is without adding a flock of minions on combat entry to soak damage and mass CC.
Necromancer / Engineer | Borlis Pass | Diamond Legend | [YWY] Weeping Valley //
Except this is not about the rune. The main issue here is the target cap which is affected by this rune.
Calling attention to things like this is important so the developers don't lose focus of which interactions are beneficial or a detriment in the game.
Similar situations have been and are present in PvE. For example:
Target caps for skills, both player and npc, are an issue in this game. As are skills or effects which affect them.
As example and already suggested: the golem spawned from this rune could simple be made a not priority target, thus making skills affect players first. That alone would change this, as I believe unintended behavior of the rune, without any "nerf" to the rune its self.
As far as the game mode being broken: I don't support the argument that something being in a bad shape, if one would agree to your interpretation, means less attention is the way to go. Obviously this thread, if read by a developer, should be put into context of their next balance approach (aka consider target caps) and not seen as a singular item to change (unless the issue in question is highly disturbing and/or game breaking, which this rune is not, yet).
Back to the future? welcome on 2014?
want solid balance ? - play chess.
ofc great it is it, but it is not solid. Ok, anyway, lets think that this is it is. So why it not good for wvw?? For me it is perfect chooose and nice one more mechanic. Or you suggest give all same amulets and 4 runes choose as in spvp ??
so great. Or we should ask also remove necro for shroud, fb for stab, and others ??
yes, bird nerf was big fail my opinion.
why some people think that MASS CC and mass condi spam is ok and valid mode? put aoe rings and be happy is true wvw? May be opposite we should break this aoe skill spam and make wvw more targertable?
want solid balance ? - play chess.
You want build-variety, but it should not have any impact.
so we already can choose any biudl on wvw. This is nice place wihtout 4 amulet choose
everyone thing can impact, dominate, be useless, or op. It is nor make sense. Let make expamle: buff necro skill 4x. It is impact? yes and no . It is fun ? yes. So have some dominant item is ok. And no any reason use it if you don't want. This is part of freedom on wvw .
want solid balance ? - play chess.
It's not 2014. It's the latest thing. At the end of October, a very important GVG event was held. All the teams in the competition used the superior run of the golemancer,Therefore, it is necessary to change the superior run of the golemancer
life is tough when you get bullied in EU and have to come to NA and try and cheese and think your the kitten.
Life is tougher for them when no one wants to fight them and they have to change guilds tag to fool pugs into fighting them.
in the meantime use burn guards to take down the goleys
te lazla otstara.
fingers crossed meta ~
That does sound a pretty strong in big groups. Hopefully we get a balance patch soon, It's been way too long.
Haha. Just this week I realised this Rune is pretty good and was gathering The dungeon tokens to test it on my staff thief. Cat is out of the bag already. Tried to create a creative guild to test these kind of things but failed so props to these guys for not just dps meter humping
What people dont realise is that the 60k HP HP Golem can absorb full burst from 3 people meaning those people will hit 4 people instead of 5. And if you add The fact that all you lose is basically 5% damage scholar bonus that isnt high upkeep in fights where it matters while getting ton of CC and less mantras wasted, the golemancer runes are taking the top spot as dps runes alongside speed ones. One reducing targets Enemy hits, another increasing ones you do
Ri Ba - Charr of logic
~Key to fixing WvW with minimal effort resides in my post history~
This rune has changed little the past 8 years, funny how now it is op? Have some fun theorizing a counter at least, siege obviously would do wonders as would condi, since cleanses would prioritize players over cleansing their golems.
Heibi we have been seeing them (the group you mentioned) quite a bit for the last few weeks and 100% agree with your analysis. Hopefully Anet does something soon.
It is just that the golem has stayed the same while every other skill got bad and the rune is actually competitive statwise even without the golem now. For example 5% damage from scholar runes for like 10 players in your squad with like 60% upkeep is nothing compared to having army of golems soaking 20% of enemy damage, hindering enemy vision and AoE ccing stuff.
Lets be frank, no1 even knew the golem had 50k hp until recently.
Ri Ba - Charr of logic
~Key to fixing WvW with minimal effort resides in my post history~
Right, which part of the changes in the wiki did you exactly miss?
Was it the rework in 2014 which gave the golem a 50% change to spawn? Or was it the rework in 2018 which made the spawn 100% but on a 1 minute timer.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Golemancer
You could at least fact check the stuff you mention, especially when it's all in the wiki of the rune. Your claim that the rune changed little in 8 years is strait up false (with the essential change that makes the golem spawn guaranteed on fight engage being a major change). Your inability to put the value of such a rune into context of other balance changes does the rest.
Say for example a rework to hard cc skills, removing all damage from them, thus making any additional targets excellent at soaking cc skills while taking almost no damage. Hmmm come to think of it, what exactly did the last big balance patch do? Exactly.
Awwww. No thanks. Don't want them, don't need that crutch. They will be nerfed with that 300 sec CD soon enough.
I am not about video. Some people and guidl used it on 2014 , it was some dominant value for unpredictable .. but after some time was check that it no so cool lif people ready for this.
want solid balance ? - play chess.
may be opposite make SC 10 second, and let is spam like clones .. ah .. lol, How will that people scared if see mesmer blob who spam clones ?
what will be happen if 20-30 handled - skilled ppl will take mesmers ? how much cry we will see ?
wvw if place where 2 kill 4, and someone one kill these 2 .. And class, rune, and any build is not main detail. If for someone AOE spam come not success this is mean that time to changes is come, but not cry about balance ..
want solid balance ? - play chess.
maybe if you know the group is going to use this, pull back and set up a few ballistas:-)
Sounds like someone is copying UNIV's theme meme build. The real question though: are they also using the golem finisher?
It is not a meme in UNIV, it is life.
~ Kovu
Ranger, Necromancer, Fort Aspenwood.
Leave it, atleast it brings something different to the table. As in, someone actually used their head to devise it, and convinced others to go along. That's worth acknowledging.
Easy counter : These golems have no CC bars and are unlikely to benefit from any stab or retal. Cheap field CC will make chunks of metals out of them